Christofferson: Excerpt of Proceedings (April 12,15, 1985)

Christofferson: Excerpt of Proceedings (April 11, 1985)



CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY, MISSION OF DAVIS, a non-profit California corporation, doing business in Oregon; CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA, a California corporation, doing business in Oregon; and L. RON HUBBARD,
No. A7704-05184


Volume IX
Pages 4640 to 4835
Testimony of Gerald D. Armstrong

April 11, 1985

Court Reporters
1001 S. W. Fifth Ave.
Portland, Oregon

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THE COURT: Well, I said yesterday afternoon and I am going to watch this fairly closely the rest of this day, we are not here to build a case for whatever cases are going on around the country. I’ll address this to the gentlemen in the audience. I’m trying the Christofferson case.

MR. COOLEY: Two days we gave him discovery in the California case.

THE COURT: Well, I don’t know where the lawyers present are from or what cases and I don’t really care. That’s their job. It’s that we are trying the issues in this case, as I see them, and I’m going to try to limit it to that.

MR. COOLEY: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: We’ll take a few minutes.

(Court recessed at 10:57 a.m. and reconvened at 11:17 a.m.)

MR. COOLEY: Before we bring in the jury, Your Honor, you remember, I told the Court I would continue my examination. I told the Court I was continuing to check on whether there were additional tapes, and I am now informed there are tapes of meetings with Mike Rinder on November 19 and November 30, 1984. I have no intention of using them, but I want to inform the Court that they do

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MR. McMURRY: We would like them produced forthwith.

MR. COOLEY: I object to that.

THE COURT: Well, I asked the other day for all tapes, videotapes, and so forth, to be produced regarding the Armstrong Operation.

MR. COOLEY: I understood the tapes were for the Court, not counsel. I was not required to produce, in the midst of my cross-examination, the tapes of the –

THE COURT: Now, how did we find this information?

MR. COOLEY: I have had Mr. Peterson check on the situation with the lawyer in Toronto.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson, where are the tapes?

MR. PETERSON: They are in Toronto.

MR. COOLEY: I’ll have them sent here.

THE COURT: Okay. Get them here.

MR. COOLEY: I’ll be happy to present them to the Court. But the point is, the other tapes did not get turned over to Counsel until the Court determined they were going into evidence.

THE COURT: And these are tapes of what?

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MR.COOLEY: The Rinder meetings of November.

THE COURT: We are not going to have any testimony about this meeting until I hear those tapes.

MR. COOLEY: I don’t understand that ruling at all.

THE COURT: Well, just take it as a ruling. I was told that there were nonexistent tapes. Now we are getting –

MR. COOLEY: No. I didn’t say that about the Rinder meeting. I said there were no tapes –

THE COURT: No, wait a minute, Mr. Cooley. Just a second. Let me talk now. I asked about tapes regarding anything to do with the Armstrong Operation.

MR. COOLEY: I told the Court I was still checking the Toronto situation.

THE COURT: I’m not blaming you, Mr. Cooley.

MR. COOLEY: I had determined there was no tape of the hotel meeting, there was no tape of the lawyer’s meeting; that I had not completed my investigation of the existence of tapes, any other tapes with respect to Toronto. And I have now determined that there are tapes of the meeting with Rinder on November 19 and 30, and I’m telling the

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Court that. I’m not concealing anything.

MR. McMURRY: May I be heard, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Absolutely.

MR. MCMURRY: This Court on Monday –

THE COURT: And don’t get angry.

MR. MCMURRY: I’m not. I certainly wouldn’t want to do that.

This Court, on Friday and again on Monday, ordered all writings, all reports, all wires, all recordings of any kind from any source, including the Toronto lawyer, Ingram, and anybody else, were to be furnished to this Court by Monday morning.

And there was colloquy: “That’s a big order, but we’ll do it.”

Now here we are on Thursday and low and behold Peterson finds — not Mr. Gutfeld, but Peterson — finds, yes, there’s a Toronto tape.

Now, he didn’t find it on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday. He finds it on Thursday. Now, I also suggest that the cross-examination that pinpoints the 19th and 30th of November must be in the form of some report, must be in the form of some memorandum.

THE COURT: Is this the meetings of –

MR. MCMURRY: — of good old Rinder meetings –

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MR. MCMURRY: — which have been referred to by Mr. Cooley as occurring on the 19th and 30th. There must be some evidence, unless the Toronto lawyer is in court and can shed some light on this sudden information, as to date, time and place.

There must be some evidence that, low and behold, Mr. Peterson might be able to enlighten us on. The contents and the times are clearly within the knowledge now of Mr. Cooley, and we can only suppose that source of information is Mr. Peterson, specially admitted as an officer of this court.

We would suggest, Your Honor, that the cross-examination on this setup be terminated. It’s obvious that the Court’s orders are not being complied with until it suits the purpose of the defendant, Church of Scientology of California, and that obviously evidence is being used from this setup to harass and intimidate this witness, and it’s an ongoing operation to this very day, to this very last hour.

MR. COOLEY: Your Honor, you may recall in Mr. Gutfeld’s testimony he said, “That is not within my ability,” at which time I announced to the Court –

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THE COURT: I’m not blaming Mr. Gutfeld.

MR. COOLEY: Let me please finish. I stood up and I said, “I’m handling that aspect. I am continuing the investigation; I have not completed it yet. I will report to the Court when I do.” I have now reported to the Court. There is no concealment of any tapes here. Now, with respect to –

THE COURT: Do you want to know what bothers me?

MR. COOLEY: What, sir?

THE COURT: When I had Mr. Peterson stand up, and I said, “Are there any more tapes or documents or anything with reference” –

Don’t shake your head at me, Mr. Peterson.

Just get up here because you and I are going to have a little talk.


THE COURT: And you said you didn’t have any.

MR. PETERSON: That’s correct.

THE COURT: You didn’t tell me they were in existence somewhere else.

MR. PETERSON: At that time, when I said it, I did not know. We have been trying to track down the tapes. We have been trying to track down, you

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know, the Toronto attorney and his investigator. The investigator has been out of the state on some sort of investigation. When we get out of court here, it’s 5:00, 5:30 by the time we get back to the apartment, and it’s late at night in Toronto. We have been unable to locate Mr. Ruby. At the time I represented to the Court that I had nothing, I had nothing. And I still don’t have tapes. And I have no documentation regarding the Toronto tapes. As I had said, it was done by the Toronto attorney and a private investigator, not me, not the Church.1 Mr. Gutfeld was telling the truth when he didn’t even know of the existence of this taping, because it was not done through the Church and no one was told about it. That’s why we don’t have it.

THE COURT: Mr. Cooley somehow has information about it.

MR. COOLEY: I had information about the meetings that took place and I have access to Michael Rinder, Your Honor.


MR. COOLEY: I assume the Court will give me some credit for doing some attorney work product here.

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THE COURT: No question about that.

MR. PETERSON: I believe the Court ordered we get the five boxes, and they are sitting over there. We have always endeavored to comply with the Court’s orders.

THE COURT: I sometimes feel that I am being used in this case, that I have been tolerant, I have listened to representations by all Counsel, I have accepted those. And then something comes along different. It never is anyone’s fault, and it’s never anyone’s responsibility. But somebody has to be responsible. Somebody has to be responsible for seeing that when a Court orders something, it’s done.

MR. PETERSON: When we started preparing the case, we had no idea of the scope of the testimony; for example, Mr. Armstrong, or any other witnesses. That’s why we didn’t have tapes down here, we didn’t have all the stuff here and available. Discovery has been ongoing since the beginning of trial, as evidenced by those boxes. Those are our entire files for the cross-examination of this witness sitting over there. I mean, it hasn’t helped us, these discovery orders, and we are doing our best to comply with the orders. As Mr. Cooley said, we had

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no plans of playing the tape. We had enough trouble with this tape. Two more tapes would be — it just wasn’t in the plans. That’s why the stuff isn’t here, because we had no idea it would be needed.

MR. WADE: Your Honor, I share the Court’s concern and I realize Mr. McMurry and I are getting a little indignant. I mean, Mr. Peterson stood here the other day, and certainly maybe he didn’t say, “The tapes don’t exist anywhere and I don’t know about them,” but he certainly inferred there were no tapes. None whatsoever. And that’s all we have heard is those tapes were not in existence.

Mr. Gutfeld testified from the stand: nobody knows about those tapes. Mr. Armstrong testified about it, about people saying the tapes didn’t exist. That’s what they said; they said the tapes didn’t exist. I remember that statement: “They don’t exist.” And now they do exist. Now they want to cross-examine on the subject when they have tapes.

The first thing, they can’t cross-examine in that area until we get the tapes. The Court ordered the tapes be produced; they should be produced. And it is incredible to say, as Mr. Peterson has just said, “We didn’t think we needed those. We didn’t

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think we needed to use those. You used the two tapes. You saw the problems we had with the two tapes. We didn’t think we would need these other tapes.”

Somebody in the Church certainly knew those tapes existed. And just because they didn’t want to use them or they didn’t want the testimony from those tapes, that’s why they weren’t here. That’s why they weren’t produced. It just doesn’t make any sense. This cat-and-mouse game doesn’t make any sense at all. An attorney or witness stands up and says things don’t exist, the tapes don’t exist, the program orders don’t exist, nothing exists, and then later on we find out they do exist. And I don’t think it’s anything less than misrepresentation.

MR. PETERSON: Your Honor, I stepped forward at the last hearing. I wasn’t on the stand. I volunteered that Mr. Wade or Mr. McMurry or the Court could ask me any questions regarding any documents or any tapes or anything. These two gentlemen had no questions, and I said, “Your Honor, I personally have no documents.” They were talking about documents at the time. I had no knowledge regarding those tapes until Mr. Cooley asked me, because he couldn’t get in touch with the Toronto

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lawyer, if I would help him get in touch with the Toronto lawyer because he was in trial all day. And there’s been –

MR. COOLEY: Nonexistence, Your Honor. You may recall you asked me about whether there were tapes of the hotel meeting. I said there were no tapes that I knew about.

THE COURT: I tried to be as thorough in asking that question as I possibly could, because I don’t know of all the meetings. That’s why I made it as broad as I did.

MR. COOLEY: I specifically told the Court that I was still investigating the Toronto aspect of it to see whether there were any further conversations, tapes. I had satisfied myself that nowhere was there a tape of the meeting in the hotel room or a meeting in the lawyer’s office. I then said that I knew that Mr. Rinder had met on two occasions with the witness.

As a matter of fact, the first time I had met Rinder in any detail was when the witness spoke about it. I wasn’t familiar with the fact that they also had met at Griffith Park. I learned that; I spoke with Rinder; I had Mr. Peterson chase it down, and I now know there are two tapes. I don’t intend

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to play them. Although from what I understand from Mr. Rinder, there is plenty of good stuff on there for me. The reason I don’t want to play it is that it has taken us a week to deal with the first two tapes, and that is enough time. Now I will present them to the Court and let the Court view them, and I will –

The COURT: Are these videotapes again?


THE COURT: Done under the same circumstances as the last?

MR. COOLEY: As I understand, under the same circumstances and the same investigator.

MR. WADE: Your Honor, it’s very strange to me that Mr. Cooley is able to obtain information that he says will show there are no tapes for the meeting in the hotel. Now, if this was the lawyer in Toronto, why didn’t he find out during that same conversation of the other tapes?

MR. COOLEY: The reason: I did not talk to the lawyer in Toronto. The thing was dealt with piecemeal. When the Court asked me — not the Court, but when I was asked by Mr. Armstrong, he said, “Well, you undoubtedly” — or he said to the

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jury, “You undoubtedly have tapes. I went to the hotel room, I went to the lawyer, and you undoubtedly have tapes.”

Well, I didn’t know at that time I had tapes.

THE COURT: Your argument even going into this cross-examination regarding these meetings was you, just got through telling me, on the basis of bias. Now we are back to the original point we were with the other tapes.

MR. COOLEY: That was bias.

THE COURT: And I said at that time they have got to be coughed up so they can be at least heard by me first and then by Counsel to see whether or not, number one, they are, they do show bias; and secondly, whether they were in their proper context.

MR. COOLEY: That came in the context of me offering the tapes. I’m not offering them now.

THE COURT: But they are here and we know they exist. And I see no reason why Counsel on the other side shouldn’t know what’s on those tapes.

MR. COOLEY: That’s the first time the Court has made that ruling.

THE COURT: Because I think in this context I have been misled.

MR. COOLEY: I am very sorry, Your Honor,

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because I did not deliberately mislead the Court. I’m sorry I pursued the matter, frankly.

