The Armstrong Op

Scientology's fair game on Gerry Armstrong

Introduction 

  • about the Armstrong Op
  • The Documents
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    • IRS
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    • Other writings
  • The Loyalist Program
    • The Illegal Videos
  • Check Forgery Frame
    • Michael J. Flynn
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Court transcript: Illegal video of November 30, 1984

April 16, 1985 by Clerk1

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE STATE OF OREGON

FOR THE COUNTY OF MULTNOMAH

JULIE CHRISTOFFERSON TITCHBOURNE,

Plaintiff,

vs.

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY, MISSION OF DAVIS, a non-profit California corporation, doing business in Oregon; CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA, a California corporation, doing business in Oregon; and L. RON HUBBARD,

Defendants.

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No. A7704-05184

EXCERPT OF PROCEEDINGS 1

(Following is video tape of November 30th played to the jury.)

– – – – –

MR. RINDER: How are you doing? I don’t have much time either.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s okay. Shoot. How are things going?

MR. RINDER: Pretty good. I have some questions to take back to the guys
because we are, like, wanting to roll now.

MR. RINDER: Good. In moving on, the first thing I want to ask you, did you
tell Samuels and (inaudible ) about us?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No.

MR. RINDER: You didn’t say anything to them about us? You mentioned to me
last time you talked to him. We are concerned this is being — you know, too
many people.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t think there’s of (inaudible) right now. (Inaudible)
called me and said he heard that — that I might know something about a
takeover. And I said, “I know absolutely nothing.” I said, “However, I think
it behooves

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5153

each of us on the outside to realize that there has to be a transition of
some things, and that sooner or later there’s going to be a shift and we all
should be thinking how indeed that should be happening and what it should be
like afterwards, and that each one of us should be creating that.” So I said,
“I have no specific knowledge, I have none whatsoever. However, something has
to happen.”

So I let them know that, yeah, they can always talk to me, and that —
(inaudible) particular positions outside the organization, obviously every I
time talk to those guys, you know, there’s an exchange of information. But
they know nothing that I could be doing about you guys. They contacted me —
(inaudible). Not by me but — you know, you guys can’t keep the lid on very
much longer.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: Her own sister told at least three maybe four, maybe more
people.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay?

MR. RINDER: We know about that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know. It’s obvious that — that’s the only leak that
I know of, of any

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5154

significance.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) — Joey contacted me to get information, and I
said, “Listen, (inaudible) — You know, I’m glad you contacted me because I
consider you guys part of the network. And frankly, you both ought to be
thinking, you know, status quo can’t exist. What are we going to do? Everyone
that I talked to led us along that direction. But as far as names, no one ever
at any time will ever get a name out of me.

MR. RINDER: Right. Exactly.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, probably a lot of people know. Probably — I would
say that the Scientology world is so bored, and they’re so (inaudible) and
frightened of this (inaudible) shit anyway — you know —

MR. RINDER: Yeah. But we just want to make sure that you are not passing
around to anybody unnecessarily or doing anything that would damage our
security.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In each case like Dave Jordan. Dave Jordan (inaudible) and
that’s fine. Dave Jordan heard a rumor that Dan might be a revelation to the
organization.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5155

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I went out and specifically didn’t get in that thing. I let
him know that, listen, Dan simply doesn’t — Dan doesn’t have anything going
with the organization.

MR. RINDER: Good. Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And I let him know that every time he talked like that he
put his life at risk because the organization has a lot of heavies working for
them. No one —

MR. RINDER: That’s exactly right. Okay that’s fine. I just wanted to make
sure.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I do what I can. I’m as sensible as I can. It’s on my mind
all the time, take it from there. By the way, no one will ever get any names,
any communications, any times, any dates or anything out of me. That’s just
the way it is. I will to go prison before I ever talk. Okay? You would have to
know that because they’ll want to depose me every couple of months. I’m simply
saying, well, anyone who tries to — That has nothing whatsoever to do with
this lawsuit. The causes of action in my lawsuit began in 1969, when I was
enticed into the Sea Organization, and ended in 1981, where the Int actually
— they continue on

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5156

because you guys have continued to harass me.

MR. RINDER: Not us.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m telling you what I’ll tell them in a deposition, but
they don’t get anything else.

MR. RINDER: Okay. That’s fine. We’re in agreement —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You guys also have to have — have your agreements worked
out between yourselves, too, like — I don’t know who knows I’m involved, but
I’ll deny it.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Well, we’re going to try the thing out.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. The only reason that I would deny it is for your guys’
skins. It means nothing to me, because I don’t give a shit.

MR. RINDER: Right. Now, on this suit, we have gotten some legal advice on
this. We have been doing quite a bit of work to gather the data. And there are
some points that are a real concern about this (inaudible). Specifically,
there are three criminal charges — there are three specific things laid out
as criminal charges, and our advice is if we don’t have the facts to support
that stuff, we are not going to be able to make any sort of PRO

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5157

stick in the hearings on the preliminary injunction.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What about Homer Schomer and what’s his name, John Nelson. I
mean — Homer Schomer, the guy was locked up, spat on and then you continue on
with that, and he knows about thirty million dollars, in a period of six
months, transferred unto LRH’s account.

MR. RINDER: You’re talking of — You know, I got that. We are talking about
the specific criminal things, not civil — because there’s a lot of stuff in
here that’s, like civil stuff. I’m talking about the criminal ones. There’s
two major ones, the first one being (inaudible) — you know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’ll tell you what. I’ll tell what you I will do. Let me
just back up a little bit. I think I have got an attorney and the guy is
fucking tough.

MR. RINDER: Well, we’ve got an attorney.

MR. ARMSTRON: Are you okay on attorneys?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Go for it then.

MR. RINDER: What we are concerned about is on this point. They’ve been
checking these out to find out what data we can find.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Let me talk to your attorney.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5158

MR. RINDER: Well, we may arrange that or are he may arrange to get in
contact with you.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You have a lot of faith in him?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. But what I’m concerned about right now is, somehow or
other in this complaint there are at least three things that are listed down.
Now, to us checking —

MR. ARMSTRONG: The complaint is based on information which he assumed you
guys would have.

MR. RINDER: Who?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Whoever wrote it. Simply because, number one, the thing
about Flynn, I don’t give a fuck — you know, Flynn is not (inaudible) for one
thing. And the second point of that is, you don’t take money which is — you
know, supposed to be used for charitable purposes and use it to defame and
scandalize —

MR. RINDER: The point I’m trying to get across is, that’s not criminal;
that’s the civil complaint. And that would have to be proven.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Show me the line you are talking about. You don’t have to
prove a goddamned thing. You don’t have to prove shit. You just have to allege
it.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5159

MR. RINDER: Like, this is a little different from circumstances. Like if we
allege that — right? — then we are not on the same position like where you
were when you had a whole trial. You were like — you know — (inaudible) The
position that you were in was — you know, the Church is not believable to
anybody. It’s like, you know, it’s got a bad reputation. That puts you in a
position where the burden of truth (inaudible). We are not in that position
because we are the Church.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You are the Church, but you guys are dedicated to the
cleaning up of the Church (inaudible) guys who have control, should not have
control. You are the Church and you should have control. And they abused
(inaudible) — illegally, because — because simply, they should not do that.
It all has to do with a crumby piece of money. Nobody gives a fuck about
(inaudible) or whether or not the money is being used correctly, and whether
or not the people who are, in fact, in control are doing it legitimately.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, but see, the thing is, what our advice is, is that in
order to make the injunction — a hearing for preliminary injunction stick,
there’s got to be some, like, criminal stuff.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5160

That we gotta be (inaudible) —

MR. ARMSTRONG: How do you propose to render that? I can’t. I told you what
I can do.

MR. RINDER: What I was really asking you is — Someone obviously put this
together, whoever that may be. Someone put it together and it would appear
that someone had data. We aren’t able to find that data. We have found stuff
that shows that, you know, what the Church has, but they’re not true. Do you
have something? Do you have something that we don’t have that we could use to
support those things?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, I told you, you could use Schomer. You could use the
fact — You could use the fact of anyone that you know of being locked up.
It’s illegal.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible) That’s the problem.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I was locked up.

MR. RINDER: Have you got an affidavit on that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have got a fucking ton of affidavits. I don’t know where
your guys’ access is in the organization. I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: Well, we can get a lot of shit. We’ve been working on this for,
like, a couple of

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5161

weeks now.

MR. ARSTRONG: You have affidavits?

MR. RINDER: Of criminal stuff, no. That’s what I’m talking about.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Anything. You know, like all those things which we needed to
document, even policy violations. How much are they paying to private
investigators? Who runs the organization? Who’s in control? That’s what
(inaudible) the Board members. (Inaudible) transition of the Board. Let’s face
it, you don’t know that. If you guys are in a position in the organization
where nothing is known —

MR. RINDER: Well, that’s not the case. But the point is, we feel and our
position is, unless we have something that’s, like, strong that we can move in
with and make a PRO stick, then going for a hearing and have it so that we can
get that protection, we are going to be real — we’re going to have real
trouble if we can’t get a preliminary injunction that sticks in a hearing.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Here’s the thing. Let me talk —

MR. RINDER: It will get thrown out.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Let me talk talk to an

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5162

attorney. I want to see whether or not, number one, the guy understands,
and number two, that it’s only a two-month appeal, anyway. You know, he
doesn’t have to stick around for years to go to trial on it. And if he does,
you guys just back out. Whoever signs it backs up and says, “Well, I signed
what I signed and you know, sorry you guys deluged us with paper. Too bad. You
know, I’m not leaving the organization,” or, “I am leaving the organization,”
or whatever they decide.

MR. RINDER: You mean kind of quit at that point, like if it wasn’t done the
way we wanted to, just pack it in?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Why not? That’s the way it’s got to be, (Inaudible) So what?
Who the fuck wants to stay in that goddamned joint where you can’t get —

MR. RINDER: I do.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I know you do, but you know — You see, I don’t know if it’s
like — If you feel it’s fine for you, then there is no reason to change it.
If it’s simply a motivatiuon of greed, then you guys are going to run into a
lot of fucking troubles, anyway. So if you think that — You know, it’s really
fucked the way things are and we

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5163

shouldn’t have all these goddamned lawsuits. We should be able to be to go
wherever we want and talk to who we want and the fucking thing should make a
lot of sense. And not only that, we shouldn’t be charging people —

MR. RINDER: That’s our position.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s the motivation; it’s fucking bullshit. Because it’s a
golden opportunity. I don’t know what — I don’t know what’s happening up in
Canada. It’s still happening; the thing has not come to fruition yet. They’ve
got today, they’ve got tomorrow. Who knows what’s going to happen? They keep
talking. The last thing we got was (inaudible) bank account. (Inaudible) The
fucking documents are coming in in the Armstrong case. The goddamned — It’s
happening. Something is happening.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. You want it to move on this. We have gathered together —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. I need — Number one, I need affidavits. Get the
fuckers to me and let me see the attorney. Because obviously the attorney is
in a situation where he keeps telling you something and he may not even have
the goddamned concept. Are you following me?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5164

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I think I’ve got an attorney and I think we should put
together twenty thousand bucks — (Inaudible sentence).

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you have got one, then (inaudible) —

MR. RINDER: We’ve got one.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Then I think —

MR. RINDER: We’ve got one, but what I’m asking you, from having checkd
these things out, if there was something else that you have —

MR. ARMSTRONG: What is it you need?

MR. RINDER: Krentzman.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

MR. RINDER: There is nothing to show you that — (inaudible)

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

MR. RINDER: And there’s Flynn.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, Flynn, we can put together. Do you know how much was
spent on Flynn?

MR. RINDER: Two million.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It doesn’t fucking matter. All that matters is that you
don’t spend two million dollars to PIs to commit a scandal like that. It is

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5165

(inaudible) patently on its face illegal.

MR. RINDER: We are talking about — Illegal? It isn’t illegal. We have
already checked that. It’s not illegal to do that. That’s the complaint that
we are bringing. That’s not a criminal matter. It’s not — That’s not a crime.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Let’s put it this way. There could be people going to jail
over it.

MR. RINDER: I know that —

MR. ARMSTRONG: It’s a civil lawsuit.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. But that’s what — It’s a civil lawsuit, that’s true.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, all you have to allege is that, number one,
(inaudible) how much was spent by the organization at the orders of these
people.

MR. RINDER: It’s alleging things — It alleges things.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s fine.

MR. RINDER: That’s going to take the whole trial, just like — You know,
I’m talking about the concern of a preliminary injunction. Alleging things is
fine and alleging things we (inaudible) in certain cases is —

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you did, have them act immediately. That’s all you have
to do.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5166

MR. RINDER: What is?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Is to say it. That’s all that needs to be said.

MR. RINDER: We have a hearing and then we have a hearing for the
preliminary injunction, that’s like —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You have a lot of things going for you. If you follow on the
tail of all these people being indicted at the top of the organization and the
fact that all —

MR. RINDER: Yeah, but wait a minute. What’s going to happen?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Hold on, hold on. Listen, we either are going ahead or we
are not. Okay? I don’t quite know what you are asking me, because I don’t have
the information on those three things.

MR. RINDER: Okay. That’s what I was asking you, if you had something else
you could get for us on those that would give us a stronger position.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s what I’m telling you. If I were to get the affidavits
on the outside from Schomer and from — and from Nelson — I don’t know if
Nelson will even talk to me, but I’ll give it a try. And beyond that, I want
to talk to the attorney. There is no one around, aside from

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5167

Michael Flynn, who has an understanding of this whole fucking thing like I
do. And that’s a fact.

MR. RINDER: Okay. I mean (inaudible).

MR. ARMSTRONG: What the fuck do you think? We talk every day about it. But
that’s not for you —

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have no intention of hurting Mike Flynn, but I’m telling
you he’s behind it a hundred percent; absolutely behind it.

MR. RINDER: Right. Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, we could use his affidavit alone, his affidavit
along with, you know, copies of the — of what they are doing. There is no
proof against Mike Flynn. There is nothing. It’s a bunch of hollow bullshit.
And people were paid, criminals. A fucking guy in jail on a murder — on
murder who paid for testimony —

MR. RINDER: Okay. Look. I understand all that. (inaudible) back before. I
just had the specific question that I was aksed. The one about do you have any
other data that specifically supports these things that we unable to get.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are you able to get money?

MR. RINDER: What do you mean, money?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5168

MR. ARMSTRONG: How much for (inaudible), how much to attorneys? Figures.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, we can get the figures.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Give them to me. Ask for them. Ask for them. I’ve got to
have fucking stuff relayed. I won’t work if —

MR. RINDER: Who you going to relay that to, though?

MR. ARMSTRONG: We’ll put the fucking (inaudible) in. Who is doing it? Who
has the scene? Do you have any people that analyze data? Do you have a
goddamned data bank? Do you have someone who’s a courier? A fucking network
setup? We have got to do it otherwise we’re — (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We’ve got to have a fucking thing that — I don’t even know
who the fucking assholes are who photographed me. And get the number of the
car. If you haven’t got a guy who can walk around out in the fucking parking
lot and get a —

MR. RINDER: Wait a minute, Gerry.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Listen to me. I am not as —

MR. RINDER: You are. You are giving me a bunch of shit like —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5169

MR. ARMSTRONG: I am trying to fucking build a fire. We can do it. I’m with
you a fucking hundred percent, but we can’t (inaudible) the time constraints
and all the other things get involved. I know you guys are under pressure.
(Inaudible.) I’m trying to work with you. But I feel — You know, I’ve got to
be frank; if you don’t get from me what the fuck’s on my mind, what good am I
to you? I’m trying to give you data as rapidly and as accurately as I can. I
have a lot of questions. You know, boy —

MR. RINDER: Okay. I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible.) Anybody who can fucking write (inaudible). Give
me a report. We can analyze them and go back in for the other specifics that
are missing.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Okay, I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) affidavits typed up or we can talk over legal
shit with the attorney, because the time is right. Believe me, I am of the
philosophic mind worrying really doesn’t matter one way or the other when it’s
done or if it’s done. But when I’m with you, I kind of try to speak my mind.

I’m not after you. I have a great deal of

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5170

admiration and respect for you because it takes a fucking lot of courage to
even walk out of the goddamned joint and to talk to me because I’m not exactly
number one in the personality list. But I happen — you know, by shear default
I’m in this position where on the outside a lot of people talk to me, and I’ve
got a fucking good legal mind and I can help out. I’m not — And I know the
guys involved and I’m not going to back down from them. I can help you.

MR. RINDER: Right. That’s what we want.

MR. ARMSTRONG: But I can’t help you — oh you know —

MR. RINDER: I’ll tell you something. I’ll tell you something. There is a
little — I mean this is making me feel a little better, what we are saying,
because there’s generally people concerned with what’s going on is that —
that you are in a position where you are giving us stuff. You are feeding us
data. (Inaudible) — What has happened so far is we’ve gotten these things and
when we check them out, it looks like, well, maybe we are going to get shafted
if we do this. (Inaudible) —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You happen to be in a position, you happen — It just
happens that I was

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5171

in a position where I heard that there’s a group inside and then things
went from there. No one has any motivation to hurt you guys or use you guys at
all. In fact, I am absolutely willing right now to say, “Listen, let’s just
end it, you know. Go back to — go back to status quo.” I wouldn’t hurt you
guys. I wouldn’t talk about you. Let’s just end it. I’m absolutely willing to
do it. On the other hand, I do this because I think — you know, I like to
talk to people, I like to talk to you guys, and the fucking thing interests me
to a great degree. It’s extremely exciting, the possibility that exists here.
But not only that, just in life and in life in general.

I approach things differently. I’m just — you know, you get what you get.
I’m not going to fuck you over. I’ll support you as much as I can. You know I
don’t have any money and you know that I’m pretty strapped just litigating my
own case. But I’ll do what I can. And that’s you will you get from me.

I’ve never in all the time I have dealt with him, I have never found Mike
Flynn to lie to me or to — or to be anything but decent. Not once. You know,
he is like I am, he’s — you know, he gets

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5172

pissed off every once in a while, a lot less than I do.

MR. RINDER: What —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s all you’ve got and that’s the whole way these things
work, it’s just on trust. That’s all — That’s all you’ve got. I don’t think
anyone is setting you up. It may happen that you feel like, “Fuck, we have
been set up.” That’s just the way live is. It pisses you off. You can’t live
in a cocoon in this goddamned place.

MR. RINDER: I understand that. All I was telling you was being up front and
telling you what — why there was some concern, what there is concern about.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You guys have got a goddamned committee; am I right? There’s
a committee?

MR. RINDER: Right, there’s a committee.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It is not a democratic committee, I know, and it is fine. I
think that, again, when you go back, whatever happens, happens. And it’s okay
with me. I couldn’t give a fuck if you guys turn me in. You know, I would be
disappointed, but I would get over it real quick because, you know, on the
other side of that disappointment is the side — you know, is a great

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5173

mound of excitement.

You guys live in an exciting time and you’ve got a shot at it. And frankly,
I’ve only met two of you, but I like the two that I met. I like Dan and I’d
like to see the whole damned thing ended and I would like to see it ended in
this somewhat exciting fashion. A lot of things are happening. I don’t know
what the fuck is going on out there, but — they are (inaudible) they are not
talking. So something is going on. Whether or not (inaudible). You know, these
proceedings. You know —

MR. RINDER: Yeah. Definitely should —

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) stir people up. I’m only one fucking guy out
here and that’s it. But I do — But I do what I can.

