Court transcript: Illegal video of November 17, 1984

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE STATE OF OREGON

FOR THE COUNTY OF MULTNOMAH

JULIE CHRISTOFFERSON TITCHBOURNE,

Plaintiff,

vs.

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY, MISSION OF DAVIS, a non-profit California corporation, doing business in Oregon; CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA, a California corporation, doing business in Oregon; and L. RON HUBBARD,

Defendants.

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No. A7704-05184

EXCERPT OF PROCEEDINGS 1

April 15-16, 1985

[…]

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5052

(Following is a video tape recording transcript made November 17, 1984.)

VIDEO TAPE RECORDED TRANSCRIPT

MR. ARMSTRONG: How are you doing?

MR. RINDER: Very good. How are you?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Not bad.

MR. RINDER: Finally. Documents. Are you going to give that back to me?

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you like.

MR. RINDER: So? Here I am. Now, I guess you are probably going to want a little bit about why me, but the reason that I wanted to meet you is because we are a little concerned at this point about the fact that, you know, stuff being relayed through this relay point and that, you know, there may be some misduplication and that kind of shit — and I want to get the straight scoop from you. I also — I brought this draft of the suit. There’s some points in there —

(End of first video tape.)

MR. WADE: For the record, 897 begins now.

(Defendants’ Exhibit 897 video tape played. Following is a transcript of that recording.)

MR. RINDER: I need it more than you do, I

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5053

think. So, here I am. Now, I guess you are probably going to want to know a little bit about why — why me, but the reason that I wanted to meet you is because we are a little concerned at this point about — the fact that — you know, the stuff being relayed through this relay point and that — you know, there may be some misduplication and that kind of shit, and I want to get the straight scoop from you. I also — I brought this draft of the suit. There’s some points in there — well, I have a little concern about some of those, about how we are going to handle that; if we were to go ahead and bring that, how it would actually come off. You know, at certain times we really need to — to get the real scene, you know, what’s really going on, so I’m going to — I have a (inaudible). Joey doesn’t have that. So I can then be a more direct relay point, because this has been going on now for some time.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There’s a lot of things I would like to work out, which I think would make things go along a lot easier. First of all, the complaint, itself, that’s not set in concrete.

MR. RINDER: No, no, I understand that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And a lot of issues keep

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5054

coming up which kind of broadens the whole thing, as far as I’m concerned. The last time I met with Joey it was with the girl, and at that point I was basically given a go ahead to locate an attorney. I don’t know if you guys have an attorney, I don’t know what the status of that is. However, when, apparently, the money fell through — well, whatever happened, I did not have the name of the attorneys. And I would be willing to do that, but that’s kind of a last thing I was left with.

My understanding is it’s sort of up in the air the whole thing. And that’s okay. I don’t have any compulsion to do any of it. But, you know, in my opinion the organization is in a state of transformation and it has to be altered. It is altering itself. We happen to be in a situation right now where, you know, something good can come out of it. That’s philosophically where I stand on it. I don’t want to continue on a legal battle against anyone.

MR. RINDER: That’s exactly what our position is on that. That is really the common interest that we have with you.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Everyone has — you know, as an aside, that viewpoint is being assumed on the

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5055

outside in great numbers. People are suddenly beginning to realize that, you know, the thing — something is happening and a transformation has to take place. So what does everyone do in a situation like that?

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: But it is being picked up on the side. I got a call this morning from Martin Samuels. I had a call two weeks ago from Ben (inaudible) — all of whom, you know, are kind of moving away from — from the — well we are just going to a proceed with our lawsuit kind of viewpoint to the — you know, to the position that something is happening and something can be done. So what does Scientology as a body want their organization to become? You people are in a very unique position. It’s never happened before in the history of the organization, although in a sense, the Miscavage takeover was similar.

MR. RINDER: Right. Yeah. Similar. We have just got to get some people in certain positions that are more attuned to the position that we are in when we actually manage to pull that off.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, it seems like he’s very firmly entrenched, but the degree of entrenchment

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5056

could be his demise.

MR. RINDER: That’s very true. I mean, that to some degree is the basic premise of the suit, you know; that entrenchment and the control of the organization is sort of what this is shooting for.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. You are familiar with the whole legal scene? You are legally —

MR. RINDER: Yeah, I’m pretty familiar with the legal scene.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I’ll ask some questions. Now, I understand you had a couple of Board members at CSC or at least people — people who think similarly. How many Board members are there in CSC?

MR. RINDER: Well, there’s a president and then there is the secretary, treasurer, and — you know, and assistant treasurer. And then I believe there are voting members, as well.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, really?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: For Board members minutes, how many signatures do you need?

MR. RINDER: You know, I actually don’t know that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Can you find that out?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5057

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: The reason I ask is simply because — you know, all these legal concepts kind of come to me and I would really like to talk to an attorney on your behalf or whatever, because I think — you know, the situation is so unique that the legal possibilities are enormous. For example, the Board simply votes to retain new counsel and you know the way Board minutes are circulated inside the organization —

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — they just type one up and everyone signs it, then you have Board minutes.

MR. RINDER: We would just get someone to —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, if the Board — The CSC Board are under the control of someone else, obviously.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. They’re under the control of CSI to some degree because there’s some sort of an agreement that exists between CSI and all the other churches.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What’s that agreement? What is the agreement?

MR. RINDER: It something in the area of and agreement to — it’s like — you know, there is this

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5058

licensing agreement that exists between (inaudible) and CSI and I believe it goes down from, like, CSI down to the other churches, that licensing agreement on the basis of good research of the technology they are allowed to continue to go through with that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: CSC a couple of years ago was the whole thing. CSC now is a relatively miniscule part of the whole thing. They probably (inaudible) SOR.

MR. RINDER: Well, it’s not — I mean, CSC is a bad miniscule because it still includes like, AOLA AOSHA,’s —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yeah. In fact, you have operating orgs which is — you see, I don’t know the form this thing is going to take. But we don’t have to get so stuck on the one complaint. I think it’s a great complaint. I think you guys are in a position where you can make it happen.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In addition to that, there is also the concept that what if CSC suddenly said, “We’re CSC, we’re getting new attorneys, we’re firing our old attorneys. Not only that, but we’re going to sue them. You know, they fucked us over and they made us divest all this shit which we

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5059

didn’t want to. And we are demanding SOR back, and we are demanding all the organizations back. We are the mother Church. So fuck you guys.” You know, there’s that kind of thing which could be done by simply a part. You don’t have to be a whole body of Scientology. You could do it corporately. And, you know, take for example the agreement that you have with CSI. That agreement certainly can be rescinded. Not only that, but you can find out the conditions under which the agreement was made. Who signed the damned thing and did they have any choice? They were the head — They were the Board at the time. There had to be a Board at the time.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: The Board at the time had to have signed an agreement. And they were all removed or kicked out or dismembered or whatever. But those people signed some agreement. If you could simply find out from them, “Ah, we were told, ‘Sign or we are dead,’ signed and you’re kicked out.” By who? Who could tell the Board they’ve got to sign? It’s an open-and-shut case. There’s so many of those possibilities. Do you remember the note I sent along by Joey a while ago? What happened during that transition from the — you know, from CSC and

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5060

CSC is kind of a front for the whole thing. Hubbard controlled through CSC for so many years; correct?

MR. RINDER: Well, then you get into the legality of what is control. I mean, that’s what’s being litigated right now to a large extent.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s a whole different subject, you see. You people are, in fact, the organization.

MR. RINDER: Right. Provided there’s enough of us. You see, that’s one of the concerns that I have about this. Actually, we have a line to an attorney, and I had this suit, had him look at it, and you know, not just on the basis of taking it on or anything, but just to give us a little advice on it. And — like, one of the questions is: what would be the standing of the plaintiffs in the first place? You know, like, to say that we are going to get together twenty people and say this is now the Church, you know, this is CSC or CSI or whatever, it’s like you know, three, four, five hundred people in CSI and maybe 800 people in CSC and I think —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah

MR. RINDER: — that could turn out to be a real weak point in that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes. But they can’t kick you

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5061

out of — you know, they can’t kick you out. See, if you say, “I’m it. I’m just as much a part of it as you are” — I mean, not to say that you are it and they are not. But I can’t say that I’m the Church of Scientology. I made that — You know, I made that choice when I walked out the door. You guys haven’t walked out, so you are in a completely different position.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, but what — you know — See, the liability of this — the real liability of this suit for us is that it puts us out in the open. Now, obviously at some point we are going to have to go out in the open, but there’s a liability to it in that unless this is strong enough to make it without crumbling under the first challenge, we are fucking dead, man. I mean we are just dead. I mean, the first thing that will happen is if we are bringing a suit, we’ll just get the (inaudible). Everybody whose name is on there, the plaintiffs would just get the (inaudible) and expelled. Then we —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s the whole point. That’s when you get into, “Sorry we are not moving.”

MR. RINDER: Well, then it becomes like a PR battle.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It is a PR battle, which is

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5062

why I mentioned in the last note. I hope you guys get these things.

MR. RINDER: That’s one of the things that I don’t know, that everything that you said is being relayed correctly.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, I am only a relay point in this thing. You know, however, I do make it — you know my purpose to create as much shit as possible. You know, since I have —

MR. RINDER: Shit for the organization?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I do whatever I do; I have no — I’m not hooked into anything. Anyway, I mention that, you know, there are many PR aspects to it. And the PR things can be so well done that — you know, Scientologists, because they have had it drilled into them, tend to believe. They are believers.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5063

Anyway, that’s why I mentioned get off-policy actions. Anything, any little detail that you can find that the top has done off old accepted policy that they are doing off now, you know, hidden data lines, use of PIs, anything you can find. Then you’ve got the organization behind you, because they are off policy. Include it in the lawsuit; include it. They are not doing what’s best for Scientology, because they are violating the policies. They are operating it autonomously and they are not operating to the best — for the good of the group.