THE COURT: Did you hear me say “deliberately”? I didn’t say deliberately, Mr. Cooley. I didn’t say deliberately. If I would have said deliberately, I also would have been calling for a sheriff.

MR. COOLEY: Well, then, I don’t know how I misled the Court.

THE COURT: Because you and Mr. Peterson have said, “That it,” at least led me to believe there are no — I asked, “Are there any more audio tapes?”

I remember my conversation. “Are there any other video tapes? Are there any audio tapes of this Armstrong Project that we are dealing with here?”

And I was led to believe by all the answers that there were none.

MR. COOLEY: I think if Your Honor reviews the transcript, you will see that is not the way it happened. I specifically left open the Toronto situation on anything dealing with –

THE COURT: When can they get here?

MR. COOLEY: When I go back for lunch, I’ll check on their location. I understand I could have them here no later than tomorrow morning.

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MR. McMURRY: Mr. Peterson is apparently the person that made the contact with Mr. Ruby in Toronto; certainly he should be able to give us the answer to that question, whether they are here or in Portland.

MR. PETERSON: Your Honor, it is just a matter of flight schedules. They can be put on a plane. I’m confident there are enough flights coming into Portland that they can be here by tomorrow. If not 9:30, by at least noon.

THE COURT: Well, they are going to have to get here.

MR. COOLEY: They will get here, Your Honor, and I will give them to the Court tomorrow.

THE COURT: They are going to be here immediately as soon as you can get them on the airplane and get them down here.

MR. COOLEY: We will deal with that when Mr. Peterson and I go back for lunch.

MR. McMURRY: The Court also ordered every other writing. The Court said, “This is inconceivable to me that there isn’t a paper trail.”

THE COURT: That’s what I said.

MR. McMURRY: Precisely. And the only thing that was excepted from your order was the writings,

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4701

the handwritings of Gerald Armstrong. Now, –

THE COURT: That was my order, Mr. McMurry.

MR. COOLEY: This is what I have been dealing with for two days.

MR. McMURRY: I submit that just from the beginning of this second attack through the Rinder meeting, and the specific language that is being used, that there is writings, and that they do exist, and that they are here in Portland and that they should be produced.

MR. COOLEY: That is not so. My information has come directly from Rinder and there are not writings to be produced and I’m not going to give him my work product under any circumstances.

THE COURT: Do I have to go through the litany again of what should be produced? I thought everybody by now should certainly understand it.

MR. COOLEY: There is no problem, Your Honor. These tapes, as I understand it, the last of the material to be produced.

THE COURT: I meant writings, documents, notes.

MR. COOLEY: I understand that.

THE COURT: Chalkboard material. Anything.

MR. COOLEY: I can tell you at this time I’m

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not going to have transcripts made of those tapes. I’m deliberately going to avoid that. There would be no documents.

THE COURT: Anything at all regarding the Armstrong Project, as it’s been called here, has got to be coughed up.

MR. COOLEY: Everything is on that table or on the way from Toronto, I understand it, and that’s it.

MR. PETERSON: Is that supposed to be stuff that dealt with the Armstrong taping incidents? None of that stuff has anything to do with –

THE COURT: No. I understand Mr. Gutfeld saying that doesn’t have anything to do with the taping incident. Three boxes are claimed attorney/client privelege, two boxes may be discoverable matters or may or may not be. I haven’t the looked at them.

Now, –

MR. McMURRY: Would you please put the question to Mr. Peterson item by item, writings, handwritings, notes, reports, debriefing, project orders. Just item by item to Mr. Peterson, please.

THE COURT: Would you give me a — I don’t know that terminology you are talking about.

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MR. PETERSON: I don’t either.

MR. McMURRY: I hand the Court what I just dashed off. I hope it will be clear enough for Mr. Peterson.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Peterson. We are referring now to all documents, writings, memorandums, briefings, debriefings, evaluations, program orders, reports, all tape recordings, or electronic recordings, mechanical recordings, wire taps. Well, the third one I’m a little bit bothered by Mr. McMurry. I think that’s not a matter for this Court. I think it is a matter for a court.

MR. McMURRY: What other Court can make inquiry at this stage, Your Honor?

THE COURT: I think a California court is going to have to make an inquiry on this because I have no way of determining the authentication of police documents. We are back to that illegally seized evidence problem again.

MR. McMURRY: As the Court remembers, the Ingram exhibit, which is 876, had a date between November 7 and 14. The Rinder meetings, as we understand it now, occurred on the 19 and 30, if my notes are correct. So there must have been yet another authorization from Mr. Rodriguez or someone

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like him.

THE COURT: Because I didn’t put much credence in that, if you remember correctly.

MR. McMURRY: That’s correct, Your Honor. But if there is the tape, as they now admit, the videotape, then –

THE COURT: Then Mr. Cooley would argue they had authority.

MR. McMURRY: That’s right. And –

THE COURT: Okay. Give me –

MR. PETERSON: If the Court didn’t put any credence in it, whether the –

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson, did I ask for argument?

MR. PETERSON: Well, usually the procedure has been each side got to answer a question.

THE COURT: I didn’t ask you a question. I’m only telling you what to come up with.

MR. PETERSON: What to look for.

THE COURT: And come up with.

MR. PETERSON: If it exists. Your Honor, I have not seen any of this stuff and I don’t want the Court to take the opinion that because Mr. McMurry writes it down, that it exists somewhere.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4705

THE COURT: I now know there our videotapes, I just found out a few moments ago of another meeting in Griffith park. Now, if there is such a meeting and if it was videotaped, in order for it to have any smattering of legality, there had to be some authorization by some governmental agency to issue it, as I read the California Penal Code and Mr. Cooley explained it to me.

MR. PETERSON: That’s part of it. There are two grounds that you can have a legally recorded conversation in California. One is police authorization, and there is another exception, too. But again, — there probably is a letter in existence.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. PETERSON: We have one, I’m sure there were two obtained. I don’t know.

THE COURT: Let’s have that.

MR. PETERSON: I will make inquiry.

THE COURT: Now, here you say — and I’m sure what you are referring to, Mr. McMurry, orders, Executive Directives, and amended orders or directives. What are we referring to? I want to make this very specific so there is no further misunderstanding as to discovery matters.

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MR. McMURRY: Yes, Your Honor. I make it generic because I don’t know what org it might be issued from. So I don’t refer to just RPF, RRF, ASI, Sea Org, OSA, all of these little acronyms for their various intelligence operations. I want all orders, all program orders, directing the undertaking of anything.

THE COURT: Relating to Mr. Armstrong?

MR. PETERSON: That’s a little broad.

MR. McMURRY: Relating to Mr. Armstrong and it goes on. It goes on.

THE COURT: Relating to Mr. Armstrong, his wife Jocelyn.

MR. McMURRY: Correct.

THE COURT: Mike Flynn.

MR. McMURRY: You recall in Exhibit 876, the Rodreguez also included Mike Flynn and others. I want to have all orders, all programs, all reports, whether they relate to Michael Flynn, Jocelyn A Armstrong, myself, plaintiff, anybody involved in this litigation as a witness or as a party or as a lawyer.

MR. COOLEY: I object to anything going beyond Armstrong and his wife. I have no problem with Armstrong and his wife. We are not going to

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get involved in a wide sweeping discovery rematch now involving Michael Flynn.

THE COURT: Wait a minute. Mr. Cooley, as I understood the thrust of a lot of your questions of Mr. Armstrong, they dealt with Mike Flynn.

MR. COOLEY: That’s right. Your Honor, if we get into a discovery match now on the issue of Michael Flynn, this case is never going to get started again. It’s one thing to have it with respect to the witness, it’s quite another with respect to Michael Flynn.

THE COURT: I can settle that. Then we don’t ask any questions about Michael Flynn.

MR. COOLEY: I cannot believe what is happening here. I cannot believe it.

THE COURT: You want it all on your side.

MR. COOLEY: That isn’t so at all, Your Honor. That is simply not so. I have never been confronted with more stringent restrictions placed on cross-examination.

THE COURT: And I have never been confronted with evidence turning up on a daily basis that has been ordered by the Court on many occasions.

MR. COOLEY: Well, I am prepared to rest on the record as it stands and I have daily copy.

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THE COURT: You are not the only one that that has daily copy, Mr. Cooley.

MR. COOLEY: I will show you the daily copy. Your Honor is really accusing me of something that is really unjust.

THE COURT: I told you when start accusing you, Mr. Cooley, that I will have a sheriff down here to accompany –

MR. COOLEY: That will be fine. Then I would defend myself in an appropriate form. I have been threatened in this case with all manner of things. I have had restrictions placed on cross-examination, Mr. McMurry is allowed to attack opposing Counsel at will. The Court allows these witnesses who are attacking the Church to absolutely say anything they want on the witness stand. And then discovery gets conducted in the middle of my cross-examination, and now Mr. McMurry has the nerve to ask, in the middle of this cross-examination, that everything in the Church’s files with respect to Michael Flynn be produced, and the Court says if I don’t do it, I’m not going to be allowed to ask questions on it. That, Your Honor, is absolutely improper in my opinion, requesting things like that.

THE COURT: One more time you raise your

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voice to me, Mr. Cooley — Let this record indicate right now, this is the second warning I have given Mr. Cooley in two days regarding his attitude toward this Court. I am now prepared to take under advisement a matter of sanctions against Mr. Cooley.

MR. COOLEY: I object to the attitude that the Court manifests toward me. I think it’s unfair, I think it manifests bias, and I think it manifests prejudice.

THE COURT: Fine. You may think whatever you will. I’m stating that for the record right now, Mr. Cooley. You’d better — number one, you take things the Court says out of context, you twist them around and state them in a manner which is not what the Court says. Nobody has yet ordered Michael Flynn documents to be produced. Nobody has ordered you to do anything, yet. Instead of that, you conduct this harangue against the Court, which is highly inappropriate, which is not done by any lawyer that I’m aware of in the state of Oregon nor do I know any Court which will accept it.

Now, I don’t understand the breath of Mike Flynn or Mr. McMurry documents.

MR. McMURRY: Yes, Your Honor. If the Court would look at Exhibit 876, a so-called authorization

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issued by Philip Rodriguez unto Mr. Eugene Ingram, the Court will note that the authorization allowing illegal wire taping and eavesdropping included –

THE COURT: Incidentally, I might say something else. And I don’t — I don’t know whether it’s going on or not, but everybody should be aware that there is to be no recording done in the courtroom with the exception of Court recordings. I failed to make that announcement earlier and I hope everybody understands that.

I don’t know whether it is, I’m just making announcement that says under our court rules, it is not done. Okay.

MR. McMURRY: The Court will note on Exhibit 876 that the so-called authorization included the wiretapping or eavesdropping of Mr. Gerald Armstrong and attorney Michael J. Flynn and others for possible violation or attempts to violate certain laws and any other law. Now, I think with the revelations that keep coming out, that we should determine — Mr. Flynn’s name has been utilized time and again by defense counsel as if — and he has stated in open court, a criminal conspiracy exists somehow, and I have challenged him to exculpate that off the record as to whether he would include myself

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or my law firm. I want to know what additional wiretapping, eavesdropping or recording occurred with Michael Flynn, and I would like to know what recording has occurred, if any, with me. And I would like it put to Mr. Peterson, who professes to be Counsel for the Church of Scientology, who apparently has more access to documents than Mr. Gutfeld or Mr. Cooley. I would like those questions put.

THE COURT: The proposition as to Michael Flynn I could almost answer myself. The problem with that is, they could be so voluminous as far as orders and directives and so forth that — and I’m only guessing –

MR. McMURRY: I’m speaking of the wiretaps, Your Honor, and transcripts.

THE COURT: Strictly wire taps?

MR. McMURRY: That’s right. Because that’s how his name comes up in the context of Exhibit 876.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson, do you understand his question?

MR. PETERSON: Yes. Is this started? I thought we were talking with reference to the Rodriguez letter and the Toronto — you know, taping project, whatever it was, of Mr. Armstrong. That’s

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the context that I viewing this in.

THE COURT: Yes, that’s where we are. That’s where we started. We started with that. He points out that this authorization, by officer Rodriguez, which I have noted before is not even on official stationary, says that this authorization shall specifically pertain to the investigation of Gerry Armstrong, Michael J. Flynn and others not known at this time.

And I guess your question, Mr. McMurry, is you want to know what else came within the purview of this alleged authorization.

MR. McMURRY: Precisely. Now, that’s on point three, the on that I referred to. With respect to Armstrong and his wife, we want every report.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson understands that.

MR. McMURRY: With respect to the eavesdropping and transcripts of any form, I don’t care whether it’s mechanical, electronic, video, wire, whatever method this guy Ingram uses, we want it.