MR. RINDER: That’s not true; you are not just one guy. You’ve got tie lines
to all sorts of people.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Just by default.

MR. RINDER: Talking to the CID all the time, talking to all those guys.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m talking to them by default. No one has — there is no
Che Guevara around. No one’s risen from the occasion.

MR. RINDER: I’ll tell you something. What I

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5174

can’t figure out is if there’s some connection between your relationship to
us and your relationship to them. So from their side, do you see what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: You mean, are they using me?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Nobody is — Nobody has given me the slightest
indication of that. You know, every time I talk to the CID about — about you
guys, they say, “Gosh, have them talk to us.” You know, they went to talk,
they want to know about the way things are. That’s about it. I don’t know
anything — I don’t have anything to promise them. What am I going to do? You
know?

MR. RINDER: So they are interested in you, primarily (inaudible).

MR. ARMSTRONG: They are not interested in me primarily. The fact that I
happen to have particular knowledge and I happen to be to some degree, at
least, a clearing house of information. People contact me and they talk about
this and I happen to be fairly well connected. That’s about it. So they kind
of use that, but I’m not a — I don’t know — you know, what status I am as a
witness as far as they are concerned. I know the

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5175

language and I can — and I can talk it. That’s why they talk to me. And if
they have a question they talk.

MR. RINDER: I understand. I mean, you know (inaudible)

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5176

MR. RINDER: I understand. You obviously are a good witness.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m a witness and I have — and I have documents, but they
have never talked to me about the documents under seal. Other than I gave them
— I talked to — You know what a window of vulnerability is?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In law there is a certain thing; it’s kind of like a reading
of the law. It’s like a window of vulnerability at a given time, is like
something opens up. Like a window in space and you are vulnerable at that
time. And so it just happened that Judge — you remember Judge Petrous, who
let the goddamned documents (Inaudible)

MR. RINDER: He was what?

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) seal, he was talking about — and then they were
all sealed up again. And — it was just hilarious, because ultimately
(Inaudible) —

MR. RINDER: No one is — There’s no liability for that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t feel — I heard you guys’s complaint, but I don’t
feel it’s your liability. And everything that happened. Every

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5177

time the organization makes — that thing alone, you guys — by simply
saying that — that you are Scientologists and there are these documents under
seal, and frankly, Scientologists will never get to see them.

The organization has spent how much in Armstrong? It all has to be
accounted for in the various cases. So you can say, okay, the organization,
they spent ninety-three thousand dollars on PIs to push me around. It’s a
fucking crime to assault me. I got your crime. I was driven into. I was driven
off the freeway. No fucking crimes. I’ll give you an affidavit.

MR. RINDER: Okay. I don’t know anything about that. It’s like — It’s a
little incredible to me they drove you off the highway.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s right. I was driving a ’71 Datsun. He turned right in
front of me. He was a PI. I took photos of him. I’ve got a fucking bank of
photos. And you will note in — Did you read the — Did you read the result of
the hearing by Judge Breckenridge?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Did you notice — oh, later on I think you guys gave
documents, that was on

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5178

Ingram, and it was during the time we were looking into Flynn thing. Judge
Breckenridge slapped down Peterson because he said that all the testimony
regarding what the PIs did were uncontradicted. In other words, that’s it.
That’s — That is the issue. It’s been litigated. It’s right in print. That’s
what they did. And my wife was with me the whole time.

MR. RINDER: This thing that — Yeah, I understand that. I mean obviously —
that was one of the points I had. Your suit, when you were fighting your suit
there was like, you know, a little guy against this big organization that —
that tends to put you in a somewhat — you know, a sympathetic-type of
position. You know, it is like a big corporation versus, you know, some
individual.

MR. ARMSTRONG: A big corporation is one thing, but bullies is another.
That’s the —

MR. RINDER: Yeah, but regardless of that — but that’s the — one of the
(inaudible) we are not going to hand you that position. We are going to have
to establish the same sort of — you know, whatever you established in your
trial. You became believable and you became — you know —

MR. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean became

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5179

believable?

MR. RINDER: I don’t mean became. I mean you were believable.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly.

MR. RINDER: You were believable on things.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know why? Because the organization lies.

MR. RINDER: I don’t understand how that makes you —

MR. ARMSTRONG: One guy who is telling the truth as he sees it. And it’s
obvious, and you know that the organization is lying. You never see us caught
in a fucking lie.

And again, you know that the organization has bought professional muscle to
push around — guys that it — you know. You kind of doubt — you know, if
someone says, “Well, your founder is full of shit. Your founder sucks eggs.”
You don’t go out and hire a PI to push the guy around. That — You guys are so
fucking indoctrinated, you have no idea what the world is like out here. You
might do that. You guys are operated like the fucking Russians, Russion
Communist regime. (Inaudible)

MR. RINDER: Yeah. But the point of that is, — well, lying for the cause —
I mean — lying for

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5180

the cause is a — it’s — I consider this cause is something worth lying
about. I lie about it every day.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I know.

MR. RINDER: So do you. I mean it’s —

MR. ARMSTRONG: But there is a difference. There’s a fucking big difference
—

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — because —

MR. RINDER: You know, that’s what I’m saying is, somewhere or another we
have to be able to establish that so that that becomes our position. It
doesn’t matter if it’s a matter of positioning, it has to be, because you can
go in there and you can make allegations and everything (inaudible)

MR. ARMSTRONG: You are right. There has got to be a certain amount of PR
attached to this. Just remember all the positioning is bullshit that the
organization has involved itself in and all of its superior PR tech. Its PR
sucks. But don’t think necessarily that the way things have been handled by
the organization is — or even by me or by anyone else, is necessarily the way
to go.

You guys have a situation of being very courageous individuals who are
speaking out to

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5181

rights and wrongs. That’s it. And you are saying that the organization is
using money that you guys worked for —

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — in a wrong manner and you’re requesting —

MR. RINDER: I understand that. I understand that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So the positioning is simply — I’ll tell you what the
positioning is. The positioning is lies versus truth. Positioning is courage
versus cowardice. That’s your positioning. They lie. They lie.

Of course, they try it against all the — — you know, the — (Inaudible)
testimony for federal agencies. It doesn’t wash with the federal agencies and
with anyone.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And that’s because it’s already known that they lie. What
you are saying, “I’m fed up with my organization lying. I’m here to clean up
the goddamned act. And the way I” —

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible) So we have a better chance of making our stuff
stick; right?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, you have to prove these

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5182

things and you have to have people — you have to have real names on the
bottom of the damned things. And you have to have people who are going to be
willing to talk to the press immediately; who are going to know what the fuck
is going on and better have their language together — you know, better be
pretty fucking distant from the party line in there. Because if they’re
spewing the party line, which everyone sees as a bunch of bullshit, you are in
for a lot of trouble. But if you say we are not, absolutely not, you are here
to save Scientology, you are not here to destroy it, that again is another lie
perpetrated by the organization. Who the fuck wants to destroy it? That’s just
another lie. They lie.

MR. RINDER: I’m sorry, I thought you were saying we were going to destroy
the organization and that’s a lie.

MR. ARMSTRONG: No.

MR. RINDER: I got it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It isn’t like — it isn’t like a big thing. It’s just a
dicotomy. You are suing them because, one, you are honest and you want the
facts known; number two, they are spending money on illegal things, and here
they are: one, two,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5183

three, four, five. They are spending so much money, so go after — attach
the fucking —

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — the goddamned officials fucking freedom. Go after them.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Somewhere or another — Some way or another we accomplish
that. That’s what we’ve got to accomplish. (Inaudible) that sort of a
position. We — You accomplished a lot. I mean, and you even say that put me
in a position where, you know, I’m kind of stuck with that because I did
accomplish it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Let me give — I appreciate that. Let me just give you one
word of advice. In my opinion, it is necessary, not because of everything
that’s happening up in Canada, for you guys to act fairly rapidly, and it’s a
very logical reason. The Armstrong case brought to the surface a great number
of documents. All right?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Documents which show fraud. Right? Do you agree?

MR. RINDER: Well, I haven’t seen all those things. I don’t know what they
show and what they don’t show. I have no idea.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5184

MR. ARMSTRONG: You saw what the judge said. Be realistic, you saw what the
judge said about Hubbard.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, I have seen the judge’s order. Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s the kind of the way it is. Now, what has —

MR. RINDER: That puts —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have a fraud count. I have a fraud case; just about
everyone else has a fraud case, and they now have the documents. Fraud — A
statute of limitations for fraud runs from the date — I believe it’s a
two-year statute, and it runs from the date of the —

MR. RINDER: — discovery

MR. ARMSTRONG: — of the fraud. There is going to be a run on the bank.

MR. RINDER: I understand. I understand what you are saying.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Nip the goddamned thing in the bud before that happens.
Otherwise, you are all going to be left holding a very empty baG —

MR. RINDER: We don’t want that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — one with a lot of indebtedness attached to it. More lies.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5185

MR. RINDER: We are not interested in that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly.

MR. RINDER: And that is why — (inaudible) like, let’s move.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And that’s why you if you guys frankly want to save
Scientology, fuck them; slap those guys down.

MR. RINDER: Okay. I understand that entirely. That’s — We are moving in
the same direction on that. We’re moving in the same direction. The point is,
for us to take a look at this and make sure we are moving in the right
fashion, not in doing things that are going to fuck us up. I know you can’t
guarantee what’s going to happen. But there are certain things that you can do
to try and —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You can be real sensible about it.

MR. RINDER: We can be sensible about it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Listen. Who are the fuckers who photographed me?
(Inaudible.)

MR. RINDER: I’ll tell you something, straight up. Right now?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: I didn’t even bring the license

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5186

plate number. That’s straight up front.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You have it?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. The reason I didn’t bring it is the way I told you,
because I came here to get some data (inaudible) there was concern about you
were setting us up and therefore why should we give you —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who is the most concerned? Who is the guy in your committee
who stirs the most shit? Is it you or someone else? Who is the guy?

MR. RINDER: Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because I want to fucking talk to him. (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: No, I won’t.

MR. ARSTRONG: Frankly, I’m not (inaudible) trust you either. (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: Okay. Well, I think that will — I think that this will help on
that point.

MR. ARMSTRONG: All I’ve done is (inaudible). In any case, let me ask you a
couple of things. I would like to — you know, it’s difficult for you to get
out. I’m only going to be here possibly to December 18th. I’m going to be gone
for three weeks; I will be up in Canada.

MR. RINDER: Going home, huh?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5187

MR. ARMSTRONG: A lot of things. I’m getting — My wife and I are splitting
up. That’s for you alone. Don’t let that get inside the organization. Well,
this is fine. No problem. She’s cool and she’s protected by — you know, allow
for privilege —

MR. RINDER: Allow for privilege? I don’t know what that means.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Everything that we have ever discussed, she will not talk
about it.

MR. RINDER: Have you discussed that with her?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. She knows — she has known for some time because she was
there when Dan told all of us. She knows no names. She knows nothing else. She
knows occasionally I go out to meet people. She doesn’t know who or anything.

MR. RINDER: Is she any risk to us?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t see she is any risk to you. Everyone is a risk.
That’s what it’s all about. You run towards the risks. You stay after them and
grab them by the fucking throat.

Get me those guys’ names, please, whoever the three were. Do you know one
of them? Do you know who they were?

MR. RINDER: No, I don’t know who the people

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5188

were.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. One of them was — had reddish hair. He looks like
he’d be in his late twenties. Good looking kid, fairly tall, six one.

MR. RINDER: Okay. I know what you want on that. The problem is not knowing
what you want.

MR. ARMSTRONG: A blond guy — I guess these guys are all security personnel
— long blond hair. Those were the two that I ID’d definitely. I have seen
them around the organization.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’ve got to — You’ve go to go. I’ve got to know about your
attorney. You know, are you guys just going to take it, and what do I have to
do? I need to know, I need to know have you got any — have you got any money?
Are we really going ahead? Should I drop it with the district attorney?

MR. RINDER: Don’t worry about the district attorney right now. We have —
Our guy is handling this. We have figured out — we’ve even figured out who we
can make the external trust to. We have some work on that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. If there’s an attorney and he has questions, legal
questions to bat around,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5189

he should call Mike. The only problem with him calling Mike is, Mike is not
going to know who the fuck he is. Are you following me?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So I have to know who he is in order to make the
introduction, because without that, there is a problem. Because the guy could
be — Mike is going to think, “Who the fuck is this guy setting me up with the
organization?”

MR. RINDER: I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Is he retained? I need to know that. Is he retained?

MR. RINDER: Why do you need to know that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Why the fuck can’t I? Like I say, nothing goes beyond here.
Because I need to know what the fuck is going on.

MR. RINDER: You see, that’s where there is a slight difference of opinion,
is that we don’t think you need to know everything that is going on with us.
There is no reason for that. Why? I already told you that we have an attorney.
We have someone that’s been helping us with this and moving up. That’s
enough. You don’t need to know anything more than that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Like I say, he should — He

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5190

has legal questions, he needs someone with —

MR. RINDER: The questions about the data, about what data we have, that was
the question.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you guys have anything more? Are we —

MR. RINDER: No, not quite. Do you remember earlier you told Joey and Danny
about — about putting together some docs? They say we can do it if we get
ahold of Ingram.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I wouldn’t want to touch it with a barge pole. Don’t need
to.

MR. RINDER: Why not?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t even want to discuss that matter.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I can’t see any relation — you know, (inaudible) if that
was our aim, you know, we wanted to smack some people and really mess them up
good, we could do some things, but — I don’t have any idea on that. I think
that — You know, if you guys are going ahead, then I think that — go for it
and kind of let it shake out the way it is.

MR. RINDER: You don’t see anything in trying to push this a little harder?
Because that was — that was what we got on the original idea on that,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5191

and it sort of died, you know, sort of nothing ever eventuated from it, but
it was talked about a number of times.

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: We have access to — We have access to a lot of stuff. There is
no question that we have access to it. It’s a matter of how do we utilize it
and what do we put together?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know anything more about the Tamimi situation?

MR. RINDER: We checked all that out on this thing. We checked out all the
stuff that these guys have got; everything, we checked: all the affidavits,
photos, everything.

MR. ARMSTRONG: The affidavits?

MR. RINDER: Of those guys? Yeah.

(Someone walked by and asked them questions.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, what do you think? Have we come to an impass here?

MR. RINDER: No, I don’t think so.

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) Do you need me for any of this shit? You feel
like you have got the whole thing under control, like I can ease out of the
picture?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5192

MR. RINDER: I don’t want to do that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. But I feel like I’m, you know, kind of like — you know,
I am — kind of called up here to find out whether or not you can trust me.
For what? You know, for —

MR. RINDER: Well, be that as it may, that’s what occurred today. You know,
that’s like —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I understand. It just seems like —

MR. RINDER: I am in a bit of a strange position, because I’ve got to go
back and if I go back and do what really is wanting-to-be-heard type of thing,
it doesn’t work. And that’s all there is to it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Is there a top dog? Is there like someone who is the fucking
force behind this (inaudible)?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are you it?

MR. RINDER: No.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Is he the guy that has to be convinced? Because I would like
to talk to someone, you know.

MR. RINDER: What do you want to say to him that you haven’t said to me?
Anything?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5193

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I really want to — I want to know where does it sit
with the attorney? Is the guy going to go with it? I mean, you know, where are
the affidavits? I gotta — (Inaudible) they can be set up and structured.

(Someone came by and asked for extra change.)

MR. RINDER: I asked you about Mr. Falk. And this is sort of an additional
thing. What is the real thing as regards us not getting shafted by the
agencies (Inaudible) or if they — we make our move?
Can we get any sort of a guarantee that we won’t get shit on by the them?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I think you guys should talk to them and let them know what
the fuck you are doing and that you intend to clean up the goddamned place.

MR. RINDER: What if they say — I mean you told them about us, obviously.
(Inaudible) I mean, the trouble with that is, we would get ourselves two
(Inaudible), that’s it. We can be subpoenaed. They can do whatever they want
with us at that point.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There’s definitely a certain amount of risk in it, but
they’ll meet with you under any circumstances. And no names. But

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5194

obviously, they are looking for — they are looking for information through
the (Inaudible) lines, so they said. They’re after this guy, L. Ron Hubbard.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible) What’s your opinion on it? Where do you think they
would sit?

MR. ARMSTRONG: My opinion, again, all of them that I have dealt with, is
that they are very realistic and very decent people. You know, they are
probably hot shot American university boys who got plucked by Uncle Sam out of
their graduating classes of their respective universities and put into law
enforcement. CID is — I mean they’re gun-toters. They are like the FBI, they
are enforcement. They are not like, you know, all the other FBI cases that are
now going on. You are all looking at defensive actions. It’s like dealing with
a bunch of attorneys. FBI does not, to my knowledge, currently have an
investigation going. CID does and various other agencies do. But my opinion is
that what — what’s happened is that a transition of power will occur and then
your attorneys will be dealing with, as the organization’s attorneys have, the
various government agencies. It will just be a transition.

You simply have to
fire your old attorneys

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5195

and you have to look at whether or not they fucking misrepresented you,
whether or not they should all have their asses slapped for malpractice,
because they have taken a lot of money and guys haven’t won a goddamned suit.
Okay?

MR. RINDER: I have a question about that. What if we say, like they
obviously know about your dealing with us to some degree. Are they within
their rights to move on us for this, like trying to get us into deposition
about what we are doing with you?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. I don’t see how they can. They don’t know who you are.

MR. RINDER: But they could ask you.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, well, I will never tell ’em — you know, until you
guys say, “I want to talk.” At which point — you know, that’s just the way it
is. I will tell them I don’t know anyone’s name.

MR. RINDER: Okay. What’s the point of —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I see no downside regarding those people for you guys. They
did — Everyone I have talked to, in Justice and CID and everyone, says,
“Well, basic operators like a business.” So there is going to be a transition.
It’s gotta

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5196

change. It cannot continue. There is an awful lot of opposition to it. So
it’s going to change. And you guys, if you take over, are going to end up
dealing with the government agencies exactly like the organization does now,
the difference being you are not going to spend a billion dollars to come up
with nothing. You have got to clean up the ship. It has to be — you can’t —
you know, the organization cannot continue being so fucking righteous.

MR. RINDER: Can we go into this with a prudent — say, an expectation that
— that if we were to actually accomplish our takeover, that we wouldn’t then
have to be part of the (Inaudible) quarrel with those guys? Just like when you
said, you know, you don’t want to take over an entity which has nothing left
but just a bunch of debts.

MR. ARMSTRONG: No.

MR. RINDER: We want to take over something like (Inaudible).

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. I’ll tell you this. If you guys were to say, “Listen, we
want to take over, we want to clean it up, we are willing to make our books
available to you, we are willing to open the whole damned thing up, because we
want to know like

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5197

you want to know. We want to know where every goddamned penny has gone and
we want to know what the fuck it’s been used for. We want to know if any our
former parishioners, specifically Miscavage and company or whoever, have some
villa in Switzerland.”

MR. RINDER: Now, will we be liable for anything that had occurred through
this place? Do you see what I mean? If we are taking over now, we are the
Church. Would we then become liable if there is stuff — will we then become
liable for that? Are we going to end up being in the hot seat about that
stuff?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t see how you can be. I don’t see how you can be. What
— what cases exist? What if something has happened? You people weren’t the
organization then. You have — You know, statutes run on virtually everything
from back in the Mary Sue days. And if you are into something more current,
then I think, again, you guys have solved that problem just by filing a
lawsuit. I don’t see that as any problem. I really don’t. You know, there may
be individual things. Let’s say one of the guys hauled off and hit someone,
who was an asshole, you are just going to have to handle that.