There is a lot of those things that have to be worked out that make the complaint very strong. You know, no one has any idea if the thing will be pulled off. No one. You can’t tell five seconds from now what’s going to happen and to have to have a sure thing, well, we can wait until the cows come home.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, I got that point.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It’s going to take a Che Guevara, it’s going to take some asshole to stand up and say, “Fuck it. Enough of this shit.” You know, it’s going to take that.

MR. RINDER: They will have to be in a strong enough position prior to that to be able to stand up

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5064

and get anybody to hit them. Do you see what I am saying? You know, it’s like —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you have anyone like that? You know, there’s two different positions. You know, there’s — one is the public relations position and one is the organizational position. You may not be in the organizational position, but what kind of position are the people going to be in if a whole shitload of them are indicted? That’s not going to have a lot of —

MR. RINDER: That’s the thing. That’s kind of — That’s how that ties into this, because that would weaken those people who are in those positions right now, that have that authority to call a meeting of old stock and let them all stand up there and say, “Look. There’s a bunch of assholes and I’m going to get them.”

MR. ARMSTRONG: You guys have the same possibility.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, it’s a possibility.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, it could just be done. The whole — You know, if you guys concentrated only on the CSC, on the blue building. Divide the damned thing up and just, you know, the day that the thing happens, you know, the day you

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5065

file your complaint, then just call everyone and say to the meeting, “I don’t know the positions of the people or if they are in positions of strength, if they are accepted in the organization or —

MR. RINDER: They’re not all dishwashers, obviously.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — you know, somewhere in between. They are obviously not in ASI.

MR. RINDER: Right. That’s not the organization anyway.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. But not only that, you are going to get people on your side. How about if one of these days — you know, let’s say that at a given hour a whole bunch of people were to pitch up on the doorstep?

MR. RINDER: Where at?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Wherever you wanted them. Suddenly you have got numbers. Suddenly you have got a lot of people crowding into Lebanon Hall to hear lectures, to hear talks, to hear the announcement. Then you may have numbers on your side.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There are a lot of people on the outside. And potentially the whole thing could

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5066

be orchestrated, it could all be divided up into cells, and they could all be brought to one place at a given instance.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And it can be done during the chaos or whatever RTC’s ASI’s got going on. Who runs the organization right now?

MR. RINDER: Which organization?

MR. ARMSTRONG: All of it. Who runs it?

MR. RINDER: It gets run through CMO.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And who are these people?

MR. RINDER: You know, they’re probably the same guys as when you were around.

MR. ARMSTRONG: A lot of them are gone.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, quite a number of them are.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I am.

MR. RINDER: Sure. It’s 12:35.

Yeah, that’s true; that’s true. I’ll tell you, I am going to be totally honest with you, Gerry. I can see some potential — I can see some potential in this suit. And it’s actually one thing that I now see is the usefulness of talking to someone that’s not stuck into it, because you get kind of a whole exterior view and can look at things

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5067

which, you know, I tend — I tend to self-doubt a little about, you know, how far we can go.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s the way the mind works.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. You know, I’m doubtful of my position, too. You know what I mean? Like —

MR. ARMSTRONG: What have you got to lose?

MR. RINDER: Well, I have my life as a Scientologist, because I am still a Scientologist. I don’t want to change that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I understand. I don’t see how that — how that alters it in any way.

MR. RINDER: Well, that just puts me in a little different position from you —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Of course.

MR. RINDER: — because that is a threat of loss to me and to the people that I am —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.

MR. RINDER: — involved with. That’s our threat of loss. And that becomes — You see, there is like the ecclesiastical lines and then there is the legal secular line. And our threat of loss — you see, they have to go sort of hand in hand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s which brings us to another subject which, you know, you have to make a very clear differentiation between those two things,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5068

because they are absolutely different. The organization tends to lump them all together so that they can get away with their abuses and call them ecclesiastical rights or whatever. You know, like the hiring of PIs, all that’s just Church doctrine. Bullshit. You know, you guys have to make a distinction and get it reel straight about what the fuck is the organization? What the fuck is worth saving?

MR. RINDER: Right. I understand that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that has to be part of the lawsuit.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because they have twisted it and perverted it to the point where your organization stands a good chance of being smacked down so fucking hard it will never rise again, because people are going to get real pissed off, because people are pissed off and they are going to get pissed off and PIs are going to step out of line and somebody is going to get killed and that will be ticked up to Scientology as you have ever known it. It’s going to come across as nothing better than fucking terrorism, which is basically what it is, right now.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5069

You guys are terrorized. You can’t even fucking walk out of the organization. Fucking frisked and TV monitors. Come on. Its all there. Somebody has to stand up and say, “Enough of this bullshit.” Because sooner or later somebody is going to get fucking hurt.

You know, you got federal agencies that — you know, that are just about to bring the hammer down. You guys are assaulted from every corner with lawsuits. They can all be bought off. They can all be bought off for, you know, five cents on the dollar.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It happens to be in the hands of a very few paranoid individuals, and they should be smacked down.

MR. RINDER: I’m a little paranoid, too. If now what I mean.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You are not paranoid. You have a justifiable fear and I recognize that. It creates fear. What the fuck kind of a Church is it — Come on. It’s so ludicrous to anyone on the outside. A fear, you know — What kind of an organization that just creates this incredible fear inside everyone in there? Fucking scared to death.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5070

And they are so suppressed that they haven’t got a clue about the way the world really is out here. Not that I do either. I’m not saying I have a handle on anything. But I tell you, something is going to happen in that organization sooner or later, whether or not, you know, it’s you guys or whether or not it’s some wacko or whether or not — you know, somebody takes a shot at someone. I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: But I think you are in a position where something can be done. And if they really are dedicated to — you know, saving Scientology, save Scientology, don’t save the shit that’s going on now. Scientology sure as fuck is not that.

MR. RINDER: That’s true.

You know, like I was sort of starting to say — I am going to be totally frank with you — I have this lawsuit and doing this, I have some concerns that we are being set up.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have a concern that I am being set up. Every time I talk to you guys, I have the same concern. But I kind of think, fuck. What’s going to happen, you know? What’s going to

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5071

happen? What if you guys are setting me up? Just to go to court sometime later. You know, that’s how the courts are viewing all this shit, you know: entrapment, setups, lies. They’re taking a beating everywhere they go. You know, no one believes Scientology any more. When you talk about Scientology out there, bullshit. Unbelievable. No credibility. They’ve got no credibility because they are a terrorist organization. You can’t trust terrorists. Never believe ’em.

Anyway, you should have a lot of concerns about it. You know, frankly, I don’t think it matters a damn. It really honestly doesn’t matter a damn if you guys file or not, or if you do anything or if you all go back and just continue on. None of that matters.

MR. RINDER: Well, it does matter.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There you get into some deep philosophic questions which I couldn’t answer. But I’m saying that doesn’t matter.

What I think of the group: real fucking exciting. I think that you guys sit in a situation where, fuck, you can sure get out of the boredom of Scientology for a couple of days. Isn’t it a boring thing?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5072

MR. RINDER: Well, I don’t mind.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Bullshit. It’s fucking boring. Jesus, it’s fucking — Not really, you know, the Scientology — If everyone in there with just any news, the least news. Adrenalin addicts have got to have their data (inaudible). But I don’t — I don’t think it matters. It can be great, you know. It would be real exciting in a sense, you know, I wish I was there because that — Jesus Christ, I think it’s — It’s exciting and you guys could be in a position of doing a great deal of good. But, you know, the rule is not to be fucking —

MR. RINDER: Well, my world will be.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In a sense. In a sense.

MR. RINDER: In a real sense.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Whatever you make it.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. My world revolves around Scientology. I mean that’s the way I am and that’s the way I’m going to stay. You start talking about wow, it’s going to be wiped out, and whack, whack and — you know, that’s not something that I want and, you know, we keep getting stuff back from Joey that says the indictments are going to be coming down and all this sort of shit. I don’t know. I

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5073

don’t know what’s going to happen with that stuff.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, I don’t know either. But what I do know is that the thing cannot remain status quo. It cannot. And it won’t. I don’t know how — I don’t know what’s going to happen. No one does. And that’s why the fact that we don’t know what’s going to happen puts us in a position of being able to do something, because we are not hooked into the way it is.

MR. RINDER: What can we do to make something happen?

MR. ARMSTRONG: You guys can do basically whatever you want.

MR. RINDER: So we got to survive that, too. Whatever we do, we got to survive.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You will survive; there is no doubt of that. Whether or not, you know, it turns out the way you hope — who knows? Who has any expectations? The only thing you get when you get an expectation is an upset, because no exceptation ever happens. You know, no girl you ever went out with ends up exactly the way you thought she was in the beginning. That’s the whole thing about expectations. And when you kind of move away from expectations, then whatever happens, you can live

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5074

with.

MR. RINDER: Right. We have an expectation. Regardless of anything else, we have an expectation that isn’t going to go away that we are still going to be Scientologists. We have no interest in that —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You guys have more hope of being Scientologists if you do this. If you stand up and say, “I am a Scientologist and I don’t want the frigging organization” — you know, “to be this kind of a paranoid operation.” That’s silly. And to think there are government agencies that hate you is also a lot of bullshit. I have talked to probably twenty, thirty people in various places in government the last couple of years. I have not found one who had any problem with Scientology, any vendetta, any desire to stop Scientology or any desire of hurting any Scientologist. Not one. That’s the lie that’s perpetrated on the inside.

MR. RINDER: Well, you know — But I have seen some stuff that says otherwise to that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What?

MR. RINDER: I saw this transcript of a meeting; you know, one of those bugged meetings that they fucking did back in ’74?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5075

MR.ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: I saw a transcript of a fucking meeting between some guys in the IRS. Dedesco, Runk, I think. I think that’s what their names were. And — I mean, I tell you — I’ll tell you, Gerry, the whole tone of that meeting was not — was nothing other than what they really want to do is wipe out the Church. I mean that is an area that I am a little paranoid in. I mean that’s great when you tell me that, but —

MR. ARMSTRONG: What exactly did they want to wipe out?

