Court Transcript: Illegal video of November 7, 1984






CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY, MISSION OF DAVIS, a non-profit California corporation, doing business in Oregon; CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA, a California corporation, doing business in Oregon; and L. RON HUBBARD,


No. A7704-05184


April 10, 1985

(Following proceedings held in the presence of the jury.)

THE COURT: Good morning. You are about to view two videotapes. They are giong to take about an hour and forty-eight minutes, I believe. They are being offered for a limited purpose. They are being offered to show the bias, if any of Mr. Armstrong against the defendant. That’s the purpose for this. Do you understand that? Okay.

(Videotaped recording played. Following is a transcript of meeting in Griffith Park between Joey and Gerald Armstrong, November 7, 1984.)1

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good place.

MR. JOEY: Yeah, I think so. You like it?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, fine.

MR. JOEY: (Inaudible.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. (Inaudible.)

MR. JOEY: Been awhile. Been awhile.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4459

MR. ARMSTRONG: Ah, I have to leave by 2:30 so we have got that long.

MR. JOEY: Wow.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay? That’s okay.

MR. JOEY: We’ve got a lot of ground to cover. That’s okay. We’ll get there.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s okay. We should be able to cover everything really quick.

MR. JOEY: Yeah. Okay, First (inaudible) Kind of like dealing directly now and I’m going to give you what I’ve got and I’ll get what you’ve got and take everything back to the committee so everyone’s in agreement and everyone knows everything.


MR. JOEY: Sound good with you?


MR. JOEY: Okay. I’ve got a bunch of stuff that you requested, so we can go over that.


MR. JOEY: Compiling a little agenda [hear/here] and you had a message for me. (Inaudible question.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, I had — I just more or less put together our perspective on this whole

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4460

thing because it’s been going on (inaudible).

MR. JOEY: What?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Verbally in any case let’s go over that now. This is Mike’s perspective. He sees the whole thing —

MR. JOEY: Mike and you went over this?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, this is how Mike sees the legal battle is going. What he sees, there’s no other way. Like, it is going to happen sooner or later, you know, ’cause there’s, like, a last skirmish going on and that’s about it.

MR. JOEY: You think it’s going to be wrapped up pretty as soon, you mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Well, no one really is getting too concerned about it anymore. Their credibility’s shot in all quarters. There’s no — There is no credibility left. There’s — They’re simply being bled by some unscrupulous attorneys. That’s all that remains. However, about the details, ah, his feeling is that a couple — handful of right people with affidavits can end it, just end the whole damned thing.

MR. JOEY: Wow.

MR. ARMSTRONG: He feels (inaudible) and all the things that are going on, you know, it will take

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4461

a little PR to do it. But it takes someone standing up and saying, “Hey, listen, troops,” you know, “here’s what’s going on,” He sees it as that. But he remains absolutely confident about Canada. I don’t know what the latest you have on Canada, but yesterday and today, I guess it was criminal contempt that they brought against the prosecutor —

MR. JOEY: Right. I hadn’t heard how it came out.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Casey Hill. I don’t know on that. You know, it’s sort of last brush fire.

MR. JOEY: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It’s that kind of a thing. They say they’ve got such a tight case, they’ve twenty-nine people they’re going to indict, and then will begin the warrants — warrants. They’re going to have them served over here. They’re going to have them picked up over here. You know, they’ll be running — the Feds, whoever is deligated, whoever accepts the hat, as soon as they’re — they have a treaty, obviously. It’s just got to be a Mo and Jane thing the locals —

MR. JOEY: An extradition.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. The US authorities will serve these people and pick them up, and when

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4462

they pick them up, they’ve got to — they take them away and do whatever they do; fingerprint them if it’s a criminal thing. And at that time they’ve either got to go into hiding, which — likely, I really don’t know. You probably have all the news and I’m just boring you to tears. And I have a lot of questions. If you have questions of me I can answer, I can answer them.

MR. JOEY: Let’s — That’s pretty much what the scoop is. Let’s just go through them briefly (inaudible). I’m amassing all these puny, futile campaign effort to regroup.

MR. ARMSTRONG: This is a deletion mark, so you have to delete. Delete campaign. Move on to the mind stretch group.

MR. JOEY: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: This have simply is just — I see — this just lays down, in my opinion, all the things that are going on, how irrevocable the whole thing is and, you know, it’s kind of time to act. But again, you people probably stay more up-to-date on the legal — actual events than I do. But never before has there been cases that have had to come to trial within the next year; there’s just shitloads of them.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4463

MR. JOEY: Okay.


MR. JOEY: Good enough. Let’s go over this stuff, yeah?

MR. ARMSTRONG: What a nice folder.

MR. JOEY: This is the thing that got passed out at that big event. You heard of that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, the ah —

MR. JOEY: You wanted I HELP stuff.


MR. JOEY: And I have a whole bunch of documents here and samples of different kinds. I can give you these.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. This ah — like a did in the candy shop.