By the way, you guys have the information on

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5198

this Scottish inn keeper?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Some asshole was held and Miscavage belted him. And it’s
criminal activity.

MR. RUNSTEIN: Well, okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m telling you —

MR. RINDER: That’s fine. I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Don’t cast that sort of stuff off, because I’ve given you
ideas and someone is going to come up with an affidavit John (inaudible)
stated this.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible).

MR. ARMSTRONG: You asked me what I knew about things. I can come up with —
The guy in England — what’s his name? — Jay (inaudible), who wrote some
document which listed out a number of people, (inaudible) Roger Barnes
(Inaudible). Somebody — you know, (inaudible) — that’s important to you
guys, because you have to get across to the immediate hearing judge what can
be expected.

MR. RINDER: That’s exactly what — That’s exactly what I was talking about
on this thing.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have been saying it all along. You guys can simply say —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5199

MR. RINDER: I’ve got —

MR. ARMSTRONG: — that’s the danger you’re in now.

MR. RINDER: I’ve got —

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: I’ve got — Yes. I do agree with that. That’s fine. Listen, I
have a question. Can you — I don’t know if you have ever even brought this up
to the CID guys. Is it — You know, would they even answer that question?

MR. ARMSTRONG: What?

MR. RINDER: What would their position be?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Their position would be to work with you guys. It would be
that. You are swapping. What you are swapping is, we will work with you. We
will open our books.

MR. RINDER: And that will give us, therefore, immunity from anything —

MR. ARMSTRONG: — that may (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: There is a liability to that. If we open our books, we are now
in charge, well, if there is something in there, do we then become liabel for
that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Why?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5200

MR. RINDER: Because who else is the head of the corporation now?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because you are there. And it is a corporation which has
been vandalized, which has been ripped off. How much (inaudible) I don’t see
how.

MR. RINDER: I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I want to talk to people. I don’t give a fuck who. I don’t
have a lot of time. You know, I’m going to be around for eighteen more days
max.

MR. RINDER:. Okay. I mean we have been trying to get ahold of you about it,
because we are moving ahead. It’s not like a stall or anything. We are moving.

MR. ARMSTRONG: When you talk to the attorney, call me in just for goddamned
information. From then, I want to talk to him and I want to put him in touch
with Mike Flynn, because he has got to get the legal — You know, I deal with
this thing on a couple of levels. First there is the minutia which we are
talking about right now, little details.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: But then there are big,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5201

broad, goddamned legal concepts which are important for an understanding of
the whole thing and the way it can be resolved. There is a lot of minutia
which I don’t know about. But the ultimate legal concepts I grasp pretty
quick.

MR. RINDER: Okay, Flynn could definitely —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Flynn is a fucking good attorney and he knows it and he can
help the guy.

MR. RINDER: He could even, like —

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible).

MR. RINDER: Yeah. (Inaudible)

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) one on the arm. What’s the situation with him?

MR. RINDER: Okay. Yeah, it’s a fairly good idea. Someway or another, you
have already accomplished it, so you are to some degree, you have lied.
(Inaudible) So you, to some degree, have a viewpoint. You have managed to
accomplish something, so that is definitely your taking into consideration.
You know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: (Inaudible) here’s. I mean to be totally frank with you. I read
that. I read the judge’s order. I find that I (inaudible) a — that you —
joined the Scientology because of what LRH

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5202

had represented as his background.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Didn’t you?

MR. RINDER: No. Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Did you think the guy —

MR. RINDER: No. I didn’t (Inaudible) —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Did you think that the guy was a pathological liar?

MR. RINDER: All I knew was that — The reason that I joined and the reason
why everybody else I know, which is why it was brought up, is the technology
made some sort of sense. This looks like something I can get interested in.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What keeps you in the Sea Org for ten bucks a week? Because
you think —

MR. RINDER: It’s the same thing. I still believe in the technology.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. Because you — you (Inaudible) supposed to help. The
purpose of it is to help Ron clear the planet. Help Ron do such and such.
(Inaudible) The fucking guy lied to us.

MR. RINDER: Anyway, that’s a —

MR. ARMSTRONG: It’s important to someone definitely on the outside. You
know, all of a sudden one day you might find — I’m not saying you will, but
all of a sudden you might find — you

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5203

realize, you know, for fuck’s sakes, the guy did lie. You know, what
exactly happened? Okay. I’ve got these goddamned levels. Am I really OT?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I thought — you know, it’s a bit of a shame about Judge
Breckenridge at this point that he’s getting attacked by these assholes, but
he’s — you know, the guy is a courageous, strong — he’s a funny man, and
that’s about it. He was extremely fair. And all this shit about comments that
he made about them is so much horse pucky, more bullshit, more lies by their
fucking (Inaudible) attorneys. It’s just pure — it just disgusts me that
attorneys are that fucking low and the organization’s got them. I got to go.

MR. RINDER: Me, too.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, if somebody can’t get out on a regular basis
(Inaudible) And just as an aside, tell them this is absolutely the last time
to you get to check me out to see whether or not (inaudible).

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: After this, they can go fuck themselves. (Inaudible).

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5204

MR. RINDER: Okay. We will be in comm.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I want to talk to the attorney. (Inaudible) Pass the word.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Drive safely.

(End of videotape.)

– – – – –

  1. Transcript taken from Christofferson v. Scientology:  Excerpt of Proceedings April 16, 1985. ↩

Filed Under: Legal Tagged With: Christofferson v. Scientology, Gerry Armstrong, Loyalist Program, Michael J. Rinder

Christofferson: Excerpt of Proceedings (April 16, 1985)

April 16, 1985 by Clerk1

http://gerryarmstrong.org/50k/legal/related/5206.php

Filed Under: Legal Tagged With: B-1 files, Christofferson v. Scientology, David Miscavige, Earle C. Cooley, Eugene M. Ingram, Gerry Armstrong, Harry L. Manion III, Judge Donald H. Londer, L. Ron Hubbard, Loyalist Program, Mary Sue Hubbard, Michael J. Rinder, Terri Gamboa

Court transcript: Illegal video of November 17, 1984

April 15, 1985 by Clerk1

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE STATE OF OREGON

FOR THE COUNTY OF MULTNOMAH

JULIE CHRISTOFFERSON TITCHBOURNE,

Plaintiff,

vs.

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY, MISSION OF DAVIS, a non-profit California corporation, doing business in Oregon; CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA, a California corporation, doing business in Oregon; and L. RON HUBBARD,

Defendants.

)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
No. A7704-05184

EXCERPT OF PROCEEDINGS 1

April 15-16, 1985

[…]

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5052

(Following is a video tape recording transcript made November 17, 1984.)

VIDEO TAPE RECORDED TRANSCRIPT

MR. ARMSTRONG: How are you doing?

MR. RINDER: Very good. How are you?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Not bad.

MR. RINDER: Finally. Documents. Are you going to give that back to me?

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you like.

MR. RINDER: So? Here I am. Now, I guess you are probably going to want a little bit about why me, but the reason that I wanted to meet you is because we are a little concerned at this point about the fact that, you know, stuff being relayed through this relay point and that, you know, there may be some misduplication and that kind of shit — and I want to get the straight scoop from you. I also — I brought this draft of the suit. There’s some points in there —

(End of first video tape.)

MR. WADE: For the record, 897 begins now.

(Defendants’ Exhibit 897 video tape played. Following is a transcript of that recording.)

MR. RINDER: I need it more than you do, I

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5053

think. So, here I am. Now, I guess you are probably going to want to know a little bit about why — why me, but the reason that I wanted to meet you is because we are a little concerned at this point about — the fact that — you know, the stuff being relayed through this relay point and that — you know, there may be some misduplication and that kind of shit, and I want to get the straight scoop from you. I also — I brought this draft of the suit. There’s some points in there — well, I have a little concern about some of those, about how we are going to handle that; if we were to go ahead and bring that, how it would actually come off. You know, at certain times we really need to — to get the real scene, you know, what’s really going on, so I’m going to — I have a (inaudible). Joey doesn’t have that. So I can then be a more direct relay point, because this has been going on now for some time.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There’s a lot of things I would like to work out, which I think would make things go along a lot easier. First of all, the complaint, itself, that’s not set in concrete.

MR. RINDER: No, no, I understand that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And a lot of issues keep

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5054

coming up which kind of broadens the whole thing, as far as I’m concerned. The last time I met with Joey it was with the girl, and at that point I was basically given a go ahead to locate an attorney. I don’t know if you guys have an attorney, I don’t know what the status of that is. However, when, apparently, the money fell through — well, whatever happened, I did not have the name of the attorneys. And I would be willing to do that, but that’s kind of a last thing I was left with.

My understanding is it’s sort of up in the air the whole thing. And that’s okay. I don’t have any compulsion to do any of it. But, you know, in my opinion the organization is in a state of transformation and it has to be altered. It is altering itself. We happen to be in a situation right now where, you know, something good can come out of it. That’s philosophically where I stand on it. I don’t want to continue on a legal battle against anyone.

MR. RINDER: That’s exactly what our position is on that. That is really the common interest that we have with you.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Everyone has — you know, as an aside, that viewpoint is being assumed on the

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5055

outside in great numbers. People are suddenly beginning to realize that, you know, the thing — something is happening and a transformation has to take place. So what does everyone do in a situation like that?

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: But it is being picked up on the side. I got a call this morning from Martin Samuels. I had a call two weeks ago from Ben (inaudible) — all of whom, you know, are kind of moving away from — from the — well we are just going to a proceed with our lawsuit kind of viewpoint to the — you know, to the position that something is happening and something can be done. So what does Scientology as a body want their organization to become? You people are in a very unique position. It’s never happened before in the history of the organization, although in a sense, the Miscavage takeover was similar.

MR. RINDER: Right. Yeah. Similar. We have just got to get some people in certain positions that are more attuned to the position that we are in when we actually manage to pull that off.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, it seems like he’s very firmly entrenched, but the degree of entrenchment

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5056

could be his demise.

MR. RINDER: That’s very true. I mean, that to some degree is the basic premise of the suit, you know; that entrenchment and the control of the organization is sort of what this is shooting for.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. You are familiar with the whole legal scene? You are legally —

MR. RINDER: Yeah, I’m pretty familiar with the legal scene.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I’ll ask some questions. Now, I understand you had a couple of Board members at CSC or at least people — people who think similarly. How many Board members are there in CSC?

MR. RINDER: Well, there’s a president and then there is the secretary, treasurer, and — you know, and assistant treasurer. And then I believe there are voting members, as well.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, really?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: For Board members minutes, how many signatures do you need?

MR. RINDER: You know, I actually don’t know that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Can you find that out?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5057

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: The reason I ask is simply because — you know, all these legal concepts kind of come to me and I would really like to talk to an attorney on your behalf or whatever, because I think — you know, the situation is so unique that the legal possibilities are enormous. For example, the Board simply votes to retain new counsel and you know the way Board minutes are circulated inside the organization —

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — they just type one up and everyone signs it, then you have Board minutes.

MR. RINDER: We would just get someone to —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, if the Board — The CSC Board are under the control of someone else, obviously.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. They’re under the control of CSI to some degree because there’s some sort of an agreement that exists between CSI and all the other churches.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What’s that agreement? What is the agreement?

MR. RINDER: It something in the area of and agreement to — it’s like — you know, there is this

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5058

licensing agreement that exists between (inaudible) and CSI and I believe it goes down from, like, CSI down to the other churches, that licensing agreement on the basis of good research of the technology they are allowed to continue to go through with that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: CSC a couple of years ago was the whole thing. CSC now is a relatively miniscule part of the whole thing. They probably (inaudible) SOR.

MR. RINDER: Well, it’s not — I mean, CSC is a bad miniscule because it still includes like, AOLA AOSHA,’s —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yeah. In fact, you have operating orgs which is — you see, I don’t know the form this thing is going to take. But we don’t have to get so stuck on the one complaint. I think it’s a great complaint. I think you guys are in a position where you can make it happen.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In addition to that, there is also the concept that what if CSC suddenly said, “We’re CSC, we’re getting new attorneys, we’re firing our old attorneys. Not only that, but we’re going to sue them. You know, they fucked us over and they made us divest all this shit which we

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5059

didn’t want to. And we are demanding SOR back, and we are demanding all the organizations back. We are the mother Church. So fuck you guys.” You know, there’s that kind of thing which could be done by simply a part. You don’t have to be a whole body of Scientology. You could do it corporately. And, you know, take for example the agreement that you have with CSI. That agreement certainly can be rescinded. Not only that, but you can find out the conditions under which the agreement was made. Who signed the damned thing and did they have any choice? They were the head — They were the Board at the time. There had to be a Board at the time.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: The Board at the time had to have signed an agreement. And they were all removed or kicked out or dismembered or whatever. But those people signed some agreement. If you could simply find out from them, “Ah, we were told, ‘Sign or we are dead,’ signed and you’re kicked out.” By who? Who could tell the Board they’ve got to sign? It’s an open-and-shut case. There’s so many of those possibilities. Do you remember the note I sent along by Joey a while ago? What happened during that transition from the — you know, from CSC and

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5060

CSC is kind of a front for the whole thing. Hubbard controlled through CSC for so many years; correct?

MR. RINDER: Well, then you get into the legality of what is control. I mean, that’s what’s being litigated right now to a large extent.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s a whole different subject, you see. You people are, in fact, the organization.

MR. RINDER: Right. Provided there’s enough of us. You see, that’s one of the concerns that I have about this. Actually, we have a line to an attorney, and I had this suit, had him look at it, and you know, not just on the basis of taking it on or anything, but just to give us a little advice on it. And — like, one of the questions is: what would be the standing of the plaintiffs in the first place? You know, like, to say that we are going to get together twenty people and say this is now the Church, you know, this is CSC or CSI or whatever, it’s like you know, three, four, five hundred people in CSI and maybe 800 people in CSC and I think —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah

MR. RINDER: — that could turn out to be a real weak point in that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes. But they can’t kick you

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5061

out of — you know, they can’t kick you out. See, if you say, “I’m it. I’m just as much a part of it as you are” — I mean, not to say that you are it and they are not. But I can’t say that I’m the Church of Scientology. I made that — You know, I made that choice when I walked out the door. You guys haven’t walked out, so you are in a completely different position.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, but what — you know — See, the liability of this — the real liability of this suit for us is that it puts us out in the open. Now, obviously at some point we are going to have to go out in the open, but there’s a liability to it in that unless this is strong enough to make it without crumbling under the first challenge, we are fucking dead, man. I mean we are just dead. I mean, the first thing that will happen is if we are bringing a suit, we’ll just get the (inaudible). Everybody whose name is on there, the plaintiffs would just get the (inaudible) and expelled. Then we —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s the whole point. That’s when you get into, “Sorry we are not moving.”

MR. RINDER: Well, then it becomes like a PR battle.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It is a PR battle, which is

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5062

why I mentioned in the last note. I hope you guys get these things.

MR. RINDER: That’s one of the things that I don’t know, that everything that you said is being relayed correctly.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, I am only a relay point in this thing. You know, however, I do make it — you know my purpose to create as much shit as possible. You know, since I have —

MR. RINDER: Shit for the organization?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I do whatever I do; I have no — I’m not hooked into anything. Anyway, I mention that, you know, there are many PR aspects to it. And the PR things can be so well done that — you know, Scientologists, because they have had it drilled into them, tend to believe. They are believers.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5063

Anyway, that’s why I mentioned get off-policy actions. Anything, any little detail that you can find that the top has done off old accepted policy that they are doing off now, you know, hidden data lines, use of PIs, anything you can find. Then you’ve got the organization behind you, because they are off policy. Include it in the lawsuit; include it. They are not doing what’s best for Scientology, because they are violating the policies. They are operating it autonomously and they are not operating to the best — for the good of the group.

There is a lot of those things that have to be worked out that make the complaint very strong. You know, no one has any idea if the thing will be pulled off. No one. You can’t tell five seconds from now what’s going to happen and to have to have a sure thing, well, we can wait until the cows come home.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, I got that point.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It’s going to take a Che Guevara, it’s going to take some asshole to stand up and say, “Fuck it. Enough of this shit.” You know, it’s going to take that.

MR. RINDER: They will have to be in a strong enough position prior to that to be able to stand up

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5064

and get anybody to hit them. Do you see what I am saying? You know, it’s like —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you have anyone like that? You know, there’s two different positions. You know, there’s — one is the public relations position and one is the organizational position. You may not be in the organizational position, but what kind of position are the people going to be in if a whole shitload of them are indicted? That’s not going to have a lot of —

MR. RINDER: That’s the thing. That’s kind of — That’s how that ties into this, because that would weaken those people who are in those positions right now, that have that authority to call a meeting of old stock and let them all stand up there and say, “Look. There’s a bunch of assholes and I’m going to get them.”

MR. ARMSTRONG: You guys have the same possibility.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, it’s a possibility.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, it could just be done. The whole — You know, if you guys concentrated only on the CSC, on the blue building. Divide the damned thing up and just, you know, the day that the thing happens, you know, the day you

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5065

file your complaint, then just call everyone and say to the meeting, “I don’t know the positions of the people or if they are in positions of strength, if they are accepted in the organization or —

MR. RINDER: They’re not all dishwashers, obviously.

MR. ARMSTRONG: — you know, somewhere in between. They are obviously not in ASI.

MR. RINDER: Right. That’s not the organization anyway.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. But not only that, you are going to get people on your side. How about if one of these days — you know, let’s say that at a given hour a whole bunch of people were to pitch up on the doorstep?

MR. RINDER: Where at?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Wherever you wanted them. Suddenly you have got numbers. Suddenly you have got a lot of people crowding into Lebanon Hall to hear lectures, to hear talks, to hear the announcement. Then you may have numbers on your side.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There are a lot of people on the outside. And potentially the whole thing could

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5066

be orchestrated, it could all be divided up into cells, and they could all be brought to one place at a given instance.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And it can be done during the chaos or whatever RTC’s ASI’s got going on. Who runs the organization right now?

MR. RINDER: Which organization?

MR. ARMSTRONG: All of it. Who runs it?

MR. RINDER: It gets run through CMO.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And who are these people?

MR. RINDER: You know, they’re probably the same guys as when you were around.

MR. ARMSTRONG: A lot of them are gone.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, quite a number of them are.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I am.

MR. RINDER: Sure. It’s 12:35.

Yeah, that’s true; that’s true. I’ll tell you, I am going to be totally honest with you, Gerry. I can see some potential — I can see some potential in this suit. And it’s actually one thing that I now see is the usefulness of talking to someone that’s not stuck into it, because you get kind of a whole exterior view and can look at things

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5067

which, you know, I tend — I tend to self-doubt a little about, you know, how far we can go.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s the way the mind works.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. You know, I’m doubtful of my position, too. You know what I mean? Like —

MR. ARMSTRONG: What have you got to lose?

MR. RINDER: Well, I have my life as a Scientologist, because I am still a Scientologist. I don’t want to change that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I understand. I don’t see how that — how that alters it in any way.

MR. RINDER: Well, that just puts me in a little different position from you —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Of course.