MR. McMURRY: On me, on Mr. Wade, on Julie Christofferson Titchbourne, on Mike Flynn, and on

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Gerry Armstrong and his wife Jocelyn.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson, can you shed any information for me on this?

MR. PETERSON: You mean whether they exist? Well, like I have — on several occasions stated, this so-called Armstrong project was not commenced the by the Church, but –

THE COURT: I understand by Toronto.

MR. PETERSON: — and a private investigator, Mr. Ingram.

THE COURT: I understand.

MR. PETERSON: I will make inquiries to see if any of these things exist as to the people Mr. McMurry has enumerated or listed out for me. Frankly, I don’t think so, but I will make the proper –

THE COURT: Will you report back to me on that as quickly as possible.

MR. PETERSON: I can check on that when we make the arrangements to get the two tapes –

THE COURT: That would be satisfactory. And give me the information. I’m not ruling on any of that. I have only ruled so far on Armstrong and his wife, Joscelyn. Do you understand that?

MR. PETERSON: Oh, yeah.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4714

THE COURT: That, you understand?

MR. PETERSON: Clearly.

THE COURT: I’m withholding Flynn, McMurry, and et al, yet until you give me some information.

MR. PETERSON: That’s fine.

THE COURT: Do you understand that? I hate to keep saying, “Do you understand that,” with every every question, but I think I’m getting into that area where I’ve get to on the record “do you understand what I’m saying.”

MR. PETERSON: And I want the Court and everyone that I understand and I’m going to do my best to comply, as I have always done.

Now the other stuff, Your Honor, I think we have complied with all that in the previous discovery and this ongoing discovery. As I listen to the things, I would like a copy of that list that — you know, I think we have complied, but again –

THE COURT: You mean Mr. McMurry’s list?

MR. PETERSON: All these EDs and program orders and all that other stuff. And that I’m not so sure I understand. Maybe if I could –

THE COURT: Well, let’s get an understanding before we recess.

MR. PETERSON: His last paragraph relating to

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4715

Gerry Armstrong, that’s fine, his wife, Jocelyn, although her name hasn’t been mentioned in this case, I don’t think. But Mike Flynn, all these other people, all these policies and orders? It would be probably another hundred thousand –

THE COURT: No, no, no. I think I can clarify that. I thought you understood that. That only refers to this authorization for video taping and taping. Those other items do not refer to all those people.

MR. PETERSON: Executive directives, amended orders, directives –

THE COURT: Those are for Mr. Armstrong.


THE COURT: Now, do you understand?

MR. PETERSON: Now, it appears to be clear.

THE COURT: Okay. We will recess for lunch until 1:30.

Mr. Runstein, I think I have to talk to you.

(Court recessed at 11:58 a.m., and reconvened at 1:33 p.m.)

THE COURT: Good afternoon.

MR. COOLEY: Good afternoon, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson was going to give me a quick rundown, I think.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4716

MR. COOLEY: I know Mr. Peterson made the call and the man was in court. The secretary said he had left for court.

THE COURT: Maybe he is still working on that problem.

Now, before we hear from Mr. Peterson — and I’m hesitant about the cross-examination regarding the park incident — do you have another area you can proceed to until Mr. Peterson reports back?

MR. COOLEY: Yes, I can.

THE COURT: Very good.

Mr. Armstrong, would you come up to the stand, please.

(Witness resumed the witness stand.)

THE COURT: I have taken under consideration those matters I have discussed this morning. I’m not going to take any sanctions against Mr. Cooley. Mr. Cooley, are you paying attention? At this time I’m not taking any sanctions against Mr. Cooley. Mr. Cooley’s actions were not deliberate, I am convinced. And whatever comments he made toward the Court, I feel, were in the heat of his representation of his client.

MR. COOLEY: It’s a long, tough case, Your Honor.

G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4717

THE COURT: Do I take that to mean you agree?

MR. COOLEY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Let’s get the jury.

Wait. Here’s Mr: Peterson.

THE COURT: Mr. Peterson, any news for me?

MR. PETERSON: I put a call in to Toronto. The attorney was not in his office. He was expected back at the end of the day. And I said I would call back, and left my name and number. But I’m still confident that I can get in touch with him either later this afternoon or this evening and the tapes will be here. I don’t foresee a problem.

THE COURT: Okay. And you are working on the other aspects?

MR. PETERSON: As soon as I can get through to him, I can ask about the other items.

THE COURT: Including all the questions we had. Some were relative to Mr. Armstrong; some were relative to other videotapes which may or may not be in existence.


THE COURT: Communication, okay? We understand each other?

MR. PETERSON: We understand each other.


  1. The PI was Eugene Ingram, hired by Mark Rathbun, according to Memoirs.

Heber Jentzsch: On the Loyalist Program (November 30, 1984)

(Narrated by Heber Jentzsch)

Scientology’s transcript: Illegal video (November 30, 1984)


Meeting of 30 Nov 84

Between Mike and GA1, 2, 3 4

M How’re you doing?

G Good.

M I don’t have much time either.

G That’s okay, shoot. How things going with you.

M Pretty good. I have some questions that I need (tape goes out for a few words) to take back to the guys, cause we’re like, wanting to roll now.

G Good.

M Like wanting to move on this. The first thing I want to ask you though is did you tell Samuels and Corydon about us?

G Nope

M You didn’t say anything to them about us. You mentioned to me last time that you’d talked to them and I’m, we’re concerned that this is getting out of hand. You know, too many people?

G. Yeah, I don’t think there’s any (unintelligible few words and tape goes out for a second) is right now. Corydon called me and said he heard that, that I might know something about a take over and I said I know absolutely nothing and then I said however, I think it behooves each of us on on the outside, to realize there has to be a transition at some point and that sooner or later there’s gonna be a shift and we should all be thinking of how that should indeed be happening and what it should be like afterwards and that each one of us should be creating that so I said, I have no specific knowledge, I have none whatsoever, however, something has to happen, so I let them know that, yeah, they can always talk to me and that I dealt (unintelligible few words due to tape) varying particular positions outside the organization;obvious1y every time I talk to those guys you know. There’s an exchange of information but they know nothing the I could deduce about you guys. They contacted me cause they thought I’d know something. Now there are a lot of people who have been told. Not by me, but, you know, you guys won’t be able to keep the lid on it very much longer.

M Told by who?

G Well, Dan’s sister told at least 3, may 4 maybe more people

M Right

G Okay.

M We know about that.

G (unintelligible few words)It’s obvious that, that’s the only lea[] that I know of of any significance.

M Okay. Just don’t you tell anybody without us knowing who you’re going to talk to and what you’re going to say.

G No, no in fact, in each case, they contacted me to get information and I said, listen. (bad tape for a few words) I really don’t have any, so I tell them I don’t have any, however I’ve also told them that I’m glad you contacted me because I consider you, you guys part of the network and frankly, you’re, you both ought to be thinking, you know, the status quo can’t exist, what are we gonna do, so everyone  that I’ve talked to I nudge along that direction but as far as names, no one will ever at any time get a name out of me.

M Okay. But it’s not just names, just…

G Or even the existence of you guys.

M Right, exactly

G You know, probably lot of people know. Probably, I would say that, in the  Scientology world, people are so bored and they are so starved for excitement that they pass this shit around like, you know like…


M Okay, but we just want to make sure that you’re not passing around to anybody unnecessarily or doing anything that would damage our security

G So, in each case, like with Dave Jordan, Dave Jordan heard a particular rumour, I went out and saw him. Dave Jordan heard a rumour that Dan may be a,  double agent for the organization.

M Right.

G I went out specifically to dead end that thing and I let him know, listen, Dan simply doesn’t, Dan doesn’t have anything going with the organization.

M Good.

G And, and I let him know that every time you talk like that you put his life at risk, because the organization has a lot of heavies working for them, no one on this side’s going to hurt Dan

M Right, that’s exactly right, okay, that’s fine. I just wanted to make sure that was all cool.

G I do, I do what I can. I’m as sensible as I can, it’s on my mind the whole time, so take it from there. By the way, no one will ever get any names, any communications, any times, any dates or anything out of me, that’s, I’ll go to prison before I ever talk, okay. So you have to know that, because they’re wanting to depose me every couple of months. I’m simply saying, no, “anyone I talked to, that, that has nothing whatsoever to do with this lawsuit, the causes of action in my lawsuit began in 1969 when I was enticed into the Sea Organization and it ended in 1981 or they actually continue on because you guys have continued to harass me. But you…

M Not us, hey!

G I’m telling you what I would tell them in deposition, but they don’t get anything else, go ahead.

M Okay, so that, that’s fine, we have an agreement on that point.

G Right. And you guys also have to have your agreements worked out between yourselves too, like, I don’t know who knows I’m involved but, I’ll deny it!

M Okay, well, we haven’t said anything either.

G Good. Good.

M I mean we’re the ones that…

G The only reason I would deny it is for your guy’s skin, there’s nothing with me because I don’t give a shit

M Right, okay. Now. On this suit, we’ve gotten some legal advice on this, we’ve been doing quite a bit of work to gather the data and there’s a, there’s some points that are real concerning about this on specifically the three criminal charges in there, there are 3 specific things that are laid out as criminal charges and our advice is that if we don’t have the facts to support that stuff, we’re not going to be able to make any sort of TRO stick in a hearing for preliminary injunction.

G Okay.

M Now,..

G What about Homer Schomer and what’s his name? John Nelson. What I mean, Homer Schomer, here the guy was locked up, spat on, sec-checked, and …

M Yeah but, wait wait (spoken same time as above)


G  and then you continue on with that and he knows about 3[0, thirty] million dollars in a period of 6 months transferred to L. Ron Hubbard’s account.

M Yeah, but we’re talking, yeah, I got that, we’re talking about the specific criminal things, not civil, cause there’s a lot of stuff in here that’s like civil stuff, I’m talking about the criminal ones there’s three major ones, the first one being Krentzman, now…

G I’ll tell you what, I’ll tell you what I’ll do, let me just back up a little bit, I think I’ve got an attorney and the guy is fucking tough.

M We’ve got an attorney.

G So are you ok on attorneys.

M Yeah

G Well fuck, go, go for it then.

M What we’re concerned about is on these points, we’ve been checking these out to find out what data we can find, now …

G Let me talk to your attorney

M Well we may arrange that or he may arrange to get in contact with you but, you know

G You have a lot of faith in him?

M Yeah, but what I’m concerned about right now is somehow or another in this, in this complaint there are the three things that are listed down?

G right

M Now, from us checking…

G Listen, his complaint is based on information which he assumed you guys would have, take them out, just…

M Who

G Whoever wrote it. Simply because, number one, the thing about Flynn, I don’t give a fuck you know, Flynn is not guilty for one thing and the second point of that is, you don’t take money which is supposed to be used for charitable purposes and use it to defame and scandalize (unintelligible word or two)

M The point, the point I’m trying to get across is that, that’s not criminal that’s the, that’s the civil complaint (unintelligible two words) and that would have to be proven.

G Show me the line you’re talking about

M It’s over here.

G Where are the…. We didn’t have to prove a goddamn thing, We didn’t have to prove shit, we just have to allege it.

M Yeah, but if we’re, like, this is a little different sort of circumstances, like, if we allege that, right, then we’re not in the same position like where you were, where you had a whole trial, you were like, you know, you even said yourself that, that the position you were in was, you know, the Church is not believable to anybody, it’s like, you know, it’s got a very bad reputation, that put’s you in a position where the burden of proof moves  over to that side. We’re not in that position because we are the church.

G You are the church but you guys are dedicated to the cleaning up of the church, and if you can simply name, these are the guys who have control, they should not have control. We are the church and we should have control, and they have used this money illegally, because simply because they


should not do that. It all his to do with expenditures of money nobody gives a fuck about criminal things, it is all, whether or not the money is being used correctly, whether or not the people who are in fact in control are doing it legitimately.

M Yeah but, see the thing is what, what, our advice is, is that in order to make the injunction a hearing for a preliminary injunction stick, there’s gotta be some like criminal stuff, that would get it to stick. If we don’t have the preliminary injunction, we’re going to be up shit’s creek.

G Listen, here’s my understanding of the way you guys are in the organization, what, how do you propose to then do that, I can’t. I told you what I can do. You know.

M What I was really asking you is, is someone obviously put this together, whoever that may be, someone put it together and it would appear that someone had data, we aren’t able to find that data, we’ve found stuff that shows that, you know what the church has, but they’re not true, well then, do you have something, do you have something that we don’t have that we could use to support those things?

