Court transcript: Illegal video of November 30, 1984

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE STATE OF OREGON

FOR THE COUNTY OF MULTNOMAH

JULIE CHRISTOFFERSON TITCHBOURNE,

Plaintiff,

vs.

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY, MISSION OF DAVIS, a non-profit California corporation, doing business in Oregon; CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA, a California corporation, doing business in Oregon; and L. RON HUBBARD,

Defendants.

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No. A7704-05184

EXCERPT OF PROCEEDINGS 1

(Following is video tape of November 30th played to the jury.)

– – – – –

MR. RINDER: How are you doing? I don’t have much time either.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s okay. Shoot. How are things going?

MR. RINDER: Pretty good. I have some questions to take back to the guys
because we are, like, wanting to roll now.

MR. RINDER: Good. In moving on, the first thing I want to ask you, did you
tell Samuels and (inaudible ) about us?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No.

MR. RINDER: You didn’t say anything to them about us? You mentioned to me
last time you talked to him. We are concerned this is being — you know, too
many people.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t think there’s of (inaudible) right now. (Inaudible)
called me and said he heard that — that I might know something about a
takeover. And I said, “I know absolutely nothing.” I said, “However, I think
it behooves

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5153

each of us on the outside to realize that there has to be a transition of
some things, and that sooner or later there’s going to be a shift and we all
should be thinking how indeed that should be happening and what it should be
like afterwards, and that each one of us should be creating that.” So I said,
“I have no specific knowledge, I have none whatsoever. However, something has
to happen.”

So I let them know that, yeah, they can always talk to me, and that —
(inaudible) particular positions outside the organization, obviously every I
time talk to those guys, you know, there’s an exchange of information. But
they know nothing that I could be doing about you guys. They contacted me —
(inaudible). Not by me but — you know, you guys can’t keep the lid on very
much longer.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: Her own sister told at least three maybe four, maybe more
people.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay?

MR. RINDER: We know about that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know. It’s obvious that — that’s the only leak that
I know of, of any

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5154

significance.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) — Joey contacted me to get information, and I
said, “Listen, (inaudible) — You know, I’m glad you contacted me because I
consider you guys part of the network. And frankly, you both ought to be
thinking, you know, status quo can’t exist. What are we going to do? Everyone
that I talked to led us along that direction. But as far as names, no one ever
at any time will ever get a name out of me.

MR. RINDER: Right. Exactly.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, probably a lot of people know. Probably — I would
say that the Scientology world is so bored, and they’re so (inaudible) and
frightened of this (inaudible) shit anyway — you know —

MR. RINDER: Yeah. But we just want to make sure that you are not passing
around to anybody unnecessarily or doing anything that would damage our
security.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In each case like Dave Jordan. Dave Jordan (inaudible) and
that’s fine. Dave Jordan heard a rumor that Dan might be a revelation to the
organization.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5155

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I went out and specifically didn’t get in that thing. I let
him know that, listen, Dan simply doesn’t — Dan doesn’t have anything going
with the organization.

MR. RINDER: Good. Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And I let him know that every time he talked like that he
put his life at risk because the organization has a lot of heavies working for
them. No one —

MR. RINDER: That’s exactly right. Okay that’s fine. I just wanted to make
sure.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I do what I can. I’m as sensible as I can. It’s on my mind
all the time, take it from there. By the way, no one will ever get any names,
any communications, any times, any dates or anything out of me. That’s just
the way it is. I will to go prison before I ever talk. Okay? You would have to
know that because they’ll want to depose me every couple of months. I’m simply
saying, well, anyone who tries to — That has nothing whatsoever to do with
this lawsuit. The causes of action in my lawsuit began in 1969, when I was
enticed into the Sea Organization, and ended in 1981, where the Int actually
— they continue on

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5156

because you guys have continued to harass me.

MR. RINDER: Not us.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m telling you what I’ll tell them in a deposition, but
they don’t get anything else.

MR. RINDER: Okay. That’s fine. We’re in agreement —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You guys also have to have — have your agreements worked
out between yourselves, too, like — I don’t know who knows I’m involved, but
I’ll deny it.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Well, we’re going to try the thing out.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. The only reason that I would deny it is for your guys’
skins. It means nothing to me, because I don’t give a shit.

MR. RINDER: Right. Now, on this suit, we have gotten some legal advice on
this. We have been doing quite a bit of work to gather the data. And there are
some points that are a real concern about this (inaudible). Specifically,
there are three criminal charges — there are three specific things laid out
as criminal charges, and our advice is if we don’t have the facts to support
that stuff, we are not going to be able to make any sort of PRO

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5157

stick in the hearings on the preliminary injunction.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What about Homer Schomer and what’s his name, John Nelson. I
mean — Homer Schomer, the guy was locked up, spat on and then you continue on
with that, and he knows about thirty million dollars, in a period of six
months, transferred unto LRH’s account.

MR. RINDER: You’re talking of — You know, I got that. We are talking about
the specific criminal things, not civil — because there’s a lot of stuff in
here that’s, like civil stuff. I’m talking about the criminal ones. There’s
two major ones, the first one being (inaudible) — you know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’ll tell you what. I’ll tell what you I will do. Let me
just back up a little bit. I think I have got an attorney and the guy is
fucking tough.

MR. RINDER: Well, we’ve got an attorney.

MR. ARMSTRON: Are you okay on attorneys?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Go for it then.

MR. RINDER: What we are concerned about is on this point. They’ve been
checking these out to find out what data we can find.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Let me talk to your attorney.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5158

MR. RINDER: Well, we may arrange that or are he may arrange to get in
contact with you.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You have a lot of faith in him?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. But what I’m concerned about right now is, somehow or
other in this complaint there are at least three things that are listed down.
Now, to us checking —

MR. ARMSTRONG: The complaint is based on information which he assumed you
guys would have.