MR. JOEY: I hope I got what you wanted here.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, so far we’re looking great.

MR. JOEY: Okay. You want to take a look at them. I haven’t really studied them closedly, but maybe I can help you answer any questions.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, I won’t waste your time right now with going over all of this, because I know as I go through it and study it and study the legalese, I’m going to have a lot of questions, Mikes going to have a lot of questions. Okay?

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4464

MR. JOEY: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: To ask the questions at this point before I digest this stuff, it doesn’t make any sense to me.

MR. JOEY: Great, now —


MR. JOEY: — I need to know, like, what your strategy is regarding these type of things and what we are looking at doing.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, I got a view, of course, from you, of course, that someone at least considered that I HELP was, you know, their Achilles heel, as it were. So we thought, “Shit, shouldn’t I get some I HELP materials?” So hence I asked. Now issues, I wanted to know, number one, how they’re run off, what the type face is like. Are these like this? You know —

MR. JOEY: These are the real McCoys.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You see, because I think that during a part of this, we can simply create these. You know, I can create documents with relative ease, you know; I did it for a living.

MR. JOEY: Great. So what kind of stuff are we going to want to create and who’s going to get it?

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4465

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s what we need to talk about.

MR. JOEY: Yeah. That’s what I want to know. What’s the input from Michael on it? How’s it going to tie in with what he’s doing and what the other people are doing and —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s what we need to get.

MR. JOEY: — and what do the agencies want on this?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Well, the agencies have asked for some specific things; that’s all they’ve asked for. Now —

MR. JOEY: Let me take notes. What have they asked for?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, they’ve asked for specifically, now, some of the things you’ve already asked for and I’ve already passed on. The names that they mentioned: Marlowe, Reynolds, Doug Hay — we talked —

MR. JOEY: Now, who wanted this?


MR. JOEY: Got it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Now, do you want a number in CID?

MR. JOEY: Yeah.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4466

MR. ARMSTRONG: Your people should call. Any problems, just call this guy; he’s, in my opinion, a pretty straight guy.

MR. JOEY: He knows about the Loyalists, what we’re doing, stuff like that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Basically, yeah.

MR. JOEY: What exactly have you told him and what did he say?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’ve told him — well, he feels that — he keeps saying, “When are these guys going to talk to me? I’ll meet under any circumstances.”

MR. JOEY: Wow.

MR. ARMSTRONG: He wants to talk. You know, wait a — let me get — “Al Lipkin, 213-6 88-4260.

At night” — (Inaudible.)

This is really great. How far is the track? Is it a long thing?

MR. JOEY: I think — (inaudible.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: “At night, 688-4151.” I believe that’s —

MR. JOEY: That’s his home?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t think so. I believe that’s how —

MR. JOEY: This is CID?

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4467

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I believe that’s how he can be reached, I’m taking a fuck of a chance doing this; so are you. But there’s a lot of —

MR. JOEY: What does he need from me? What does he want? Or is it just backup for what I need?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, it ties in — he would like to get everyone to talk so that they can move, but — but at the same time, I always say to him, “Listen, your putting us in an uncomfortable situation. If your telling me you haven’t got enough to move right now, and I’m giving you the testimony, then I’m a marked man if you guys back off the investigation.”

He said — The reason I do that is not because I’m particularly paranoid but because I’m searching for what’s going on in their skull. He assured me the investigation is going forward, “We’ve got enough; that’s the way the government works.”

MR. JOEY: Listen, the bottom line here — I’m not aware of any crime the Church is committing right now. We’ve looked — I mean, like, realistically.

MR. ARMSTRONG: How much are they paying PI’s? Illegal expenditures. Illegal expenditures.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4468

MR. JOEY: Right. We’ve looked at that. We talked about that at the last meeting, but —


MR. JOEY: I mean — These people have apparently corporate power to spend this money. I don’t see how that’s breaking the law. We’re not talking what they were doing in D.C.

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Illegal expenditures. You see, it’s kind of like — Yeah, these people have the power; that’s it, that’s the whole thing. They’ve that power and they’re abusing it, so that’s why we’re saying, “Enough.” And that’s why we have this lawsuit.

See, all it has to do with is money. It has nothing to do with “Did they shoot Billy Joe?” No, it’s, “Who’s using the funds of a” — What’s the word they use? — “a charitable corporation?” You guys are a charitable corporation; right? Who’s using the funds of a charitable corporation to — what? — entrap, to destroy someone’s reputation?

MR. JOEY: How are they doing it?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Look at freedom, look at the whole Flynn escapade. That’s it. That’s the key. They overstepped the fucking bounds. They don’t have any proof. So you — they don’t have any

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4469

proof. Do they?

MR. JOEY: Well, my understanding is when they do these freedom things, they’ve got interviews and they got all of this. There’s no breaking and entering going on, there’s nothing like that going on. (Inaudible). The thing is —

MR. ARMSTRONG: How much have the PI’s been paid?