MR. RINDER: — because that is a threat of loss to me and to the people that I am —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.

MR. RINDER: — involved with. That’s our threat of loss. And that becomes — You see, there is like the ecclesiastical lines and then there is the legal secular line. And our threat of loss — you see, they have to go sort of hand in hand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s which brings us to another subject which, you know, you have to make a very clear differentiation between those two things,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5068

because they are absolutely different. The organization tends to lump them all together so that they can get away with their abuses and call them ecclesiastical rights or whatever. You know, like the hiring of PIs, all that’s just Church doctrine. Bullshit. You know, you guys have to make a distinction and get it reel straight about what the fuck is the organization? What the fuck is worth saving?

MR. RINDER: Right. I understand that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that has to be part of the lawsuit.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because they have twisted it and perverted it to the point where your organization stands a good chance of being smacked down so fucking hard it will never rise again, because people are going to get real pissed off, because people are pissed off and they are going to get pissed off and PIs are going to step out of line and somebody is going to get killed and that will be ticked up to Scientology as you have ever known it. It’s going to come across as nothing better than fucking terrorism, which is basically what it is, right now.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5069

You guys are terrorized. You can’t even fucking walk out of the organization. Fucking frisked and TV monitors. Come on. Its all there. Somebody has to stand up and say, “Enough of this bullshit.” Because sooner or later somebody is going to get fucking hurt.

You know, you got federal agencies that — you know, that are just about to bring the hammer down. You guys are assaulted from every corner with lawsuits. They can all be bought off. They can all be bought off for, you know, five cents on the dollar.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It happens to be in the hands of a very few paranoid individuals, and they should be smacked down.

MR. RINDER: I’m a little paranoid, too. If now what I mean.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You are not paranoid. You have a justifiable fear and I recognize that. It creates fear. What the fuck kind of a Church is it — Come on. It’s so ludicrous to anyone on the outside. A fear, you know — What kind of an organization that just creates this incredible fear inside everyone in there? Fucking scared to death.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5070

And they are so suppressed that they haven’t got a clue about the way the world really is out here. Not that I do either. I’m not saying I have a handle on anything. But I tell you, something is going to happen in that organization sooner or later, whether or not, you know, it’s you guys or whether or not it’s some wacko or whether or not — you know, somebody takes a shot at someone. I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: But I think you are in a position where something can be done. And if they really are dedicated to — you know, saving Scientology, save Scientology, don’t save the shit that’s going on now. Scientology sure as fuck is not that.

MR. RINDER: That’s true.

You know, like I was sort of starting to say — I am going to be totally frank with you — I have this lawsuit and doing this, I have some concerns that we are being set up.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have a concern that I am being set up. Every time I talk to you guys, I have the same concern. But I kind of think, fuck. What’s going to happen, you know? What’s going to

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5071

happen? What if you guys are setting me up? Just to go to court sometime later. You know, that’s how the courts are viewing all this shit, you know: entrapment, setups, lies. They’re taking a beating everywhere they go. You know, no one believes Scientology any more. When you talk about Scientology out there, bullshit. Unbelievable. No credibility. They’ve got no credibility because they are a terrorist organization. You can’t trust terrorists. Never believe ’em.

Anyway, you should have a lot of concerns about it. You know, frankly, I don’t think it matters a damn. It really honestly doesn’t matter a damn if you guys file or not, or if you do anything or if you all go back and just continue on. None of that matters.

MR. RINDER: Well, it does matter.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There you get into some deep philosophic questions which I couldn’t answer. But I’m saying that doesn’t matter.

What I think of the group: real fucking exciting. I think that you guys sit in a situation where, fuck, you can sure get out of the boredom of Scientology for a couple of days. Isn’t it a boring thing?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5072

MR. RINDER: Well, I don’t mind.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Bullshit. It’s fucking boring. Jesus, it’s fucking — Not really, you know, the Scientology — If everyone in there with just any news, the least news. Adrenalin addicts have got to have their data (inaudible). But I don’t — I don’t think it matters. It can be great, you know. It would be real exciting in a sense, you know, I wish I was there because that — Jesus Christ, I think it’s — It’s exciting and you guys could be in a position of doing a great deal of good. But, you know, the rule is not to be fucking —

MR. RINDER: Well, my world will be.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In a sense. In a sense.

MR. RINDER: In a real sense.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Whatever you make it.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. My world revolves around Scientology. I mean that’s the way I am and that’s the way I’m going to stay. You start talking about wow, it’s going to be wiped out, and whack, whack and — you know, that’s not something that I want and, you know, we keep getting stuff back from Joey that says the indictments are going to be coming down and all this sort of shit. I don’t know. I

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5073

don’t know what’s going to happen with that stuff.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, I don’t know either. But what I do know is that the thing cannot remain status quo. It cannot. And it won’t. I don’t know how — I don’t know what’s going to happen. No one does. And that’s why the fact that we don’t know what’s going to happen puts us in a position of being able to do something, because we are not hooked into the way it is.

MR. RINDER: What can we do to make something happen?

MR. ARMSTRONG: You guys can do basically whatever you want.

MR. RINDER: So we got to survive that, too. Whatever we do, we got to survive.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You will survive; there is no doubt of that. Whether or not, you know, it turns out the way you hope — who knows? Who has any expectations? The only thing you get when you get an expectation is an upset, because no exceptation ever happens. You know, no girl you ever went out with ends up exactly the way you thought she was in the beginning. That’s the whole thing about expectations. And when you kind of move away from expectations, then whatever happens, you can live

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5074

with.

MR. RINDER: Right. We have an expectation. Regardless of anything else, we have an expectation that isn’t going to go away that we are still going to be Scientologists. We have no interest in that —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You guys have more hope of being Scientologists if you do this. If you stand up and say, “I am a Scientologist and I don’t want the frigging organization” — you know, “to be this kind of a paranoid operation.” That’s silly. And to think there are government agencies that hate you is also a lot of bullshit. I have talked to probably twenty, thirty people in various places in government the last couple of years. I have not found one who had any problem with Scientology, any vendetta, any desire to stop Scientology or any desire of hurting any Scientologist. Not one. That’s the lie that’s perpetrated on the inside.

MR. RINDER: Well, you know — But I have seen some stuff that says otherwise to that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What?

MR. RINDER: I saw this transcript of a meeting; you know, one of those bugged meetings that they fucking did back in ’74?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5075

MR.ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: I saw a transcript of a fucking meeting between some guys in the IRS. Dedesco, Runk, I think. I think that’s what their names were. And — I mean, I tell you — I’ll tell you, Gerry, the whole tone of that meeting was not — was nothing other than what they really want to do is wipe out the Church. I mean that is an area that I am a little paranoid in. I mean that’s great when you tell me that, but —

MR. ARMSTRONG: What exactly did they want to wipe out?

MR. RINDER: Well, the basic statement in there was something on the order of, you know, just handling the tax-exempt point isn’t enough.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s — That’s the way it is.

MR. RINDER: I mean is what their view is? What else is it they want to handle from IRS? Well I got —

MR. ARMSTRONG: They want to handle the same stuff you guys want to handle.

MR. RINDER: I don’t understand what their motive is for that. I don’t understand why. As fars I know your interest is in collecting taxes,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5076

you know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s true. However, if there is an illegal control of a charitable corporation which is used for illegal means, and if there is money inuring on a grand scale to an individual, then it becomes a different matter. Not only that, but if you look and see how many people have been hurt, then it fast moves out of the realm of a charitable organization.

There is no charity in Scientology. Scientology corporation exists as it is now only as a tool of the very small group at the top. They use it as a tool. They keep enemies at bay, and they are able to wield a lot of power over a lot of people. And the people who’ve got to the top are those who wanted a great deal of power and they were willing to be ruthless to get there and equally ruthless in keeping that power. That’s what — You know, again, these people haven’t said anything to me. They are after Miscavage and they are after Hubbard. And they should be, because Hubbard ripped off a lot of people. He fucking lied to us. While he was telling us that he wasn’t making any money, he was making millions. Fucking crooked. Anyone who opposed him, anyone who sought to have

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5077

conditions better, was smacked down. All the time he was lying about his control. Oh, yeah, he retired in 1966. Horse shit.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Yeah, you know, —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s just the way it is. The guy got greedy. He had some brilliant ideas; he got greedy; that’s it.

MR. RINDER: From our viewpoint, attack — without — I don’t see — my personal view is that that’s not the target for us, very much now. Because if we want to continue to be Scientologists, then he has to remain there and be the source and be that figurehead leader that’s — you know, talked about in SM management.

MR. ARMSTRONG: He can — He can be that thing and you can have that viewpoint regarding him. I don’t have any problem with that or Scientology or anything about it. But I do have a great deal of difficulty with the fact that people’s lives are being fucked around. I mean, no corporation can have more rights than an individual. And when the organization, especially like Scientology, attempts to hide behind a veil of religiosity, Scientology, in my opinion, is a greater threat to the freedom of religion in the United States than anything else.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5078

All this bullshit about Flynn and Clark and all this anti-religion — Flynn is probably one of the most religious people I ever met.

(Stranger borrows a light.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, but that’s just where I stand on it. I sit down here and I see that things are — things are somewhat ludicrous in the organization. Anyone that will put up with that shit.

MR. RINDER: What?

MR. ARMSTRONG: The fucking thing on the big stick, you know. I mean, Jesus Christ, dedicated to the enslavement of man? Come on. You know, and how — After while, where the fuck is the truth? Where the fuck is it? You look at that issue, there isn’t been a goddamned word of truth. I haven’t even testified to the IRS. How could they possibly know what the false reports are? The problem is, Scientology minds are such that they can’t — they fucking can’t read logic. It’s just like, wow, what Ron says is true.

Jesus Christ, you are more important to yourself than L. Ron Hubbard is to you. All the truth that exists is inside you, and to think it’s out there and some other guy’s got it, that’s

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5079

defeatest. Fuck, you guys are all just as big and strong — fuck, you are all in better shape than he is.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s just a reality, but —

MR. RINDER: I don’t want to get into a philosophical argument about, you know, what I think about Scientology and —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. One thing you have to realize, in my opinion, is that nobody, but nobody, wants to stop anyone from practicing Scientology, other than Scientologists. There are people who want Scientology to be destroyed. You look at the — at what great strides they have made to the point where — you know, now it’s all trademarked and copyrighted. That just about spells the death of that religion. You know, it will go to court. There will be a Supreme Court ruling. Because you can’t — you can’t claim to be a religion and not be (inaudible). You can’t say, “Well, I’ve got the only brand of truth.”

MR. RINDER: True.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, and then — like his trademark song and —

MR. RINDER: I mean, is anyone ever going to,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5080

like, argue that point?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Because there is going to be more Scientologists practicing outside than there are inside. Yeah, they will reach a critical number someday. I don’t know when. And I don’t have any stake in it. You know, no one out here is dedicated to the enslavement of man. Maybe a few guys in the organization, but I have never met anyone out here. Not anyone.

MR. RINDER: Well, you see, this thing — it all gets really nebulous about where to go, what to do. That sort of —

MR. ARMSTRONG: It is nebulous, because — simply because we can’t, you know, send information back and forth.

MR. RINDER: We do.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We do, but we really — I mean —

MR. RINDER: You know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know. It’s sort of — In a sense, it’s kind of like — you think it’s different than what everyone over here thinks. You know, what label you put on yourself means fuck off to me. I can talk to any person in the whole world as soon as I’m talking to you. It makes no

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5081

difference. I don’t have anything against Scientology. That’s just so much bullshit, or against Scientologists.

That’s kind of the idea that I think will ultimately be gotten over by everyone who’s inside. It’s going to open the doors and it’s going to be free and they are going to do with Scientology whatever they can do with it. And they are going to start to do something decent, you know, and not just running around trying to make money to pay the attorneys and pay the PIs.

MR. RINDER: Right. Well, see, it all comes back to, like the same basic problem that we are always confronted with of there is something that needs to be changed. There is no question about that. That’s why we exist.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.

MR. RINDER: There is something that has got to change. We don’t want — From our viewpoint, we don’t want to change to the point where Scientology becomes unrecognizable to us as we know and believe that it should be. Do you see what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Therefore, it’s up to you guys. No one anywhere is mandating what it’s going to be. No one. No one even cares. I have a

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5082

personal stake in it in that I simply want all the goddamned lawsuits that are currently going on to end so I can get the fuck out of this stupidity. I want them to settle.

MR. RINDER: You mean like your lawsuit.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Fuck, there isn’t only my lawsuit. You know, I’m a — I’m going to be a witness in every lawsuit that’s coming up from here on out, because I got the fraud. You know, for better or worse, I fucking uncovered it. I got those fucking documents and I uncovered the fraud. I think it behooves the people inside to act — to agree to some degree sensibly about it.

MR. RINDER: And what what do you mean? You mean us?

MR. ARMSTRONG: The organization. I think that it simply is time to say, “You know, here’s the truth.” You know, the fraud and (inaudible) — The organization is not dedicated to truth, it’s dedicated to the pursuit of (inaudible) — it’s something else.

MR. RINDER: So that ought to change it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, in my opinion — Let me ask you some questions.

MR. RINDER: Go ahead.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5083

MR. ARMSTRONG: Joey has on occasion mentioned a figure of thirty-five people who, at least to some degree, know that there’s is a group inside dedicated to change. Okay? How much mobility do they have?

MR. RINDER: And what — You mean, like within the organization, what can I get around to? Where can they — There’s thirty-five, yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So they really don’t have a great deal of mobility. Perhaps there are people who operate out of the — off the property?

MR. RINDER: Uh-huh.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Some of them have mobility?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Aside from the lawsuit — Let’s just put the lawsuits aside, and let’s put aside the concept of attrition, because that’s not influenced a great deal on the outside except as you plug in to make use of situations; right?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: For —

MR. RINDER: That’s not true. It is very much influenced by the outside. Like when you started talking about indicting fifteen are twenty or whatever number of people it is in Canada, that

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5084

has a real effect on the attrition. Come on.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. But you have virtually no control about whether or not one of your boys is going to move up the ladder to replace them.

MR. RINDER: I understand that. But until they go, there is — no one is going to move up the ladder and replace them. Do you see what I’m saying? Carry on.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. I understand the attrition concept. What else can be done? What do you imagine can be done?

MR. RINDER: Well, see, this thing about this lawsuit, I am —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Aside from the lawsuit, aside from attrition. Do we have any — Do we have any potential business with each other? You know, is there some — How do you see me?

MR. RINDER: How do I see you? Well, to some extent I see you as — I see you in two lights. One is the — I feel like you have real — well, potentially have real use in that you have an exterior view, you have a lot of data about, you know, what goes on, what people think, you know what the general tone of affairs is outside of the Church. Which is important to us, you know.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5085

In theory, we could accomplish a takeover on the inside and have it all fucked up on the outside; you know, in theory. That’s an unlikely thing, because once you are in the position where you can control things, you can also control that opinion poll. I also see you as being to some degree a conduit in which we can communicate to people outside, via you.

Then on the other hand, I have my sort of native paranoia state where I wonder whether you are not just setting us up — to you know, come into this lawsuit, make allegations in the lawsuit that may not be true or that we can’t substantiate, for the purpose of just simply disrupting everybody to get their attention off the other suits. You know —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have never conceived of such a thing. But —

MR. RINDER: You see, I know, Gerry. When you say you never conceived of such a thing, to me, that’s not a an unreal thing to think could be going on. You know what I mean?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5086

MR. ARMSTRONG: Granted it never entered my mind, and I don’t exactly see how it would happen, but —

MR. RINDER: Maybe it’s not even you that’s doing it or that you are doing it unwittingly. You know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: You know, who is it that, like you communicate to? And it could be a completely unwitting thing. You could have the view that “Yeah, well, this is really the way I can help these guys, and blah, blah, blah.” And someone else is maybe figuring out how your good intentions to help are actually going to result in just payoffs and — fuck up within the Organization, which would be very beneficial to someone that had that intent. Maybe you do see what I mean — you know —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s how you guys capitalize on it is chaos.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. But we can only capitalize on it is, if out of being assuring chaos, we come out on top. We can’t capitalize on it if we sacrifice to create that chaos, sacrificial lambs, you know. I don’t want to be left hanging on a cross somewhere, having gone ahead with some idea

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5087

that — you know, Gerry Armstrong came up with, like, “Yeah, it sounded all great,” and two months down the line I find out here I sit. I’ve been declared, I now have a fucking suit against me —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That is the down side. That is the — You know, that’s the fucking down side in living. It’s the down side in you meeting with me. This (inaudible) could be a guy driving by, and, you know, bing.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And then there’s a conspiracy rap and you are declared, and they sue you. I mean, that’s — there’s down sides in everything.

MR. RINDER: But, see, that’s a reduced — that has a very much redused possibility as long as I’m careful about what I do. Do you see what I mean? Like I can control that a little more than I can control something that someone else kind of brings along.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: I’m being totally honest with you. You asked me, how do I see you? That’s how I see you. I realize — I mean in saying that, in saying that to you, it’s like a real down side to even saying it to you. I mean I could sit here and

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5088

say, “Yeah, I think you are a great guy and wack, wack, wack.” You know, I realize I’m in a fucking position. I’ve got more to lose probably out of this right now than you have. For myself, maybe not legally, maybe not — The things that I hold as important to me, there’s more threat of loss to me right now than there is to you meeting with me. Do you know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, could be. I mean, I don’t know that any one person’s losses in terms of all guys —

MR. RINDER: Well, you know, you have already said you set yourself up in this position. That’s the thing you are pursuing.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We could be attacked.

MR. RINDER: Just what happens if somebody drives past and sees us? I mean, I don’t know. I guess it could be handled. I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So, do you see anything other than this possibility, that is, you know, aside from the lawsuit and proceeding with that? Do you — you know, is there any percentage in you guys maintaining a communication line with me? Obviously — You see, the thing about living on the outside is that — you know, it’s a pretty free society, and

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5089

there isn’t — there isn’t a lot going on. There’s isn’t a lot being covered up. Do you know what I mean? So you guys — there isn’t a great deal of — of intelligence which can flow from my direction towards you people. You know, I can let you in on — you know, what I hear from the Canadians. But, you know, they are not (inaudible) — they didn’t or can’t say, Well, you know — otherwise their ass is in a knot.

MR. RINDER: From what we understood from Joey, you had some sort of a line that could keep us informed on that sort of shit, because he keeps coming back and saying, “Gerry says that (inaudible) — you know, like ten different times we get this information back on the lines. It’s like — That is valuable to us.

MR. ARMSTRONG: All right.

MR. RINDER: How you have proven out to be hasn’t been too valuable to us so far because it hasn’t happened.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. And yet, you see, in many cases, you see, it’s such an open communication line that anyone could call up Mike Flynn and say, “How is it going?” You know? Even though he does tell me a lot more than he probably

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5090

would tell anyone else, and so are the Canadians. But it’s not going to be anything that is going to — you know, be earth-shaking. If we wanted — You see, if we wanted to get into the passing of very detailed information which could greatly assist — in other words, the creation of a network which is not only within the Organization, but which is outside, then that’s a whole — another thing. That’s something that — you know, could be created, could be developed.

MR. RINDER: How would you do that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I have mobility and I have a lot of people out here. I don’t know what your capabilities are inside. You know, I have often asked a number of questions and I have not gotten answers to a lot of — you know, certain things, so I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: Ask me again. I’ll just tell you one thing.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: Joey doesn’t know everything that’s going on.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who photographed me the other day?