MR. RINDER: Who?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Whoever wrote it. Simply because, number one, the thing
about Flynn, I don’t give a fuck — you know, Flynn is not (inaudible) for one
thing. And the second point of that is, you don’t take money which is — you
know, supposed to be used for charitable purposes and use it to defame and
scandalize —

MR. RINDER: The point I’m trying to get across is, that’s not criminal;
that’s the civil complaint. And that would have to be proven.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Show me the line you are talking about. You don’t have to
prove a goddamned thing. You don’t have to prove shit. You just have to allege
it.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5159

MR. RINDER: Like, this is a little different from circumstances. Like if we
allege that — right? — then we are not on the same position like where you
were when you had a whole trial. You were like — you know — (inaudible) The
position that you were in was — you know, the Church is not believable to
anybody. It’s like, you know, it’s got a bad reputation. That puts you in a
position where the burden of truth (inaudible). We are not in that position
because we are the Church.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You are the Church, but you guys are dedicated to the
cleaning up of the Church (inaudible) guys who have control, should not have
control. You are the Church and you should have control. And they abused
(inaudible) — illegally, because — because simply, they should not do that.
It all has to do with a crumby piece of money. Nobody gives a fuck about
(inaudible) or whether or not the money is being used correctly, and whether
or not the people who are, in fact, in control are doing it legitimately.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, but see, the thing is, what our advice is, is that in
order to make the injunction — a hearing for preliminary injunction stick,
there’s got to be some, like, criminal stuff.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5160

That we gotta be (inaudible) —

MR. ARMSTRONG: How do you propose to render that? I can’t. I told you what
I can do.

MR. RINDER: What I was really asking you is — Someone obviously put this
together, whoever that may be. Someone put it together and it would appear
that someone had data. We aren’t able to find that data. We have found stuff
that shows that, you know, what the Church has, but they’re not true. Do you
have something? Do you have something that we don’t have that we could use to
support those things?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, I told you, you could use Schomer. You could use the
fact — You could use the fact of anyone that you know of being locked up.
It’s illegal.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible) That’s the problem.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I was locked up.

MR. RINDER: Have you got an affidavit on that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have got a fucking ton of affidavits. I don’t know where
your guys’ access is in the organization. I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: Well, we can get a lot of shit. We’ve been working on this for,
like, a couple of

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5161

weeks now.

MR. ARSTRONG: You have affidavits?

MR. RINDER: Of criminal stuff, no. That’s what I’m talking about.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Anything. You know, like all those things which we needed to
document, even policy violations. How much are they paying to private
investigators? Who runs the organization? Who’s in control? That’s what
(inaudible) the Board members. (Inaudible) transition of the Board. Let’s face
it, you don’t know that. If you guys are in a position in the organization
where nothing is known —

MR. RINDER: Well, that’s not the case. But the point is, we feel and our
position is, unless we have something that’s, like, strong that we can move in
with and make a PRO stick, then going for a hearing and have it so that we can
get that protection, we are going to be real — we’re going to have real
trouble if we can’t get a preliminary injunction that sticks in a hearing.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Here’s the thing. Let me talk —

MR. RINDER: It will get thrown out.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Let me talk talk to an

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5162

attorney. I want to see whether or not, number one, the guy understands,
and number two, that it’s only a two-month appeal, anyway. You know, he
doesn’t have to stick around for years to go to trial on it. And if he does,
you guys just back out. Whoever signs it backs up and says, “Well, I signed
what I signed and you know, sorry you guys deluged us with paper. Too bad. You
know, I’m not leaving the organization,” or, “I am leaving the organization,”
or whatever they decide.

MR. RINDER: You mean kind of quit at that point, like if it wasn’t done the
way we wanted to, just pack it in?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Why not? That’s the way it’s got to be, (Inaudible) So what?
Who the fuck wants to stay in that goddamned joint where you can’t get —

MR. RINDER: I do.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I know you do, but you know — You see, I don’t know if it’s
like — If you feel it’s fine for you, then there is no reason to change it.
If it’s simply a motivatiuon of greed, then you guys are going to run into a
lot of fucking troubles, anyway. So if you think that — You know, it’s really
fucked the way things are and we

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5163

shouldn’t have all these goddamned lawsuits. We should be able to be to go
wherever we want and talk to who we want and the fucking thing should make a
lot of sense. And not only that, we shouldn’t be charging people —

MR. RINDER: That’s our position.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s the motivation; it’s fucking bullshit. Because it’s a
golden opportunity. I don’t know what — I don’t know what’s happening up in
Canada. It’s still happening; the thing has not come to fruition yet. They’ve
got today, they’ve got tomorrow. Who knows what’s going to happen? They keep
talking. The last thing we got was (inaudible) bank account. (Inaudible) The
fucking documents are coming in in the Armstrong case. The goddamned — It’s
happening. Something is happening.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. You want it to move on this. We have gathered together —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. I need — Number one, I need affidavits. Get the
fuckers to me and let me see the attorney. Because obviously the attorney is
in a situation where he keeps telling you something and he may not even have
the goddamned concept. Are you following me?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5164

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I think I’ve got an attorney and I think we should put
together twenty thousand bucks — (Inaudible sentence).

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you have got one, then (inaudible) —

MR. RINDER: We’ve got one.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Then I think —

MR. RINDER: We’ve got one, but what I’m asking you, from having checkd
these things out, if there was something else that you have —

MR. ARMSTRONG: What is it you need?