MR. JOEY: I imagine lots.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You see, that’s the whole point.

MR. JOEY: I mean for the last number of years, everything that these guys do are run by attorneys. I mean, they’ve got banks of attorneys checking all the laws, all of this, what we’re talking about, you know, basically. They’re not breaking the law because they’ve the attorneys checking everything. Before these Freedoms go out, they check the law of libel, the law of this, that. You know what I mean.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I understand.

MR. JOEY: So it’s like we get into areas of law I don’t — and the committee, if I can say, from our end, we don’t see that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You don’t see what?

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4470

MR. JOEY: Blatant criminality.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I understand. It’s all done — it’s anyway — it’s just — I understand your question. I don’t see it as a problem like you see it as a problem. I see simply that an organization cannot do that. You cannot simply take people’s money and use it to destroy someone. It just doesn’t wash. You can’t say, “I’m a Church and,” you know, “let’s go kill him.” You can’t. Anyway, that’s the whole — I understand what you’re saying and I’ll send it back down the lines.

MR. JOEY: Yes. You tell Michael that’s what we’re sitting with. We don’t see it and we can’t see how that’s going to go if it’s drilled in. Ever since the raid, no illegalities, no illegalities, attorneys, attorneys, attorneys, and they say, you know —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Where’s the money? Do you guys know where — how much money has gone to the attorneys? For what? They’re fucking bleeding you — bleeding you. Surely the congregation has the opportunity to stand up and say — and say, “It’s our fucking Church and our money.” Otherwise, your saying, “Well, shit, it’s totally legal.” Your saying it’s totally legal. “Yeah, we can buy a

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4471

house of prostitution in Nevada; it’s legal, but you can’t use the Church bucks for that, asshole.” That’s the way we see it, you know. It’s kind of, like, illegal. Fuck, if I — It’s the logic. That kind of the way — and I think the complaint was tailored in that way, wasn’t it? — didn’t go into, like the heavy crimes. Just this much money has been re these things.

MR. JOEY: The suit the Loyalists had filed —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. You guys have information, I understand, regarding the payment of money down in Florida — right? — to someone. Okay they weren’t planting drugs and hookers on old Judge Frisbie, but they sure did pay for the goddamned boat, they paid the PI’s and they made some recordings; am I correct?

MR. JOEY: I don’t remember that. They do pay PI’s lots.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. That’s the whole thing. Enough.

MR. JOEY: (Inaudible.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: But the whole point is, these guys are being indicted. You see, you can’t —

MR. JOEY: What are they being indicted on?

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4472


MR. JOEY: What are they being indicted on?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, probably fraud. And they’re about to get Hubbard, probably, on tax court fraud, not paying his taxes, failure to file a W2, whatever it is. I don’t know.

MR. JOEY: See, what doesn’t fit in our mind is, like, you know, Hubbard has got attorneys, tax attorneys, he’s had for years, and he has all these attorneys to make sure —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know what? You know what? This is the way it is. It took a long — kind of a long time to learn, you know. I could be all wet. Maybe it will never go. All those things could happen. But there’s a big difference between law and justice, and they’re always in the law. But it’s not just — you know, you can do things within the law, but they’re not just — you know —

MR. JOEY: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Their PI’s were always in the law. He was always in the law; right?

MR. JOEY: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Except G. Armstrong is going to get a fucking big award because they did it, because you just don’t harass people that way. You

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4473

— You don’t take Joe Citizen, who’s got zero money, you’ve just robbed him — and then you turn the weight of that organization with a bunch of fucking meatball PI’s against him, you know.

MR. JOEY: I got it. Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It’s law and justice. And we’re saying, “Fuck it; it’s unjust.” And that’s what I think. Somebody’s got to stand up. It doesn’t really matter. Anyway, I think the swap of information is very vital and I think if we keep going along, you know, the more things happen, the more there is — the more we’re in control of this whole damn thing. Because the fact is, we’re out here and they can’t hear this shit. They gotta hide. Miscavage is hiding; right? You don’t see the fucker around. So now you’ve got —

MR. JOEY: Well, your not hiding.


MR. JOEY: Your not hiding.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Fuck, no. And —

MR. JOEY: Your not afraid, are you?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No, And that’s why I’m in a fucking stronger position than they are.

MR. JOEY: How’s that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Why, I’ll bring them to their

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4474


MR. JOEY: What do you think is going to happen?

MR. ARMSTRONG: You mean, what’s my prediction?