MR. RINDER: He’s a security force.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5091

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know the guy, but I know he’s a security force.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It was simply the guys who walked around the building?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. They have two cars. They have two blue cars with a white top, and they drive around in them.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. I asked for a license number.

MR. RINDER: You asked for license number?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes. The idea is —

MR. RINDER: Okay. We can get those fucking easy.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I asked that same day.

MR. RINDER: That’s why —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. So now we are talking.

MR. RINDER: We can get that sort of shit easy.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you have my list of pay phone numbers?

MR. RINDER: Joey’s still got it. I can get it from him.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. If you guys can arrange an address —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5092

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR.ARMSTRONG: — Some place that mail can go to so that —

MR. RINDER: We can set up a PO box.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s your problem.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Here’s what I would like to do. You know, let’s put aside — Oh, the other thing is, do you want me to do anything with attorneys? Does someone have any money?

MR. RINDER: Well, we don’t have — We don’t have enough money right now to be able — I don’t think any attorney would take this on a contingency.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m not talking about contingency. We are talking about two or three months, (inaudible). You know, it’s going to be — it’s not a protracted legal battle. It can’t be. It cannot be that kind of a thing.

MR. RINDER: Right. That is my concern, because a protracted thing or a thing that gets into a lot of fucking, you know, motions to dismiss and this and that and rack, rack, rack, I don’t think we will survive that. That wasn’t exactly the point of that —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You are asking for injunctive

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5093

relief, and you’re asking for it now, adding another thing. Make a note of this. We have to add into the complaint the threat which you people feel what is going to happen to you when you bring this lawsuit. And you can substantiate that with affidavits on whatever has happened to anyone who has opposed or who has sought to correct things. You know, for example, Franks’ lawsuit, Homer Schomer’s sec check. I don’t know all the details —

MR. RINDER: Those affi’s already exist, though.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, you’ve got to get new affi’s; you can’t just photocopy one from some other lawsuit. But —

MR. RINDER: Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because, you know, you’ve got a brand new complaint. You need new affidavits, newly signed, currently dated. It can’t be just a whole big stack of old documents.

MR. RINDER: Okay. I mean, I take your word on that. I don’t fully understand. I understood that something that was, like, admitted evidence or was taken in an affidavit, you know, with a court reporter or whatever was then admissible evidence in another suit.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5094

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s true. And if you guys can get ahold of it and say, you know, “Here’s what happened in this situation” — but that’s not the affidavit on which the complaint is filed. That’s the supporting documentation.

MR. RINDER: I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who’s your legal mind? Or do you have a legal mind above yourself?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5095

MR. ARMSTRONG: Someone who’s —

MR. RINDER: — a little more afraid than I am with it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

MR. RINDER: I’m not like completely out (inaudible) legal shit.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You’re (inaudible) fine. And I’m not — and I’m no attorney.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay? And also make a note of — get — If we consider going ahead with the lawsuit, you would want to weave into it, you know, violations of Scientology policy. And the reason for that is not so much as to affect the Court, although you can in that way show that they are not the legitimate leaders because they are in continued violation of their own policy, but you want to swing the — you know, the troops around.

MR. RINDER: With the actual complaint, itself?

MR. ARMSTRONG: With the complaint —

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In the complaint and with supporting affidavits.

MR. RINDER: Right. Because that, then,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5096

comes out in the press, rack, rack, and that becomes the substance of the suit —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That becomes the substance as far as the people inside are concerned, because that’s what they go for. “Oh, they were all off policy. They are all went awry.” — Or —

MR. RINDER: I get it. I get it. I mean, we can get that into the press. That would be the angle that could be run like PR mediawise. That’s what you mean, that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: PR media is one thing, but, you know, to your own troops.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. That’s what I mean by the PR stuff. That would be the way that would run, then.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Make another note. I want to, I want an address, PO Box that’ll work.

MR. RINDER: I can set up a PO box. (Inaudible.)

MR. ARMSTRONG: Need a phone number. Need some way — because if I don’t have — if I don’t have our common friend Danny, I have no means of contacting anyone and essentially, I’m out here alone. Right?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. I’m little leery of the phone number. The phone number has got to be some

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5097

sort of fucking pay phone, but then —

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Well, I want a list of pay phone numbers. I got three from Joey, so that if he says call one, I know to call that pay phone. I got that the other day. But I want a whole damned apparatus worked out, otherwise we — you know, we don’t have enough capabilities. It’s too — It’s too damned cumbersome and it’s also — it’s unworkable for me to always drive up here, and for me to always meet in more or less these environments. It can’t work.

MR. RINDER: Okay, I agree. I mean we can — We can set up to meet anywhere you fucking want. The only limitation on that is my ability to be away without creating undue concern about my not being there.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We need to work out those sort of situations, too.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We need to work out a number of things so that people can get out. I can help with that. As I explained to Joey, you know, the Sea Org is so — you know, freaked out about PTSA situations and PR flaps, you can use it to your advantage. You know, “My cousin just got into town

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5098

and he knows you live here somewhere, so you had better go see the asshole. And his mother is anti-Scientology, so I’ve got to go handle it.”

MR. RINDER: I understand.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That way we can continue to spring some people out of the organization, if necessary.

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Also, so we got an address to which material can be sent. We’ve got — I’d like a longer list of pay phones so that we can vary them around.

MR. RINDER: Okay. That’s good.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What do you guys want right now? What can I do? Let’s put the lawsuit aside. If you go with the lawsuit, do you want me to talk to attorneys?

MR. RINDER: Very likely. You see the other thing —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Have you talked to the girl?

MR. RINDER: You see, we are still trying to ge ahold of her. We haven’t been able to reach her yet. Frankly, I don’t know what to say other than we haven’t been able to get ahold of her. You know, Denny has been trying to get ahold of her, too.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5099

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

MR. RINDER: I’m sure she is going to show up in time, but — What do we want from you?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

MR. RINDER: I think you — I mean from my viewpoint?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Uh-huh.

MR. RINDER: Like I said before, you give me something right now. Sitting right here it gives me a different view. That is important. It is important.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, damned right.

MR. RINDER: It’s like that’s something of value.

MR. ARMSTRONG: The fact you are communicating to me is an icebreaker.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In my opinion, that is what’s needed — that’s the thing that’s needed with the organization, is to talk to everyone. I wish you could talk to Flynn. It’s unfortunate. He said it would be inappropriate because of conflict of interest. You know?

MR. RINDER: With regard to him?

MR. ARMSTRONG: In regard to you guys.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5100

MR. RINDER: With regard to us, if we had a brought a suit and we had discussions with him.

MR. ARMSMTRONG: Well, he’ll talk to anyone. There’s no problem with that, but, yeah, as far as — as far as people inside the organization. The reason is, it simply is the way attorneys work. You’ve got a client, you know, you are the client of a bunch of attorneys. You’re CSC or you’re CSI, or whatever you are.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: The client can’t go to the opposing attorney. You can go to them, but the attorney can’t talk. I can’t go to Barry (inaudible); he cannot talk to me. It would be out of line for him to approach me. It would be out of line for Peterson to talk to me.

MR. RINDER: Right. I see. As Church members, then, we would be the opposition. But didn’t he drop this thing?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who? Mike?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know what gave you that idea.

MR. RINDER: If that’s what — I never saw anything else.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5101

MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh. It’s one of my many attorneys.

MR. RINDER: Do you have any cigarettes left?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I really don’t smoke.

MR. RINDER: I’m not going to be too much longer.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Anyway, it is good that everyone talks. That’s the way I see the difference between the current Scientology organization and a future Scientology organization, is that the organization and its members are not afraid to talk to anyone. There’s no more of this, “If you talk to him, you can’t talk to him.” That’s absolutely non-productive. Don’t you agree? I mean, you know, it makes people shrink that this guy’s a bad guy. If you can talk to all the bad guys — big deal.

MR. RINDER: I want to ask you a question. Why did you not answer that question about you dropping the suit?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you think I should answer it?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. If you don’t want to answer it, that’s fine.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know why?

MR. RINDER: Why?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5102

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because if it’s shown someone did it for me for a favor, that’s the only thing. Simply because the organization will construe it as a violation of their civil rights. You know they’re on a civil rights kick right now. It’s got to hurt them. It’s already been judicially stated that they are the civil rights violators. They violate their parishioners’ civil rights. But that’s why; just so that whoever did the favor is not going to be hurt. You know, what if you walked back in the organization and they say, “What have you got?” They pull that out. And you say, “Well what the fuck is this?”

MR. RINDER: I don’t take their shit like that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. Anyway, so that’s just so you can answer the question. It really doesn’t matter does it when the thing is what it is? Right now I will not proceed with anything to do with trying to find you guys an attorney. I gather that the one attorney was not all that hopeful.

MR. RINDER: No. Well, he expressed concern. He said that the causes of action were the correct causes of action, but that the factual allegations —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5103

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: — they gotta be — we’ve got to check them out and make sure they’re factual allegations.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s what Mike has been saying all along. How much does the organization spend on PIs? How much has the organization paid Ingram?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: How much have they paid Peterson?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. I don’t know how much. I don’t know how much —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are you able to get that kind of information?

MR. RINDER: We may be able to. We may be able to get that. But, see, that gets into this question of then, is that — is that a suit that is going to win? Is that a suit that’s going to get us into a position where we actually come out on top?

MR. ARMSTRONG: You can win.

MR. RINDER: I mean, I don’t know what the defense would be to that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: We had to do it because you are being attacked.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5104

MR. RINDER: It’s not illegal and not a loss. I see that as being a very — a very — it’s a gray area and it would depend a lot on the public opinion that is generated surrounding that. You know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, there is two things in it —

MR. RINDER: It’s a legally arguable —

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you get my note which explained that you can proceed, you can make an issue of corporate control without alleging anything.

MR. RINDER: I don’t follow that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, there are hundreds of lawsuits. That’s generally what lawsuits — you know, a lot of times a lawsuit has that form, it is simply disagreement over who has control of corporate funds. That is simply the issue there are alleged there was any criminal misconduct or illegal use of the funds or anything.

MR. RINDER: So this is alleging it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s right. The reason for that is because with that, if you can get any of those things, then you — then the Court can act immediately to freeze the accounts.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5105

MR. RINDER: So unless we have criminal stuff in there, there isn’t really any basis for —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Not criminal stuff, necessarily. Do you have information on the — on the — the boat in Clearwater?

MR. RINDER: I know about the cycle. I mean I know of it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: It happened; right? They paid a lot of money.

MR. RINDER: Yeah, but see, like this is — that there was a scheme to compromise those guys with prostitutes. You know —

MR. ARMSTRONG: So? So there wasn’t. But there lease was — they were lease was a boat. Was there a closed-circuit TV camera? Were they videoed?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. I presume so. If that was the purpose of setting it up, I guess that’s what we read. You know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you know that that took place — You see you have to realize the way things are on the outside, you know, that gets into — that gets into — you know, entrapment.

MR. RINDER: It’s not (inaudible). It’s like bad, bad, business —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5106

MR. ARMSTRONG: No, I don’t think it’s bad. But when a church is doing it, it looks ludicrous. You can say that all the things — you know, if I was hassled by PIs for some time, okay? You can say, “Well, shit, you got PIs following anyone.” Except the way the Court looked at it was, if indeed these things are true, then perhaps this thing ought to be tried across the street in the Criminal Court’s building. That’s the viewpoint that you have got to have. These things are illegal. You can allege the illegalities. You can — I don’t know what people inside know about what Ingram has done or what — even though it’s affidavits authored by the people up at — Mayo’s group. The operations by PIs to discredit someone, the whole thing with Flynn, that thing, itself, is a gold mine to you guys. Just to simply say, you know, the organization funds have been used to attack and discredit and intimidate and harass this one individual, that’s the kind of stuff. And what’s happened in the organization? You know, do you know of anything about the use of PC folders?

I was called by someone — I guess it was Joey — before I went to the UK at the end of June, something about — you know, my PC folders were

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5107

being moved somewhere and there’s a possibility of getting them. Someone in your group knew it about someone knew that PC folders were being moved around. Someone has been involved in the last two years in going through PC folders. Right?

MR. RINDER: Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Have they? Why were my PC folders moved?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know why they were moved.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Where were they coming from?

MR. RINDER: Coming from the CW.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What were they doing in CW? I was never at CW.

MR. RINDER: I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Where were they going to?

MR. RINDER: That’s real circumstantial stuff.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You get the idea. You know, what if someone has has been — Was someone held? Has anyone been held in the organization? What’s the situation in there? Do they —

– – – –

THE COURT: We will back up to that right there. Make a notation of where that is so we can start in the morning at that. We will back it up so

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5108

we can get the context.

April 16, 1985

(Following proceedings held in the presence of the jury.)

THE COURT: Good morning. All right. Why don’t we catch the lights and we will go back to where we ended the tape.

(Continuation of the playing of videotape.)

– – – – –

MR. Armstrong: …to attack and discredit and intimidate and harass this one individual, that’s the kind of stuff. And what’s happened in the organization? You know, do you know anything about the use of PC folders?

I was called by — I guess it was Joey — before I went to the UK at the end of June, something about — you know, my PC folders were being moved somewhere and there’s a possibility of getting them. Someone in your group who knew about it, someone knew that the PC folders were being moved around.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5110

Someone has been involved in the last two years going through PC folders. Right?

MR. RINDER: Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Have they? Why were my PC folders moved?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know why they were moved.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Where were they coming from?

MR. RINDER: They were coming from the CW.

MR. ARMSTRONG: What were they doing in CW? I was never at CW.

MR. RINDER: I don’t know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Where Were they going to?

MR. RINDER: That’s real circumstantial stuff.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You get the idea. What if someone has been — Was someone held? Has anyone been held in the Organization? What’s the situation in there? Do they have guys who frisk people when they come in and out? It doesn’t happen? So you can get whatever out you want?

MR. RINDER: Yeah, I can get out anything I want. (Inaudible)

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know. In any case they went through a very elaborate, very elaborate

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5111

way of keeping things for the bottom of the fucking trash cans sitting out there —

MR. RINDER: They were more into that sort of shit than I am. I mean, I can walk in and out with stuff. You know, what is it that I walk in — you know, I don’t totally follow where that — where that leads.

MR. ARMSTONG: Where it leads is simply, number one, what’s the atmosphere inside. You know, in a complaint, you are going to have to state the facts as you know them. I don’t know, maybe there are no facts. Maybe it never happened and maybe Ingram doesn’t even work for the organization. I mean the fucker threatened to put a bullet between my eyes.

MR. RINDER: Are you kidding me?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Did you guys get the tape? I — as I understand it, the tape — I don’t know. I think I’m probably being set up. This thing here is hotter than a pistol. Anything I send you guys —

MR. RINDER: You mean this draft?

MR. ARMSTONG: (Inaudible) of whatever I sent in to —

MR. RINDER: I’m the only one.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You are the only one? That’s

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5112

not what I sent in.

MR. RINDER: Which? This?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: This is the copy. The other one’s stored.

MR. ARMSTRONG: how about the one that the girl had?

MR. RINDER: You got it back.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So there is at least two?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. I know exactly where they are at. There are two copies and I know exactly where they are at. It’s not like I left them with complete ignoramuses.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Not at all. In fact, you know, I’m in a more vulnerable position, because I can be — you know, I’m so visible. What if I dropped out of sight?

MR. RINDER: We’d need you.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Not necessarily.

MR. RINDER: We could set it up so that if you just dropped out of sight —

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s beneficial. Maybe you can drive the organization —

MR. RINDER: What?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know. Do you have

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5113

some old intelligence personnel in there?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Guys who think this stuff? That’s the problem that I see, is, you know, the intelligence possibilities are enormous because the organization is an intelligence operation, so it’s vulnerable. It exists on secrecy and the need to know, so it’s vulnerable along those lines. An open society is not nearly as vulnerable. What if they find out — You know, there is no real down side with me. But they’re vulnerable, and we are not as vulnerable as they are. You know, they are bigger because they have all the bucks. But I don’t see that that’s any problem in the long run. (Inaudible)

MR. RINDER: That’s very true. That’s very true. I mean, that’s one of the things that we have got to try and preclude because, if we get into that position, they don’t want to spend all of the fucking money to handle fucking lawsuits.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s right. That’s not Scientology.

MR. RINDER: Right, it isn’t. You are right. That money —

MR. ARMSTRONG: It shouldn’t be spending its

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5114

money on that; it should do something decent in the world. Something decent can come out of it, not just a lot fat folders and sec checks and broken families. That’s crazy. So —

MR. RINDER: So what if you dropped out of sight? I didn’t totally follow the progression there. What advantage would that be?

MR. ARMSTRONG: It could possibly be a great deal of advantage. But —

MR. RINDER: I’m not following that. I’m not — You mean we could maintain a comm line with you even though you were not as visible to everybody else in the organization?

MR. ARMSTRONG: When someone drops out, it really excites people. You know what I mean?

MR. RINDER: Like Terri Gamboa and Gerry Armstrong —

MR. ARMSTRONG: If that were to happen, then —

MR. RINDER: Don’t you think that would just attract more attention to you and make it more difficult for us?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t — I don’t see why, necessarily.

MR. RINDER: Okay. So what do you see in

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5115

that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know everything that can be developed, but possibly I see — I see the possibility of removal of the PIs. Say they remove the PIs, they’ve got to set up their own internal information apparatus again.

MR. RINDER: Uh-huh.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right now, you guys — it’s all done by the PIs. Who has the PI reports?

MR. RINDER: They go to — They go to OSA Int.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Where is that?

MR. RINDER: You mean what building? It’s about the same as Pac.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who’s in it?

MR. RINDER: ASHO Int?

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Witness nodded head.)

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. Possibly —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are they in a position where they can find out what’s going on?

MR. RINDER: Not necessarily everything, but they — there is definite lines.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are they in a position where they can — they can get current strategy? Are they in a position where they can get PI reports? Can they find out who are the operating PIs currently?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5116

MR. RINDER: Probably.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Because what if the operating PIs — what if someone can do some leg work on finding out who the fuck they are and find out what the fuck they have done. Ingram is a rather unsavory character. If you were to put together that in itself, if you were to put together, you know, a sheet on these people — let’s say you come up with some criminal past. Let’s say you come up with some real sleezy dealings, that in itself is commended PR leverage.

MR. RINDER: Why?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Maybe you can’t necessarily do all those things. Maybe CID can run a make on them. CID asked for — you know, who took photographs and gave me a license number. I got a partial license number, but I couldn’t get the whole thing. 1DD, or DD something. A couple of D’s in there.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I would like to — I mean they can do it. They will run checks.

MR. RINDER: On what basis will they do that sort of shit?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, anyone who talks to

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5117

them is a witness.

MR. RINDER: You know — How are you going to call the fucking CID and say, “Can you run a make on this car?”

MR. ARMSTRONG: I want to know because I’m a witness. If I can get the guy, we can have his ass down there. I’ll subpoena the guy. That’s the kind of liaison where, you know, we can actually — you know, cause a lot of things to happen if there is this kind of detailed information going back and forth. You know, if I know the name of the guy, we can issue a subpoena for him, find out what the fuck he was doing there, on what basis he was photographing me. You know, that’s the kind of stuff. And you will back the fuckers off.

MR. RINDER: Do you feel like it would be best for you to drop out of sight to pull that sort of stuff off?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Not necessarily. I’d just see that — I know that that excites the organization when you can’t find somebody.