MR. RINDER: Krentzman.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

MR. RINDER: There is nothing to show you that — (inaudible)

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

MR. RINDER: And there’s Flynn.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, Flynn, we can put together. Do you know how much was
spent on Flynn?

MR. RINDER: Two million.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It doesn’t fucking matter. All that matters is that you
don’t spend two million dollars to PIs to commit a scandal like that. It is

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5165

(inaudible) patently on its face illegal.

MR. RINDER: We are talking about — Illegal? It isn’t illegal. We have
already checked that. It’s not illegal to do that. That’s the complaint that
we are bringing. That’s not a criminal matter. It’s not — That’s not a crime.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Let’s put it this way. There could be people going to jail
over it.

MR. RINDER: I know that —

MR. ARMSTRONG: It’s a civil lawsuit.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. But that’s what — It’s a civil lawsuit, that’s true.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, all you have to allege is that, number one,
(inaudible) how much was spent by the organization at the orders of these
people.

MR. RINDER: It’s alleging things — It alleges things.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s fine.

MR. RINDER: That’s going to take the whole trial, just like — You know,
I’m talking about the concern of a preliminary injunction. Alleging things is
fine and alleging things we (inaudible) in certain cases is —

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you did, have them act immediately. That’s all you have
to do.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5166

MR. RINDER: What is?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Is to say it. That’s all that needs to be said.

MR. RINDER: We have a hearing and then we have a hearing for the
preliminary injunction, that’s like —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You have a lot of things going for you. If you follow on the
tail of all these people being indicted at the top of the organization and the
fact that all —

MR. RINDER: Yeah, but wait a minute. What’s going to happen?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Hold on, hold on. Listen, we either are going ahead or we
are not. Okay? I don’t quite know what you are asking me, because I don’t have
the information on those three things.

MR. RINDER: Okay. That’s what I was asking you, if you had something else
you could get for us on those that would give us a stronger position.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s what I’m telling you. If I were to get the affidavits
on the outside from Schomer and from — and from Nelson — I don’t know if
Nelson will even talk to me, but I’ll give it a try. And beyond that, I want
to talk to the attorney. There is no one around, aside from

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5167

Michael Flynn, who has an understanding of this whole fucking thing like I
do. And that’s a fact.

MR. RINDER: Okay. I mean (inaudible).

MR. ARMSTRONG: What the fuck do you think? We talk every day about it. But
that’s not for you —

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have no intention of hurting Mike Flynn, but I’m telling
you he’s behind it a hundred percent; absolutely behind it.

MR. RINDER: Right. Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, we could use his affidavit alone, his affidavit
along with, you know, copies of the — of what they are doing. There is no
proof against Mike Flynn. There is nothing. It’s a bunch of hollow bullshit.
And people were paid, criminals. A fucking guy in jail on a murder — on
murder who paid for testimony —

MR. RINDER: Okay. Look. I understand all that. (inaudible) back before. I
just had the specific question that I was aksed. The one about do you have any
other data that specifically supports these things that we unable to get.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are you able to get money?

MR. RINDER: What do you mean, money?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5168

MR. ARMSTRONG: How much for (inaudible), how much to attorneys? Figures.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, we can get the figures.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Give them to me. Ask for them. Ask for them. I’ve got to
have fucking stuff relayed. I won’t work if —

MR. RINDER: Who you going to relay that to, though?

MR. ARMSTRONG: We’ll put the fucking (inaudible) in. Who is doing it? Who
has the scene? Do you have any people that analyze data? Do you have a
goddamned data bank? Do you have someone who’s a courier? A fucking network
setup? We have got to do it otherwise we’re — (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We’ve got to have a fucking thing that — I don’t even know
who the fucking assholes are who photographed me. And get the number of the
car. If you haven’t got a guy who can walk around out in the fucking parking
lot and get a —

MR. RINDER: Wait a minute, Gerry.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Listen to me. I am not as —

MR. RINDER: You are. You are giving me a bunch of shit like —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5169

MR. ARMSTRONG: I am trying to fucking build a fire. We can do it. I’m with
you a fucking hundred percent, but we can’t (inaudible) the time constraints
and all the other things get involved. I know you guys are under pressure.
(Inaudible.) I’m trying to work with you. But I feel — You know, I’ve got to
be frank; if you don’t get from me what the fuck’s on my mind, what good am I
to you? I’m trying to give you data as rapidly and as accurately as I can. I
have a lot of questions. You know, boy —

MR. RINDER: Okay. I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible.) Anybody who can fucking write (inaudible). Give
me a report. We can analyze them and go back in for the other specifics that
are missing.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Okay, I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) affidavits typed up or we can talk over legal
shit with the attorney, because the time is right. Believe me, I am of the
philosophic mind worrying really doesn’t matter one way or the other when it’s
done or if it’s done. But when I’m with you, I kind of try to speak my mind.

I’m not after you. I have a great deal of

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5170

admiration and respect for you because it takes a fucking lot of courage to
even walk out of the goddamned joint and to talk to me because I’m not exactly
number one in the personality list. But I happen — you know, by shear default
I’m in this position where on the outside a lot of people talk to me, and I’ve
got a fucking good legal mind and I can help out. I’m not — And I know the
guys involved and I’m not going to back down from them. I can help you.

MR. RINDER: Right. That’s what we want.