MR. RINDER: Well, the basic statement in there was something on the order of, you know, just handling the tax-exempt point isn’t enough.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s — That’s the way it is.

MR. RINDER: I mean is what their view is? What else is it they want to handle from IRS? Well I got —

MR. ARMSTRONG: They want to handle the same stuff you guys want to handle.

MR. RINDER: I don’t understand what their motive is for that. I don’t understand why. As fars I know your interest is in collecting taxes,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5076

you know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s true. However, if there is an illegal control of a charitable corporation which is used for illegal means, and if there is money inuring on a grand scale to an individual, then it becomes a different matter. Not only that, but if you look and see how many people have been hurt, then it fast moves out of the realm of a charitable organization.

There is no charity in Scientology. Scientology corporation exists as it is now only as a tool of the very small group at the top. They use it as a tool. They keep enemies at bay, and they are able to wield a lot of power over a lot of people. And the people who’ve got to the top are those who wanted a great deal of power and they were willing to be ruthless to get there and equally ruthless in keeping that power. That’s what — You know, again, these people haven’t said anything to me. They are after Miscavage and they are after Hubbard. And they should be, because Hubbard ripped off a lot of people. He fucking lied to us. While he was telling us that he wasn’t making any money, he was making millions. Fucking crooked. Anyone who opposed him, anyone who sought to have

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5077

conditions better, was smacked down. All the time he was lying about his control. Oh, yeah, he retired in 1966. Horse shit.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Yeah, you know, —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s just the way it is. The guy got greedy. He had some brilliant ideas; he got greedy; that’s it.

MR. RINDER: From our viewpoint, attack — without — I don’t see — my personal view is that that’s not the target for us, very much now. Because if we want to continue to be Scientologists, then he has to remain there and be the source and be that figurehead leader that’s — you know, talked about in SM management.

MR. ARMSTRONG: He can — He can be that thing and you can have that viewpoint regarding him. I don’t have any problem with that or Scientology or anything about it. But I do have a great deal of difficulty with the fact that people’s lives are being fucked around. I mean, no corporation can have more rights than an individual. And when the organization, especially like Scientology, attempts to hide behind a veil of religiosity, Scientology, in my opinion, is a greater threat to the freedom of religion in the United States than anything else.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5078

All this bullshit about Flynn and Clark and all this anti-religion — Flynn is probably one of the most religious people I ever met.

(Stranger borrows a light.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, but that’s just where I stand on it. I sit down here and I see that things are — things are somewhat ludicrous in the organization. Anyone that will put up with that shit.

MR. RINDER: What?

MR. ARMSTRONG: The fucking thing on the big stick, you know. I mean, Jesus Christ, dedicated to the enslavement of man? Come on. You know, and how — After while, where the fuck is the truth? Where the fuck is it? You look at that issue, there isn’t been a goddamned word of truth. I haven’t even testified to the IRS. How could they possibly know what the false reports are? The problem is, Scientology minds are such that they can’t — they fucking can’t read logic. It’s just like, wow, what Ron says is true.

Jesus Christ, you are more important to yourself than L. Ron Hubbard is to you. All the truth that exists is inside you, and to think it’s out there and some other guy’s got it, that’s

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5079

defeatest. Fuck, you guys are all just as big and strong — fuck, you are all in better shape than he is.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s just a reality, but —

MR. RINDER: I don’t want to get into a philosophical argument about, you know, what I think about Scientology and —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. One thing you have to realize, in my opinion, is that nobody, but nobody, wants to stop anyone from practicing Scientology, other than Scientologists. There are people who want Scientology to be destroyed. You look at the — at what great strides they have made to the point where — you know, now it’s all trademarked and copyrighted. That just about spells the death of that religion. You know, it will go to court. There will be a Supreme Court ruling. Because you can’t — you can’t claim to be a religion and not be (inaudible). You can’t say, “Well, I’ve got the only brand of truth.”

MR. RINDER: True.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, and then — like his trademark song and —

MR. RINDER: I mean, is anyone ever going to,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5080

like, argue that point?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Because there is going to be more Scientologists practicing outside than there are inside. Yeah, they will reach a critical number someday. I don’t know when. And I don’t have any stake in it. You know, no one out here is dedicated to the enslavement of man. Maybe a few guys in the organization, but I have never met anyone out here. Not anyone.

MR. RINDER: Well, you see, this thing — it all gets really nebulous about where to go, what to do. That sort of —

MR. ARMSTRONG: It is nebulous, because — simply because we can’t, you know, send information back and forth.

MR. RINDER: We do.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We do, but we really — I mean —

MR. RINDER: You know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know. It’s sort of — In a sense, it’s kind of like — you think it’s different than what everyone over here thinks. You know, what label you put on yourself means fuck off to me. I can talk to any person in the whole world as soon as I’m talking to you. It makes no

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5081

difference. I don’t have anything against Scientology. That’s just so much bullshit, or against Scientologists.

That’s kind of the idea that I think will ultimately be gotten over by everyone who’s inside. It’s going to open the doors and it’s going to be free and they are going to do with Scientology whatever they can do with it. And they are going to start to do something decent, you know, and not just running around trying to make money to pay the attorneys and pay the PIs.

MR. RINDER: Right. Well, see, it all comes back to, like the same basic problem that we are always confronted with of there is something that needs to be changed. There is no question about that. That’s why we exist.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.

MR. RINDER: There is something that has got to change. We don’t want — From our viewpoint, we don’t want to change to the point where Scientology becomes unrecognizable to us as we know and believe that it should be. Do you see what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Therefore, it’s up to you guys. No one anywhere is mandating what it’s going to be. No one. No one even cares. I have a

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5082

personal stake in it in that I simply want all the goddamned lawsuits that are currently going on to end so I can get the fuck out of this stupidity. I want them to settle.

MR. RINDER: You mean like your lawsuit.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Fuck, there isn’t only my lawsuit. You know, I’m a — I’m going to be a witness in every lawsuit that’s coming up from here on out, because I got the fraud. You know, for better or worse, I fucking uncovered it. I got those fucking documents and I uncovered the fraud. I think it behooves the people inside to act — to agree to some degree sensibly about it.

MR. RINDER: And what what do you mean? You mean us?

MR. ARMSTRONG: The organization. I think that it simply is time to say, “You know, here’s the truth.” You know, the fraud and (inaudible) — The organization is not dedicated to truth, it’s dedicated to the pursuit of (inaudible) — it’s something else.

MR. RINDER: So that ought to change it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, in my opinion — Let me ask you some questions.

MR. RINDER: Go ahead.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5083

MR. ARMSTRONG: Joey has on occasion mentioned a figure of thirty-five people who, at least to some degree, know that there’s is a group inside dedicated to change. Okay? How much mobility do they have?

MR. RINDER: And what — You mean, like within the organization, what can I get around to? Where can they — There’s thirty-five, yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So they really don’t have a great deal of mobility. Perhaps there are people who operate out of the — off the property?

MR. RINDER: Uh-huh.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Some of them have mobility?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Aside from the lawsuit — Let’s just put the lawsuits aside, and let’s put aside the concept of attrition, because that’s not influenced a great deal on the outside except as you plug in to make use of situations; right?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: For —

MR. RINDER: That’s not true. It is very much influenced by the outside. Like when you started talking about indicting fifteen are twenty or whatever number of people it is in Canada, that

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5084

has a real effect on the attrition. Come on.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. But you have virtually no control about whether or not one of your boys is going to move up the ladder to replace them.

MR. RINDER: I understand that. But until they go, there is — no one is going to move up the ladder and replace them. Do you see what I’m saying? Carry on.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. I understand the attrition concept. What else can be done? What do you imagine can be done?

MR. RINDER: Well, see, this thing about this lawsuit, I am —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Aside from the lawsuit, aside from attrition. Do we have any — Do we have any potential business with each other? You know, is there some — How do you see me?

MR. RINDER: How do I see you? Well, to some extent I see you as — I see you in two lights. One is the — I feel like you have real — well, potentially have real use in that you have an exterior view, you have a lot of data about, you know, what goes on, what people think, you know what the general tone of affairs is outside of the Church. Which is important to us, you know.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5085

In theory, we could accomplish a takeover on the inside and have it all fucked up on the outside; you know, in theory. That’s an unlikely thing, because once you are in the position where you can control things, you can also control that opinion poll. I also see you as being to some degree a conduit in which we can communicate to people outside, via you.

Then on the other hand, I have my sort of native paranoia state where I wonder whether you are not just setting us up — to you know, come into this lawsuit, make allegations in the lawsuit that may not be true or that we can’t substantiate, for the purpose of just simply disrupting everybody to get their attention off the other suits. You know —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have never conceived of such a thing. But —

MR. RINDER: You see, I know, Gerry. When you say you never conceived of such a thing, to me, that’s not a an unreal thing to think could be going on. You know what I mean?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5086

MR. ARMSTRONG: Granted it never entered my mind, and I don’t exactly see how it would happen, but —

MR. RINDER: Maybe it’s not even you that’s doing it or that you are doing it unwittingly. You know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: You know, who is it that, like you communicate to? And it could be a completely unwitting thing. You could have the view that “Yeah, well, this is really the way I can help these guys, and blah, blah, blah.” And someone else is maybe figuring out how your good intentions to help are actually going to result in just payoffs and — fuck up within the Organization, which would be very beneficial to someone that had that intent. Maybe you do see what I mean — you know —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s how you guys capitalize on it is chaos.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. But we can only capitalize on it is, if out of being assuring chaos, we come out on top. We can’t capitalize on it if we sacrifice to create that chaos, sacrificial lambs, you know. I don’t want to be left hanging on a cross somewhere, having gone ahead with some idea

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5087

that — you know, Gerry Armstrong came up with, like, “Yeah, it sounded all great,” and two months down the line I find out here I sit. I’ve been declared, I now have a fucking suit against me —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That is the down side. That is the — You know, that’s the fucking down side in living. It’s the down side in you meeting with me. This (inaudible) could be a guy driving by, and, you know, bing.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And then there’s a conspiracy rap and you are declared, and they sue you. I mean, that’s — there’s down sides in everything.