G Well, I told you you can use Shomer. You can use the fact of anyone you can use the fact of anyone that you know of being locked up. That’s illegal!

M There isn’t anybody locked up Gerry, that’s the problem.

G I was locked up.

M Have you got an affidavit on that?

G I’ve got fucking ton of affidavits, I see, I don’t know where your guys access is, in the organization I don’t know.

M Well, we can get, we can get a lot of shit, and we’ve been working on this for like a couple of weeks now.

G Do you have affidavits? Do you have affidavits?

M Of criminal stuff, no, that’s what we’re talking about.

G No, of anything, listen, anything, you know, like, all those things which we needed to document, even, damn policy violations how much are they paying to private investigators? Who runs the organization, who’s in control? That’s the kind of stuff we’ve got to have the board members, how does the transition of the board take place if you don’t know that, if you guys are in positions in the organization where nothing is known,

M Well that’s not the case.

G Right

M But the point is, is, we feel and our position is unless we have something that’s like strong, that we can move in with, and make a TRO stick and then going for a hearing and have it so that we can get that protection, we’re going to be real fucked. We’re going to have real troubles if we can’t get a preliminary injunction that sticks in the hearing.

G Yeah, okay, here’s the thing, let me talk to,

M We’ll get thrown out.

G Let me talk to your attorney, I want to see whether or not, number one the guy understands and number two if it’s only a 2 month deal anyway you know, he doesn’t have to dick around for years and go to a trial on it and if he does you guys just back out down to whoever signs it backs out and says, and says, well, I signed what I signed and, you know, sorry you guys deluged us with paper, too bad, you know, I’m not leaving the organization or I am leaving the organization or whatever they decide.


M You mean kind of quit at that point, if it wasn’t going the way we wanted, to, just pack it in.

G Why not? I mean if that’s the way it’s got to be, it only takes like a handful and so what, who the fuck wants to stay in that god-damn joint and you cant…

M well I do

G I know you do, but, you know, see I don’t know if it’s like if the scene is fine for you then there’s no reason to change it, and if it’s simply a motivation of greed then you guys are going to run into a lot of fucking troubles anyway. But if you think that that, you know it’s really fucked the way things are run, we shouldn’t have all these goddamn law suits and we should be able to go where we want, and talk to who we want, the fucking thing should make a lot of sense, and not only that but we shouldn’t be charging people the earth.

M That, that is our position.

G That’s the motivation, then fucking go for it because it’s a golden opportunity. Now, I don’t know what, I don’t know what’s happening up in Canada, it’s still happening, the thing has not come to fruition yet, they’ve got a day, they’ve got tomorrow, who knows what’s going to happen, they keep talking, the last thing they got was talking about bank accounts. CID’s going ahead, the fucking documents are coming out in the Armstrong case, the goddamn it’s happening, something is happening.

M Yeah, well, we’re we’re wanting to move on this thing

G Good then I need

M We’re gathering together a

G Good, then I need number one, I need your affidavits, get the fuckers to me and get me, let me see the attorney. Because, obviously the attorney is in a situation where he’s telling you something, he may not even have the goddamn concept. Are you following me?

M Yeah, but you, like

G By the way I think I got an attorney and I think that we should together $20,000 bucks pay the fucker up front, set up a damn office which will handle those fuckers. Because he’s not the of guy who’s going to be kicked around by anyone.

M Okay

G If you got one then I think that, then I’ll end off with this guy

M Yeah, we’ve got one

G Okay, then I think

M We’ve got one but what I’m asking you. I was simply asking you from having checked these things out, if there was something else that you have?

G (talking same time as M) What are the three things, what are the three things?

M Krenzman

G Okay

M There’s nothing to show us that

G What’s the other?

M Warren Dirnden

G Okay, those are the, okay


M And then Flynn.

G Okay, well Flynn we can put together. You know how much was spent on Flynn?

M Yeah, but it’s…

G It doesn’t fucking matter, all that matters is, you don’t spend 2 million dollars to PIs to commence … a scandal like that, it is god-damned well patently on its face illegal.

M We’re talking, yeah but we’re talking about, that’s not illegal, it isn’t illegal, we’ve already checked it, it’s not illegal to do that, that’s the complaint, that’s the complaint, that we will bring, but that’s not a criminal matter, that’s not a crime.

G Let’s put it this way, there could be people going to jail over it.

M Well I know that

G You, you, it’s a civil law suit.

M Yeah, but that’s what, it’s a civil law suit, that’s true.

G All you have to allege is that, number one, so many you know, how much was spent by the organization to, at the orders of these people…

M But alleging things, but alleging things, that’s fine, that’s going to take the whole trial, just like, well, you know, I’m talking about the concern over the preliminary injunction. Alleging things is fine and alleging things will work in certain cases

G All you have to do to have them act immediately, that’s all you have to do.

M What is?

G Is to say, that’s all that needs to be said.

M Yeah, but a hearing, then we have a hearing for the preliminary injunction and it’s like (raspberry sound)

G Yeah, but you know, you got a lot of things going for you, if you follow on the tail of all these people being indicted at the top of the organization, and the fact that, that

M We never know when that’s going to happen, that keeps like being, today, tomorrow, you know…

G Hold on, hold on, listen, we either gonna go ahead or we’re not okay, now I don’t quite know what you’re asking me because I don’t have the information on those three things. Now, here’s …

M Ok, that was all I was asking you, if there was something else you had, something you could get for us on those, that would give us a stronger position.

G Well, what I’m telling you if I were to get the affidavits on the outside from Schomer and from Nelson. I don’t know if Nelson’ll even talk to me, but I’ll give it a try. And beyond that, want to talk to the attorney. No, there’s no one around aside from Michael Flynn who has an understanding of this whole fucking thing like I do and that’s a fact.

M Okay. I mean is, is Flynn willing to help us on this?

G Well, what the fuck do you think, we talk every day about it. But that’s not for you to report around…

M No, okay, okay.

G Because I have no intention of hurting Mike Flynn.

M Right.


G But, I’m telling you, he’s behind it a 100%, absolutely behind it.

M Right, okay.

G You know, we could use his affidavit alone, his affidavit along with, you know copies of the, of what they’re doing, there’s no proof against Mike Flynn, there’s nothing, it’s a bunch of hollow bullshit and people were paid-criminals! Fucking guy in jail on a murder, on murder being paid for

M Okay, Okay

G for testimony to defame

M Okay, listen, I understand all that, we went over that before, I was, I had the specific question that I was asked, the one about, do you have any other data specifically to support any of those things that we are unable to get.

G Are you able to get money?

M what do you mean money?

G How much was spent, How much to attorneys? figures, I don’t know,

M Yeah, we can get the figures

G Give them to me, ask for them, ask for them, ask for them, I gotta have fucking stuff relayed, it won’t work if we

M Who you going to relay that to though

G We’ll put the fucking scene together-who’s doing it, who has the scene, who, who, do you have any people who can analyze data do you have a goddamn data bank, do you have someone, someone who’s the courier, is a fucking network set up, we gotta do it otherwise we, fuck it you know, all go off and pursue life.

M Right.

G We gotta have a fucking thing, I need to know who were the fucking assholes who photographed me and get me the number of the car. If you haven’t got a guy who can walk around out in the fucking parking lot and tell me the license…

M Hey, wait a minute, wait a minute Gerry!

G Hold on, now listen to me, because…

M No

G I’m not attacking you guys!

M You are, you, you …

G No.

M You come out here and give me a bunch of shit, like,

G. I’m trying to fucking build a fire, we can do it, I’m with you a fucking hundred percent, but we can’t if we let fucking individual egos and all that, the time constraints and all the other things get involved. I know you guys are under pressure, I know it’s a pisser getting out: I’m trying to work with you, but, I feel, I gotta be frank, if you don’t get from me what the fucks on my mind, what good am I to you, I’m trying to give you data as rapidly and as accurately as I can …

M Okay.

G I have a lot of questions, I

M Okay


G you know, boy if you can get somebody who can fucking write

M I understand (said same time as above)

G write this shit, give me reports, I’ll, fuck we can analyze them and, and go back in for the other specifics that are missing and we can,

M Okay, Okay I understand!

G And we can start getting affidavits typed up and we can talk over legal shit with the attorney because the time is right and believe me, I am of a philosophic mind, wherein it really doesn’t matter one way or the other when it’s done or even if it’s done, but when I’m with you I kind of try and do speak my mind, I’m not after you, I’ve a great deal of admiration and respect for you because it takes a fucking lot of courage to even walk out of the goddamn joint. And to talk to me because I’m not exactly number one on your personality list. You know, I badly grate people

M Right

G but I happen, by sheer default, I’m in the position where on the outside at least, a lot of people talk to me and I got fucking good legal mind, and I can help out and I’m not, I know the guys involved and I’m not going to back down from them.

M Okay.

G I can help you, but…

M Right, that’s what we want.

G. I can’t help you if, you know, if…

M. Well, I’ll tell you something, I’ll tell you something, there is a little, this is making me feel a little better what you’re saying, because there’s generally been some concern that what’s going on is that, that, you are in a position where you’re giving us stuff, you’re feeding us data, quote unquote, being a coordination line, but all that’s happened so far is we’ve gotten these things and we check them out it looks like well maybe we’re going to get shafted if we do this and there is a little concern that, that, we’re being set up on this thing, you know, first of all it was coordination with, with these other guys and

G Listen, Listen, Listen

M You know, here’s a suit and you guys go in there and file a suit, you guys go in and argue about this and…

G You happen to be in a position, you happen, you, it just happened that I was in a position where I heard that there was a group inside and then things went from there, no one has any motivation to hurt you guys or to use you guys at all, in fact I am absolutely willing right now to say, listen, let’s just end it you know, go back to, to, go back to the status quo. I won’t hurt you guys, I won’t talk about you, we’ll just end it. I’m absolutely willing to do it. On the other hand I do this because I think, you know, I like to talk to people, I like to talk to you guys and the fucking thing interests me to a great degree, it’s extremely exciting, the possibility that exists here. But not only that, but just in, in, my life, and …

M Right,

G In life in general, I approach things differently. I’m just you know, you get what you get. I’m not going to fuck you over. I’ll support you as much as I can, you know, you know I don’t have any money, and you know that I’m pretty strapped just litigating my own case, but, I’ll do what I can and that’s all you get from me


M Right

G I never, in all the time I dealt with him, I’ve never found Mike Flynn to lie to me, or to, or to be anything but decent. Not once. You know, he’s like I am, he’s, you know, he gets pissed off every once in a while, a lot less than I do…

M What, okay …

G So all you, and that’s the whole way these [t]hings work. It’s just on trust, that’s all you, that’s all you’ve got. I don’t think anyone is setting you up. It may happen that you’ll feel like holy fuck, we’ve been set up, that’s just the way life is, it pisses you off, you can’t live in a cocoon in this goddam place.

M I understand that, all I, all I was telling you was being up front and telling you what, why there was some concern , what there is concern about.

G Exactly, you guys have got a goddamn committee, am I right, there’s a committee?

M Right, there’s a committee,

G It’s a guasi-democratic committee. I know, and it’s fine I think that, again, relay it back, whatever happens, happens and it’s okay with me, I couldn’t give a fuck if you-guys turn me in I really, you know, I’d be a bit disappointed but I’d get over it real quick because right on the other side of that disappointment there’d be some other great, great mound of excitement and you guys live in an exciting time and you got a shot at it and frankly I’ve only met two of you, but I like the two that I’ve met, I like Dan and and I’d like to see the whole goddamn thing ended & I’d like to see it ended in this, you know somewhat exciting fashion. A lot of things are happening, Canada, I don’t know what the fucks going on there, but there’s a news black out, they’re not talking, so something’s going on, whether or not it’s a failure, who knows. You know CID’s proceeding, you know, the documents

M Have a lot of, definitely should (talking over G) right

G The documents have stirred people up. I’m only one fucking guy out here, that’s it, but I do what I can.

M But that’s not true, you’re not just one guy. You’re not.

G That’s right because I have…

M. You’re not, you’ve got comm lines to all sorts of people,

G Just by default…

M talking to the CID all the time, talking to the Canada, talking to all these guys you know, well…

G Exactly, I’m talking to them by default. No one has, there’s no Che Guevera around, no one’s risen to the occasion…

M Well I’ll you something, what I can’t figure out is, if there is some connection between your relationship to us and your relationship to them, from their side, you see what I mean?

G You mean are they using me?

M Yeah.

G Oh no, ah, nobody’s given me the slightest indication of that, you know, every time I talk to CID about, about you guys, they say god have them talk to us, you know, they want to talk they want to know about the way things are. That’s about it. I don’t have anything to promise them, fuck what am I gonna do, you know.