MR. ARMSTRONG: But I can’t help you — oh you know —

MR. RINDER: I’ll tell you something. I’ll tell you something. There is a
little — I mean this is making me feel a little better, what we are saying,
because there’s generally people concerned with what’s going on is that —
that you are in a position where you are giving us stuff. You are feeding us
data. (Inaudible) — What has happened so far is we’ve gotten these things and
when we check them out, it looks like, well, maybe we are going to get shafted
if we do this. (Inaudible) —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You happen to be in a position, you happen — It just
happens that I was

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5171

in a position where I heard that there’s a group inside and then things
went from there. No one has any motivation to hurt you guys or use you guys at
all. In fact, I am absolutely willing right now to say, “Listen, let’s just
end it, you know. Go back to — go back to status quo.” I wouldn’t hurt you
guys. I wouldn’t talk about you. Let’s just end it. I’m absolutely willing to
do it. On the other hand, I do this because I think — you know, I like to
talk to people, I like to talk to you guys, and the fucking thing interests me
to a great degree. It’s extremely exciting, the possibility that exists here.
But not only that, just in life and in life in general.

I approach things differently. I’m just — you know, you get what you get.
I’m not going to fuck you over. I’ll support you as much as I can. You know I
don’t have any money and you know that I’m pretty strapped just litigating my
own case. But I’ll do what I can. And that’s you will you get from me.

I’ve never in all the time I have dealt with him, I have never found Mike
Flynn to lie to me or to — or to be anything but decent. Not once. You know,
he is like I am, he’s — you know, he gets

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5172

pissed off every once in a while, a lot less than I do.

MR. RINDER: What —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s all you’ve got and that’s the whole way these things
work, it’s just on trust. That’s all — That’s all you’ve got. I don’t think
anyone is setting you up. It may happen that you feel like, “Fuck, we have
been set up.” That’s just the way live is. It pisses you off. You can’t live
in a cocoon in this goddamned place.

MR. RINDER: I understand that. All I was telling you was being up front and
telling you what — why there was some concern, what there is concern about.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You guys have got a goddamned committee; am I right? There’s
a committee?

MR. RINDER: Right, there’s a committee.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It is not a democratic committee, I know, and it is fine. I
think that, again, when you go back, whatever happens, happens. And it’s okay
with me. I couldn’t give a fuck if you guys turn me in. You know, I would be
disappointed, but I would get over it real quick because, you know, on the
other side of that disappointment is the side — you know, is a great

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5173

mound of excitement.

You guys live in an exciting time and you’ve got a shot at it. And frankly,
I’ve only met two of you, but I like the two that I met. I like Dan and I’d
like to see the whole damned thing ended and I would like to see it ended in
this somewhat exciting fashion. A lot of things are happening. I don’t know
what the fuck is going on out there, but — they are (inaudible) they are not
talking. So something is going on. Whether or not (inaudible). You know, these
proceedings. You know —

MR. RINDER: Yeah. Definitely should —

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) stir people up. I’m only one fucking guy out
here and that’s it. But I do — But I do what I can.

MR. RINDER: That’s not true; you are not just one guy. You’ve got tie lines
to all sorts of people.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Just by default.

MR. RINDER: Talking to the CID all the time, talking to all those guys.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m talking to them by default. No one has — there is no
Che Guevara around. No one’s risen from the occasion.

MR. RINDER: I’ll tell you something. What I

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5174

can’t figure out is if there’s some connection between your relationship to
us and your relationship to them. So from their side, do you see what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: You mean, are they using me?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Nobody is — Nobody has given me the slightest
indication of that. You know, every time I talk to the CID about — about you
guys, they say, “Gosh, have them talk to us.” You know, they went to talk,
they want to know about the way things are. That’s about it. I don’t know
anything — I don’t have anything to promise them. What am I going to do? You
know?

MR. RINDER: So they are interested in you, primarily (inaudible).

MR. ARMSTRONG: They are not interested in me primarily. The fact that I
happen to have particular knowledge and I happen to be to some degree, at
least, a clearing house of information. People contact me and they talk about
this and I happen to be fairly well connected. That’s about it. So they kind
of use that, but I’m not a — I don’t know — you know, what status I am as a
witness as far as they are concerned. I know the

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5175

language and I can — and I can talk it. That’s why they talk to me. And if
they have a question they talk.

MR. RINDER: I understand. I mean, you know (inaudible)

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5176

MR. RINDER: I understand. You obviously are a good witness.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m a witness and I have — and I have documents, but they
have never talked to me about the documents under seal. Other than I gave them
— I talked to — You know what a window of vulnerability is?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In law there is a certain thing; it’s kind of like a reading
of the law. It’s like a window of vulnerability at a given time, is like
something opens up. Like a window in space and you are vulnerable at that
time. And so it just happened that Judge — you remember Judge Petrous, who
let the goddamned documents (Inaudible)

MR. RINDER: He was what?

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) seal, he was talking about — and then they were
all sealed up again. And — it was just hilarious, because ultimately
(Inaudible) —

MR. RINDER: No one is — There’s no liability for that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t feel — I heard you guys’s complaint, but I don’t
feel it’s your liability. And everything that happened. Every

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5177

time the organization makes — that thing alone, you guys — by simply
saying that — that you are Scientologists and there are these documents under
seal, and frankly, Scientologists will never get to see them.

The organization has spent how much in Armstrong? It all has to be
accounted for in the various cases. So you can say, okay, the organization,
they spent ninety-three thousand dollars on PIs to push me around. It’s a
fucking crime to assault me. I got your crime. I was driven into. I was driven
off the freeway. No fucking crimes. I’ll give you an affidavit.