MR. JOEY: Yeah, what’s your prediction? And how —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That they’re going to lose in a whole bunch of jurisdictions. They’re going to lose. They’re going to lose. There are going to lose. And they’re going to start losing — 1985. They only even have to lose one, and attorneys all over the country are going to jump on the fucking bandwagon. And watch, you know, all of a sudden you’ve got precedents being established which are incredible. The organization continues on with its kind of Band-Aid philosophy. Slap a Band-Aid on. Aw, shit, rip it off and slap another Band-Aid on. Meanwhile, life happens to be marching by and they put all the Band-Aids on about all the lawsuits they can, and it’s coming to trial. They took a bath in Armstrong. They took a bath over in the UK. They took a bath in the tax case. They’re about to get burned in Samuels because they’re not going to be allowed to intervene. And when that happens,

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4475

Hubbard’s going to be defaulted, and pretty soon you’ll find Martin Samuels selling you Dianetics books because he’ll own the copyright because it’s already been adjudicated that the organization is L. Ron Hubbard’s alter-ego, in Armstrong. And they’re equilaterally stopped from proceeding, even on that issue. Oh, they’ll bob and weave for awhile, but they’re going to get slapped down.

Pretty soon, Tamimi’s going to be extradited. Now, Tamimi, himself, of course, is an interesting paradox. You’d think this guy has some substance, and yet here’s this — here’s this —

THE COURT: Here is where we lost some sound for about two minutes, I think.

(Tape became silent but picture reception continued. Sound was lost at 19:45 and resumed at 21:45.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: — again, I don’t know your people’s position in the organization, but I see that policy is the thing that is handled at the top. So if someone wants to change policy, if you see a conflict in policy, you can write up a CSW to change the policy and that policy goes up lines. I assume you can still do that in the organization because there’s policy to cover it.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4476

MR. JOEY: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right? So you originate policy and in the CSW, put all the relevant information. You retain the CSW and you send up the — the proposal to the people up top. The people up top are going to go whatever they do — depends on what you intended when you submitted the issue.

MR. JOEY: So you can affect attorneys and —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You can affect the whole damn thing. You can cause a policy change. For example, regarding the use of PI’s, there’s a — Hubbard says in his old issue, “Use our own people; don’t use outside people.” Well, that’s going to hurt. That’s going to trap Hubbard, you know. So, in fact, we have to change that policy. And you can put in your CSW the risks that are being run. For example, if it’s — anyway, you can say — and this is a problem that they run into, the PI’s overstep their bounds — right? — and they know it.

MR. JOEY: I don’t know that. I mean, legally, I never — it’s like, you know, attorneys —

MR. ARMSTRONG: See, again, I can’t tell where you people are positioning to know what in the organization. You know where I’m coming from. In

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4477

other words, you’re not going to have, for lack of any other post, the dishwasher originating issues regarding PI’s.

MR. JOEY: I want to give you the really good news. Are you ready for this? You’re not talking dishwasher, we’re not talking dishwasher.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Operation Long Prong?

MR. JOEY: Two members of the Board of Directors. Closed.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Closed. Holy — You can do one — you’ve got two, two board members? Have they already signed up undated resignations?

MR. JOEY: I’m sure that’s standard.

MR. ARMSTRONG: But they can invalidate them. Let me — Let me make a note of that. Okay? Because I’ll ask Mike on that. It’s a legal point. Okay.

MR. JOEY: So we got these and we got ideas on how to change them.

MR. ARMSTRONG: They’re just a lot of ways I think that you can —

MR. JOEY: Colors and stuff.


MR. JOEY: You know how to do all that. Change them and —

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4478

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think that it is possible. I think a lot of things can be done. I don’t propose to. I can’t go within a mile of the organization, obviously, so I can’t be stuffing things into their comm basket.

MR. JOEY: Oh, Yeah. There will be helpers involved. I want to show you this thing. Now, this was from the I HELP —


MR. JOEY: — and got shredded and we put it together.

MR. JOEY: You know who’s handwriting that is?

MR. JOEY: No. Anyway (inaudible) channel all money flows, I HELP, thereby, dada, and it’s talking about the money and I HELP. But why I keep bringing up the legal thing, there’s a thing here, handling something, each country’s laws, so it looks like it’s going to be run by attorneys. You know what I mean. I don’t want to give that up. It’s not broad — you can look at it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What’s the date on it, do you know?

MR. JOEY: It’s new. 6 September —

MR. ARMSTRONG: — ’84. So I HELP is a thing

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4479

that’s going on.

MR. JOEY: The only thing I can give you, it gives you what the initials stand for, something about counseling or something.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Fine. Fine.

MR. JOEY: Don’t know whose that is?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Well, we won’t worry about that right now.

MR. JOEY: You want to look at anything on that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: What we may be able to do is paste this down and then photocopy it again. If we could do it real well, we could turn it into a natural rather than a — you know what I mean? Glue the sucker really well and rephotocopy it — and hopefully these are never picked up — and then join the whole thing back together, just sort of crimp it a little bit because the scorching has turned the edges up. Looks real good. I don’t understand it all, yet (inaudible).

How do your people feel about — about the organization, like where they’re at? Like, do they feel they’re going to weather this storm? Like they’re getting more powerful? Or that, you know, they’re so firmly entrenched that only this plan of

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4480

attrition is going to at all move things along?