MR. RINDER: But, see, that’s a reduced — that has a very much redused possibility as long as I’m careful about what I do. Do you see what I mean? Like I can control that a little more than I can control something that someone else kind of brings along.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: I’m being totally honest with you. You asked me, how do I see you? That’s how I see you. I realize — I mean in saying that, in saying that to you, it’s like a real down side to even saying it to you. I mean I could sit here and

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5088

say, “Yeah, I think you are a great guy and wack, wack, wack.” You know, I realize I’m in a fucking position. I’ve got more to lose probably out of this right now than you have. For myself, maybe not legally, maybe not — The things that I hold as important to me, there’s more threat of loss to me right now than there is to you meeting with me. Do you know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, could be. I mean, I don’t know that any one person’s losses in terms of all guys —

MR. RINDER: Well, you know, you have already said you set yourself up in this position. That’s the thing you are pursuing.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We could be attacked.

MR. RINDER: Just what happens if somebody drives past and sees us? I mean, I don’t know. I guess it could be handled. I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So, do you see anything other than this possibility, that is, you know, aside from the lawsuit and proceeding with that? Do you — you know, is there any percentage in you guys maintaining a communication line with me? Obviously — You see, the thing about living on the outside is that — you know, it’s a pretty free society, and

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5089

there isn’t — there isn’t a lot going on. There’s isn’t a lot being covered up. Do you know what I mean? So you guys — there isn’t a great deal of — of intelligence which can flow from my direction towards you people. You know, I can let you in on — you know, what I hear from the Canadians. But, you know, they are not (inaudible) — they didn’t or can’t say, Well, you know — otherwise their ass is in a knot.

MR. RINDER: From what we understood from Joey, you had some sort of a line that could keep us informed on that sort of shit, because he keeps coming back and saying, “Gerry says that (inaudible) — you know, like ten different times we get this information back on the lines. It’s like — That is valuable to us.

MR. ARMSTRONG: All right.

MR. RINDER: How you have proven out to be hasn’t been too valuable to us so far because it hasn’t happened.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. And yet, you see, in many cases, you see, it’s such an open communication line that anyone could call up Mike Flynn and say, “How is it going?” You know? Even though he does tell me a lot more than he probably

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5090

would tell anyone else, and so are the Canadians. But it’s not going to be anything that is going to — you know, be earth-shaking. If we wanted — You see, if we wanted to get into the passing of very detailed information which could greatly assist — in other words, the creation of a network which is not only within the Organization, but which is outside, then that’s a whole — another thing. That’s something that — you know, could be created, could be developed.

MR. RINDER: How would you do that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have mobility and I have a lot of people out here. I don’t know what your capabilities are inside. You know, I have often asked a number of questions and I have not gotten answers to a lot of — you know, certain things, so I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: Ask me again. I’ll just tell you one thing.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: Joey doesn’t know everything that’s going on.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who photographed me the other day?

MR. RINDER: He’s a security force.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5091

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know the guy, but I know he’s a security force.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It was simply the guys who walked around the building?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. They have two cars. They have two blue cars with a white top, and they drive around in them.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. I asked for a license number.

MR. RINDER: You asked for license number?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes. The idea is —

MR. RINDER: Okay. We can get those fucking easy.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I asked that same day.

MR. RINDER: That’s why —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. So now we are talking.

MR. RINDER: We can get that sort of shit easy.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you have my list of pay phone numbers?

MR. RINDER: Joey’s still got it. I can get it from him.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. If you guys can arrange an address —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5092

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR.ARMSTRONG: — Some place that mail can go to so that —

MR. RINDER: We can set up a PO box.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s your problem.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Here’s what I would like to do. You know, let’s put aside — Oh, the other thing is, do you want me to do anything with attorneys? Does someone have any money?

MR. RINDER: Well, we don’t have — We don’t have enough money right now to be able — I don’t think any attorney would take this on a contingency.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m not talking about contingency. We are talking about two or three months, (inaudible). You know, it’s going to be — it’s not a protracted legal battle. It can’t be. It cannot be that kind of a thing.

MR. RINDER: Right. That is my concern, because a protracted thing or a thing that gets into a lot of fucking, you know, motions to dismiss and this and that and rack, rack, rack, I don’t think we will survive that. That wasn’t exactly the point of that —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You are asking for injunctive

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5093

relief, and you’re asking for it now, adding another thing. Make a note of this. We have to add into the complaint the threat which you people feel what is going to happen to you when you bring this lawsuit. And you can substantiate that with affidavits on whatever has happened to anyone who has opposed or who has sought to correct things. You know, for example, Franks’ lawsuit, Homer Schomer’s sec check. I don’t know all the details —

MR. RINDER: Those affi’s already exist, though.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, you’ve got to get new affi’s; you can’t just photocopy one from some other lawsuit. But —

MR. RINDER: Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because, you know, you’ve got a brand new complaint. You need new affidavits, newly signed, currently dated. It can’t be just a whole big stack of old documents.

MR. RINDER: Okay. I mean, I take your word on that. I don’t fully understand. I understood that something that was, like, admitted evidence or was taken in an affidavit, you know, with a court reporter or whatever was then admissible evidence in another suit.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5094

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s true. And if you guys can get ahold of it and say, you know, “Here’s what happened in this situation” — but that’s not the affidavit on which the complaint is filed. That’s the supporting documentation.

MR. RINDER: I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who’s your legal mind? Or do you have a legal mind above yourself?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5095

MR. ARMSTRONG: Someone who’s —

MR. RINDER: — a little more afraid than I am with it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

MR. RINDER: I’m not like completely out (inaudible) legal shit.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You’re (inaudible) fine. And I’m not — and I’m no attorney.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay? And also make a note of — get — If we consider going ahead with the lawsuit, you would want to weave into it, you know, violations of Scientology policy. And the reason for that is not so much as to affect the Court, although you can in that way show that they are not the legitimate leaders because they are in continued violation of their own policy, but you want to swing the — you know, the troops around.

MR. RINDER: With the actual complaint, itself?

MR. ARMSTRONG: With the complaint —

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In the complaint and with supporting affidavits.

MR. RINDER: Right. Because that, then,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5096

comes out in the press, rack, rack, and that becomes the substance of the suit —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That becomes the substance as far as the people inside are concerned, because that’s what they go for. “Oh, they were all off policy. They are all went awry.” — Or —

MR. RINDER: I get it. I get it. I mean, we can get that into the press. That would be the angle that could be run like PR mediawise. That’s what you mean, that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: PR media is one thing, but, you know, to your own troops.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. That’s what I mean by the PR stuff. That would be the way that would run, then.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Make another note. I want to, I want an address, PO Box that’ll work.

MR. RINDER: I can set up a PO box. (Inaudible.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: Need a phone number. Need some way — because if I don’t have — if I don’t have our common friend Danny, I have no means of contacting anyone and essentially, I’m out here alone. Right?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. I’m little leery of the phone number. The phone number has got to be some

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5097

sort of fucking pay phone, but then —

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Well, I want a list of pay phone numbers. I got three from Joey, so that if he says call one, I know to call that pay phone. I got that the other day. But I want a whole damned apparatus worked out, otherwise we — you know, we don’t have enough capabilities. It’s too — It’s too damned cumbersome and it’s also — it’s unworkable for me to always drive up here, and for me to always meet in more or less these environments. It can’t work.

MR. RINDER: Okay, I agree. I mean we can — We can set up to meet anywhere you fucking want. The only limitation on that is my ability to be away without creating undue concern about my not being there.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We need to work out those sort of situations, too.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We need to work out a number of things so that people can get out. I can help with that. As I explained to Joey, you know, the Sea Org is so — you know, freaked out about PTSA situations and PR flaps, you can use it to your advantage. You know, “My cousin just got into town

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5098

and he knows you live here somewhere, so you had better go see the asshole. And his mother is anti-Scientology, so I’ve got to go handle it.”

MR. RINDER: I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That way we can continue to spring some people out of the organization, if necessary.

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Also, so we got an address to which material can be sent. We’ve got — I’d like a longer list of pay phones so that we can vary them around.

MR. RINDER: Okay. That’s good.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What do you guys want right now? What can I do? Let’s put the lawsuit aside. If you go with the lawsuit, do you want me to talk to attorneys?

MR. RINDER: Very likely. You see the other thing —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Have you talked to the girl?

MR. RINDER: You see, we are still trying to ge ahold of her. We haven’t been able to reach her yet. Frankly, I don’t know what to say other than we haven’t been able to get ahold of her. You know, Denny has been trying to get ahold of her, too.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5099

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

MR. RINDER: I’m sure she is going to show up in time, but — What do we want from you?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

MR. RINDER: I think you — I mean from my viewpoint?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Uh-huh.

MR. RINDER: Like I said before, you give me something right now. Sitting right here it gives me a different view. That is important. It is important.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, damned right.

MR. RINDER: It’s like that’s something of value.

MR. ARMSTRONG: The fact you are communicating to me is an icebreaker.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In my opinion, that is what’s needed — that’s the thing that’s needed with the organization, is to talk to everyone. I wish you could talk to Flynn. It’s unfortunate. He said it would be inappropriate because of conflict of interest. You know?

MR. RINDER: With regard to him?

MR. ARMSTRONG: In regard to you guys.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5100

MR. RINDER: With regard to us, if we had a brought a suit and we had discussions with him.