MR. RINDER: Okay. I don’t know anything about that. It’s like — It’s a
little incredible to me they drove you off the highway.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s right. I was driving a ’71 Datsun. He turned right in
front of me. He was a PI. I took photos of him. I’ve got a fucking bank of
photos. And you will note in — Did you read the — Did you read the result of
the hearing by Judge Breckenridge?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Did you notice — oh, later on I think you guys gave
documents, that was on

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5178

Ingram, and it was during the time we were looking into Flynn thing. Judge
Breckenridge slapped down Peterson because he said that all the testimony
regarding what the PIs did were uncontradicted. In other words, that’s it.
That’s — That is the issue. It’s been litigated. It’s right in print. That’s
what they did. And my wife was with me the whole time.

MR. RINDER: This thing that — Yeah, I understand that. I mean obviously —
that was one of the points I had. Your suit, when you were fighting your suit
there was like, you know, a little guy against this big organization that —
that tends to put you in a somewhat — you know, a sympathetic-type of
position. You know, it is like a big corporation versus, you know, some
individual.

MR. ARMSTRONG: A big corporation is one thing, but bullies is another.
That’s the —

MR. RINDER: Yeah, but regardless of that — but that’s the — one of the
(inaudible) we are not going to hand you that position. We are going to have
to establish the same sort of — you know, whatever you established in your
trial. You became believable and you became — you know —

MR. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean became

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5179

believable?

MR. RINDER: I don’t mean became. I mean you were believable.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly.

MR. RINDER: You were believable on things.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know why? Because the organization lies.

MR. RINDER: I don’t understand how that makes you —

MR. ARMSTRONG: One guy who is telling the truth as he sees it. And it’s
obvious, and you know that the organization is lying. You never see us caught
in a fucking lie.

And again, you know that the organization has bought professional muscle to
push around — guys that it — you know. You kind of doubt — you know, if
someone says, “Well, your founder is full of shit. Your founder sucks eggs.”
You don’t go out and hire a PI to push the guy around. That — You guys are so
fucking indoctrinated, you have no idea what the world is like out here. You
might do that. You guys are operated like the fucking Russians, Russion
Communist regime. (Inaudible)

MR. RINDER: Yeah. But the point of that is, — well, lying for the cause —
I mean — lying for

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5180

the cause is a — it’s — I consider this cause is something worth lying
about. I lie about it every day.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I know.

MR. RINDER: So do you. I mean it’s —

MR. ARMSTRONG: But there is a difference. There’s a fucking big difference

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — because —

MR. RINDER: You know, that’s what I’m saying is, somewhere or another we
have to be able to establish that so that that becomes our position. It
doesn’t matter if it’s a matter of positioning, it has to be, because you can
go in there and you can make allegations and everything (inaudible)

MR. ARMSTRONG: You are right. There has got to be a certain amount of PR
attached to this. Just remember all the positioning is bullshit that the
organization has involved itself in and all of its superior PR tech. Its PR
sucks. But don’t think necessarily that the way things have been handled by
the organization is — or even by me or by anyone else, is necessarily the way
to go.

You guys have a situation of being very courageous individuals who are
speaking out to

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5181

rights and wrongs. That’s it. And you are saying that the organization is
using money that you guys worked for —

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — in a wrong manner and you’re requesting —

MR. RINDER: I understand that. I understand that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So the positioning is simply — I’ll tell you what the
positioning is. The positioning is lies versus truth. Positioning is courage
versus cowardice. That’s your positioning. They lie. They lie.

Of course, they try it against all the — — you know, the — (Inaudible)
testimony for federal agencies. It doesn’t wash with the federal agencies and
with anyone.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And that’s because it’s already known that they lie. What
you are saying, “I’m fed up with my organization lying. I’m here to clean up
the goddamned act. And the way I” —

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible) So we have a better chance of making our stuff
stick; right?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, you have to prove these

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5182

things and you have to have people — you have to have real names on the
bottom of the damned things. And you have to have people who are going to be
willing to talk to the press immediately; who are going to know what the fuck
is going on and better have their language together — you know, better be
pretty fucking distant from the party line in there. Because if they’re
spewing the party line, which everyone sees as a bunch of bullshit, you are in
for a lot of trouble. But if you say we are not, absolutely not, you are here
to save Scientology, you are not here to destroy it, that again is another lie
perpetrated by the organization. Who the fuck wants to destroy it? That’s just
another lie. They lie.

MR. RINDER: I’m sorry, I thought you were saying we were going to destroy
the organization and that’s a lie.

MR. ARMSTRONG: No.

MR. RINDER: I got it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It isn’t like — it isn’t like a big thing. It’s just a
dicotomy. You are suing them because, one, you are honest and you want the
facts known; number two, they are spending money on illegal things, and here
they are: one, two,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5183

three, four, five. They are spending so much money, so go after — attach
the fucking —

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — the goddamned officials fucking freedom. Go after them.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Somewhere or another — Some way or another we accomplish
that. That’s what we’ve got to accomplish. (Inaudible) that sort of a
position. We — You accomplished a lot. I mean, and you even say that put me
in a position where, you know, I’m kind of stuck with that because I did
accomplish it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Let me give — I appreciate that. Let me just give you one
word of advice. In my opinion, it is necessary, not because of everything
that’s happening up in Canada, for you guys to act fairly rapidly, and it’s a
very logical reason. The Armstrong case brought to the surface a great number
of documents. All right?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Documents which show fraud. Right? Do you agree?

MR. RINDER: Well, I haven’t seen all those things. I don’t know what they
show and what they don’t show. I have no idea.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5184

MR. ARMSTRONG: You saw what the judge said. Be realistic, you saw what the
judge said about Hubbard.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, I have seen the judge’s order. Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s the kind of the way it is. Now, what has —

MR. RINDER: That puts —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have a fraud count. I have a fraud case; just about
everyone else has a fraud case, and they now have the documents. Fraud — A
statute of limitations for fraud runs from the date — I believe it’s a
two-year statute, and it runs from the date of the —

MR. RINDER: — discovery

MR. ARMSTRONG: — of the fraud. There is going to be a run on the bank.