M. So their interest in you is primarily from the viewpoint of your docs?

G No, their interest in my is primarily the fact that I, I happen to have particular knowledge and I happen to be, to some degree a clearing house of information. People contact me and they


talk about this and I happen to he fairly well connected. That’s about it, so, so they kind of, they use that, but I’m not a, I don’t know, you know, what status I am as a witness as far as they’re concerned, I know the language an: I can talk it, that’s why they talk to me. And if they have a question they talk. I mean…

M I understand, I mean, you’re obviously a good witness, I mean

G I’m a witness and I have, and I have documents, documents, but they’ve never talked to me about the documents under seal other than I gave them, I talked to them about this, do you know what a window of vulnerability is?

M Yeah

G Well, in law, there’s a certain thing, which is kind of like a window of the law, and there’s a particular, like a window of vulnerability, is at a given time, it’s like something opens up you know, like a window in space and you’re vulnerable at that time and so it just happened that this judge, remember Judge Petris who let the goddamn documents out, by the way I just heard on the news that he, that he retired today.

M He retired?

G Isn’t that funny? He released all these other docs to CID, and then copied them all, during the releasing time, and then they all sealed up again, and the CID made off with all these documents…Just hilarious.. because ultimately, you know, you can’t stop the truth from coming out.

M No one’s going to, there’s no liability to that?

G No I don’t see it, I know you guys are concerned, but I, I don’t see it at all, no liabilities and everything that happened, every time the organization makes, goes to another court, that thing, alone, you guys could win it on Armstrong alone.

M what do you mean?

G By simply saying that, that you’re Scientologists and there are these documents under seal and frankly Scientologists will never get to see them; the organization has spent how much Armstrong, it’s all gotta be accounted for in the various cases, so you can say, ok the organization, they spent 93,000 dollars on PIs to push me around, it’s a fucking crime to assault me, I got your crime, I was driven in to. Tried to drive me off the freeway, no fucking crimes, I’ll give you an affidavit.

M Gerry, I mean, Ok I don’t know, I don’t know anything about that, how, how, it’s like, that’s a little incredible to me, they drove you off the highway!

G Oh, no, he tried, first of all he got…

M Who, I mean

G just turned right in front of me, he’s a PI, I took photos of him, I got a fucking bank of photos and you’ll note did you read the, did you read the result of the hearing by Judge Breckenridge?

M Yeah

G Did you notice, oh later on, I sent you guys in those documents that was on Ingram, and it was during the time we were looking into the Flynn thing. Judge Breckenridge slapped down Peterson because he said, that, all the testimony regarding what the PIs did went uncontradicted, in other words, that’s it, that’s, that is the issue–it’s been litigated, it’s right in print, that’s what they did,


and my wife was with me the whole time. We were the last, day-in and day-out.

M Yeah, the thing, yeah okay, I understand that, I mean obviously was one of points that I had, your suit, when you were fighting your suit, it was like, you know, a little guy against this big organization that, you know (funny sound) and that tends to put you in a somewhat, you know, sympathetic type of position, you know, the big, it’s like a big corporation vs some individual.

G A big corporation’s one thing, but bullies is another, that’s the whole, that’s what (word) is…

M But regardless of that, yeah, but, that’s, one of the concerns is, we’re not going to have that positioning. Some way or another we’re going to have to establish, we’re going to have to establish the same sort of you know, whatever you established in your trial where…

G (spoken over M) yeah, I’ll tell you how you establish it

M You became believable (spoken over G) and you became like, even, even things…

G You know because I am fucking believable not that I became believable, I never had…

M I don’t became I mean you were believable!

G Yeah exactly!

M You were believable on things that

G You know why, because the organization lies.

M I don’t understand how that makes you, yeah, I guess I do

G Look, if you’ve got one guy that’s telling the truth as he sees it, and it’s obvious and you know that the organization is lying, Mary Sue was caught in a dozen lies; and and you know that the organization has bought professional muscle to push around its adherents. Guys that it, you know, you kind of don’t, if someone says, well, your founder’s full of shit, your founder sucks eggs, you don’t go out and hire a PI to push the guy around, that, you guys are so fucking indoctrinated you have no idea what the world’s like out here. You might do that, you guys are operated like a fucking Russian communist regime, how can you buy muscle? Come on. You all got to toe the line, you all gotta believe the same fucking thing, you all (words drowned out)…

M Yeah, but the point of that, the point of that is, is, well, lying for the cause, I mean, lying for the cause, is, I consider this cause is something worth lying about, I lie about it every day.

G Maybe you do…

M It’s a matter of, well…

G I know, I know

M So do you, I mean, its’…

G But there’s a difference, there’s a fucking big difference…

M Right

G Because …

M That’s what I’m saying is, some way or another we have to establish that so that that becomes our positioning, because,


because it is a matter, it is a matter of positioning (tape skip) because you can go in and you can make allegations and they would tend to stick better if you’re (viewed?) the right way.

G Just remember that, just, yeah, you’re right: there’s going to be a certain amount of PR attached to this, but just remember all the positioning bullshit that the organization has involved itself in and all its superior PR tech: its PR sucks. But don’t think necessarily that the way things have been handled by the organization is, or even by me or by anyone else, is necessarily the way to go. You guys have a situation of being very courageous individuals who are speaking out to right some wrongs. That’s it. And you’re saying that the organization is using money that you guys worked for…

M Right.

G …in a wrong manner, and you’re requesting…

M I understand that. I understand that.

G So the positioning is sim…I’ll tell you what the positioning is, the positioning is lies vs. truth: positioning is courage vs. cowardice. That’s your positioning. They lie…

M Tha…yeah.

G They lie…

M Well, some way or another…

G Of course, they try it against all the, you know, the (Big Six?) have provided false testimony to federal agencies, but it doesn’t wash, it doesn’t wash with federal agencies…

M Right.

G It doesn’t wash with anyone. And that’s because it’s already known that they lie.. Well, you’re saying: I am fed up with my organization lying. I’m here to clean up the god-damned act. And the way…

M I got it. In that case, we have a better chance of making our stuff stick, right?

G Well, you have to build these things and you have to have people, you have to have real names on the bottom of the damned thing…

M Right.

G …for one, and you have to have people who are going to be willing to talk to press immediately, who are going to know what the fuck’s going on, and better have their language together, you know, and better be pretty fucking instant from the party line in there. Because if they’re spewing the same party line, which everyone sees as a bunch of bullshit, you’re in for a lot of trouble. But if you say we’re not, absolutely not, we are here to save Scientology, we are not here to destroy it, that again is another lie perpetrated by the organization. who the fuck wants to destroy? That’s just another lie. They lie.

M Uh, that’s fine. I thought you were saying, we’re here to destroy the organization and that’s a lie. I’m fine…

G No, you guys…

M I got it…

G You’re right about the positioning but it isn’t a big thing. It is just a dichotomy. You’re suing them because 1) you’re honest and you want the facts known, number 2, they’re spending money on illegal things and here they are: l,2,3,4,5. They spent so much money to go after, attach the fucking, attach the god-damned issues from Freedom. Go after these…


M Right, so so…okay. Some way or another, some way or another, you accomplished that. That’s what we’ve got to accomplish.

G That’s right.

M I mean, you accomplished that sort of positioning. You accomplished, you accomplished a lot! (From 512 to 729 on the counter at the end of Side 1 of the tape is blank)

Start of Side 2:

M …And you would even say, now it puts me in a position where you know, I’m kind of stuck with that, because I did accomplish it.

G Listen, I’m gonna give you, I appreciate that, let me just give you one word of advice: in my opinion, it is necessary, not because of everything that’s happening up in Canada, for you guys to act fairly rapidly, and that, it’s a very logical reason. The Armstrong case brought to the surface a great number of documents, right?

M Yeah.

G Documents which show fraud. Right. You agree?

M Well, I haven’t seen all those things…

G Okay, they show…

M I don’t know what they show and what they don’t show. I have no idea…

G You saw what the Judge, you saw what the Judge said. I mean, be realistic, you saw what the Judge said about Hubbard…

M Yeah, I’ve seen the Judge…

G …(couple of words blurred) pathological liar.

M …I’ve seen the Judge’s order.

G Well, that’s kind of the way it is. Now, what ha…that…

M Yeah, I understand. That puts a…

G …that opens up, on my fraud count, I have a fraud case, just about everyone else has a fraud case…and they now have the documents. Fraud, a statute of limitations for fraud runs from the date, I believe it’s a two-year statute, and it runs from the date of the …

M …discovery…

G …discovery of the fraud…

M Right, I understand…

G There could be a run on the bank…

M I understand…

G And I think if you move (the guys?)…

M I understand what you’re saying…

G And nip the god-damned thing in the bud before that happens, otherwise you’re all going to be left…

M well, well, what I…

G …holding a very empty bag and one…

M Well, we don’t want that!

G Exactly, and one…


M We don’t want that!

G …and one with a lot of indebtedness attached to it. More law suits…

M Yeah, well, we’re not interested in that.

G Exactly.

M and that is why we’re, like…

G …that’s why you guys…

M …a little, let’s move…

G That’s why if you guys frankly want to save Scientology, fucking slap those guys down!

M Yeah but, okay. I understand that entirely. We’re…that’s… we’re moving in the same direction on that…

G Good.

M Moving in the same direction on. The point is for us to take a look at this and make sure that we are moving in the right fashion, and not doing things that are gonna fuck us up. Now, I know you can’t guarantee what’s gonna happen, but there are certain things that you can do to try and…

G You can be real sensible about it..

M Yeah, be sensible about it…

G Okay, but, listen, who are the fuckers who photographed me? I mean, do me a favor, you’d write these things down. Maybe you already know them…

M I know them. I’ll tell you something, straight up front, Gerry?

G Yeah.

M Right now?

G Yeah.

M I didn’t even bring the license plate number.

G You have it?

M Straight up front. Yeah.

G Okay.

M And the reason I didn’t bring it is what I told you because I came here to get some data to take back to the Committee because there was concern about the fact whether you were setting us up and therefore you…

G Ah,…listen…

M …and therefore, why should we give you more information.

G Listen, who’s the most concerned? Who’s the guy in your Committee who stirs the most shit, is it you or someone else? Who’s the guy who says…

M Why?

G Heh?

M Why?


G Because I want to fucking talk to him! He could go on for weeks about “We’re not sure if we trust you, Jack”. Well, frankly, I’m not sure I trust you either. “Yeah, but we’re not going to proceed unless we know if we can trust you.” Yeah, but there’s no way you could possibly know! You got to perceive (couple of words). You know “he who doesn’t go out on a limb doesn’t get an opportunity to fall off.”

M Right, OK. Well. I think that will…

G Yeah…

M I think that, that what…

G Listen. Hold on

M I think this will help handle that point.

G All I’ve done is get (couple words). In any case, let me ask you a couple of things. I would like to, it’s difficult for you to get out. I’m only going to be here possible until December 18th. See, I’m going to be gone for possibly three weeks, be up in Canada.

M On holiday.

G Lot of things. You know, I’m getting, my wife and I are splitting up. That’s for you alone, don’t make an issue of it inside the organization, okay? Everything’s fine! no problem.

M Okay.

G And she’s cool and she’s protected by you know by marital privilege which will exert…What?

M By marital privilege? I don’t know what that means.

G Anything that we’ve ever discussed.

M Oh, I see.

G …she may not talk about it.

M Have you, have you discussed us with her?

G Sh…no.

M She doesn’t know about us?

G Well, she’s known for some time because she was there when Dan told all of us.


G When Dan…she knows no names. She knows nothing else. She knows that occasionally I go off to meet people. She doesn’t know who or anything.

M Is she a risk any risk to us?

G Well, I don’t see she’s any risk to you. You know, everyone’s a risk. That’s what life’s all about. You run towards the risks, just go after them, grab them by the fucking throat. Uh, get me those guys names, please, whoever the three were. Now, one of them, do you know who they were?

M No, I don’t know who the people were.


G OK. Cne of then had reddish hair. He looks like he’d be in his late twenties. Good looking kid. Fairly tall, 6’1”. About…

M OK. I know what you want on that.

G Good.

M The problem is not knowing what you want.

G Blond guy, I guess these guys were all security personnel. Blond, blond hair, okay, those are the two that I ID’d definitely. I’ve seen them around the organization.


G Uh…

M Listen…

G I gotta, you gotta go, I gotta know about your attorney, you know, are you guys just gonna take it, what do I have to do, I need to know have you got any money, are you really going ahead, should I drop it with the existing attorney, do you feel…

M Yeah, don’t you bother about the existing attorney, right now. We have, our guy is handling this. We figured out, we even figured out who we can make the external Trustee. We have some work or that. I mean, we’re like…

G OK, if there’s an attorney and he says questions, legal questions to bat around, he should call Mike. The only problem with him calling Mike is, Mike’s not going to know who the fuck he is. Are you following me?