MR. ARMSMTRONG: Well, he’ll talk to anyone. There’s no problem with that, but, yeah, as far as — as far as people inside the organization. The reason is, it simply is the way attorneys work. You’ve got a client, you know, you are the client of a bunch of attorneys. You’re CSC or you’re CSI, or whatever you are.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: The client can’t go to the opposing attorney. You can go to them, but the attorney can’t talk. I can’t go to Barry (inaudible); he cannot talk to me. It would be out of line for him to approach me. It would be out of line for Peterson to talk to me.

MR. RINDER: Right. I see. As Church members, then, we would be the opposition. But didn’t he drop this thing?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who? Mike?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know what gave you that idea.

MR. RINDER: If that’s what — I never saw anything else.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5101

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh. It’s one of my many attorneys.

MR. RINDER: Do you have any cigarettes left?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I really don’t smoke.

MR. RINDER: I’m not going to be too much longer.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Anyway, it is good that everyone talks. That’s the way I see the difference between the current Scientology organization and a future Scientology organization, is that the organization and its members are not afraid to talk to anyone. There’s no more of this, “If you talk to him, you can’t talk to him.” That’s absolutely non-productive. Don’t you agree? I mean, you know, it makes people shrink that this guy’s a bad guy. If you can talk to all the bad guys — big deal.

MR. RINDER: I want to ask you a question. Why did you not answer that question about you dropping the suit?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you think I should answer it?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. If you don’t want to answer it, that’s fine.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know why?

MR. RINDER: Why?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5102

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because if it’s shown someone did it for me for a favor, that’s the only thing. Simply because the organization will construe it as a violation of their civil rights. You know they’re on a civil rights kick right now. It’s got to hurt them. It’s already been judicially stated that they are the civil rights violators. They violate their parishioners’ civil rights. But that’s why; just so that whoever did the favor is not going to be hurt. You know, what if you walked back in the organization and they say, “What have you got?” They pull that out. And you say, “Well what the fuck is this?”

MR. RINDER: I don’t take their shit like that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. Anyway, so that’s just so you can answer the question. It really doesn’t matter does it when the thing is what it is? Right now I will not proceed with anything to do with trying to find you guys an attorney. I gather that the one attorney was not all that hopeful.

MR. RINDER: No. Well, he expressed concern. He said that the causes of action were the correct causes of action, but that the factual allegations —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5103

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: — they gotta be — we’ve got to check them out and make sure they’re factual allegations.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s what Mike has been saying all along. How much does the organization spend on PIs? How much has the organization paid Ingram?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: How much have they paid Peterson?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. I don’t know how much. I don’t know how much —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are you able to get that kind of information?

MR. RINDER: We may be able to. We may be able to get that. But, see, that gets into this question of then, is that — is that a suit that is going to win? Is that a suit that’s going to get us into a position where we actually come out on top?

MR. ARMSTRONG: You can win.

MR. RINDER: I mean, I don’t know what the defense would be to that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We had to do it because you are being attacked.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5104

MR. RINDER: It’s not illegal and not a loss. I see that as being a very — a very — it’s a gray area and it would depend a lot on the public opinion that is generated surrounding that. You know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, there is two things in it —

MR. RINDER: It’s a legally arguable —

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you get my note which explained that you can proceed, you can make an issue of corporate control without alleging anything.

MR. RINDER: I don’t follow that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, there are hundreds of lawsuits. That’s generally what lawsuits — you know, a lot of times a lawsuit has that form, it is simply disagreement over who has control of corporate funds. That is simply the issue there are alleged there was any criminal misconduct or illegal use of the funds or anything.

MR. RINDER: So this is alleging it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s right. The reason for that is because with that, if you can get any of those things, then you — then the Court can act immediately to freeze the accounts.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5105

MR. RINDER: So unless we have criminal stuff in there, there isn’t really any basis for —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Not criminal stuff, necessarily. Do you have information on the — on the — the boat in Clearwater?

MR. RINDER: I know about the cycle. I mean I know of it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It happened; right? They paid a lot of money.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, but see, like this is — that there was a scheme to compromise those guys with prostitutes. You know —

MR. ARMSTRONG: So? So there wasn’t. But there lease was — they were lease was a boat. Was there a closed-circuit TV camera? Were they videoed?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. I presume so. If that was the purpose of setting it up, I guess that’s what we read. You know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you know that that took place — You see you have to realize the way things are on the outside, you know, that gets into — that gets into — you know, entrapment.

MR. RINDER: It’s not (inaudible). It’s like bad, bad, business —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5106

MR. ARMSTRONG: No, I don’t think it’s bad. But when a church is doing it, it looks ludicrous. You can say that all the things — you know, if I was hassled by PIs for some time, okay? You can say, “Well, shit, you got PIs following anyone.” Except the way the Court looked at it was, if indeed these things are true, then perhaps this thing ought to be tried across the street in the Criminal Court’s building. That’s the viewpoint that you have got to have. These things are illegal. You can allege the illegalities. You can — I don’t know what people inside know about what Ingram has done or what — even though it’s affidavits authored by the people up at — Mayo’s group. The operations by PIs to discredit someone, the whole thing with Flynn, that thing, itself, is a gold mine to you guys. Just to simply say, you know, the organization funds have been used to attack and discredit and intimidate and harass this one individual, that’s the kind of stuff. And what’s happened in the organization? You know, do you know of anything about the use of PC folders?

I was called by someone — I guess it was Joey — before I went to the UK at the end of June, something about — you know, my PC folders were

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5107

being moved somewhere and there’s a possibility of getting them. Someone in your group knew it about someone knew that PC folders were being moved around. Someone has been involved in the last two years in going through PC folders. Right?

MR. RINDER: Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Have they? Why were my PC folders moved?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know why they were moved.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Where were they coming from?

MR. RINDER: Coming from the CW.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What were they doing in CW? I was never at CW.

MR. RINDER: I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Where were they going to?

MR. RINDER: That’s real circumstantial stuff.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You get the idea. You know, what if someone has has been — Was someone held? Has anyone been held in the organization? What’s the situation in there? Do they —

– – – –

THE COURT: We will back up to that right there. Make a notation of where that is so we can start in the morning at that. We will back it up so

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5108

we can get the context.

April 16, 1985

(Following proceedings held in the presence of the jury.)

THE COURT: Good morning. All right. Why don’t we catch the lights and we will go back to where we ended the tape.

(Continuation of the playing of videotape.)

– – – – –

MR. Armstrong: …to attack and discredit and intimidate and harass this one individual, that’s the kind of stuff. And what’s happened in the organization? You know, do you know anything about the use of PC folders?

I was called by — I guess it was Joey — before I went to the UK at the end of June, something about — you know, my PC folders were being moved somewhere and there’s a possibility of getting them. Someone in your group who knew about it, someone knew that the PC folders were being moved around.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5110

Someone has been involved in the last two years going through PC folders. Right?

MR. RINDER: Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Have they? Why were my PC folders moved?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know why they were moved.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Where were they coming from?

MR. RINDER: They were coming from the CW.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What were they doing in CW? I was never at CW.

MR. RINDER: I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Where Were they going to?

MR. RINDER: That’s real circumstantial stuff.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You get the idea. What if someone has been — Was someone held? Has anyone been held in the Organization? What’s the situation in there? Do they have guys who frisk people when they come in and out? It doesn’t happen? So you can get whatever out you want?

MR. RINDER: Yeah, I can get out anything I want. (Inaudible)

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know. In any case they went through a very elaborate, very elaborate

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5111

way of keeping things for the bottom of the fucking trash cans sitting out there —

MR. RINDER: They were more into that sort of shit than I am. I mean, I can walk in and out with stuff. You know, what is it that I walk in — you know, I don’t totally follow where that — where that leads.

MR. ARMSTONG: Where it leads is simply, number one, what’s the atmosphere inside. You know, in a complaint, you are going to have to state the facts as you know them. I don’t know, maybe there are no facts. Maybe it never happened and maybe Ingram doesn’t even work for the organization. I mean the fucker threatened to put a bullet between my eyes.

MR. RINDER: Are you kidding me?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Did you guys get the tape? I — as I understand it, the tape — I don’t know. I think I’m probably being set up. This thing here is hotter than a pistol. Anything I send you guys —

MR. RINDER: You mean this draft?

MR. ARMSTONG: (Inaudible) of whatever I sent in to —

MR. RINDER: I’m the only one.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You are the only one? That’s

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5112

not what I sent in.

MR. RINDER: Which? This?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: This is the copy. The other one’s stored.

MR. ARMSTRONG: how about the one that the girl had?

MR. RINDER: You got it back.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So there is at least two?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. I know exactly where they are at. There are two copies and I know exactly where they are at. It’s not like I left them with complete ignoramuses.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Not at all. In fact, you know, I’m in a more vulnerable position, because I can be — you know, I’m so visible. What if I dropped out of sight?

MR. RINDER: We’d need you.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Not necessarily.

MR. RINDER: We could set it up so that if you just dropped out of sight —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s beneficial. Maybe you can drive the organization —

MR. RINDER: What?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know. Do you have

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5113

some old intelligence personnel in there?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Guys who think this stuff? That’s the problem that I see, is, you know, the intelligence possibilities are enormous because the organization is an intelligence operation, so it’s vulnerable. It exists on secrecy and the need to know, so it’s vulnerable along those lines. An open society is not nearly as vulnerable. What if they find out — You know, there is no real down side with me. But they’re vulnerable, and we are not as vulnerable as they are. You know, they are bigger because they have all the bucks. But I don’t see that that’s any problem in the long run. (Inaudible)

MR. RINDER: That’s very true. That’s very true. I mean, that’s one of the things that we have got to try and preclude because, if we get into that position, they don’t want to spend all of the fucking money to handle fucking lawsuits.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s right. That’s not Scientology.