MR. RINDER: I understand. I understand what you are saying.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Nip the goddamned thing in the bud before that happens.
Otherwise, you are all going to be left holding a very empty baG —

MR. RINDER: We don’t want that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — one with a lot of indebtedness attached to it. More lies.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5185

MR. RINDER: We are not interested in that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly.

MR. RINDER: And that is why — (inaudible) like, let’s move.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And that’s why you if you guys frankly want to save
Scientology, fuck them; slap those guys down.

MR. RINDER: Okay. I understand that entirely. That’s — We are moving in
the same direction on that. We’re moving in the same direction. The point is,
for us to take a look at this and make sure we are moving in the right
fashion, not in doing things that are going to fuck us up. I know you can’t
guarantee what’s going to happen. But there are certain things that you can do
to try and —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You can be real sensible about it.

MR. RINDER: We can be sensible about it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Listen. Who are the fuckers who photographed me?
(Inaudible.)

MR. RINDER: I’ll tell you something, straight up. Right now?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: I didn’t even bring the license

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5186

plate number. That’s straight up front.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You have it?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. The reason I didn’t bring it is the way I told you,
because I came here to get some data (inaudible) there was concern about you
were setting us up and therefore why should we give you —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who is the most concerned? Who is the guy in your committee
who stirs the most shit? Is it you or someone else? Who is the guy?

MR. RINDER: Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because I want to fucking talk to him. (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: No, I won’t.

MR. ARSTRONG: Frankly, I’m not (inaudible) trust you either. (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: Okay. Well, I think that will — I think that this will help on
that point.

MR. ARMSTRONG: All I’ve done is (inaudible). In any case, let me ask you a
couple of things. I would like to — you know, it’s difficult for you to get
out. I’m only going to be here possibly to December 18th. I’m going to be gone
for three weeks; I will be up in Canada.

MR. RINDER: Going home, huh?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5187

MR. ARMSTRONG: A lot of things. I’m getting — My wife and I are splitting
up. That’s for you alone. Don’t let that get inside the organization. Well,
this is fine. No problem. She’s cool and she’s protected by — you know, allow
for privilege —

MR. RINDER: Allow for privilege? I don’t know what that means.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Everything that we have ever discussed, she will not talk
about it.

MR. RINDER: Have you discussed that with her?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. She knows — she has known for some time because she was
there when Dan told all of us. She knows no names. She knows nothing else. She
knows occasionally I go out to meet people. She doesn’t know who or anything.

MR. RINDER: Is she any risk to us?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t see she is any risk to you. Everyone is a risk.
That’s what it’s all about. You run towards the risks. You stay after them and
grab them by the fucking throat.

Get me those guys’ names, please, whoever the three were. Do you know one
of them? Do you know who they were?

MR. RINDER: No, I don’t know who the people

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5188

were.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. One of them was — had reddish hair. He looks like
he’d be in his late twenties. Good looking kid, fairly tall, six one.

MR. RINDER: Okay. I know what you want on that. The problem is not knowing
what you want.

MR. ARMSTRONG: A blond guy — I guess these guys are all security personnel
— long blond hair. Those were the two that I ID’d definitely. I have seen
them around the organization.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’ve got to — You’ve go to go. I’ve got to know about your
attorney. You know, are you guys just going to take it, and what do I have to
do? I need to know, I need to know have you got any — have you got any money?
Are we really going ahead? Should I drop it with the district attorney?

MR. RINDER: Don’t worry about the district attorney right now. We have —
Our guy is handling this. We have figured out — we’ve even figured out who we
can make the external trust to. We have some work on that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. If there’s an attorney and he has questions, legal
questions to bat around,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5189

he should call Mike. The only problem with him calling Mike is, Mike is not
going to know who the fuck he is. Are you following me?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So I have to know who he is in order to make the
introduction, because without that, there is a problem. Because the guy could
be — Mike is going to think, “Who the fuck is this guy setting me up with the
organization?”

MR. RINDER: I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Is he retained? I need to know that. Is he retained?

MR. RINDER: Why do you need to know that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Why the fuck can’t I? Like I say, nothing goes beyond here.
Because I need to know what the fuck is going on.

MR. RINDER: You see, that’s where there is a slight difference of opinion,
is that we don’t think you need to know everything that is going on with us.
There is no reason for that. Why? I already told you that we have an attorney.
We have someone that’s been helping us with this and moving up. That’s
enough. You don’t need to know anything more than that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Like I say, he should — He

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5190

has legal questions, he needs someone with —

MR. RINDER: The questions about the data, about what data we have, that was
the question.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you guys have anything more? Are we —

MR. RINDER: No, not quite. Do you remember earlier you told Joey and Danny
about — about putting together some docs? They say we can do it if we get
ahold of Ingram.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I wouldn’t want to touch it with a barge pole. Don’t need
to.

MR. RINDER: Why not?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t even want to discuss that matter.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I can’t see any relation — you know, (inaudible) if that
was our aim, you know, we wanted to smack some people and really mess them up
good, we could do some things, but — I don’t have any idea on that. I think
that — You know, if you guys are going ahead, then I think that — go for it
and kind of let it shake out the way it is.

MR. RINDER: You don’t see anything in trying to push this a little harder?
Because that was — that was what we got on the original idea on that,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5191

and it sort of died, you know, sort of nothing ever eventuated from it, but
it was talked about a number of times.