MR. JOEY: Well, we’re looking very seriously at actually filing that suit. And one of the things we want back from Michael is what the timing of that should be, see. We have it working in both directions. (Inaudible.)

Now, I’ll give you this whole thing, all I’ve got here, the pledge. You wanted the pledge; right?


Who are these people? David Miscavage? Vicki Aznaran? Heber Jentsch?

MR. JOEY: Here’s a policy letter. I want you to do something with policy letters.


MR. JOEY: The whole thing was passed out. That’s the name of the group and their address and their magazine. They’ve all these commendations and things that Hubbard’s gotten, certificates, international who’s who in lecturing. What do you think about all this?

MR. ARMSTRONG: He’s gotta go down in history as the greatest con man of all time. What fraud.

MR. JOEY: What do you want to have happen to him?

MR. ARMSTRONG: To have happen to him, I’d

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4481

like to talk to him.

MR. JOEY: Is that all?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, I’d like to end the madness. But, you know, I don’t have any problem — I would like to talk to him. I’d even like to tape the conversation. I think that probably for the first time I would be able to talk to the old fart. “Ron, Ron, where did you go wrong?”

MR. JOEY: From your end, where do you — what do you want?

MR. ARMSTRONG: What do I want you guys to do?

MR. JOEY: No, wait. Just look at purposes here for a second.


MR. JOEY: What’s your —

MR. ARMSTRONG: My purpose?

MR. JOEY: Yeah. For the Church.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, my purpose initially is global settlement; I want that, I’ve done this shit now for going on three years, and even longer before that when I was inside, such a crusader, rabbit kind of thing, and it’s a pain in the ass. And it just seems so stupid to me, and I would like to end it before some asshole goes off his fucking rocker and

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4482

starts shooting people, which I think they’re capable of. They’re pretty crazy guys. Peterson is a psycho. Their attorney, Peterson, is a fucking psycho.

MR. JOEY: Do you think the organization’s psycho?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, I’ll tell you, it is acting like a psychotic organization, you know, when we’re doing this, skulking around, meeting and driving around in the fucking — that’s crazy. I mean, okay, and we can play the game but, god, to live that way, professing to be a Church, it’s just so much madness. The world is not — it just isn’t constructed that way.

They’ve created enemies in there and they’re not there, so I — I’d like that to happen initially. I’d like to achieve a global settlement so that I don’t have to continue on, because one thing they have to know is, I’m not going away. They say they’re not and I think there’s a growing number on the other side who are not, and they’re looking in a worse and worse position all the time. All these cases are marching on and on and they’ve bobbed and weaved, and they’ve manipulated and played with the law and spent billions of dollars,

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4483

and things are marching on. I don’t —

MR. JOEY: So no real animosity.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You mean toward anyone?

MR. JOEY: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Aw, to the contrary. I mean, I’m meeting here with you, of course; you’re not exactly what I would call a Scientologist. Scientologists sort of tend to think with their ass. You know, it’s just a pain in the butt, to be concerned about these guys and to think, you know, that they’re going to try to fuck my life over every chance they get. And I think that, you know, they happen to be a bunch of terrorists who walked into my purview and I kind of think that you sort of have to stand up. I’m not saying incarcerate them or slap — they need to be slapped down, is what they need. They need to be fucking held in check. Not even the biggest corporate giant in the world abuses the law like these assholes. It’s just a — And they’re unscrupulous because they’re so fucking right about everything, I mean, like — Okay.

MR. JOEY: Right. One thing I got to say. I don’t see like the actual breaking of the law where your talking, I mean we get into other areas —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, I know what you mean.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4484

MR. JOEY: You do understand that? I mean, like I think —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean the whole thing —

MR. JOEY: I mean they got the lawyers. I mean deep down inside, they must know — can’t see —

MR. ARMSTRONG: The what?

MR. JOEY: The break in the law. I mean, they have the attorneys to check it. You know? So they’re going by the book, the letter of the law.

MR. ARMSTRONG: They had attorneys — They’ve had attorneys check everything. They had attorneys in the Armstrong case. They took a bath. Their attorneys are giving them bad advice; that’s the reality. Hubbard’s attorneys are giving him piss poor advice. Jesus, he keeps getting more lawsuits and gets closer to the brink every day. They’re just sucking him in. That’s the thing. To say, “Well, it’s legal because the at” — horse shit.

MR. JOEY: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Attorneys are a bunch of crooks.

MR. JOEY: Okay. Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Anyway, that’s only for —

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4485

MR. JOEY: Let’s move on.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Anyway, that’s only the mentality, the mind sit, that you guys can have. You can take that — You can take that viewpoint rather than, shit, they checked with the attorney. You know what I mean? One just says, “Bullshit, this is a fucking unjust,” and take a stand and back the fuckers down. And the other one is —

MR. JOEY: Unfortunately, maybe unjust has nothing to do with the letter of the law.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, it has everything. That is what its all about. Right in front of all the buildings is this blind lady with all the goddamned scales. That’s what it’s all about. Okay, okay.