M Yeah.

G. So I have to know who he is in order to make an introduction. Because without that, there’s a problem. Because the guy could be, Mike’s going to think “Who the fuck is this guy? Setting me up. He’s with the organization.”

M I understand, I understand.

G OK. Is he retained?

M Why do you need to know this?

G Why the fuck can’t I? Like I say, nothing goes beyond here. Because I need to know what the fuck is going on!

M Well, see, that’s where there’s a slight difference of opinion, is that, we don’t think you need to know everything that’s going on with us. There’s no reason for that why? I already told you that we have an attorney. We have someone that’s been helping us with this and moving along. That’s enough. You don’t need to know anything more than that.

G Like I say, he should he has legal questions, he needs someone that…

M He has questions about the data. About what data we have. That was the question.

G (pause) OK. Um, do you guys have anything you want? Are we through?

M Oh, no, not quite. You remember earlier you told Joey and Danny about putting together some docs? What do you think you could do if we could get ahold of Ingram’s letterhead?


G I wouldn’t want to touch it with a barge pole. Don’t need to.

M Why not?

G (pause) I don’t even want to discuss that matter.

M. OK. I…

G Not for this? I can’t see anyway. You know, if we were in to death, if that was our aim, you know, we wanted to snuff some people and really mess them up good, yeah, you could do some things, but no, I don’t have any idea on that. I think that you know, if you guys are going ahead, then I think just go for it and kind of let it shake out the way it is.

M You don’t see anything in, in trying to push this a little harder. Because that’s what we sort of got on the original idea and then it died.

G The FBI report.

M It sort of [d]ied. Nothing ever eventuated from it although it was talked about a number of times. Now…

G (murmurs) Can you get the letterhead?

M Yeah we have access to, we have access to a lot of stuff. There’s no question that we have access to it. It’s a matter of how do we utilize it. And what do we put together.

G You know anything more about the [] situation?

M Well, we checked all that out on this thing. We checked out all the stuff that these guys have got. Everything we checked. We checked all the affidavits, the photos, everything.

G Do you have a complete affidavit?

M All those guys? Yeah.

G Even the (one word) one?

(Someone speaks in Spanish, ending with “quarter”.)

M I don’t speak Spanish

S [Stranger] Uh, you have one quarter?

M No man. No quarters.

(S says something else and then voice fades off in distance)

M Drugged out of his mind.

G Well, what do you think? Did we come to an impasse here?

M I don’t think so.

G One of these great psychodramas.

M Nope.

G I’d like to, I don’t know, do you need me saying this shit? You know, you feel like you got the whole thing under control, like, I can ease out of the picture?

M No! You want to ease out?

G No! But I feel like I’m, you know, kind of like a (chuckles) called up here to find out whether or not you can trust me. For what?


M Well be that as it may, that’s what occurred today. And…

G I know, and…

M You know, that’s like…

G I understand. It just seems like I…

M I am in a bit of a strange position because I gotta go back and if I go back and give what really is wanted to be heard type of thing? It doesn’t work. And that’s all there is to it.

G Is there a top dog? Is there like someone who is the fucking force behind this sucker? Is there some…

M Yeah.

G Yeah? Are you it?

M Nope.

G Is he the guy who has to be convinced? Because I’d like to talk to someone, you know, um…

M What do you want to say to them that you haven’t said to me? I mean, anything?

G Yeah. I really want to know where does it sit with the attorney? Is the guy gonna go with it? I mean, you know, where are the affidavits. God,  gotta have the fucking things so they can be set up and structured.

(Someone asks for any extra change)

M No man.

G I got it. I got a little extra change. I hope. (some conversation I can’t get) Not a lot. just a couple of bucks. Okay? You got it. I wish I could give more.

M Listen, I have a question. I asked you about this before and this is sort of an additional thing that, what is the real scene as regards us not getting shafted by the agencies even if we took over, or if we make our move?

G Well…

M Can we get any sort of a guarantee that we’re not gonna than get shit on by them?

G I think your, I think you guys should, should talk to them and let them know what the fuck you are doing and that you intend to clean up the god-damned place…

M But what do they say to you. I mean you told them about us, obviously. What do they say to you about us. I mean, see the trouble with that is, if we reveal ourselves to them directly, that’s it. We can be subpoenaed, we can,  you know, they can do whatever they want with us at this point.

G There’s definitely a certain amount of risk in it, but they’ll meet you under any circumstances. And no names. But obviously, they’re looking for they’re looking for information. CID has its eye ons, solely, so they’ve said, David Miscavige and L. Ron Hubbard. Maybe the…

M So what do you, what do you, I mean, you’re the guy that deals with them, that’s one of the things you do, what’s like your opinion of it? Where do you think they would sit?


G Let me give you my opinion of them. My opinion of them, all that I’ve dealt with, is that they are very realistic and very decent people. You know, they’re probably hotshot American University boys, who got plucked by Uncle Sam out of the graduating class of their respective universities and put into law enforcement. CID is, I mean, they’re gun-toters. They’re like FBI, but they’re enforcement. They’re not like, you know, all the other FBI cases that are now going on. You are all looking at defensive actions. See, you deal with a bunch of attorneys. FBI does not, to my knowledge, currently have an investigation going. CID does and, you know, various other agencies do, but… my opinion is that what will happen is that a transition of power will occur and then your attorneys will be dealing with, as the organization attorneys have, the various government agencies. It’ll just be a transition. You’ll simply have to fire your old attorneys and have to look at whether or not they’ve fucking mis-represented you, whether or not they should all have their asses slapped for mal-practice, ‘cause they’ve taken a lot of money and you guys haven’t won a god-damned suit.

M Listen, I, I…

G Okay?

M Yeah, I have a question. What if he says, like they obviously know about your dealing with us to some degree. Are they ever going to like move on us for this? Like try and get us into deposition about what we’re doing with you?

G No. I don’t see how they can. They don’t know who you are.

M But they could ask you.

G Yeah, well, I’ll never tell them. You know, until you guys say “Well, I want to talk.” I mean, that’s just the way it is. I’ve told them I don’t know anyone’s name.

M Okay. It’s a point of…

G I see no downside regarding your, regarding those people for you guys. They do, every one I’ve talked to in Justice and CID and everywhere, says, the place is operated like a business. So, there’s going to be, there’s going to be a transition. It’s gotta change. It cannot, it cannot continue, there’s mounting opposition to it. And it can’t…so, it’s gonna change. And you guys, if you take over, are going to end up dealing with the government agencies exactly like the organization does now. The difference being, you’re not going to spend a billion dollars to come up with nothing. You’ve got to clean up the ship. It has to be! You can’t, you know, the organization cannot continue being so fucking righteous.

M Can we go, can we go into this with a pretty fair expectation that that if we were to actually accomplish our takeover, that we wouldn’t then have to be fighting tooth and claw with those guys? (pause) Just like when you said you don’t want to take over an entity which has nothing left to it except a bunch of debts, we don’t want to (GA oh no! no!) take over something that has nothing left to it except a bunch of government agencies all over our back going “WAAA”.

G Oh, No! I’ll tell you this. If you guys were to say “Listen, we want to take over, we want to clean it up, we’re willing to make our books available to you, we’re willing to open the whole damn thing up because we want to know like you want to know, we want to know where every god-damned penny has gone, and we want to know what the fuck it’s been used for. And we want to know if any of our former parishioners, specifically Miscavige and Co. or whoever, has some villa in Switzerland. I mean you guys…

M Now, would we be liable for anything that had occurred previously? Do you see what I mean? If we’re taking over, now we’re the Church, do we then become liable for, if there is stuff, do we then become liable for that? Are we then gonna be in the hotseat about the stuff.


G I don’t see how you can be. I don’t see how you can be. What cases exist? What if something has happened? You people weren’t the organization then. You have the statutes run on virtually everything from back in the Mary Sue days. And if you’re into something more current, then I think, again, you guys have solved that problem just by filing the law suit. I don’t see that as any problem. I really don’t.

M Okay.

G You know, there may be individual things. Let’s say one of your guys hauled off and hit someone, you know, and was an asshole, maybe he’s gonna have to handle that. By the way, do you guys have any information on Miscavige hitting people? Do you know where John Axel is?

M No, No. I don’t know where Axel is now.

G Well, Axel was held and Miscavige belted him. There’s criminal activity.

M Well, okay.

G I’m telling you…!

M That’s fine. I understand…

G Don’t pass that sort of stuff off because I give you good god-damn ideas. Someone can come up with an affidavit. Somewhere John Axel still exists.

M I see what you’re saying. I thought that was a digression off the other thing.

G No! You’re asking me what I knew about things. I can come up with, uh, the guy in England, what’s his name, Jay Hurwitz wrote some document which listed out a number of people who were hit, Roger Barnes by Miscavige, and he hauled off, somebody, you know, this guy was a little runt, and the guy fucking…

M Okay.

G Now that’s important to you guys, because you have to get across to the immediate hearing Judge what can be expected.

M (laughs) That’s exactly what, that’s exactly what I was talking about on this thing…

G I’ve been saying it all along, where you guys can simply say…

M I got it. I got it!

G What’s the danger you’re in now!

M I got it.

G You’re in fucking danger.

M I got it. I got…yeah, I duplicate that. That’s fine. So…

G (having tried to interrupt several times.) Listen, I’d like, I’d like, oh…

M Can you, can you change…I have a question.

G Yeah.

M Can you, I don’t know if you’ve ever even brought this up to the CID guys. Is it re, you know, would they even answer that question?


G What?

M What would their position be?

G Their position would be to work with you guys! It would be that. You’re swapping, what you’re swapping is “we will work with you. We’ll open our books.” …

M And that would give us therefore immunity for anything that may come, see, there is a liability to that. If we open our books, we’re now in charge. …

G No!

M …what if there’s something in there, are we then, do we then become liable for that?

G No! Why? The guy…

M Because who else is the head of the corporation now?

G Because the guy they’re going after. You are there to patch up a corporation which has been vandalized, which has been ripped off. How much bucks does CSC have?

M OK. I understand. I got it.

G You’re, good. I want to talk to people. I don’t give a fuck who. And I don’t have a lot of time. You know. I’m gonna be around for 18 more days max.

M Ok. Like, uh, we’ve been trying to get a hold of you a bit, because we are moving ahead. It’s not like all stalled or anything. We’re moving.

G Let me talk to the attorney. You can call me in for just god-damned information.

M Ok.

G From then, I want to talk to him and I want to put him in touch with Mike Flynn. ‘Cause he’s gotta get the legal. You know, I deal with this thing on a couple of levels. There’s the minutiae, which we’re talking about right now, little details, which we’re talking about right now.

M Right.

G But then there are the big broad god-damned legal concepts, which are important for an understanding of the whole thing and the way it can resolve. There’s a lot of the minutiae which I don’t know about. But the ultimate legal concepts I grasped pretty quick.

M Okay. And Flynn could, could definitely…

G Flynn is, is a fucking good attorney. And he knows it. And he can help the guy.

M Could he even like…well…

G Provide affidavits?

M Yeah, well you already said that.

G Certainly provide one on the, on what’s the situation with him.

M Okay. Yeah, it’s probably a good idea.

G Me, I need to know…


M I mean, somewhere or other, you’ve already accomplished it, so you’re to some degree, you’ve won, you’ve won a suit. So you’re to some degree have a viewpoint. You have managed to accomplish something so that’s, that is definitely worth taking into consideration. You know what I mean?

G Yeah.

M (amusement in voice) I mean to be totally frank with you?

I read the, I read the Judge’s order. I find it a little unreal to believe that that you really felt that you joined Scientology because of what LRH had represented as his background. I don’t…

G Ah, fuck! Didn’t you?! (very fierce)

M No way, man!

G Oh, did you think that, that the guy was a pathological liar.

M All I knew was that, the reason I joined, and the reason why everybody else that I know, which is why I even brought it up, they look at the technology and it makes some sort of sense to them. They go, “Oh, this looks like something that I could get interested in.”

G Yeah, but what’s the li…well. What keeps you in the Sea Org for $10 bucks a week, because you think…

M It’s the same thing. I still believe the technology…

G Because you think L. Ron Hubbard is…ah…

M …is workable. Because it works for me.

G Right. Because you, because you… You’re supposed to… It’s the purpose of every post to help Ron clear the planet, to help Ron do such-and-such. Is he really cl… the fucking guy lied to you all.