MR. RINDER: We don’t want to excite them. I’m a little lost on that as to why we would want to excite them about you. I mean, if you are our comm line —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5118

MR. ARMSTRONG: If you don’t — you don’t have anyone else whose life you are potentially in control of around here, you know, in a position such as myself, someone wwho — someone who could excite them. I mean I have excited them; right?

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There’s been times when it was get-Armstrong week; right? The same thing could happen again. And maybe this time when it happens they can be set up. Maybe you can get what you need.

MR. RINDER: And do something?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I can do something. I don’t know the form it can take, but I know that if you got some intelligence personnel in there and you give them the idea, I mean there is a lot of things that can develop. You know. With our existing communications line, it’s such a unique situation, that it can be developed into anything you want. I think that we should be a lot more secure than we have been, because I do not believe for a second that — you know, that the PIs do not tap phones.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I think that they they do.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5119

And I also think that the PIs are not necessarily telling the organization what the fuck is going on.

MR. RINDER: You think they might be, like scared of leaks?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, they are possibly scared of leaks, sure, because they don’t want to — If you were being paid what they’re being paid, wouldn’t you want to maintain this thing? If you look at whose got a vested interest in the lawsuits continuing, it’s the attorneys and the PIs. You got people on the top, too, because that’s how you keep troops in line. You gotta have enemies, and they know it and they play it. But the attorneys, you know, who recommend that they file more lawsuits and more lawsuits, they are crazy. They’re just prolonging it, because no one —

Look at the stats. In the last two years has anyone — three years has anyone backed off from the organization? Have they had any wins? They probably count them as wins, but give me a break. Also there’s more documents out right now. There is more people willing to talk. They went after Mayo, and what did those fuckers do? Ended up talking to the Feds. You know, whoever in their wisdom is running this thing is doing a fucking botched job,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5120

which is another reason why, you know, you guys would be smart to move in, because, you can’t keep driving away the parishioners forever and end up with any money.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know. And I’m involved in this because, you know, in a sense it’s where I live. In another sense, you see, I’m very altered at getting out of the organization, because I don’t give a fuck anymore. I don’t have the thing about life and death that I used to have. In fact, I would rather welcome a bullet. In a sense it puts me in a rather powerful position. Not that I’m looking for it, not that I really contemplate doing it myself, but I don’t care. I mean if you guys can view the fact that I don’t care, and the fact that I’m right, and the fact that I disappear, and other facts which you can use —

I mean I envisioned it at the outset that potentially you guys could develop an intelligence apparatus which the organization does not have currently simply by scooping the PIs. If you had some intelligence on Armstrong, you know, you could get a feather in your cap and possibly move up in that way to the point where you’re let in on what

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5121

the fuck’s going on. Or someone — you know what I mean? If suddenly you are the only guy who has — you know, let’s say someone in the organization that had the sense to retain a mole somewhere. Let’s say that someone — we could set it up so someone got close to me, then you’ve got your intelligence network. And then back the PIs off because you don’t want them fucking up.

And suddenly you are getting funding to get them intelligence and you don’t give a fuck if they did or not, but they get real excited about it. The people at the top get excited about little — this happened and that happened. They start buzzing about it; right?

MR. RINDER: Uh-huh.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You should give them something to buzz about. I don’t know the formula, because it’s so unique. I don’t know your capabilities or who you’ve got on the outside or, you know, the communication lines by which it could happen. We could set the whole goddamned thing up so that — so that you’ve got someone from the organization in the same apartment complex that I live in, that I moved to. Do you know what I mean? Possibly in that way, you can have enough

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5122

information so that it makes sense for your contacting the people at the top about it.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. RINDER: And becoming part of the plot simply because your the guy who’s got it, and they’re going to depend on you. You follow me?

MR. RINDER: Right. I’m following you.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5123

MR. ARMSTRONG: There’s a lot of possibilities. How they can be worked out, I don’t know. But I know that — I know that if we determine to say, “Okay, (inaudible) keep the lawsuit on the back burner, you know, attrition goes on as ever it goes on. And now let’s — let’s see what else we can do.”

I don’t know what can be done between us. Obviously I can get you information as it becomes available to me, you know. And hopefully you can do the same for me. I mean that’s a very valuable thing, just to know — you know, who filed — or who photographed me. That’s valuable because it can be used, because you can get — The organization can be nailed for intimidating witnesses. I’m a federal witness; you can’t go around photographing me.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So some stupid fuckhead in the organization tries to be a hero. I would like to know who it was. You haven’t heard anything about the manuscript?

Probably, my guess is that it will only go to the top, very top. But the fact that I’m writing a book, the organization can’t stand people that write books. You know, it was done to people who have

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5124

written books before. The same thing is true here. And the book is — you know, they know that I’ve got data and they know that I can spring it together.

MR. RINDER: Right. Maybe — Maybe it would be —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know either. But I know that there are a lot of things that can be worked out. I would kind of hesitate to do them if — you know, if we are going in different directions. I think that —

MR. RINDER: I don’t think we are going in different directions.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t think so at all. I think both of us, you know, want to see the organization transformed into something decent.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s what I want to see, because when it’s something decent, I can deal with it, and everyone else can deal with it. You know, we can get on about life and, you know, whatever is valuable in life. It isn’t valuable to me to continue to battle that organization. But I’ll continue to do it. And I think that everyone else —

MR. RINDER: Why do you do that?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5125

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do what?

MR. RINDER: Why are you continuing to battle with it?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, because it’s natural. Philosophically I see that it has to be transformed. I mean —

MR. RINDER: Like you have a right to personal —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you think after fifteen years I can say, okay, I can walk away from that? Come on. I put as much into it as you did. I put my whole fucking life into that thing.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: To say that I’m any less a Scientologist than anyone else is bullshit. But I have a higher commitment to the truth than I do to some label, which is at best is a symbol of a symbol of a symbol. At this point, it’s becoming virtually meaningless to say what was a Scientologist is no longer a Scientologist.

MR. RINDER: Right. Yeah, I understand that. That’s for real.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t have anything against Hubbard. Not a damned thing. I think that — you know, I guess the ultimate thing about Hubbard is

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5126

that he is exactly like us. Exactly. Not a fucking particle of difference. And he didn’t rise above the bank.

Such things may be possible. In facts, since getting out of the organization, more has happened, you know, mentally than the whole time I was in it, to the point where, like I say, I’m radically altered. I was never like this inside. You never even heard from me inside.

MR. RINDER: I saw you screaming around the between decks every now and then.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Rarely. You know. That’s a whole different thing.

MR. RINDER: So what do you think? Where are we — Where do we go from here at this point? Like, we still gotta — I mean I’m — You said a number times that regardless of the lawsuit, regardless of the lawsuit, regardless of the lawsuit. This is still something that I am interested in proceeding with if we can get it into a framework where it’s something that we can actually pull off. I’m not interested in it if we are just going to end up crucifying ourselves by bringing a suit. And I’m not, going to be stupid enough to do that. I —

MR. ARMSTRONG: I know. And again, I think

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5127

that it has a tremendous possibility. It has tremendous possibility and it really doesn’t matter about the outcome. It may to you, in some — in some fashion right now. But you have to think that that cuts you off from Scientology or what you — you know, what you consider important. God, it may even be a temporary setback. But that’s the most it can be. You know, I think, fuck, grab the bull by the horns. Sue the fuckers. I mean, that’s —

MR. RINDER: We’ve got to go into this thing with something that has good grounds.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. And that’s why you guys have to come up with affidavits. And you should be sending —

MR. RINDER: That was the question that I asked.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Send me the fucking affidavits.

MR. RINDER: From who? From our guys?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, now we are talking. Your guys, yes. It would be real smart if your guys, who worked in the organization, whoever decides to do it, whoever says, “I’ll take the fucking plunge.” You know, Mike said that we’ve got seven or eight. He also said, you know, use three or four outside.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5128

In other words, get an affidavit from Schomer, because Schomer can give you the money. He can say this amount of money was sent to the (inaudible) corporation. Schomer can say thirty million in a given period. That’s big bucks. Okay? Schomer, Nelson, maybe someone else on the outside. I don’t know who. I really don’t know. And let’s say you had a few guys on the inside, guys who decided, I’ll take the plunge. And you don’t have to throw all your eggs into that basket. And —

MR. RINDER: And what do we want on these affidavits from these guys? I mean, I’m still —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You want anything that is known about monies, the organization; number one, going to a profit corporation ASI; number two, control by ASI.

MR. RINDER: ASI. Control by ASI. Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Control by ASI. Use of organization monies for whatever reason. You guys can come up with the reasons. Okay. The boat in Clearwater. These are the only things I know about in the last couple of years. The Clearwater deal. The frameup of Mike Flynn. Anything that you know about PIs to harass individuals. Anything you know about — about — you know, money being spent for

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5129

what you would consider, anyone would consider noncharitable purposes — you know, to destroy people. You know, the control — Where is the control? I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: I’m seeing what you are talking about. These guys have to have, like, personal knowledge of this shit or what? I mean — From what I understand, when you write an affidavit, you have got to, like, find guys who have —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you have any personal knowledge?

MR. RINDER: Some. Some. But I’d —

MR. ARMSTRONG: What’s wrong with Flynn?

MR. RINDER: I’d rather not. I’d rather not — I mean, as soon as I — as soon as I was to write an affidavit, then that is going to go somewhere with my name on it, wherever it goes, to our attorneys.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Don’t even sign the fucking thing. I want some affidavits so that they can be — so that you know — What the fuck is this? What are the allegations? You know, because I’m — I mean, I’m kind of getting from you, “Well, shit the organization is fine. It’s not doing anything illegal.” And I’m sitting here on the outside,

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5130

knowing that they want me fucking dead, and that I was threatened by Eugene Ingram. He was going to put a bullet between my fucking eyes. I know that they are up to their eyebrows in it. They must have paid — I mean — how much in — How much did they pay?

MR. RINDER: Do we have to find someone that has personal knowledge of that in order to get an affidavit of those things?

MR. ARMSTRONG: How much was paid to Ingram?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. I don’t know that they did.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who paid? Who paid Ingram?

MR. RINDER: I presume the attorneys paid him.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, but it comes from your money.

MR. RINDER: Right. So it would be how much is paid to the attorney; right? I mean that’s what we want to know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who gets an accounting of what, you know — Your Board members. Your fucking Board members. The guys on the Board can’t find out? Those are the people that should be signing it — should be doing it.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5131

MR. RINDER: I’m not asking about whether they can find out, but whether they need to in order to be able to do this. Do you see what I’m saying?

MR. ARMSTRONG: They can allege it. They can allege it. They don’t even have — They can allege it.

MR. RINDER: So they don’t have to, like — They don’t have to have the — you know, documents sitting in front of them and —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You can say the organization destroyed the document. Your organization destroyed it. But you can simply say, you know, upwards of millions of dollars have been paid, and fucking attach the goddamned — If you attach freedom and say that the whole thing is crock of shit, that — fucking — you know, a Court has to look at that seriously. You know, the fact that — you know, how about — how about — Oh, mailing lists. Can you get mailing lists? Who — Who got freedom? How much was paid for freedom? Who was it sent to? You know, how about these issues being put out on people? Who gets them? How much money is spent on that shit?

MR. RINDER: Is that all going along this same line of —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5132

MR. ARMSTRONG: The fact that organized — number one, there is — you have to say there is a conflict, a disagreement about control of funds. Number two, we are requesting the assets be frozen immediately. And the reason is this, this, this and this. Organization that is supposedly a religious organization, is spending nonprofit funds to destroy someone’s reputation. They are paying private investigators millions of dollars to destroy someone’s reputation. Fabricated evidence. You can allege that.

I have a lot of faith in Mike Flynn. You know, I really don’t know one way or the other whether or not that the Tamimi thing is bullshit. But I have also spoken to the U.S. — Deputy U.S. Attorney in Boston, and everything I get from anyone is they are going on the basis that it’s bullshit and will uncover it sooner or later. They are trying to extradite Tamimi right now.

MR. RINDER: That’ll be a real PR coup.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And I’m saying, you guys can allege it. Also, I mentioned to Joey last time, I don’t think anyone has to get in a frame of mind where if they don’t file this thing two days following the indictments, like they have to take a

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5133

big loss on it, I wouldn’t — you know, within your group, I would let them know that, you know, the timing is not that critical. It’s more sensible that everything be well-done and well prepared and well thought out.

MR. RINDER: Right. I completely concur with that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: However, you know, I would not delay years.

MR. RINDER: As a matter of fact —

MR. ARMSTRONG: So — Just so the boys inside don’t take a big loss on, “Fuck, no, we didn’t do it when the indictments happened.” It can be done. And also I think something should happen in the next couple of months.

You guys should fucking get affidavits. You know, probably the boys — some of them aren’t writers; right? It’s a real pain. I know. I have written — There’s all of these things. You see, it isn’t just organizational. There is all the personal conflicts and all the egos that are all involved in the whole thing.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And the — You know, but — Get me what they can. Part of what I —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5134

MR. RINDER: What do you want to do with it?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I want to fucking see what can be done. Otherwise —

MR. RINDER: You want to just sit down and go over it?

MR. ARMSTRONG: I want to go over it, I want to have them and I want to give them to an attorney. I want to talk to the girl, and I want to set up an office, and I want to set up a separate corporation. I want to set up a corporation which is — which will act as, outside the organization, a clearing house for improving conditions inside, just the same way as OSA is currently requesting all these knowledge reports. Set up an office somewhere and, via the organization’s own mailing list, get knowledge reports on the guys at the top, with the intention of — there is so many things that can be done. And I want to set up with — you know, with her, an office so that — so that, you know, you guys — you know, you don’t all own typewriters. You don’t type?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know if there is too much problem getting access to typewriters.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know.

MR. RINDER: Everybody doesn’t have a

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5135

typewriter, that’s true.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. And you can’t be sitting at your desk typing up an affidavit.

MR. RINDER: That’s very true.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You see? So you’re going to need someone — you know, you can give me a rough draft and, you know, we can rework it and send the damned thing back in and type the signature.

MR. RINDER: Good.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s the kind of thing (inaudible). That’s why I want to see her, because I told her, I would say — initially I would say, “I think twenty thousand bucks to an attorney and we need to set up, you know, a clerical office somewhere.” I can’t continue to do it. My wife can’t continue to do it, but I can do it if we have sum funding. I mean, I stay completely fucking broke during this shit.

MR. RINDER: I’m not making a million out of it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Is there any information on what the guys at the top are paid? The boys in the ASI? What is the control?

MR. RINDER: ASI — I mean I can find out what — what the guys, CSI people are paid. ASI? I

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5136

don’t know. We can find that out from Homer.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That way it was back then. They were making a lot of money.

MR. RINDER: Well, I doubt that that’s changed. We could get that from Homer. That’s a line that could be used via you maybe to get that stuff from Homer.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Are organization funds being sent elsewhere? And you can say, “Well, it’s all legitimate because those are the agreements.” Who the fuck signed the agreements? Where are the agreements?

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, if you are a Board member, are they just figureheads or just some jerk they pulled in and said, “Here, sign this whenever we bring them around”?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know whether I would characterize them as jerks, but —

MR. ARMSTRONG: They are treated like jerks, I’m saying.

MR. RINDER: Everbody is a bit of a jerk that gets treated like jerks right now. You know what I mean.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Simply because the attorneys

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5137

are running it.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. I mean —

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) Hell, enough of this fucking bullshit, the organization being run by attorneys. That’s bullshit.

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Anyway, — Anyway, organization funds are going elsewhere where they ought not to be. Let’s just say that, you know, CSC can do something or that — are the Board members knowledgeable enough of legal things to be able to find it? Where the fuck are the minutes kept? What are the agreements? Where is this — Where is this — Who represents CSC? Who keeps all this shit?

MR. RINDER: Right. I don’t know that they need to be legally knowledgeable to be able to find out where that stuff is.

MR. ARMSTRONG: How do we get a copy of it?

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Let’s find out what the agreements are, let’s find out who signed them and then let’s go talk to who signed them and find out the circumstances under which they signed them. Where are the agreements?

MR. RINDER: Okay.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5138

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know the way I see this is ultimately going? Probably the organization will end up suing all of its former attorneys who have given you guys fucked legal advice. Just fucked advise, because it’s cost a lot of money, no return, and the organization’s public relations stance is worse than it’s ever been. All the PIs are brought on everyone, with all their wisdom, and are potentially a bunch of indictments and a lot of ill will. And that’s malpractice any way you slice it.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: And look at the possibility of finding out how many people — how many Board members does it take to form a quorum, and the form of their resolutions and —

MR. RINDER: Whether they have to be at a meeting or someone can resolve something and pass it around for signature?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Sure. If you have Board members, do they ever have a meeting? That alone. What if he says, “Well, you know, we never have meetings and it’s all bullshit and I just sign things”? You know, if it’s all a facade, that alone —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5139

MR. RINDER: Yeah, I’ve got it.

MR. ARMSTRONG: But If it isn’t a facade, and the Board can actually do something, the Board members have a vote, then maybe one day during a Board meeting something can be said, that maybe we need some new attorneys. We ought to get an assessment. Or how about just a resolution drafted and signed by enought people so that it can happen. And then you’re indemnified.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5140

The fucking — The fucking board decided to get some more attorneys. And then other people, you know, contact the attorneys, not necessarily the old ones who are all entrenched.

MR. RINDER: Uh-huh.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, independent attorneys. You can look at it like, you know, all our legal things — Let’s say that the agreement is that all legal matters are handled by CSI. Number one, that’s probably illegal; number two, it sets CSC up to take the fall, then they don’t have control of (inaudible) Right? You’ve got to find out who deals with the attorneys. Does the Board deal with the attorneys? Who does?

MR. RINDER: The Board doesn’t deal with the attorneys.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Who does?

MR. RINDER: There’s — Well, for the most part there’s — you know what OSA is?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: The guys in OSA deal with the attorneys.

MR. ARMSTRONG: OSA is — Do they develop legal strategies?

MR. RINDER: Yeah.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5141

MR. ARMSTRONG: Or do they get direction from above? I mean is CSC independent or is it not? It’s not?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know. It depends on which context that question is framed, you know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: In reality.

MR. RINDER: I don’t think that you can really say that any of the Church is independent, any of the — You know what I mean?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. Now they allege independence, of course, in terms — like if I were to sue CSC or if I were to — you know, they allege independence, that’s the way they get arouond the various lawsuits. All that’s a single corporation. Right?

MR. RINDER: I don’t know, Gerry. I don’t know the answer to that question. I presume that —

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible) a separate corporation?

MR. RINDER: From which?

MR. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible.)

MR. RINDER: Yeah, as far as I know, that’s run completely separate.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do they operate separately or are they underneath — are they subject to Sea Org

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5142

personnel coming in and telling them what to do?

MR. RINDER: I presume they would be subject to that. You know, that would be the way that I would see — sure, if some missionnaire walked in there, that that — they’d sort of stand up and salute, you know.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s because it’s not independent. You know, missionnaires can’t walk into the corner grocery store and say, “Listen you guys, give me ten percent of your take.”

MR. RINDER: Isn’t that ecclesiastic?

MR. ARMSTONG: Fuck. That’s the differentiation. You guys got — you guys are bought. You know, when I was in the Sea Org, we never even fucking had the word “ecclesiastic.” That was a — That is bullshit. That’s been created in order to allow the organization or allow the group at the top to retain control. And people buy it.