MR. JOEY: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: God, how’d I do?

MR. JOEY: Philosophywise —

MR. ARMSTRONG: As an orator, shall we say. I got to ask some questions. Doug Hay?

MR. JOEY: Haven’t found that yet.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Do you know where Marlowe and Reynolds are?

MR. JOEY: I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Has there been any high-level defections? Any defections recently that they’re

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4486

concerned about?

MR. JOEY: Not that I’m aware of.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you have anyone out at Gilman?

MR. JOEY: We have someone that goes there quite regularly.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know where Miscavage hangs out?

MR. JOEY: He appears and disappears. I mean, he can bore we start, he can be around the Complex.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Is he often — Do you know what he drives?


MR. ARMSTRONG: Can you make a note of that? Find out what they all drive. You need — Get me —

MR. JOEY: What’s the purpose of this? Is this to serve them?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, serve them is one thing, but maybe get them picked up. I don’t — You know, it’s kinds of like — you know, we need this flow of data going back and forth; it has to happen. And I think that the Feds are going to be real pleased with the fact that it’s happening and I think that they’ll reciprocate.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4487

MR. JOEY: Great. Great. So what agencies know about us and what do they want and —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Justice Department, FBI —

MR. JOEY: You talk to these guys?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I do. Yeah.

MR. JOEY: Like who in Justice? Is there a number I can call there?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Richard Greenberg. I gave you that one, I think. He’s the guy you should call. I’ll give you that number. He’s in D.C.

Did the LA FBI case get dismissed?

MR. JOEY: (Inaudible.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Uh, 202-633-3368. I gave you one for Tom Doughty, FBI in D.C.

MR. JOEY: What’s his name again?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Tom. Thomas D. Doughty, D-o-u-g-h-t-y, 202-324-4532. I gave you CID. There’s another guy in CID —

MR. JOEY: Yeah. Al Lipkin.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Al Ristuctia, R-i-s-t-u-c-t-i-a.

MR. JOEY: Is this Al, too?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Albert, yeah. 688-4261. It may be the same as the other one I gave you, I’m not sure. Al Lipkin? No the other one is sixty, okay?

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4488

MR. JOEY: Canada.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, in Canada, you know, they have that thing “Project 20.” The guy I’ve talked to a lot is Al Ciampini, 416-965-6138.

MR. JOEY: Who was he with, again?

MR. ARMSTRONG: He’s just the Ontario Provincial Police. Michael — Mike also thinks that the Florida Attorney General is going to bring some charges. The — you know, the whole freedom thing. Mike got an indication from — did I give you the name of the guy who’s handling that investigation?


MR. ARMSTRONG: The Tamimi investigation? Let’s see — Brackett Denniston. His first name is Brackett; last name is Denniston, D-e-n-n-i-s-t-o-n, and he’s (617)223-2280. He’s the Assistant U.S. Attorney involved in the Tamimi thing. And his last indication to Mike was: it is clear that an attempt to completely ruin someone’s name with false information is a crime.

MR. JOEY: Got it. Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So all you have to do is, again, take that viewpoint: “It’s a crime,” never been proven.

MR. JOEY: So what do these — what’s justice

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4489

need from Loyalists, FBI, CID, how —

MR. ARMSTRONG: They’d like to talk to whoever knows about — I’ll tell you who wants to talk to you is CID. CID are the guys. That’s the most likely — absolutely the most likely place in which the whole thing will happen. Canada, you know, they’re a little far away; they’re going to move first. And perhaps it is an embarrassment to the rest of the U.S. people that the Canadians scooped them on the thing. You know, if everything goes right with the Canadians, they have to move by December 2nd. That’s the cutoff date. If they don’t by December 2nd, then that’s all over, they give back the Toronto docs and —

MR. JOEY: So what do they want from us?

MR. ARMSTRONG: They want to talk to you people. They want — yeah, there’s two things. Number one, you guys should, I think, make plans, at least, in the event that the whole thing is blown, someone breaks or whatever, exactly how to handle it, because, you know, you can simply — no one needs to be held. Don’t go for it. Just walk out the door. And I don’t know if they’d be stupid enough to try to fuck you over by holding you; maybe, but I doubt it.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4490

MR. JOEY: I was looking at all this.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, anyway, just be aware of that possibility. And I think that —

MR. JOEY: That — that if I went down and talked to him — I wouldn’t go there, first of all —


MR. JOEY: Too many Scientologists around.

MR. ARMSTRONG: No, I wouldn’t say go there. Call him and make arrangements so that he can talk to you people. That’s what makes sense. And it makes sense that —

MR. JOEY: Think he might arrest me?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Him? For what? Oh, no, no.