M (starts laughing) The tech works for me! Ah, anyway, that’s a…

G It’s important to someone definitely on the outside. You know, and all of a sudden one day you might find, I’m not saying that you will, all of a sudden you might find you know, when you realize, you know, for fuck sakes! The guy did lie. Now let’s really examine what, you know, what exactly happened. Okay. I’ve done these god-damned levels. Am I really OT? (long pause) (when GA starts speaking again. is voice is low and flat, after being high and fierce) I don’t know. I, I (clears throat) you know. I thought it’s a bit of a shame about Judge Breckenridge, at this point, that he’s being attacked by these assholes. But he’s, you know, the guy’s a courageous, he’s a strong, he’s a funny man, and that’s about it. It was extremely fair, and all this shit about comments he made about about them is so much horse puckey. More bullshit, more lies by their fucking scurrilous attorneys. It’s just pure, god, it just disgusts me that attorneys are that fucking low. The organization’s got them. I gotta go.

M Me too.

G Listen, if somebody can’t get out on a regular basis, see if um, I don’t know! (mutters something) See if Joey’s got a (word). And, just as an aside, tell them that this is absolutely the last time they get to check me out to see whether or not they trust me.

M Okay.

G After this they can go fuck himself. Tell whoever the kingpin is that.

M Okay. We’ll be in comm. (GA is at a distance: I want to talk to (several words too distant to hear). Pass the word.

M OK. Drive safely.

G Yeah, bye.


  1. This document in pdf format.
  2. This document is Exhibit D to Declaration of John G. Peterson (22 January 1986) filed in Armstrong 1.
  3. Scientology submitted a partial transcript of this meeting in their 1023 submission to the IRS: Exhibit III-10-Q: Transcript of meeting between J and GA on 7 November 1984 (1993).
  4. This video was shown at trial in Christofferson. See court transcript.

Transcript: Illegal video (November 17, 1984)

Transcript of 17 November, 19841, 2, 3, 4

Meeting between Mike and GA.

M Got your dollar?

G Yeah, how’re you doing?

M Very good. How are you?

G Not bad.

M Finally.

G There you go.

M You going to give that back to me?

G If you like.

M Listen I think I needed it more than you do, I think. (Both laugh).

G Got it. Go ahead.

M So here I am. Now, I guess you’re probably gonna want to know a little bit about why me. But, ah, the reason I [w–] to meet you is because we’re a little concerned at this point at the fact that, you know that stuff is being relayed through this relay point and you know that there may be some misduplication occurring and shit. And I want to get the straight scoop from you. I also. I brought this draft suit because I want to go over that with you because there are some points that, well, I have a little concern about some of those. About how we’re going to handle that. If we were to go ahead and bring that how it would actually come out. But, at certain, at certain times we really need to, to ah, get the real scene, what’s really going on. So, I’m gonna, I have a comm line to the rest of the guys. Joey doesn’t have that. So, I can be a more direct relay point, because this has been going on now for some time.

G There’s a lot of things that I’d like to work out. Which I think will make things a lot easier. First of all the complaint itself that’s not set in concrete, you know …

M No, no, I understand.

G And, a lot of issues keep coming up which kind of broaden the whole thing as far as I’m concerned. Ah, last time I met with Joey it was just the girl. And ah, at that point I was basically given the go ahead to locate an attorney. I don’t know if you guys have an attorney, I don’t know what the status of that is. However, when apparently the money fell through or whatever happened, I did not have a named three attorneys and I’d be willing to do that, but that’s kind of the last thing I was left with.

M Right.

G My understanding is that it’s sort of up in the air, the whole thing. And that’s OK. I don’t have any compulsion to do any of it, you know. My opinion of the organization is that it’s in a state of transformation. It has to be altered and it is altering itself and it will continue. We happen to be in a situation right now where something good could come out of it. That’s philosophically where I stand on it; I don’t want to continue on a legal battle with anyone…

M Well, that’s exactly what our position is on that. I mean


That is really the common interest that we have with you.

G Everyone has … you know, as an aside, that viewpoint is being assumed on the outside in great numbers. People are suddenly beginning to realize that the thing, something is happening and a transformation has to take place. So what does everyone do in a situation like that.

M Right.

G But it is being picked up on outside. I had a call this morning from Martin Samuels. I had a call a few days ago from Bent Corydon, all of them are kind of moving away from … well, we’re just going to proceed with our law suits kind of a viewpoint, to the position that something is happening and something can be done. So, what do Scientologists as a body want their organization to become. That’s kind of the real …

M Right

G People are in a very unique position. It never happened before in the history of the organization, although in a sense, the Miscavige takeover was similar.

M Yeah, similar. We’ve just got to get some people into positions that are more akin to the position that he was in when he actually managed to pull that off…

G I don’t … (mumble) … I really… well I can…

M Well, I don’t know …

G It seems like he’s very firmly entrenched, but the degree of his entrenchment could be his demise.

M That’s very true, I mean that to some degree is the basic premise for the suit…

G Hm…

M You know, that entrenchment and the control over the organization is sort of what this is shooting for.

G Right. You… Are you familiar with the whole legal scene… you’re legally…

M Yeah, I’m pretty familiar with the legal scene.

G OK. I have some questions.

M Yeah.

G I understand you have a couple of Board members. CSC. At least people… I don’t know if they’re your people, but at least people who think similarly. How many Board Members are there in CSC.

M Well, there is a President and then there is the Secretary, Treasurer, and a Dep … you know, an Assistant Treasurer, and then there are, I believe there are voting members as well.

G Oh, really.

M Yeah.

G If … for a board minute to be an actual board minute, how many signatures does it need?

M You know, I actually don’t know that, but I …


G Could you find that out?

M Yeah. I could find that out.

G The reason I ask is simply because, you know, all these legal concepts come to me, and I’d really like to talk to an attorney, you know, on your behalf or whatever, because I think it’s our … because the situation is so unique that the legal possibilities are enormous. For example, the Board could simply vote to retain new counsel. And you know the way Board Minutes circulate inside the organization.

M Right

G They just type one up and everyone signs it, and then you’ve got a Board minute.

M You mean just get someone to, ah, …

G Well, … the Board … CSC Board are under the control of somebody else, obviously.

M Yeah, there under control of CSI, to some degree because there is some agreement that exists between CSI and all the other Churches.

G Yeah, but what’s that agreement. What is that agreement.

M Well, it’s something in the area of an agreement to, ah, well, it’s like…you know this licensing agreement that exists between RTC and then CSI?

G Yep. (While M is saying the above).

M And I believe it goes down from CSI, down to the other churches, … licensing agreement on the basis of good usage of the technology. They are allowed to continue …

G CSC, a couple of years ago was the whole thing.

M Right.

G CSC now is a relatively miniscule part of the whole thing. They probably lost SOR. Am I correct?

M Well, it’s not, … well CSC is not that miniscule, because it still includes like AOLA, ASHO, LA org and those things…

G Oh yeah, in fact you have operating orgs …

M Right.

G You see I don’t know the form this thing is going to take, but we don’t have to get stuck on the one complaint. I think it’s a brilliant complaint. I think you guys are in a position where you can make it happen.

M Right.

G In addition to that, there’s also the concept that what if CSC suddenly said, we’re CSC, we’re getting new attorneys, we’re firing our old attorneys, and not only that but we’re going to sue them, because they fucked us over and they made us divest all this shit, which we didn’t want to. And we’re demanding SOR back, and we’re demanding all organizations back. We’re the mother church. So, fuck you guys. You know, there’s that kind of a thing which could be done from simply a part. You don’t have to be the whole body of Scientology. You could do it corporately. And take for example the agreement you have with, ah, the CSI. That agreement certainly can be rescinded. Not only that, but you could find out the conditions under which the agreement was made,


who signed the damn thing and did they have any choice? They were the … they were the … There had to be a Board at the time.

M Right.

G The Board at the time had to have signed an agreement. Then they were all removed or kicked out or … got dismembered or whatever. But those people signed some sort of agreement, and if you could simply find out from them, ah, well we were told sign or we were dead, sign or you’re kicked out? By who? Who can tell the Board, sign something? I mean you’ve got the …it’s an open and shut case. There are so many of those possibilities… if you get in Remember the note I sent along with Joey a while ago? Kind of [ ] what happened during that transition from the, you know, the CSC and the CSC’s kind of a front for the whole thing. Hubbard controlled through CSC for so many years. Correct?

M Well, then you get into the legalities of what is control. I mean, that’s what’s being litigated right now, to a large extent.

G That’s a whole different subject, you see, cos you people are in fact the organization.

M Right. Provided there’re enough of us. That’s one of the concerns I had about this. I actually we have a line to an attorney, and I had this suit, had him look at it, and this is not on the basis of taking it on or anything, but just to give us a little advice on it. And like one of the questions is what would be the standing of the plaintiff in the first place. You know. like to say that we’re going to get together twenty people and say this is now the Church, and you know, this is CSC, or CSI or whatever, is like … there’s three, four, five hundred people in CSI and maybe eight hundred people in CSC and I don’t think … that could turn out to be a real weak point in that.

G Yes, but they can’t kick you out of the organ … they can’t kick you out. You see. if you see I’m … I’m it, I’m just as much a part of it as you are. I mean not to say that you’re it and they’re not. But I can’t say that I’m the Church of Scientology. I made that choice when I walked out the door. You guys haven’t walked out. So you’re in a completely different position.

M Yeah, but what, you know, see the liability in this … the real liability in this suit to us, is that it puts us out into the open. Now obviously at some point we’re going to have to go out into the open. But there’s a liability to it in that unless this is strong enough to make it without crumbling under the first challenge we’re fucking dead man. I mean, we’re just dead. I mean the first thing that will happen if we bring this suit is that we’ll all just get declared. Everybody who’s name is on there as a plaintiff will just instantly get declared and expelled. Then we …

G That’s the whole thing… that’s the … That’s where we get into, sorry, we’re not moving.

M Well, as a rule, then it becomes like a PR battle.

G It is a PR battle, which is why I mentioned in the last note. I hope you guys get these things …

M Well, that’s one of the things. I don’t know if everything that you have said has been relayed correctly, everything … so …

G I am only a relay point in this thing. However, I do make


it my purpose to create as much shit as possible. You know, hence I have …

M Shit for the organization?

G Yeah, I … whatever I do … cos I have no … I’m not hooked into anything. Anyway, I mentioned that … PR … you know there are many PR aspects to it and the PR thing can be so well done that, you know, Scientologists, because they’ve had it drilled into them, you know, tend to believe, they’re believers.

M Right.

G If you … if you … anyway, that’s why I mentioned get off policy actions. Anything. Any little details that you can find that the top has done off old accepted policy. They’re doing a lot of it now, you know, hidden data lines. Use of PIs. you know. anything you can find. Then you’ve got the organization behind you, because they’re off policy. And include it in the law suit, include it that they’re not, they’re not doing what is best for Scientology because they’re violating the existing policies, they’re operating autonomously, and they’re not operating for the best good of the group. There are a lot of those things that have to be worked out to make the complaint very strong, and you know, no-one has any idea if the thing will be pulled off, no-one. You know, you can’t tell, you can’t tell five seconds from now what’s going to happen, and to have to have a sure thing, well we can wait till the cows come home, you know.

M Yeah. I got that point.

G It’s going to take a (inaudible) it’s going to take some asshole to stand up and say we’ve had enough of this shit. You know. it’s going to take that.

M They’re going to have to be in a strong enough position prior to that to be able to stand up and get anybody to hear then. Do you see what I’m saying … it’s like …

G Do you have anyone like that … see …

M Well, there’s …

G You know there’s two different positions. One is the public relations position and the other is the organizational position. You may not be in an organizational position, but what kind of a position are the people going to be in if a whole shitload of then are indicted?

M Well …

G Cos, they’re not going to have a lot of …

M That’s the thing, that’s kind of how that ties into this, because that would weaken those people who are in those positions right now, that have that authority to call a meeting of all staff in Lebanon Hall and stand up and say, listen, there’s a bunch of assholes around here that …

G You guys have the same possibility.

M Yeah, it’s a possibility.

G you know, it could just, it could just be done. The whole … you know … take … if you guys concentrated only on the CSC … on the blue building. And divide the damn thing up and just, you know, the day that the thing happens. You know, the day that you file your complaint, then just call everyone and say that there’s a meeting. I don’t know the


Positions of your people, or if they are in positions of strength, if they’re accepted in the organization, or if they’re all dishwasher. I have no data.

M Well, they’re not all dishwashers.

G Obviously. But they’re somewhere in between. They’re obviously not in ASI.

M Right.