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: We have access to — We have access to a lot of stuff. There is
no question that we have access to it. It’s a matter of how do we utilize it
and what do we put together?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know anything more about the Tamimi situation?

MR. RINDER: We checked all that out on this thing. We checked out all the
stuff that these guys have got; everything, we checked: all the affidavits,
photos, everything.

MR. ARMSTRONG: The affidavits?

MR. RINDER: Of those guys? Yeah.

(Someone walked by and asked them questions.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, what do you think? Have we come to an impass here?

MR. RINDER: No, I don’t think so.

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) Do you need me for any of this shit? You feel
like you have got the whole thing under control, like I can ease out of the
picture?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5192

MR. RINDER: I don’t want to do that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. But I feel like I’m, you know, kind of like — you know,
I am — kind of called up here to find out whether or not you can trust me.
For what? You know, for —

MR. RINDER: Well, be that as it may, that’s what occurred today. You know,
that’s like —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I understand. It just seems like —

MR. RINDER: I am in a bit of a strange position, because I’ve got to go
back and if I go back and do what really is wanting-to-be-heard type of thing,
it doesn’t work. And that’s all there is to it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Is there a top dog? Is there like someone who is the fucking
force behind this (inaudible)?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are you it?

MR. RINDER: No.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Is he the guy that has to be convinced? Because I would like
to talk to someone, you know.

MR. RINDER: What do you want to say to him that you haven’t said to me?
Anything?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5193

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I really want to — I want to know where does it sit
with the attorney? Is the guy going to go with it? I mean, you know, where are
the affidavits? I gotta — (Inaudible) they can be set up and structured.

(Someone came by and asked for extra change.)

MR. RINDER: I asked you about Mr. Falk. And this is sort of an additional
thing. What is the real thing as regards us not getting shafted by the
agencies (Inaudible) or if they — we make our move?
Can we get any sort of a guarantee that we won’t get shit on by the them?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I think you guys should talk to them and let them know what
the fuck you are doing and that you intend to clean up the goddamned place.

MR. RINDER: What if they say — I mean you told them about us, obviously.
(Inaudible) I mean, the trouble with that is, we would get ourselves two
(Inaudible), that’s it. We can be subpoenaed. They can do whatever they want
with us at that point.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There’s definitely a certain amount of risk in it, but
they’ll meet with you under any circumstances. And no names. But

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5194

obviously, they are looking for — they are looking for information through
the (Inaudible) lines, so they said. They’re after this guy, L. Ron Hubbard.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible) What’s your opinion on it? Where do you think they
would sit?

MR. ARMSTRONG: My opinion, again, all of them that I have dealt with, is
that they are very realistic and very decent people. You know, they are
probably hot shot American university boys who got plucked by Uncle Sam out of
their graduating classes of their respective universities and put into law
enforcement. CID is — I mean they’re gun-toters. They are like the FBI, they
are enforcement. They are not like, you know, all the other FBI cases that are
now going on. You are all looking at defensive actions. It’s like dealing with
a bunch of attorneys. FBI does not, to my knowledge, currently have an
investigation going. CID does and various other agencies do. But my opinion is
that what — what’s happened is that a transition of power will occur and then
your attorneys will be dealing with, as the organization’s attorneys have, the
various government agencies. It will just be a transition.

You simply have to
fire your old attorneys

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5195

and you have to look at whether or not they fucking misrepresented you,
whether or not they should all have their asses slapped for malpractice,
because they have taken a lot of money and guys haven’t won a goddamned suit.
Okay?

MR. RINDER: I have a question about that. What if we say, like they
obviously know about your dealing with us to some degree. Are they within
their rights to move on us for this, like trying to get us into deposition
about what we are doing with you?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. I don’t see how they can. They don’t know who you are.

MR. RINDER: But they could ask you.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, well, I will never tell ’em — you know, until you
guys say, “I want to talk.” At which point — you know, that’s just the way it
is. I will tell them I don’t know anyone’s name.

MR. RINDER: Okay. What’s the point of —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I see no downside regarding those people for you guys. They
did — Everyone I have talked to, in Justice and CID and everyone, says,
“Well, basic operators like a business.” So there is going to be a transition.
It’s gotta

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5196

change. It cannot continue. There is an awful lot of opposition to it. So
it’s going to change. And you guys, if you take over, are going to end up
dealing with the government agencies exactly like the organization does now,
the difference being you are not going to spend a billion dollars to come up
with nothing. You have got to clean up the ship. It has to be — you can’t —
you know, the organization cannot continue being so fucking righteous.

MR. RINDER: Can we go into this with a prudent — say, an expectation that
— that if we were to actually accomplish our takeover, that we wouldn’t then
have to be part of the (Inaudible) quarrel with those guys? Just like when you
said, you know, you don’t want to take over an entity which has nothing left
but just a bunch of debts.

MR. ARMSTRONG: No.

MR. RINDER: We want to take over something like (Inaudible).

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. I’ll tell you this. If you guys were to say, “Listen, we
want to take over, we want to clean it up, we are willing to make our books
available to you, we are willing to open the whole damned thing up, because we
want to know like

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5197

you want to know. We want to know where every goddamned penny has gone and
we want to know what the fuck it’s been used for. We want to know if any our
former parishioners, specifically Miscavage and company or whoever, have some
villa in Switzerland.”

MR. RINDER: Now, will we be liable for anything that had occurred through
this place? Do you see what I mean? If we are taking over now, we are the
Church. Would we then become liable if there is stuff — will we then become
liable for that? Are we going to end up being in the hot seat about that
stuff?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t see how you can be. I don’t see how you can be. What
— what cases exist? What if something has happened? You people weren’t the
organization then. You have — You know, statutes run on virtually everything
from back in the Mary Sue days. And if you are into something more current,
then I think, again, you guys have solved that problem just by filing a
lawsuit. I don’t see that as any problem. I really don’t. You know, there may
be individual things. Let’s say one of the guys hauled off and hit someone,
who was an asshole, you are just going to have to handle that.