MR. JOEY: Church of Scientology —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, no, that he —

MR. JOEY: They know where I’m coming from?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, you know what would make sense? It would make sense in my opinion to make the contact through me so that he knows that you are part of the people that I’ve talked about. That makes sense. That would save you any problem in terms of identification because they are leery of entrapment.

MR. JOEY: Great. Great. One of the things

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4491

I want to ask, Lyman Spurlock —


MR. JOEY: — and Carol? I told you about Carol?


MR. JOEY: Oh, good looking girl. Got a plan on that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, is — is Carol the name of the girl?

MR. JOEY: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: The name of your girl? Oh, Carol. I — see, Carol is his wife’s name, but they’ve had such a rocky marriage, it’s been like off-and-on divorce as long as I’ve known the guy since ’77, so I just thought he’s a possibility. I didn’t know Carol, but thanks anyway. No, he told me that a real good looker I thought, God, this is, you know, an absolutely perfect opportunity because I think that — that — the way to the man’s mind is through his cock. And — and those people especially. I mean, none of the people in WDC are — are — you know, ASI, none of them have, like, a lot of brain power. You know what I mean. They’re not intellectual giants. And they definitely had rather, shall we say, Philistine tastes. And, you

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4492

know, there are a lot of good looking women with Philistine tastes, if you know what I mean. It’s a possibility.

MR. ARMSTRONG : You were going to say something? Did it happen?

MR. JOEY: No. So we say, you know, if he gets set up with her —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, if she’s a good actress. You know, I was wondering about the E-Meter today. You know, it seems to me that the E-Meter reads if you don’t know your story real well. If you’ve got your stories down, I don’t think there will be any problem. And I think she — I mean, I would like to have the opportunity to sort of (inaudible) some of this off. I just think you guys — I don’t know if it’s been tried before, but there’s definitely a way to get to the top. That’s been known in high political circles for a number of centuries. That could be a lot of fun.

MR. JOEY: What time do you have to leave?


MR. JOEY: You don’t —

MR. ARMSTRONG: What else? Do you have some specific questions?

MR. JOEY: Yeah, a couple of things. You can

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4493

meet the financier if you like. She’s here in town for, like, a day or so. You can go over and meet her, if you like to do that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Someone is financing for you?

MR. JOEY: We’ve got this girl that Dan told you about.


MR. JOEY: She’s here and she’d like to meet you just to see if your a real person.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Does she want to see me with Dan?

MR. JOEY: No. I can take you over there.


MR. JOEY: We can do that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: When — give me a —

MR. JOEY: We can do it right now.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, oh, no. No. I can’t right now.


MR. ARMSTRONG: I need — I need a little time, usually. See, when you called today, and, it was fine — everything worked out fine. I have my wife at work; got to pick her up at four. We only have the one car as yet so we kind of have to jockey it around. But normally, like a day in advance, I

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4494

can be anywhere at any time. I don’t have a job. Hell, I just —

MR. JOEY: Great. I need to hear back from Michael on the timing of the suit. And you had one other question. You wrote one other question down tonight.


MR. JOEY: I got the samples and stuff like that.


MR. JOEY: Can I hear back from him, like now? Can we call him on a pay phone or something?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, shit. I doubt — now’s a real bad time. See, it’s 5:30 in Boston and he’ll be out of the office and wouldn’t be home yet. Are you following me?

MR. JOEY: It’s not worth a shot?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t. I think we’d waste our time trying to locate him somewhere.

MR. JOEY: You can call him, then run it by him and then get back to me.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I got to see Dan tomorrow on some matters — on some literary matters.

MR. JOEY: All right. All right. Now, did

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4495

Michael have any more messages for us, looking at what kind of direction to move in and any other questions he had?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, you know, things — oh, I know. He’s going to have a question: is she going to back it? Is she going to come up with some bucks so that —

MR. JOEY: Looks really strong.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Great. I think it’s great. By the way, she — she’s into publishing, did you know that?

MR. JOEY: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So if we saw her, I have some art work —

MR. JOEY: Yeah, definitely bring it. Definitely bring it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Some of which you have there.

MR. JOEY: Yeah. I’ll show her the sample.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What else? I think that’s it. I would like —

MR. JOEY: All right. What about Monday?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’ll get those things from him. Do you want me to leave answers with Dan tomorrow?

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4496

MR. JOEY: Yeah, that’ll be good.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Or I’ll track them down somehow, either tonight or first thing in the morning.

MR. JOEY: If I can get away from another meeting, maybe we’ll do that. Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m going to see him tomorrow. Maybe we can set something up for Friday.

MR. JOEY: If I call you tonight, that’ll mean I’ll take it. If not —


MR. JOEY: I think I’d rather take it myself.


MR. JOEY: She’s going to run by the IHELP docs, the policy letters, the suit —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yep. Oh, do you guys know about Homer Shomer’s suit?

MR. JOEY: The Committee may; I’m not familiar with it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. We think that that’s quite important. You know, he had sued — he had sued, and I wrote it in there who he had served, and ASI’s been served; it’s very significant because it’s using unfair — unfair work or labor practices against a profit corporation. Takes away the whole

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4497

religious —

MR. JOEY: Yeah. Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — thing and it moves it into a different realm.