It’s like, you know — We never even called it the Church when I was in. It’s just all a kind of PR bullshit that people are buying, party line. And you need to make a very distinct differentiation between what’s ecclesiastic, because then you are talking the tech, whatever the fucking tech is, and

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5143

whatever the philosophy is. But when you are talking about — well, I can go in and order you to do whatever I want, open up your books; right? — and not only that, but I can go in an rip off whatever I want and I can send you to the RPF, it’s hardly ecclesiastic.

MR. RINDER: Okay. Well, okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

MR. RINDER: I mean, okay. That’s a new view. You know what I mean? That’s what I’m saying about that external — that external look at things is something of great value, because it points out things that — that have become so —

MR. ARMSTRONG: — ingrained.

MR. RINDER: Yeah. — that it’s like you don’t see them anymore. It’s like, you know, the boys have been setting the trees all around here and, (inaudible). “Look at all these trees around here,” I go, “Tree? What fucking trees are you talking about?”

Anyway, I’m a little concerned about getting in their way. You have already given me a lot of shit to talk over.

MR. ARMSTRONG: There are so many ideas, you know, it just — it’s endless. You see, I can’t

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5144

control it. I can’t control your group.

MR. RINDER: I know you can’t. And there’s no way that we can put you in the position to control it, because I’m not going to sit here and say, “Oh, yeah, well, you know, we got this guy here and this guy there, and la da da da da, because that’s a pointless breach of security, in my view. You know, why do that?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. It does make sense for me. There are certain things that — that are very helpful to know. I don’t need to know who your people are, but there are certain times when I need to know, you know, can you get this information? Can you find this thing out? Do you have anyone in Clearwater?

MR. RINDER: We can get stuff from Clearwater.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Do you know where my PC folders are?

MR. RINDER: all of them?

MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Any of them.

MR. RINDER: Probably we could find out where those ones that were being shipped before.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know why they were being shipped?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5145

MR. RINDER: No. I don’t know why they were being shipped.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know who ordered them shipped?

MR. RINDER: No.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Can you find those things out?

MR. RINDER: Possibly, yeah.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Make a note, you know, anything that people know about PC folders; anything that, you know, the missuse to which these things are put; any culling that has gone on; any information which has gone to PIs. Who deals with PIs? The OSA people?

MR. RINDER: Well, yeah. The way that the PI line works, as far — well, you know, on the ones that I have any understanding about, it goes from OSA to the attorneys to the PIs.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Is Peterson the main guy?

MR. RINDER: Yeah, he’s the main attorney.

MR. RINDER: He’s such a dumb shit. He’s just a political, you know. He just kind of maneuvers and sleezes his way along. He’s a fucking shitty attorney. He really is very stupid.

MR. RINDER: I’ll make sure we don’t take

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5146

that to him.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You’ve met him, eh?

MR. RINDER: Yeah. I’ve met him.

MR. ARMSTRONG: He’s fucking dense. I don’t know. I mean — But he’s a sleeze, you know, so he kind of stays in his little niche of power by sleezing and by not being the guy to take the falls on all the cases that they lose; right? He’s the fucking guy.

MR. RINDER: He’s still there.

MR. ARMSTRONG: He’s a dumb shit, too.

MR. RINDER: Well, listen —

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, lay that kind of information up. Who has firsthand knowledge of that?

MR. RINDER: Of which?

MR. ARMSTRONG: Of that use of the PIs; that that’s the line. You know, money is paid to attorneys and that — and they in turn deal with the PIs. What information is given to the attorneys? Has anyone got one instance of anything from anyone’s PC folders being told to an attorney or a PI? Anything. Anything that you can think of that is just — it’s either corrupt or it’s rotten or even borders on illegal. And illegal does not

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5147

necessarily mean the commission of a crime. It just means money used for the wrong purpose.

MR. RINDER: That’s like civil, as opposed to criminal criminal?

MR. ARMSTRONG: This isn’t a civil matter.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, just to say that number one, the organization is in control of people who ought not to control it; number two, they grab power by “X” means — however they grab the power; number three, the current Board of Directors are mere figureheads, you know; number four, you know, so much money has been paid to do such and such; number five, you know, money was paid to PIs, $250,000, to entrap people in Florida. You know, so much was paid to — you know, you can just say millions of dollars is being paid to PIs to harass and frame the viewed enemies of the Organization. All those kinds of things that are not the way you want it to be. You know? What is the organization now?

And then, get damned affidavits written. I don’t care if they can’t even write, but just put down into as sensible a form as possible whatever information the people who you predict could

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5148

potentially sign a complaint.

MR. RINDER: One of the guys that would actually be the plaintiffs to do those. The guys that have — well, they’re obviously going to be the same people.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, on the other hand there are other people on the outside.

MR. RINDER: Right.

MR. ARMSTONG: Homer Schomer; maybe Mayo, I don’t know; John Nelson; perhaps other people, who have been the subject of harassment or who know of organization monies being used improperly.

MR. RINDER: Well, you may have to help us with those ones.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I will help. I want also to find out about — about money and whether or not someone wants me to talk to attorneys.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Get me phone numbers, pay phone numbers. I’ll only call if it’s absolutely desperate. Also you guys should set up a contingency, I think. Figure something out — I will be the person if you want — so that if someone is held inside, that they are able to know that there’s some means of getting that information out.

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5149

Because you know, no one wants anyone to be hurt.

MR. RINDER: That’s very true.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So figure out —

MR. RINDER: Very true.

MR. ARMSTRONG: So figure out some contingencies like that so that every twenty-four hours — if there isn’t a call every twenty-four hours, call the Feds.

MR. RINDER: Okay.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Something, you know. I don’t know what form it will take, but I think we should be real smart — It’s freezing up here.

MR. RINDER: Me, too.

MR. ARMSTRONG: I think it would be real smart to develop it, you know in the park.

MR. RINDER: So — I’m not going that direction.

MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s fine.

MR. RINDER: What I want to do, I have quite a bit of shit to talk over here, go over with the other guys, and I will get in contact with you using the numbers that you already have for right now.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Call my place.

MR. RINDER: Give you — You got those ones from Joey, right?

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5150

MR. ARMSTRONG: I got three.

MR. RINDER: I will give you one of those.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good.

MR. RINDER: You can then — I will go to that phone, you know, and I’ll tell you half an hour or whatever. You can call me there, and then I’ll set out and we’ll meet somewhere else.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good.

MR. RINDER: Then when I come next time I’ll bring another list of numbers to you —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

MR. RINDER: — and you can throw it away.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. And some means so that if — you know, if I want to —

MR. RINDER: We can set up — I don’t see there’s any problem in setting it up so that you could call a number, like even — even in Joey’s area, just call that number and leave a message for him. Not you, but —

MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. I understand.

MR. RINDER: — under a suitable guise. You know, your mother called and left a message and wants you to call her back or something. And he wouldn’t even have to go to the phone or anything; he would just have the message passed to him like —

G. ARMSTRONG – ReD – 5151

MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t know his name. But anyway —

MR. RINDER: That’s fine. That’s fine.

MR. ARMSTRONG: By the way, you are just some blond guy with a long, black beard; that’s the only thing I remember.

MR. RINDER: Right. Well, I appreciate that.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. Good to see you again.

MR. RINDER: You, too. Bye-bye.

MR. ARMSTRONG: Bye.

(End of videotape on November 17, 1984.)

Notes

  1. Transcript taken from Christofferson v. Scientology:  Excerpt of Proceedings April 15 and April 16, 1985. ↩

Filed Under: Legal Tagged With: Gerry Armstrong, Loyalist Program, Loyalists, Michael J. Rinder

Christofferson: Excerpt of Proceedings (April 12,15, 1985)

April 12, 1985 by Clerk1

http://gerryarmstrong.org/50k/legal/related/5202.php

Filed Under: Legal Tagged With: B-1 files, Christofferson v. Scientology, Clayton C. Ruby, Earle C. Cooley, Eugene M. Ingram, Gerry Armstrong, John G. Peterson, Judge Donald H. Londer, L. Ron Hubbard, Laurel Sullivan, Loyalist Program, Mary Sue Hubbard, Michael J. Rinder, Nibs, Omar Garrison, Philip A. Rodriguez

Christofferson: Excerpt of Proceedings (April 11, 1985)

April 11, 1985 by Clerk1

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE STATE OF OREGON

FOR THE COUNTY OF MULTNOMAH

JULIE CHRISTOFFERSON TITCHBOURNE,
Plaintiff,
vs.
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY, MISSION OF DAVIS, a non-profit California corporation, doing business in Oregon; CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA, a California corporation, doing business in Oregon; and L. RON HUBBARD,
Defendants.
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No. A7704-05184

EXCERPT OF PROCEEDINGS

Volume IX
Pages 4640 to 4835
Testimony of Gerald D. Armstrong

April 11, 1985

BILL ELLIS & ASSOCIATES
Court Reporters
1001 S. W. Fifth Ave.
Portland, Oregon

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4686

THE COURT: Well, I said yesterday afternoon and I am going to watch this fairly closely the rest of this day, we are not here to build a case for whatever cases are going on around the country. I’ll address this to the gentlemen in the audience. I’m trying the Christofferson case.

MR. COOLEY: Two days we gave him discovery in the California case.

THE COURT: Well, I don’t know where the lawyers present are from or what cases and I don’t really care. That’s their job. It’s that we are trying the issues in this case, as I see them, and I’m going to try to limit it to that.

MR. COOLEY: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: We’ll take a few minutes.

(Court recessed at 10:57 a.m. and reconvened at 11:17 a.m.)

MR. COOLEY: Before we bring in the jury, Your Honor, you remember, I told the Court I would continue my examination. I told the Court I was continuing to check on whether there were additional tapes, and I am now informed there are tapes of meetings with Mike Rinder on November 19 and November 30, 1984. I have no intention of using them, but I want to inform the Court that they do

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4687

exist.

MR. McMURRY: We would like them produced forthwith.

MR. COOLEY: I object to that.

THE COURT: Well, I asked the other day for all tapes, videotapes, and so forth, to be produced regarding the Armstrong Operation.

MR. COOLEY: I understood the tapes were for the Court, not counsel. I was not required to produce, in the midst of my cross-examination, the tapes of the –

THE COURT: Now, how did we find this information?

MR. COOLEY: I have had Mr. Peterson check on the situation with the lawyer in Toronto.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson, where are the tapes?

MR. PETERSON: They are in Toronto.

MR. COOLEY: I’ll have them sent here.

THE COURT: Okay. Get them here.

MR. COOLEY: I’ll be happy to present them to the Court. But the point is, the other tapes did not get turned over to Counsel until the Court determined they were going into evidence.

THE COURT: And these are tapes of what?

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4688

MR.COOLEY: The Rinder meetings of November.

THE COURT: We are not going to have any testimony about this meeting until I hear those tapes.

MR. COOLEY: I don’t understand that ruling at all.

THE COURT: Well, just take it as a ruling. I was told that there were nonexistent tapes. Now we are getting –

MR. COOLEY: No. I didn’t say that about the Rinder meeting. I said there were no tapes –

THE COURT: No, wait a minute, Mr. Cooley. Just a second. Let me talk now. I asked about tapes regarding anything to do with the Armstrong Operation.

MR. COOLEY: I told the Court I was still checking the Toronto situation.

THE COURT: I’m not blaming you, Mr. Cooley.

MR. COOLEY: I had determined there was no tape of the hotel meeting, there was no tape of the lawyer’s meeting; that I had not completed my investigation of the existence of tapes, any other tapes with respect to Toronto. And I have now determined that there are tapes of the meeting with Rinder on November 19 and 30, and I’m telling the

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4689

Court that. I’m not concealing anything.

MR. McMURRY: May I be heard, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Absolutely.

MR. MCMURRY: This Court on Monday –

THE COURT: And don’t get angry.

MR. MCMURRY: I’m not. I certainly wouldn’t want to do that.

This Court, on Friday and again on Monday, ordered all writings, all reports, all wires, all recordings of any kind from any source, including the Toronto lawyer, Ingram, and anybody else, were to be furnished to this Court by Monday morning.

And there was colloquy: “That’s a big order, but we’ll do it.”

Now here we are on Thursday and low and behold Peterson finds — not Mr. Gutfeld, but Peterson — finds, yes, there’s a Toronto tape.

Now, he didn’t find it on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday. He finds it on Thursday. Now, I also suggest that the cross-examination that pinpoints the 19th and 30th of November must be in the form of some report, must be in the form of some memorandum.

THE COURT: Is this the meetings of –

MR. MCMURRY: — of good old Rinder meetings –

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4690

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. MCMURRY: — which have been referred to by Mr. Cooley as occurring on the 19th and 30th. There must be some evidence, unless the Toronto lawyer is in court and can shed some light on this sudden information, as to date, time and place.

There must be some evidence that, low and behold, Mr. Peterson might be able to enlighten us on. The contents and the times are clearly within the knowledge now of Mr. Cooley, and we can only suppose that source of information is Mr. Peterson, specially admitted as an officer of this court.

We would suggest, Your Honor, that the cross-examination on this setup be terminated. It’s obvious that the Court’s orders are not being complied with until it suits the purpose of the defendant, Church of Scientology of California, and that obviously evidence is being used from this setup to harass and intimidate this witness, and it’s an ongoing operation to this very day, to this very last hour.

MR. COOLEY: Your Honor, you may recall in Mr. Gutfeld’s testimony he said, “That is not within my ability,” at which time I announced to the Court –

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4691

THE COURT: I’m not blaming Mr. Gutfeld.

MR. COOLEY: Let me please finish. I stood up and I said, “I’m handling that aspect. I am continuing the investigation; I have not completed it yet. I will report to the Court when I do.” I have now reported to the Court. There is no concealment of any tapes here. Now, with respect to –

THE COURT: Do you want to know what bothers me?

MR. COOLEY: What, sir?

THE COURT: When I had Mr. Peterson stand up, and I said, “Are there any more tapes or documents or anything with reference” –

Don’t shake your head at me, Mr. Peterson.

Just get up here because you and I are going to have a little talk.

MR. PETERSON: Good.

THE COURT: And you said you didn’t have any.

MR. PETERSON: That’s correct.

THE COURT: You didn’t tell me they were in existence somewhere else.

MR. PETERSON: At that time, when I said it, I did not know. We have been trying to track down the tapes. We have been trying to track down, you

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4692

know, the Toronto attorney and his investigator. The investigator has been out of the state on some sort of investigation. When we get out of court here, it’s 5:00, 5:30 by the time we get back to the apartment, and it’s late at night in Toronto. We have been unable to locate Mr. Ruby. At the time I represented to the Court that I had nothing, I had nothing. And I still don’t have tapes. And I have no documentation regarding the Toronto tapes. As I had said, it was done by the Toronto attorney and a private investigator, not me, not the Church.1 Mr. Gutfeld was telling the truth when he didn’t even know of the existence of this taping, because it was not done through the Church and no one was told about it. That’s why we don’t have it.

THE COURT: Mr. Cooley somehow has information about it.

MR. COOLEY: I had information about the meetings that took place and I have access to Michael Rinder, Your Honor.

MR. PETERSON: Right.

MR. COOLEY: I assume the Court will give me some credit for doing some attorney work product here.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4693

THE COURT: No question about that.

MR. PETERSON: I believe the Court ordered we get the five boxes, and they are sitting over there. We have always endeavored to comply with the Court’s orders.

THE COURT: I sometimes feel that I am being used in this case, that I have been tolerant, I have listened to representations by all Counsel, I have accepted those. And then something comes along different. It never is anyone’s fault, and it’s never anyone’s responsibility. But somebody has to be responsible. Somebody has to be responsible for seeing that when a Court orders something, it’s done.

MR. PETERSON: When we started preparing the case, we had no idea of the scope of the testimony; for example, Mr. Armstrong, or any other witnesses. That’s why we didn’t have tapes down here, we didn’t have all the stuff here and available. Discovery has been ongoing since the beginning of trial, as evidenced by those boxes. Those are our entire files for the cross-examination of this witness sitting over there. I mean, it hasn’t helped us, these discovery orders, and we are doing our best to comply with the orders. As Mr. Cooley said, we had

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4694

no plans of playing the tape. We had enough trouble with this tape. Two more tapes would be — it just wasn’t in the plans. That’s why the stuff isn’t here, because we had no idea it would be needed.

MR. WADE: Your Honor, I share the Court’s concern and I realize Mr. McMurry and I are getting a little indignant. I mean, Mr. Peterson stood here the other day, and certainly maybe he didn’t say, “The tapes don’t exist anywhere and I don’t know about them,” but he certainly inferred there were no tapes. None whatsoever. And that’s all we have heard is those tapes were not in existence.

Mr. Gutfeld testified from the stand: nobody knows about those tapes. Mr. Armstrong testified about it, about people saying the tapes didn’t exist. That’s what they said; they said the tapes didn’t exist. I remember that statement: “They don’t exist.” And now they do exist. Now they want to cross-examine on the subject when they have tapes.

The first thing, they can’t cross-examine in that area until we get the tapes. The Court ordered the tapes be produced; they should be produced. And it is incredible to say, as Mr. Peterson has just said, “We didn’t think we needed those. We didn’t

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4695

think we needed to use those. You used the two tapes. You saw the problems we had with the two tapes. We didn’t think we would need these other tapes.”

Somebody in the Church certainly knew those tapes existed. And just because they didn’t want to use them or they didn’t want the testimony from those tapes, that’s why they weren’t here. That’s why they weren’t produced. It just doesn’t make any sense. This cat-and-mouse game doesn’t make any sense at all. An attorney or witness stands up and says things don’t exist, the tapes don’t exist, the program orders don’t exist, nothing exists, and then later on we find out they do exist. And I don’t think it’s anything less than misrepresentation.

MR. PETERSON: Your Honor, I stepped forward at the last hearing. I wasn’t on the stand. I volunteered that Mr. Wade or Mr. McMurry or the Court could ask me any questions regarding any documents or any tapes or anything. These two gentlemen had no questions, and I said, “Your Honor, I personally have no documents.” They were talking about documents at the time. I had no knowledge regarding those tapes until Mr. Cooley asked me, because he couldn’t get in touch with the Toronto

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4696

lawyer, if I would help him get in touch with the Toronto lawyer because he was in trial all day. And there’s been –

MR. COOLEY: Nonexistence, Your Honor. You may recall you asked me about whether there were tapes of the hotel meeting. I said there were no tapes that I knew about.

THE COURT: I tried to be as thorough in asking that question as I possibly could, because I don’t know of all the meetings. That’s why I made it as broad as I did.

MR. COOLEY: I specifically told the Court that I was still investigating the Toronto aspect of it to see whether there were any further conversations, tapes. I had satisfied myself that nowhere was there a tape of the meeting in the hotel room or a meeting in the lawyer’s office. I then said that I knew that Mr. Rinder had met on two occasions with the witness.

As a matter of fact, the first time I had met Rinder in any detail was when the witness spoke about it. I wasn’t familiar with the fact that they also had met at Griffith Park. I learned that; I spoke with Rinder; I had Mr. Peterson chase it down, and I now know there are two tapes. I don’t intend

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4697

to play them. Although from what I understand from Mr. Rinder, there is plenty of good stuff on there for me. The reason I don’t want to play it is that it has taken us a week to deal with the first two tapes, and that is enough time. Now I will present them to the Court and let the Court view them, and I will –

The COURT: Are these videotapes again?