By the way, you guys have the information on

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5198

this Scottish inn keeper?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Some asshole was held and Miscavage belted him. And it’s
criminal activity.

MR. RUNSTEIN: Well, okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m telling you —

MR. RINDER: That’s fine. I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Don’t cast that sort of stuff off, because I’ve given you
ideas and someone is going to come up with an affidavit John (inaudible)
stated this.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible).

MR. ARMSTRONG: You asked me what I knew about things. I can come up with —
The guy in England — what’s his name? — Jay (inaudible), who wrote some
document which listed out a number of people, (inaudible) Roger Barnes
(Inaudible). Somebody — you know, (inaudible) — that’s important to you
guys, because you have to get across to the immediate hearing judge what can
be expected.

MR. RINDER: That’s exactly what — That’s exactly what I was talking about
on this thing.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have been saying it all along. You guys can simply say —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5199

MR. RINDER: I’ve got —

MR. ARMSTRONG: — that’s the danger you’re in now.

MR. RINDER: I’ve got —

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: I’ve got — Yes. I do agree with that. That’s fine. Listen, I
have a question. Can you — I don’t know if you have ever even brought this up
to the CID guys. Is it — You know, would they even answer that question?

MR. ARMSTRONG: What?

MR. RINDER: What would their position be?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Their position would be to work with you guys. It would be
that. You are swapping. What you are swapping is, we will work with you. We
will open our books.

MR. RINDER: And that will give us, therefore, immunity from anything —

MR. ARMSTRONG: — that may (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: There is a liability to that. If we open our books, we are now
in charge, well, if there is something in there, do we then become liabel for
that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Why?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5200

MR. RINDER: Because who else is the head of the corporation now?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because you are there. And it is a corporation which has
been vandalized, which has been ripped off. How much (inaudible) I don’t see
how.

MR. RINDER: I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I want to talk to people. I don’t give a fuck who. I don’t
have a lot of time. You know, I’m going to be around for eighteen more days
max.

MR. RINDER:. Okay. I mean we have been trying to get ahold of you about it,
because we are moving ahead. It’s not like a stall or anything. We are moving.

MR. ARMSTRONG: When you talk to the attorney, call me in just for goddamned
information. From then, I want to talk to him and I want to put him in touch
with Mike Flynn, because he has got to get the legal — You know, I deal with
this thing on a couple of levels. First there is the minutia which we are
talking about right now, little details.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: But then there are big,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5201

broad, goddamned legal concepts which are important for an understanding of
the whole thing and the way it can be resolved. There is a lot of minutia
which I don’t know about. But the ultimate legal concepts I grasp pretty
quick.

MR. RINDER: Okay, Flynn could definitely —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Flynn is a fucking good attorney and he knows it and he can
help the guy.

MR. RINDER: He could even, like —

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: Yeah. (Inaudible)

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) one on the arm. What’s the situation with him?

MR. RINDER: Okay. Yeah, it’s a fairly good idea. Someway or another, you
have already accomplished it, so you are to some degree, you have lied.
(Inaudible) So you, to some degree, have a viewpoint. You have managed to
accomplish something, so that is definitely your taking into consideration.
You know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible) here’s. I mean to be totally frank with you. I read
that. I read the judge’s order. I find that I (inaudible) a — that you —
joined the Scientology because of what LRH

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5202

had represented as his background.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Didn’t you?

MR. RINDER: No. Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Did you think the guy —

MR. RINDER: No. I didn’t (Inaudible) —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Did you think that the guy was a pathological liar?

MR. RINDER: All I knew was that — The reason that I joined and the reason
why everybody else I know, which is why it was brought up, is the technology
made some sort of sense. This looks like something I can get interested in.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What keeps you in the Sea Org for ten bucks a week? Because
you think —

MR. RINDER: It’s the same thing. I still believe in the technology.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. Because you — you (Inaudible) supposed to help. The
purpose of it is to help Ron clear the planet. Help Ron do such and such.
(Inaudible) The fucking guy lied to us.

MR. RINDER: Anyway, that’s a —

MR. ARMSTRONG: It’s important to someone definitely on the outside. You
know, all of a sudden one day you might find — I’m not saying you will, but
all of a sudden you might find — you

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5203

realize, you know, for fuck’s sakes, the guy did lie. You know, what
exactly happened? Okay. I’ve got these goddamned levels. Am I really OT?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I thought — you know, it’s a bit of a shame about Judge
Breckenridge at this point that he’s getting attacked by these assholes, but
he’s — you know, the guy is a courageous, strong — he’s a funny man, and
that’s about it. He was extremely fair. And all this shit about comments that
he made about them is so much horse pucky, more bullshit, more lies by their
fucking (Inaudible) attorneys. It’s just pure — it just disgusts me that
attorneys are that fucking low and the organization’s got them. I got to go.

MR. RINDER: Me, too.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, if somebody can’t get out on a regular basis
(Inaudible) And just as an aside, tell them this is absolutely the last time
to you get to check me out to see whether or not (inaudible).

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: After this, they can go fuck themselves. (Inaudible).

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5204

MR. RINDER: Okay. We will be in comm.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I want to talk to the attorney. (Inaudible) Pass the word.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Drive safely.

(End of videotape.)

– – – – –

  1. Transcript taken from Christofferson v. Scientology:  Excerpt of Proceedings April 16, 1985.