MR. RINDER: Right, it isn’t. You are right. That money —

MR. ARMSTRONG: It shouldn’t be spending its

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5114

money on that; it should do something decent in the world. Something decent can come out of it, not just a lot fat folders and sec checks and broken families. That’s crazy. So —

MR. RINDER: So what if you dropped out of sight? I didn’t totally follow the progression there. What advantage would that be?

MR. ARMSTRONG: It could possibly be a great deal of advantage. But —

MR. RINDER: I’m not following that. I’m not — You mean we could maintain a comm line with you even though you were not as visible to everybody else in the organization?

MR. ARMSTRONG: When someone drops out, it really excites people. You know what I mean?

MR. RINDER: Like Terri Gamboa and Gerry Armstrong —

MR. ARMSTRONG: If that were to happen, then —

MR. RINDER: Don’t you think that would just attract more attention to you and make it more difficult for us?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t — I don’t see why, necessarily.

MR. RINDER: Okay. So what do you see in

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5115

that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know everything that can be developed, but possibly I see — I see the possibility of removal of the PIs. Say they remove the PIs, they’ve got to set up their own internal information apparatus again.

MR. RINDER: Uh-huh.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right now, you guys — it’s all done by the PIs. Who has the PI reports?

MR. RINDER: They go to — They go to OSA Int.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Where is that?

MR. RINDER: You mean what building? It’s about the same as Pac.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who’s in it?

MR. RINDER: ASHO Int?

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Witness nodded head.)

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. Possibly —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are they in a position where they can find out what’s going on?

MR. RINDER: Not necessarily everything, but they — there is definite lines.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are they in a position where they can — they can get current strategy? Are they in a position where they can get PI reports? Can they find out who are the operating PIs currently?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5116

MR. RINDER: Probably.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because what if the operating PIs — what if someone can do some leg work on finding out who the fuck they are and find out what the fuck they have done. Ingram is a rather unsavory character. If you were to put together that in itself, if you were to put together, you know, a sheet on these people — let’s say you come up with some criminal past. Let’s say you come up with some real sleezy dealings, that in itself is commended PR leverage.

MR. RINDER: Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Maybe you can’t necessarily do all those things. Maybe CID can run a make on them. CID asked for — you know, who took photographs and gave me a license number. I got a partial license number, but I couldn’t get the whole thing. 1DD, or DD something. A couple of D’s in there.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I would like to — I mean they can do it. They will run checks.

MR. RINDER: On what basis will they do that sort of shit?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, anyone who talks to

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5117

them is a witness.

MR. RINDER: You know — How are you going to call the fucking CID and say, “Can you run a make on this car?”

MR. ARMSTRONG: I want to know because I’m a witness. If I can get the guy, we can have his ass down there. I’ll subpoena the guy. That’s the kind of liaison where, you know, we can actually — you know, cause a lot of things to happen if there is this kind of detailed information going back and forth. You know, if I know the name of the guy, we can issue a subpoena for him, find out what the fuck he was doing there, on what basis he was photographing me. You know, that’s the kind of stuff. And you will back the fuckers off.

MR. RINDER: Do you feel like it would be best for you to drop out of sight to pull that sort of stuff off?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Not necessarily. I’d just see that — I know that that excites the organization when you can’t find somebody.

MR. RINDER: We don’t want to excite them. I’m a little lost on that as to why we would want to excite them about you. I mean, if you are our comm line —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5118

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you don’t — you don’t have anyone else whose life you are potentially in control of around here, you know, in a position such as myself, someone wwho — someone who could excite them. I mean I have excited them; right?

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There’s been times when it was get-Armstrong week; right? The same thing could happen again. And maybe this time when it happens they can be set up. Maybe you can get what you need.

MR. RINDER: And do something?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I can do something. I don’t know the form it can take, but I know that if you got some intelligence personnel in there and you give them the idea, I mean there is a lot of things that can develop. You know. With our existing communications line, it’s such a unique situation, that it can be developed into anything you want. I think that we should be a lot more secure than we have been, because I do not believe for a second that — you know, that the PIs do not tap phones.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I think that they they do.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5119

And I also think that the PIs are not necessarily telling the organization what the fuck is going on.

MR. RINDER: You think they might be, like scared of leaks?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, they are possibly scared of leaks, sure, because they don’t want to — If you were being paid what they’re being paid, wouldn’t you want to maintain this thing? If you look at whose got a vested interest in the lawsuits continuing, it’s the attorneys and the PIs. You got people on the top, too, because that’s how you keep troops in line. You gotta have enemies, and they know it and they play it. But the attorneys, you know, who recommend that they file more lawsuits and more lawsuits, they are crazy. They’re just prolonging it, because no one —

Look at the stats. In the last two years has anyone — three years has anyone backed off from the organization? Have they had any wins? They probably count them as wins, but give me a break. Also there’s more documents out right now. There is more people willing to talk. They went after Mayo, and what did those fuckers do? Ended up talking to the Feds. You know, whoever in their wisdom is running this thing is doing a fucking botched job,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5120

which is another reason why, you know, you guys would be smart to move in, because, you can’t keep driving away the parishioners forever and end up with any money.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know. And I’m involved in this because, you know, in a sense it’s where I live. In another sense, you see, I’m very altered at getting out of the organization, because I don’t give a fuck anymore. I don’t have the thing about life and death that I used to have. In fact, I would rather welcome a bullet. In a sense it puts me in a rather powerful position. Not that I’m looking for it, not that I really contemplate doing it myself, but I don’t care. I mean if you guys can view the fact that I don’t care, and the fact that I’m right, and the fact that I disappear, and other facts which you can use —

I mean I envisioned it at the outset that potentially you guys could develop an intelligence apparatus which the organization does not have currently simply by scooping the PIs. If you had some intelligence on Armstrong, you know, you could get a feather in your cap and possibly move up in that way to the point where you’re let in on what

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5121

the fuck’s going on. Or someone — you know what I mean? If suddenly you are the only guy who has — you know, let’s say someone in the organization that had the sense to retain a mole somewhere. Let’s say that someone — we could set it up so someone got close to me, then you’ve got your intelligence network. And then back the PIs off because you don’t want them fucking up.

And suddenly you are getting funding to get them intelligence and you don’t give a fuck if they did or not, but they get real excited about it. The people at the top get excited about little — this happened and that happened. They start buzzing about it; right?

MR. RINDER: Uh-huh.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You should give them something to buzz about. I don’t know the formula, because it’s so unique. I don’t know your capabilities or who you’ve got on the outside or, you know, the communication lines by which it could happen. We could set the whole goddamned thing up so that — so that you’ve got someone from the organization in the same apartment complex that I live in, that I moved to. Do you know what I mean? Possibly in that way, you can have enough

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5122

information so that it makes sense for your contacting the people at the top about it.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. RINDER: And becoming part of the plot simply because your the guy who’s got it, and they’re going to depend on you. You follow me?

MR. RINDER: Right. I’m following you.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5123

MR. ARMSTRONG: There’s a lot of possibilities. How they can be worked out, I don’t know. But I know that — I know that if we determine to say, “Okay, (inaudible) keep the lawsuit on the back burner, you know, attrition goes on as ever it goes on. And now let’s — let’s see what else we can do.”

I don’t know what can be done between us. Obviously I can get you information as it becomes available to me, you know. And hopefully you can do the same for me. I mean that’s a very valuable thing, just to know — you know, who filed — or who photographed me. That’s valuable because it can be used, because you can get — The organization can be nailed for intimidating witnesses. I’m a federal witness; you can’t go around photographing me.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So some stupid fuckhead in the organization tries to be a hero. I would like to know who it was. You haven’t heard anything about the manuscript?

Probably, my guess is that it will only go to the top, very top. But the fact that I’m writing a book, the organization can’t stand people that write books. You know, it was done to people who have

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5124

written books before. The same thing is true here. And the book is — you know, they know that I’ve got data and they know that I can spring it together.

MR. RINDER: Right. Maybe — Maybe it would be —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know either. But I know that there are a lot of things that can be worked out. I would kind of hesitate to do them if — you know, if we are going in different directions. I think that —

MR. RINDER: I don’t think we are going in different directions.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t think so at all. I think both of us, you know, want to see the organization transformed into something decent.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s what I want to see, because when it’s something decent, I can deal with it, and everyone else can deal with it. You know, we can get on about life and, you know, whatever is valuable in life. It isn’t valuable to me to continue to battle that organization. But I’ll continue to do it. And I think that everyone else —

MR. RINDER: Why do you do that?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5125

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do what?

MR. RINDER: Why are you continuing to battle with it?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, because it’s natural. Philosophically I see that it has to be transformed. I mean —

MR. RINDER: Like you have a right to personal —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you think after fifteen years I can say, okay, I can walk away from that? Come on. I put as much into it as you did. I put my whole fucking life into that thing.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: To say that I’m any less a Scientologist than anyone else is bullshit. But I have a higher commitment to the truth than I do to some label, which is at best is a symbol of a symbol of a symbol. At this point, it’s becoming virtually meaningless to say what was a Scientologist is no longer a Scientologist.

MR. RINDER: Right. Yeah, I understand that. That’s for real.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t have anything against Hubbard. Not a damned thing. I think that — you know, I guess the ultimate thing about Hubbard is

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5126

that he is exactly like us. Exactly. Not a fucking particle of difference. And he didn’t rise above the bank.

Such things may be possible. In facts, since getting out of the organization, more has happened, you know, mentally than the whole time I was in it, to the point where, like I say, I’m radically altered. I was never like this inside. You never even heard from me inside.

MR. RINDER: I saw you screaming around the between decks every now and then.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Rarely. You know. That’s a whole different thing.