MR. COOLEY: Yes.

THE COURT: Done under the same circumstances as the last?

MR. COOLEY: As I understand, under the same circumstances and the same investigator.

MR. WADE: Your Honor, it’s very strange to me that Mr. Cooley is able to obtain information that he says will show there are no tapes for the meeting in the hotel. Now, if this was the lawyer in Toronto, why didn’t he find out during that same conversation of the other tapes?

MR. COOLEY: The reason: I did not talk to the lawyer in Toronto. The thing was dealt with piecemeal. When the Court asked me — not the Court, but when I was asked by Mr. Armstrong, he said, “Well, you undoubtedly” — or he said to the

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4698

jury, “You undoubtedly have tapes. I went to the hotel room, I went to the lawyer, and you undoubtedly have tapes.”

Well, I didn’t know at that time I had tapes.

THE COURT: Your argument even going into this cross-examination regarding these meetings was you, just got through telling me, on the basis of bias. Now we are back to the original point we were with the other tapes.

MR. COOLEY: That was bias.

THE COURT: And I said at that time they have got to be coughed up so they can be at least heard by me first and then by Counsel to see whether or not, number one, they are, they do show bias; and secondly, whether they were in their proper context.

MR. COOLEY: That came in the context of me offering the tapes. I’m not offering them now.

THE COURT: But they are here and we know they exist. And I see no reason why Counsel on the other side shouldn’t know what’s on those tapes.

MR. COOLEY: That’s the first time the Court has made that ruling.

THE COURT: Because I think in this context I have been misled.

MR. COOLEY: I am very sorry, Your Honor,

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4699

because I did not deliberately mislead the Court. I’m sorry I pursued the matter, frankly.

THE COURT: Did you hear me say “deliberately”? I didn’t say deliberately, Mr. Cooley. I didn’t say deliberately. If I would have said deliberately, I also would have been calling for a sheriff.

MR. COOLEY: Well, then, I don’t know how I misled the Court.

THE COURT: Because you and Mr. Peterson have said, “That it,” at least led me to believe there are no — I asked, “Are there any more audio tapes?”

I remember my conversation. “Are there any other video tapes? Are there any audio tapes of this Armstrong Project that we are dealing with here?”

And I was led to believe by all the answers that there were none.

MR. COOLEY: I think if Your Honor reviews the transcript, you will see that is not the way it happened. I specifically left open the Toronto situation on anything dealing with –

THE COURT: When can they get here?

MR. COOLEY: When I go back for lunch, I’ll check on their location. I understand I could have them here no later than tomorrow morning.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4700

MR. McMURRY: Mr. Peterson is apparently the person that made the contact with Mr. Ruby in Toronto; certainly he should be able to give us the answer to that question, whether they are here or in Portland.

MR. PETERSON: Your Honor, it is just a matter of flight schedules. They can be put on a plane. I’m confident there are enough flights coming into Portland that they can be here by tomorrow. If not 9:30, by at least noon.

THE COURT: Well, they are going to have to get here.

MR. COOLEY: They will get here, Your Honor, and I will give them to the Court tomorrow.

THE COURT: They are going to be here immediately as soon as you can get them on the airplane and get them down here.

MR. COOLEY: We will deal with that when Mr. Peterson and I go back for lunch.

MR. McMURRY: The Court also ordered every other writing. The Court said, “This is inconceivable to me that there isn’t a paper trail.”

THE COURT: That’s what I said.

MR. McMURRY: Precisely. And the only thing that was excepted from your order was the writings,

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4701

the handwritings of Gerald Armstrong. Now, –

THE COURT: That was my order, Mr. McMurry.

MR. COOLEY: This is what I have been dealing with for two days.

MR. McMURRY: I submit that just from the beginning of this second attack through the Rinder meeting, and the specific language that is being used, that there is writings, and that they do exist, and that they are here in Portland and that they should be produced.

MR. COOLEY: That is not so. My information has come directly from Rinder and there are not writings to be produced and I’m not going to give him my work product under any circumstances.

THE COURT: Do I have to go through the litany again of what should be produced? I thought everybody by now should certainly understand it.

MR. COOLEY: There is no problem, Your Honor. These tapes, as I understand it, the last of the material to be produced.

THE COURT: I meant writings, documents, notes.

MR. COOLEY: I understand that.

THE COURT: Chalkboard material. Anything.

MR. COOLEY: I can tell you at this time I’m

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4702

not going to have transcripts made of those tapes. I’m deliberately going to avoid that. There would be no documents.

THE COURT: Anything at all regarding the Armstrong Project, as it’s been called here, has got to be coughed up.

MR. COOLEY: Everything is on that table or on the way from Toronto, I understand it, and that’s it.

MR. PETERSON: Is that supposed to be stuff that dealt with the Armstrong taping incidents? None of that stuff has anything to do with –

THE COURT: No. I understand Mr. Gutfeld saying that doesn’t have anything to do with the taping incident. Three boxes are claimed attorney/client privelege, two boxes may be discoverable matters or may or may not be. I haven’t the looked at them.

Now, –

MR. McMURRY: Would you please put the question to Mr. Peterson item by item, writings, handwritings, notes, reports, debriefing, project orders. Just item by item to Mr. Peterson, please.

THE COURT: Would you give me a — I don’t know that terminology you are talking about.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4703

MR. PETERSON: I don’t either.

MR. McMURRY: I hand the Court what I just dashed off. I hope it will be clear enough for Mr. Peterson.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Peterson. We are referring now to all documents, writings, memorandums, briefings, debriefings, evaluations, program orders, reports, all tape recordings, or electronic recordings, mechanical recordings, wire taps. Well, the third one I’m a little bit bothered by Mr. McMurry. I think that’s not a matter for this Court. I think it is a matter for a court.

MR. McMURRY: What other Court can make inquiry at this stage, Your Honor?

THE COURT: I think a California court is going to have to make an inquiry on this because I have no way of determining the authentication of police documents. We are back to that illegally seized evidence problem again.

MR. McMURRY: As the Court remembers, the Ingram exhibit, which is 876, had a date between November 7 and 14. The Rinder meetings, as we understand it now, occurred on the 19 and 30, if my notes are correct. So there must have been yet another authorization from Mr. Rodriguez or someone

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4704

like him.

THE COURT: Because I didn’t put much credence in that, if you remember correctly.

MR. McMURRY: That’s correct, Your Honor. But if there is the tape, as they now admit, the videotape, then –

THE COURT: Then Mr. Cooley would argue they had authority.

MR. McMURRY: That’s right. And –

THE COURT: Okay. Give me –

MR. PETERSON: If the Court didn’t put any credence in it, whether the –

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson, did I ask for argument?

MR. PETERSON: Well, usually the procedure has been each side got to answer a question.

THE COURT: I didn’t ask you a question. I’m only telling you what to come up with.

MR. PETERSON: What to look for.

THE COURT: And come up with.

MR. PETERSON: If it exists. Your Honor, I have not seen any of this stuff and I don’t want the Court to take the opinion that because Mr. McMurry writes it down, that it exists somewhere.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4705

THE COURT: I now know there our videotapes, I just found out a few moments ago of another meeting in Griffith park. Now, if there is such a meeting and if it was videotaped, in order for it to have any smattering of legality, there had to be some authorization by some governmental agency to issue it, as I read the California Penal Code and Mr. Cooley explained it to me.

MR. PETERSON: That’s part of it. There are two grounds that you can have a legally recorded conversation in California. One is police authorization, and there is another exception, too. But again, — there probably is a letter in existence.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. PETERSON: We have one, I’m sure there were two obtained. I don’t know.

THE COURT: Let’s have that.

MR. PETERSON: I will make inquiry.

THE COURT: Now, here you say — and I’m sure what you are referring to, Mr. McMurry, orders, Executive Directives, and amended orders or directives. What are we referring to? I want to make this very specific so there is no further misunderstanding as to discovery matters.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4706

MR. McMURRY: Yes, Your Honor. I make it generic because I don’t know what org it might be issued from. So I don’t refer to just RPF, RRF, ASI, Sea Org, OSA, all of these little acronyms for their various intelligence operations. I want all orders, all program orders, directing the undertaking of anything.

THE COURT: Relating to Mr. Armstrong?

MR. PETERSON: That’s a little broad.

MR. McMURRY: Relating to Mr. Armstrong and it goes on. It goes on.

THE COURT: Relating to Mr. Armstrong, his wife Jocelyn.

MR. McMURRY: Correct.

THE COURT: Mike Flynn.

MR. McMURRY: You recall in Exhibit 876, the Rodreguez also included Mike Flynn and others. I want to have all orders, all programs, all reports, whether they relate to Michael Flynn, Jocelyn A Armstrong, myself, plaintiff, anybody involved in this litigation as a witness or as a party or as a lawyer.

MR. COOLEY: I object to anything going beyond Armstrong and his wife. I have no problem with Armstrong and his wife. We are not going to

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4707

get involved in a wide sweeping discovery rematch now involving Michael Flynn.

THE COURT: Wait a minute. Mr. Cooley, as I understood the thrust of a lot of your questions of Mr. Armstrong, they dealt with Mike Flynn.

MR. COOLEY: That’s right. Your Honor, if we get into a discovery match now on the issue of Michael Flynn, this case is never going to get started again. It’s one thing to have it with respect to the witness, it’s quite another with respect to Michael Flynn.

THE COURT: I can settle that. Then we don’t ask any questions about Michael Flynn.

MR. COOLEY: I cannot believe what is happening here. I cannot believe it.

THE COURT: You want it all on your side.

MR. COOLEY: That isn’t so at all, Your Honor. That is simply not so. I have never been confronted with more stringent restrictions placed on cross-examination.

THE COURT: And I have never been confronted with evidence turning up on a daily basis that has been ordered by the Court on many occasions.

MR. COOLEY: Well, I am prepared to rest on the record as it stands and I have daily copy.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4708

THE COURT: You are not the only one that that has daily copy, Mr. Cooley.

MR. COOLEY: I will show you the daily copy. Your Honor is really accusing me of something that is really unjust.

THE COURT: I told you when start accusing you, Mr. Cooley, that I will have a sheriff down here to accompany –

MR. COOLEY: That will be fine. Then I would defend myself in an appropriate form. I have been threatened in this case with all manner of things. I have had restrictions placed on cross-examination, Mr. McMurry is allowed to attack opposing Counsel at will. The Court allows these witnesses who are attacking the Church to absolutely say anything they want on the witness stand. And then discovery gets conducted in the middle of my cross-examination, and now Mr. McMurry has the nerve to ask, in the middle of this cross-examination, that everything in the Church’s files with respect to Michael Flynn be produced, and the Court says if I don’t do it, I’m not going to be allowed to ask questions on it. That, Your Honor, is absolutely improper in my opinion, requesting things like that.

THE COURT: One more time you raise your

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4709

voice to me, Mr. Cooley — Let this record indicate right now, this is the second warning I have given Mr. Cooley in two days regarding his attitude toward this Court. I am now prepared to take under advisement a matter of sanctions against Mr. Cooley.

MR. COOLEY: I object to the attitude that the Court manifests toward me. I think it’s unfair, I think it manifests bias, and I think it manifests prejudice.

THE COURT: Fine. You may think whatever you will. I’m stating that for the record right now, Mr. Cooley. You’d better — number one, you take things the Court says out of context, you twist them around and state them in a manner which is not what the Court says. Nobody has yet ordered Michael Flynn documents to be produced. Nobody has ordered you to do anything, yet. Instead of that, you conduct this harangue against the Court, which is highly inappropriate, which is not done by any lawyer that I’m aware of in the state of Oregon nor do I know any Court which will accept it.

Now, I don’t understand the breath of Mike Flynn or Mr. McMurry documents.

MR. McMURRY: Yes, Your Honor. If the Court would look at Exhibit 876, a so-called authorization

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4710

issued by Philip Rodriguez unto Mr. Eugene Ingram, the Court will note that the authorization allowing illegal wire taping and eavesdropping included –

THE COURT: Incidentally, I might say something else. And I don’t — I don’t know whether it’s going on or not, but everybody should be aware that there is to be no recording done in the courtroom with the exception of Court recordings. I failed to make that announcement earlier and I hope everybody understands that.

I don’t know whether it is, I’m just making announcement that says under our court rules, it is not done. Okay.

MR. McMURRY: The Court will note on Exhibit 876 that the so-called authorization included the wiretapping or eavesdropping of Mr. Gerald Armstrong and attorney Michael J. Flynn and others for possible violation or attempts to violate certain laws and any other law. Now, I think with the revelations that keep coming out, that we should determine — Mr. Flynn’s name has been utilized time and again by defense counsel as if — and he has stated in open court, a criminal conspiracy exists somehow, and I have challenged him to exculpate that off the record as to whether he would include myself

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4711

or my law firm. I want to know what additional wiretapping, eavesdropping or recording occurred with Michael Flynn, and I would like to know what recording has occurred, if any, with me. And I would like it put to Mr. Peterson, who professes to be Counsel for the Church of Scientology, who apparently has more access to documents than Mr. Gutfeld or Mr. Cooley. I would like those questions put.

THE COURT: The proposition as to Michael Flynn I could almost answer myself. The problem with that is, they could be so voluminous as far as orders and directives and so forth that — and I’m only guessing –

MR. McMURRY: I’m speaking of the wiretaps, Your Honor, and transcripts.

THE COURT: Strictly wire taps?

MR. McMURRY: That’s right. Because that’s how his name comes up in the context of Exhibit 876.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson, do you understand his question?

MR. PETERSON: Yes. Is this started? I thought we were talking with reference to the Rodriguez letter and the Toronto — you know, taping project, whatever it was, of Mr. Armstrong. That’s

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4712

the context that I viewing this in.

THE COURT: Yes, that’s where we are. That’s where we started. We started with that. He points out that this authorization, by officer Rodriguez, which I have noted before is not even on official stationary, says that this authorization shall specifically pertain to the investigation of Gerry Armstrong, Michael J. Flynn and others not known at this time.

And I guess your question, Mr. McMurry, is you want to know what else came within the purview of this alleged authorization.

MR. McMURRY: Precisely. Now, that’s on point three, the on that I referred to. With respect to Armstrong and his wife, we want every report.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson understands that.

MR. McMURRY: With respect to the eavesdropping and transcripts of any form, I don’t care whether it’s mechanical, electronic, video, wire, whatever method this guy Ingram uses, we want it.

MR. PETERSON: On who?

MR. McMURRY: On me, on Mr. Wade, on Julie Christofferson Titchbourne, on Mike Flynn, and on

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4713

Gerry Armstrong and his wife Jocelyn.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson, can you shed any information for me on this?

MR. PETERSON: You mean whether they exist? Well, like I have — on several occasions stated, this so-called Armstrong project was not commenced the by the Church, but –

THE COURT: I understand by Toronto.

MR. PETERSON: — and a private investigator, Mr. Ingram.

THE COURT: I understand.

MR. PETERSON: I will make inquiries to see if any of these things exist as to the people Mr. McMurry has enumerated or listed out for me. Frankly, I don’t think so, but I will make the proper –

THE COURT: Will you report back to me on that as quickly as possible.

MR. PETERSON: I can check on that when we make the arrangements to get the two tapes –

THE COURT: That would be satisfactory. And give me the information. I’m not ruling on any of that. I have only ruled so far on Armstrong and his wife, Joscelyn. Do you understand that?

MR. PETERSON: Oh, yeah.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4714

THE COURT: That, you understand?

MR. PETERSON: Clearly.

THE COURT: I’m withholding Flynn, McMurry, and et al, yet until you give me some information.

MR. PETERSON: That’s fine.

THE COURT: Do you understand that? I hate to keep saying, “Do you understand that,” with every every question, but I think I’m getting into that area where I’ve get to on the record “do you understand what I’m saying.”

MR. PETERSON: And I want the Court and everyone that I understand and I’m going to do my best to comply, as I have always done.

Now the other stuff, Your Honor, I think we have complied with all that in the previous discovery and this ongoing discovery. As I listen to the things, I would like a copy of that list that — you know, I think we have complied, but again –

THE COURT: You mean Mr. McMurry’s list?

MR. PETERSON: All these EDs and program orders and all that other stuff. And that I’m not so sure I understand. Maybe if I could –

THE COURT: Well, let’s get an understanding before we recess.

MR. PETERSON: His last paragraph relating to

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4715

Gerry Armstrong, that’s fine, his wife, Jocelyn, although her name hasn’t been mentioned in this case, I don’t think. But Mike Flynn, all these other people, all these policies and orders? It would be probably another hundred thousand –

THE COURT: No, no, no. I think I can clarify that. I thought you understood that. That only refers to this authorization for video taping and taping. Those other items do not refer to all those people.

MR. PETERSON: Executive directives, amended orders, directives –

THE COURT: Those are for Mr. Armstrong.

MR. PETERSON: I see.

THE COURT: Now, do you understand?

MR. PETERSON: Now, it appears to be clear.

THE COURT: Okay. We will recess for lunch until 1:30.

Mr. Runstein, I think I have to talk to you.

(Court recessed at 11:58 a.m., and reconvened at 1:33 p.m.)

THE COURT: Good afternoon.

MR. COOLEY: Good afternoon, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson was going to give me a quick rundown, I think.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4716

MR. COOLEY: I know Mr. Peterson made the call and the man was in court. The secretary said he had left for court.

THE COURT: Maybe he is still working on that problem.

Now, before we hear from Mr. Peterson — and I’m hesitant about the cross-examination regarding the park incident — do you have another area you can proceed to until Mr. Peterson reports back?

MR. COOLEY: Yes, I can.

THE COURT: Very good.

Mr. Armstrong, would you come up to the stand, please.

(Witness resumed the witness stand.)

THE COURT: I have taken under consideration those matters I have discussed this morning. I’m not going to take any sanctions against Mr. Cooley. Mr. Cooley, are you paying attention? At this time I’m not taking any sanctions against Mr. Cooley. Mr. Cooley’s actions were not deliberate, I am convinced. And whatever comments he made toward the Court, I feel, were in the heat of his representation of his client.

MR. COOLEY: It’s a long, tough case, Your Honor.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4717

THE COURT: Do I take that to mean you agree?

MR. COOLEY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Let’s get the jury.

Wait. Here’s Mr: Peterson.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson, any news for me?

MR. PETERSON: I put a call in to Toronto. The attorney was not in his office. He was expected back at the end of the day. And I said I would call back, and left my name and number. But I’m still confident that I can get in touch with him either later this afternoon or this evening and the tapes will be here. I don’t foresee a problem.

THE COURT: Okay. And you are working on the other aspects?

MR. PETERSON: As soon as I can get through to him, I can ask about the other items.

THE COURT: Including all the questions we had. Some were relative to Mr. Armstrong; some were relative to other videotapes which may or may not be in existence.

MR. PETERSON: Right.

THE COURT: Communication, okay? We understand each other?

MR. PETERSON: We understand each other.

THE COURT: Okay.

  1. The PI was Eugene Ingram, hired by Mark Rathbun, according to Memoirs. ↩

Filed Under: Legal Tagged With: Christofferson v. Scientology, Clayton C. Ruby, Earle C. Cooley, Eugene M. Ingram, Gerry Armstrong, John G. Peterson, Loyalist Program, Michael J. Flynn, Michael J. Rinder, Philip A. Rodriguez

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