MR. JOEY: All righty.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What are you? (To animal)

MR. JOEY: Fascinating little rodent, isn’t it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, I love it. I’ve never had one of these guys just come up in my lawn like that.

MR. JOEY: Okay. Is there anything else the Loyalists should be doing other than possibly using these documents, filing this suit?

MR. ARMSTRONG: They should be preparing affidavits.

MR. JOEY: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: They should be —

MR. JOEY: You mentioned before, like a PR campaign getting ready for this.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, that’s the sort of thing, you know — that is the sort of thing like the issue. There’s many, many other things. Like you could size up — obviously every time you talk to someone, it’s part of a PR campaign as far as you

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4498

guys are concerned. Right? You get a new recruit into the fold. It’s a PR campaign.

MR. JOEY: Like these issues and PR campaign are going to disrupt the Church and turn it into management.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, those things, I leave that up — obviously you guys are in a better position. Christ, you know the game far better than I do. If you want to agent provocateurs, you’re the artists. You can probably “do what thou wilt” along those lines. I don’t think I have to give you any instructions, but I do think that you know we sit at a particular crossroads of history relative to the Organization and, damn it, we should be able to act, I think. You know? And cause our own destiny here, instead of sitting back and waiting for it to happen. The adrenalin rush. But actually, I can do without that shit. Hence, I’m involved. I keep hearing those things all around, man —

MR. JOEY: All right. All right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know I’ll probably have more questions. I always have a lot of questions later. Oh, the other thing, I don’t know if it makes sense to you to sort of divide up the Organization and go after people on that basis.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4499

Just so that you know, shit, we have this group covered. And then divide it up structurally so that you have all the various key points which have to be covered. I think that you guys will be able to take over and then use operating income to continue the battle. And that way you can secure the buildings, take it over, and I think that it’s going to take that kind of thing, a lot of people, by the way.

MR. JOEY: Like game plan. Like you want the global settlement, like you say, working together. It’d be like our people running the Church, getting these guys out of the way.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Sooner or later someone’s going to have to settle.

MR. JOEY: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Like if you guys decide, “Fuck you,” just continue on. It really doesn’t make any difference. I have my lawsuit and I’m going ahead on that. And that keeps me involved, you know, in addition to everything else I do, and that’s going to pay off sooner or later and I’m going to assist wherever I can in bringing this goddamned dog to bay, because I think it’s — there’s no fucking way you guys should have to go through searches when you walk in and out of the

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4500

Church or through fucking TV cameras. You’re talking about some goddamned terrorist organization, PLO head.

MR. JOEY: Well, they’re afraid of robberies, that’s the line.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, horse-fucking-shit. Yeah, robberies. That’s why they’re frisking people, right? I mean, that’s crazy and it’s time it ended. And not only that, but when you get a group of crazies together —

MR. JOEY: Yeah. Oh okay. Anything else you need from me?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t think so.

MR. JOEY: You do definitely have to run now, you don’t have time to —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Remember to meet her.

MR. JOEY: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Nope. But if you’d call —

MR. JOEY: But you’d like to?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, I’d like to very much. I think it could be mutually beneficial.

MR. JOEY: Okay. And you’re going to go over everything with Flynn and —


MR. JOEY: And I’ll get back to you on that.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4501

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yep. And I’m going to copy this stuff, send him off the package, and sort through it and see what the heck it really is all about.

MR. JOEY: And if he has any other ideas on how to use those things, let me know.


MR. JOEY: Any other ideas on that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: You got two board members.

MR. JOEY: Right. And maybe we should actually set up some time for you and I to get together, or whoever, and if we’re going to call one of these guys, we can do that, we’ve got more time, maybe.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. What I’d —

MR. JOEY: Get together sometime and do that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: See, I need to arrange, before we get together and decide to do it, I’d need to set up a time with them, more or less. I’ll have to set up a three-way time.

MR. JOEY: Oh, it wouldn’t be something we’d just do after you —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Well, we could definitely just call up and they’d talk to us. But what if they’re tape recording Lyman Spurlock at

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4502

that time? I don’t know that they’ll want to break. You know what I mean?

MR. JOEY: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It’s best if we can give them a little noise. It’s not critical either way. You know, if we said — well, let’s talk to these guys. Great. I think that they would want to talk in person because they’re searching for understanding about it with current information. Obviously the information they have, unless they got ahold of some defectors (inaudible) is not very current.

You know, 1982, is really the most current information, I believe, of anyone they’re talking to that I know of. Homer probably knew what was going on in ASI in 1982.

MR. JOEY: Okay. We got it. We got it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We’ll keep in touch.

MR. JOEY: See you. Thanks.

(End of tape.)


  1. See Excerpt of Proceedings in Christofferson v. Scientology.