MR. RINDER: So what do you think? Where are we — Where do we go from here at this point? Like, we still gotta — I mean I’m — You said a number times that regardless of the lawsuit, regardless of the lawsuit, regardless of the lawsuit. This is still something that I am interested in proceeding with if we can get it into a framework where it’s something that we can actually pull off. I’m not interested in it if we are just going to end up crucifying ourselves by bringing a suit. And I’m not, going to be stupid enough to do that. I —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I know. And again, I think

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5127

that it has a tremendous possibility. It has tremendous possibility and it really doesn’t matter about the outcome. It may to you, in some — in some fashion right now. But you have to think that that cuts you off from Scientology or what you — you know, what you consider important. God, it may even be a temporary setback. But that’s the most it can be. You know, I think, fuck, grab the bull by the horns. Sue the fuckers. I mean, that’s —

MR. RINDER: We’ve got to go into this thing with something that has good grounds.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. And that’s why you guys have to come up with affidavits. And you should be sending —

MR. RINDER: That was the question that I asked.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Send me the fucking affidavits.

MR. RINDER: From who? From our guys?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, now we are talking. Your guys, yes. It would be real smart if your guys, who worked in the organization, whoever decides to do it, whoever says, “I’ll take the fucking plunge.” You know, Mike said that we’ve got seven or eight. He also said, you know, use three or four outside.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5128

In other words, get an affidavit from Schomer, because Schomer can give you the money. He can say this amount of money was sent to the (inaudible) corporation. Schomer can say thirty million in a given period. That’s big bucks. Okay? Schomer, Nelson, maybe someone else on the outside. I don’t know who. I really don’t know. And let’s say you had a few guys on the inside, guys who decided, I’ll take the plunge. And you don’t have to throw all your eggs into that basket. And —

MR. RINDER: And what do we want on these affidavits from these guys? I mean, I’m still —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You want anything that is known about monies, the organization; number one, going to a profit corporation ASI; number two, control by ASI.

MR. RINDER: ASI. Control by ASI. Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Control by ASI. Use of organization monies for whatever reason. You guys can come up with the reasons. Okay. The boat in Clearwater. These are the only things I know about in the last couple of years. The Clearwater deal. The frameup of Mike Flynn. Anything that you know about PIs to harass individuals. Anything you know about — about — you know, money being spent for

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5129

what you would consider, anyone would consider noncharitable purposes — you know, to destroy people. You know, the control — Where is the control? I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: I’m seeing what you are talking about. These guys have to have, like, personal knowledge of this shit or what? I mean — From what I understand, when you write an affidavit, you have got to, like, find guys who have —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you have any personal knowledge?

MR. RINDER: Some. Some. But I’d —

MR. ARMSTRONG: What’s wrong with Flynn?

MR. RINDER: I’d rather not. I’d rather not — I mean, as soon as I — as soon as I was to write an affidavit, then that is going to go somewhere with my name on it, wherever it goes, to our attorneys.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Don’t even sign the fucking thing. I want some affidavits so that they can be — so that you know — What the fuck is this? What are the allegations? You know, because I’m — I mean, I’m kind of getting from you, “Well, shit the organization is fine. It’s not doing anything illegal.” And I’m sitting here on the outside,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5130

knowing that they want me fucking dead, and that I was threatened by Eugene Ingram. He was going to put a bullet between my fucking eyes. I know that they are up to their eyebrows in it. They must have paid — I mean — how much in — How much did they pay?

MR. RINDER: Do we have to find someone that has personal knowledge of that in order to get an affidavit of those things?

MR. ARMSTRONG: How much was paid to Ingram?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. I don’t know that they did.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who paid? Who paid Ingram?

MR. RINDER: I presume the attorneys paid him.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, but it comes from your money.

MR. RINDER: Right. So it would be how much is paid to the attorney; right? I mean that’s what we want to know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who gets an accounting of what, you know — Your Board members. Your fucking Board members. The guys on the Board can’t find out? Those are the people that should be signing it — should be doing it.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5131

MR. RINDER: I’m not asking about whether they can find out, but whether they need to in order to be able to do this. Do you see what I’m saying?

MR. ARMSTRONG: They can allege it. They can allege it. They don’t even have — They can allege it.

MR. RINDER: So they don’t have to, like — They don’t have to have the — you know, documents sitting in front of them and —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You can say the organization destroyed the document. Your organization destroyed it. But you can simply say, you know, upwards of millions of dollars have been paid, and fucking attach the goddamned — If you attach freedom and say that the whole thing is crock of shit, that — fucking — you know, a Court has to look at that seriously. You know, the fact that — you know, how about — how about — Oh, mailing lists. Can you get mailing lists? Who — Who got freedom? How much was paid for freedom? Who was it sent to? You know, how about these issues being put out on people? Who gets them? How much money is spent on that shit?

MR. RINDER: Is that all going along this same line of —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5132

MR. ARMSTRONG: The fact that organized — number one, there is — you have to say there is a conflict, a disagreement about control of funds. Number two, we are requesting the assets be frozen immediately. And the reason is this, this, this and this. Organization that is supposedly a religious organization, is spending nonprofit funds to destroy someone’s reputation. They are paying private investigators millions of dollars to destroy someone’s reputation. Fabricated evidence. You can allege that.

I have a lot of faith in Mike Flynn. You know, I really don’t know one way or the other whether or not that the Tamimi thing is bullshit. But I have also spoken to the U.S. — Deputy U.S. Attorney in Boston, and everything I get from anyone is they are going on the basis that it’s bullshit and will uncover it sooner or later. They are trying to extradite Tamimi right now.

MR. RINDER: That’ll be a real PR coup.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And I’m saying, you guys can allege it. Also, I mentioned to Joey last time, I don’t think anyone has to get in a frame of mind where if they don’t file this thing two days following the indictments, like they have to take a

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5133

big loss on it, I wouldn’t — you know, within your group, I would let them know that, you know, the timing is not that critical. It’s more sensible that everything be well-done and well prepared and well thought out.

MR. RINDER: Right. I completely concur with that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: However, you know, I would not delay years.

MR. RINDER: As a matter of fact —

MR. ARMSTRONG: So — Just so the boys inside don’t take a big loss on, “Fuck, no, we didn’t do it when the indictments happened.” It can be done. And also I think something should happen in the next couple of months.

You guys should fucking get affidavits. You know, probably the boys — some of them aren’t writers; right? It’s a real pain. I know. I have written — There’s all of these things. You see, it isn’t just organizational. There is all the personal conflicts and all the egos that are all involved in the whole thing.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And the — You know, but — Get me what they can. Part of what I —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5134

MR. RINDER: What do you want to do with it?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I want to fucking see what can be done. Otherwise —

MR. RINDER: You want to just sit down and go over it?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I want to go over it, I want to have them and I want to give them to an attorney. I want to talk to the girl, and I want to set up an office, and I want to set up a separate corporation. I want to set up a corporation which is — which will act as, outside the organization, a clearing house for improving conditions inside, just the same way as OSA is currently requesting all these knowledge reports. Set up an office somewhere and, via the organization’s own mailing list, get knowledge reports on the guys at the top, with the intention of — there is so many things that can be done. And I want to set up with — you know, with her, an office so that — so that, you know, you guys — you know, you don’t all own typewriters. You don’t type?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know if there is too much problem getting access to typewriters.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: Everybody doesn’t have a

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5135

typewriter, that’s true.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. And you can’t be sitting at your desk typing up an affidavit.

MR. RINDER: That’s very true.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You see? So you’re going to need someone — you know, you can give me a rough draft and, you know, we can rework it and send the damned thing back in and type the signature.

MR. RINDER: Good.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s the kind of thing (inaudible). That’s why I want to see her, because I told her, I would say — initially I would say, “I think twenty thousand bucks to an attorney and we need to set up, you know, a clerical office somewhere.” I can’t continue to do it. My wife can’t continue to do it, but I can do it if we have sum funding. I mean, I stay completely fucking broke during this shit.

MR. RINDER: I’m not making a million out of it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Is there any information on what the guys at the top are paid? The boys in the ASI? What is the control?

MR. RINDER: ASI — I mean I can find out what — what the guys, CSI people are paid. ASI? I

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5136

don’t know. We can find that out from Homer.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That way it was back then. They were making a lot of money.

MR. RINDER: Well, I doubt that that’s changed. We could get that from Homer. That’s a line that could be used via you maybe to get that stuff from Homer.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are organization funds being sent elsewhere? And you can say, “Well, it’s all legitimate because those are the agreements.” Who the fuck signed the agreements? Where are the agreements?

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, if you are a Board member, are they just figureheads or just some jerk they pulled in and said, “Here, sign this whenever we bring them around”?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know whether I would characterize them as jerks, but —

MR. ARMSTRONG: They are treated like jerks, I’m saying.

MR. RINDER: Everbody is a bit of a jerk that gets treated like jerks right now. You know what I mean.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Simply because the attorneys

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5137

are running it.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. I mean —

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) Hell, enough of this fucking bullshit, the organization being run by attorneys. That’s bullshit.

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Anyway, — Anyway, organization funds are going elsewhere where they ought not to be. Let’s just say that, you know, CSC can do something or that — are the Board members knowledgeable enough of legal things to be able to find it? Where the fuck are the minutes kept? What are the agreements? Where is this — Where is this — Who represents CSC? Who keeps all this shit?

MR. RINDER: Right. I don’t know that they need to be legally knowledgeable to be able to find out where that stuff is.

MR. ARMSTRONG: How do we get a copy of it?

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Let’s find out what the agreements are, let’s find out who signed them and then let’s go talk to who signed them and find out the circumstances under which they signed them. Where are the agreements?

MR. RINDER: Okay.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5138

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know the way I see this is ultimately going? Probably the organization will end up suing all of its former attorneys who have given you guys fucked legal advice. Just fucked advise, because it’s cost a lot of money, no return, and the organization’s public relations stance is worse than it’s ever been. All the PIs are brought on everyone, with all their wisdom, and are potentially a bunch of indictments and a lot of ill will. And that’s malpractice any way you slice it.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And look at the possibility of finding out how many people — how many Board members does it take to form a quorum, and the form of their resolutions and —

MR. RINDER: Whether they have to be at a meeting or someone can resolve something and pass it around for signature?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Sure. If you have Board members, do they ever have a meeting? That alone. What if he says, “Well, you know, we never have meetings and it’s all bullshit and I just sign things”? You know, if it’s all a facade, that alone —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5139

MR. RINDER: Yeah, I’ve got it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: But If it isn’t a facade, and the Board can actually do something, the Board members have a vote, then maybe one day during a Board meeting something can be said, that maybe we need some new attorneys. We ought to get an assessment. Or how about just a resolution drafted and signed by enought people so that it can happen. And then you’re indemnified.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5140

The fucking — The fucking board decided to get some more attorneys. And then other people, you know, contact the attorneys, not necessarily the old ones who are all entrenched.

MR. RINDER: Uh-huh.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, independent attorneys. You can look at it like, you know, all our legal things — Let’s say that the agreement is that all legal matters are handled by CSI. Number one, that’s probably illegal; number two, it sets CSC up to take the fall, then they don’t have control of (inaudible) Right? You’ve got to find out who deals with the attorneys. Does the Board deal with the attorneys? Who does?

MR. RINDER: The Board doesn’t deal with the attorneys.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who does?

MR. RINDER: There’s — Well, for the most part there’s — you know what OSA is?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: The guys in OSA deal with the attorneys.

MR. ARMSTRONG: OSA is — Do they develop legal strategies?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5141

MR. ARMSTRONG: Or do they get direction from above? I mean is CSC independent or is it not? It’s not?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. It depends on which context that question is framed, you know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In reality.

MR. RINDER: I don’t think that you can really say that any of the Church is independent, any of the — You know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. Now they allege independence, of course, in terms — like if I were to sue CSC or if I were to — you know, they allege independence, that’s the way they get arouond the various lawsuits. All that’s a single corporation. Right?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know, Gerry. I don’t know the answer to that question. I presume that —

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) a separate corporation?

MR. RINDER: From which?

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible.)

MR. RINDER: Yeah, as far as I know, that’s run completely separate.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do they operate separately or are they underneath — are they subject to Sea Org

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5142

personnel coming in and telling them what to do?

MR. RINDER: I presume they would be subject to that. You know, that would be the way that I would see — sure, if some missionnaire walked in there, that that — they’d sort of stand up and salute, you know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s because it’s not independent. You know, missionnaires can’t walk into the corner grocery store and say, “Listen you guys, give me ten percent of your take.”

MR. RINDER: Isn’t that ecclesiastic?

MR. ARMSTONG: Fuck. That’s the differentiation. You guys got — you guys are bought. You know, when I was in the Sea Org, we never even fucking had the word “ecclesiastic.” That was a — That is bullshit. That’s been created in order to allow the organization or allow the group at the top to retain control. And people buy it.

It’s like, you know — We never even called it the Church when I was in. It’s just all a kind of PR bullshit that people are buying, party line. And you need to make a very distinct differentiation between what’s ecclesiastic, because then you are talking the tech, whatever the fucking tech is, and

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5143

whatever the philosophy is. But when you are talking about — well, I can go in and order you to do whatever I want, open up your books; right? — and not only that, but I can go in an rip off whatever I want and I can send you to the RPF, it’s hardly ecclesiastic.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Well, okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: I mean, okay. That’s a new view. You know what I mean? That’s what I’m saying about that external — that external look at things is something of great value, because it points out things that — that have become so —

MR. ARMSTRONG: — ingrained.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. — that it’s like you don’t see them anymore. It’s like, you know, the boys have been setting the trees all around here and, (inaudible). “Look at all these trees around here,” I go, “Tree? What fucking trees are you talking about?”

Anyway, I’m a little concerned about getting in their way. You have already given me a lot of shit to talk over.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There are so many ideas, you know, it just — it’s endless. You see, I can’t

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5144

control it. I can’t control your group.

MR. RINDER: I know you can’t. And there’s no way that we can put you in the position to control it, because I’m not going to sit here and say, “Oh, yeah, well, you know, we got this guy here and this guy there, and la da da da da, because that’s a pointless breach of security, in my view. You know, why do that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. It does make sense for me. There are certain things that — that are very helpful to know. I don’t need to know who your people are, but there are certain times when I need to know, you know, can you get this information? Can you find this thing out? Do you have anyone in Clearwater?

MR. RINDER: We can get stuff from Clearwater.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Do you know where my PC folders are?

MR. RINDER: all of them?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Any of them.

MR. RINDER: Probably we could find out where those ones that were being shipped before.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know why they were being shipped?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5145

MR. RINDER: No. I don’t know why they were being shipped.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know who ordered them shipped?

MR. RINDER: No.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Can you find those things out?

MR. RINDER: Possibly, yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Make a note, you know, anything that people know about PC folders; anything that, you know, the missuse to which these things are put; any culling that has gone on; any information which has gone to PIs. Who deals with PIs? The OSA people?

MR. RINDER: Well, yeah. The way that the PI line works, as far — well, you know, on the ones that I have any understanding about, it goes from OSA to the attorneys to the PIs.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Is Peterson the main guy?

MR. RINDER: Yeah, he’s the main attorney.

MR. RINDER: He’s such a dumb shit. He’s just a political, you know. He just kind of maneuvers and sleezes his way along. He’s a fucking shitty attorney. He really is very stupid.

MR. RINDER: I’ll make sure we don’t take

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5146

that to him.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You’ve met him, eh?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. I’ve met him.

MR. ARMSTRONG: He’s fucking dense. I don’t know. I mean — But he’s a sleeze, you know, so he kind of stays in his little niche of power by sleezing and by not being the guy to take the falls on all the cases that they lose; right? He’s the fucking guy.

MR. RINDER: He’s still there.

MR. ARMSTRONG: He’s a dumb shit, too.

MR. RINDER: Well, listen —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, lay that kind of information up. Who has firsthand knowledge of that?

MR. RINDER: Of which?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Of that use of the PIs; that that’s the line. You know, money is paid to attorneys and that — and they in turn deal with the PIs. What information is given to the attorneys? Has anyone got one instance of anything from anyone’s PC folders being told to an attorney or a PI? Anything. Anything that you can think of that is just — it’s either corrupt or it’s rotten or even borders on illegal. And illegal does not

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5147

necessarily mean the commission of a crime. It just means money used for the wrong purpose.

MR. RINDER: That’s like civil, as opposed to criminal criminal?

MR. ARMSTRONG: This isn’t a civil matter.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, just to say that number one, the organization is in control of people who ought not to control it; number two, they grab power by “X” means — however they grab the power; number three, the current Board of Directors are mere figureheads, you know; number four, you know, so much money has been paid to do such and such; number five, you know, money was paid to PIs, $250,000, to entrap people in Florida. You know, so much was paid to — you know, you can just say millions of dollars is being paid to PIs to harass and frame the viewed enemies of the Organization. All those kinds of things that are not the way you want it to be. You know? What is the organization now?

And then, get damned affidavits written. I don’t care if they can’t even write, but just put down into as sensible a form as possible whatever information the people who you predict could

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5148

potentially sign a complaint.

MR. RINDER: One of the guys that would actually be the plaintiffs to do those. The guys that have — well, they’re obviously going to be the same people.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, on the other hand there are other people on the outside.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTONG: Homer Schomer; maybe Mayo, I don’t know; John Nelson; perhaps other people, who have been the subject of harassment or who know of organization monies being used improperly.

MR. RINDER: Well, you may have to help us with those ones.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I will help. I want also to find out about — about money and whether or not someone wants me to talk to attorneys.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Get me phone numbers, pay phone numbers. I’ll only call if it’s absolutely desperate. Also you guys should set up a contingency, I think. Figure something out — I will be the person if you want — so that if someone is held inside, that they are able to know that there’s some means of getting that information out.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5149

Because you know, no one wants anyone to be hurt.

MR. RINDER: That’s very true.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So figure out —

MR. RINDER: Very true.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So figure out some contingencies like that so that every twenty-four hours — if there isn’t a call every twenty-four hours, call the Feds.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Something, you know. I don’t know what form it will take, but I think we should be real smart — It’s freezing up here.

MR. RINDER: Me, too.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I think it would be real smart to develop it, you know in the park.

MR. RINDER: So — I’m not going that direction.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s fine.

MR. RINDER: What I want to do, I have quite a bit of shit to talk over here, go over with the other guys, and I will get in contact with you using the numbers that you already have for right now.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Call my place.

MR. RINDER: Give you — You got those ones from Joey, right?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5150

MR. ARMSTRONG: I got three.

MR. RINDER: I will give you one of those.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good.

MR. RINDER: You can then — I will go to that phone, you know, and I’ll tell you half an hour or whatever. You can call me there, and then I’ll set out and we’ll meet somewhere else.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good.

MR. RINDER: Then when I come next time I’ll bring another list of numbers to you —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

MR. RINDER: — and you can throw it away.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. And some means so that if — you know, if I want to —

MR. RINDER: We can set up — I don’t see there’s any problem in setting it up so that you could call a number, like even — even in Joey’s area, just call that number and leave a message for him. Not you, but —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. I understand.

MR. RINDER: — under a suitable guise. You know, your mother called and left a message and wants you to call her back or something. And he wouldn’t even have to go to the phone or anything; he would just have the message passed to him like —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5151

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know his name. But anyway —

MR. RINDER: That’s fine. That’s fine.

MR. ARMSTRONG: By the way, you are just some blond guy with a long, black beard; that’s the only thing I remember.

MR. RINDER: Right. Well, I appreciate that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. Good to see you again.

MR. RINDER: You, too. Bye-bye.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Bye.

(End of videotape on November 17, 1984.)

Notes

  1. Transcript taken from Christofferson v. Scientology:  Excerpt of Proceedings April 15 and April 16, 1985.