G But they’re …

M That’s not the organization, anyway…

G Right. But not only that. but you’re going to get people on your side. How about if one of these days your … let’s say at a given hour, a bunch of people were to pitch up on the doorstep.

M Where?

G Wherever you wanted then. Suddenly you’ve got numbers. Suddenly you’ve got a lot of people crowding into Lebanon Hall to hear lectures. To hear talks, to hear an announcement and you may have numbers on your side.

M Right.

G Some of these … there are a lot … There are a lot of people on the outside, and potentially the whole thing could be orchestrated, it could all be divided up into cells and it could all be brought to one place at a given instant.

M Right.

G It can be one during the chaos of whatever RTC, ASI’s got going. Who runs the organization right now?

M Which organization?

G All of it. Who runs it?

M Well, it gets run through CMO Int.

G And who are those people.

M Well, you know, probably the same guys as when you were around.

G A lot of them are gone.

M Yeah, quite a number of them are.

Stranger asks for time.

M Sure. It’s 12.35.

M Yeah, that’s true, that’s true. I tell you. I’m going to be totally honest with you, Gerry. I can see some potential in this suit, and it’s actually, one thing that I now see is the usefulness of talking to someone that’s not stuck into it. Cos you get a …whole exterior kind of look at things which I tend to … I tend to self doubt a little, you know, on how far we can go.

G Yeah. that’s the way the mind works.

M Right, and you know, I’m doubtful of my position, too. You know what I mean like.

G What do you mean?


M Well, like I have my life as a Scientologist, because, because I am still a Scientologist. That’s not, I don’t want to change that.

G Ok. I understand. I don’t see how that alters it in any way.

M Well, that just puts me into a little different position from you.

G Of course.

M Because, that is the threat of loss to me, and to the other people…

G Right.

M …that I’m involved with. That’s our threat of loss, and that becomes… see there’s like…the ecclesiastical line, then there’s the legal secular line and our threat of loss…you see, they have to go sort of hand in hand.

G Which brings us to another subject. Which…you have to make a very clear differentiation between those two things because they are absolutely different. The organization tends to lump them all together so they can get away with their abuses and call them ecclesiastical rights or whatever. You know, like the hiring of PIs – oh that’s just church doctrine. Bullshit. You know, you guys have to make a distinction and get it real straight on what the fuck is the organization and what the fuck is worth saving.

M Right. I understand that.

G That has to be part of the lawsuit.

M Right.

G Because they’ve twisted it and perverted it to the point where your organization stands a good chance of being smacked down so fucking hard it will never rise again. Because people are going to get real pissed off, because people are real pissed off and they’re going to get pissed off, and PIs are going to step out of line and somebody’s going to get killed and that will be tits up for Scientology as you’ve ever known it. It’s going to come across as nothing better than fucking terrorism, which is basically what it is right now. You guys are terrorized you can’t work out of the organization. Fucking frisked and TV monitors and all, come on, fucking terrorist group, that’s all it is. Somebody has to stand up and say enough of this bull shit, because sooner or later somebody is going to get hurt. You know you’ve got Federal agencies just about to bring the hammer down. You guys are assaulted from every quarter with law suits and they all could be bought off, they could all be bought off for – you known for 5 cents on the dollar. But ..

M Right.

G But no, it happens to be in the hands of a very few paranoid individuals and they should be smacked down.

M Well, I’m a little paranoid, too. If you know what I mean.

G You’re not paranoid, your, you have a justifiable fear. I recognize that. It creates fear, what the fuck kind of a Church is it, come on. Jesus, it’s[,] it’s so ludicrous to anyone on the outside. What kind of fear, you know, an organization is it that, that just creates this incredible fear inside everyone in there. There fucking scared to death.


G And [they’re, they’re] so suppressed that that they haven’t got a clue about the way the world really is out here. Not that I do either you know. I’m saying I have a handle on anything. But I tell you something is going to happen in that organization sooner or later, whether or not it’s you guys or whether or not it’s some wacko, whether or not you know, somebody takes a shot at someone. I don’t know.

M Right.

G But I think that you are in a position where something could be done, and if you, if they really are dedicated to saving of Scientology, save Scientology don’t save the shit that’s going on now. Because Scientology surely the fuck is not that.

M Right.

G Its not. you know….

M That’s true, you know, I like, I was starting to say a minute ago, you know. I am going to be totally [f]rank with you. This law suit and doing this. I have some concern that we are being set up.

G I have a concern that I am being set up. Every time I talk to you guys I have the same concern. But I kind of think, fuck, what’s going to happen, you know, what’s going to happen. What if you guys are setting me up, just go to court sometime later. You know that’s how the courts are viewing all this shit now. Entrapment set ups, lies, they are catching a beating everywhere they go. Because nobody believes Scientology any more, no one, you talk about Scientology out there, bull shit, unbelieve and no creditability. And they’ve got no creditability because they are a terrorist organization. They can’t trust a terrorist, never believe them, we should, you should have a lot of concerns about it. Frankly I don’t think it matters a damn. It really honestly doesn’t matter a damn if you guys file it or not, or if you do anything, or if you all go, go back and just continue on. None of that matters.

M It does matter.

G There you get into some deep philosophical questions which I don’t think can be answered at this time. But I’m saying that doesn’t matter. I think it would be real fucking exciting I think that you guys sit in a situation where fuck, you sure can get out of the boredom of Scientology for a couple of days. Isn’t it a boring thing?

M I don’t think it’s a boring thing.

G Bull Shit, it’s fucking boring. Jesus. if Scientology wasn’t so fucking,  I mean not really the, you know, the Scientology but, the Sea Org thing you know, everyone in there was just any news, the least fucking news, adrenalin addicts, got to have the latest skinny and the news. I, I don’t. I don’t think it matters, it would be great, I think it would be real exciting and, and in a sense I wish I was there. Because that, Jesus Christ…


(From 30 minutes into tape)

G I think it’s just fucking, it’s exciting, and a, you guys could be in a position of doing a great deal of good. But you know the World is not going to be a fucking bit different.

M But my world will be.

G In a sense. In a sense. I mean your world is whatever you make it.

M Well ya, but my world revolves around Scientology. I mean that’s the way I am and that’s the way I am going to stay. And you know you start talking about, well it’s going to be wiped out and reck reack… and you know that’s not something that I want. And we keep getting stuff back from Joey, you say, you know you, the government is going to be coming down and all this sort of shit, and it’s like, you know I don’t know, I don’t know what is going to happen with that stuff.

G You know I don’t know either. But what I do know is that the thing cannot remain status quo, it cannot, and it won’t. I don’t how, I don’t know what is going to happen. No one does and that’s why the fact that we don’t know what’s going to happen puts in a in a position of being able to do something. Because we are not hooked into the way it is.

M But what can we do to make something happen?

G You guys, can do basically whatever you want.

M But we’ve got to survive that first. Whatever we do we gotta survive.

G You’ll survive. There’s no doubt of that. Whether or not it turns out the way you hoped, [who] knows. I mean I, who has any expectations. You know the only thing you get when you get an expectation is an upset, because no expectation ever happens. You know no girl you ever went out with ended up exactly the way you though she was in the beginning. That’s the whole thing about expectations. And when you kind of move away from expectations. then what ever happens you can live with.

M Right. Well we have an expectation, regardless of anything else, we have an expectation that isn’t going to go away. Is that we will actually be able to be Scientologist. We have no interest in that.

You guys have more hope of being Scientologist if you do this. If you stand up and say I am a Scientologist, and I don’t want the frigging organization to become this kind of, this kind of a paranoid operation. That’s silly, and to think that there are government agencies against you is also a lot of bull shit. I have probably talked to 20 or 30 people in various places in government in the last couple of years. I have not found one who had any problem with Scientology, any vendetta, any desire to stop Scientology or any desire to hurt any Scientologist. Not one. That’s the lie that is perpetrated on the inside.

M I’ve seen some stuff that says other wise to that.

G What?

M I saw. I saw this transcript of a meeting, you know one of bugged meetings that they fucking did back in ‘74.

G Ya.

M I saw the fucking transcript of a meeting between some guys in the IRS. That guy Rumph, Todesco I think. I think that’s what their names were. And that. I’ll tell you Gerry, that


G What exactly did they want to wipe out?

M Well, the basic thing was something on the order of (inaudible).

G Check. That’s the way it is.

M But is that what they’re doing? What else (inaudible).

G The IRS want to handle the same things you guys want to handle.

M I don’t understand what their motive is for that. I don’t understand exactly why … what … (inaudible).

G That’s true, however, if there is an illegal charitable corporation, and it is used for illegal means (inaudible). And not only that (inaudible) how many people have been hurt. (inaudible) a charitable organization. There’s no charity in Scientology. Scientology corporations (inaudible)… for the fear of a very small group at the top. (Inaudible)… want a great deal of power…(inaudible) keeping that power. (inaudible) again these people haven’t said … after Miscavige and after Hubbard. And it should be. Hubbard rips off a lot of people. Fucking obvious. while he was telling us he doesn’t make any money, he’s been making millions. (Inaudible) … while all the time he’s been lying about his (inaudible). It’s bullshit.

M OK. OK. yeah…

G That’s the way it is …

M OK. but …

G The guy got greedy. He had brilliant ideas, but he got greedy …

M Alright. Thank you. From our viewpoint. attacks. … I don’t see … my personal view is that that’s not the target for us. Very much not. If anyone’s going to continue being a Scientologist then he’s got to remain there and be the key forthright figurehead that’s talked about in Essay on Management. You know and …

G (inaudible)… you guys can have that viewpoint about him. I don’t have any problems. no problem about it. But I do have a great deal of difficulty with the fact that people’s lives are being fucked around. I think that no corporation should have more rights than the individual. And many organizations, essentially like Scientology, tend to hide behind a veil of religiosity. Scientology, in my opinion, is the greatest threat to the freedom of religion in the United States of anything else. I heard all this bullshit about Flynn and Clark and these anti-religious … Flynn’s probably one of the most religious people I have ever met.

Stranger comes into view and asks for a light. Mike gives him one.

G (inaudible) But that’s just where I stand on it. I sit out here and I see that things … things are coming out beautifully. (inaudible) … put up with that shit.

M Why?

G (inaudible) Fucking saying I’m a big shit (?) I mean. Jesus Christ (inaudible) blame them, man. Come on? After a while (what?) the fuck is he doing? where the fuck is he? (Inaudible) … IRS. How could they possibly know what the false reports are, because probably Scientology (inaudible). It’s fucking sick.


well. it’s just like, well, Ron says its true- Jesus Christ. You’re more important to yourself than L Ron Hubbard is to you. (inaudible) All the world’s secrets are within you. To think that it’s out there in some other guy’s (inaudible). You guys are all big and strong (inaudible) better than he is.

M Right …

G That’s just …

M Well, I don’t want to get into a philosophical argument about … you know … what I think about Scientology …

G One thing you have to realize is that nobody, but nobody, wants to stop anyone from practicing Scientology. Other than Scientologists. They want Scientology to be destroyed. You look at what they try to do (inaudible)to the point where today it’s all been copyrighted. (Inaudible). Because you know it can’t claim  to be a religion now. You can’t say that I’ve got (inaudible).

M Do you know how you’re going to … you know … argue that point?

G Oh yeah, because there’re going to be more Scientologists present from the outside than from the inside. You know, a considerable number of them. (Inaudible) and I don’t have any stake in it. You know, no-one (inaudible) out here is dedicated to doing then in, there may be a few guys in the organization, but I haven’t met anyone out here.

M No, well, this point… it’s all getting a bit nebulous about where to go, what to do. That sort of caliber …

G It is nebulous, you can’t ah, (inaudible).

M They do

G You do, but…

M I don’t know.

G I don’t know either. It’s sort of in a sense, kind of like, you’re in a position (inaudible). I mean what label you call yourself means fuck-all. I could talk to anybody (inaudible) just like I’m talking to you. I don’t have anything against Scientology. And that’s because (inaudible). That’s sort of the idea I’ve got – the old org is taken over by a new one inside. And then maybe they will open the doors. (The above was quite inaudible, and so is probably not accurate.) They can start to do something decent. You know. not this (inaudible).

M Right, well it all comes back to, like, the same basic problem that we’re always confronted with of there is something that needs to be changed, there is no question about that. That’s why we are here.

G Right.

M Cos there are things that have got to be changed. We have, from our viewpoint, watched Scientology become unrecognizable to us as we know and believe it should be. You see what I mean?

G (Inaudible) you guys. No-one in there (inaudible) what it will be. No-one, no-one. No-one really cares. (Inaudible) personal choice (inaudible). I simply want all the goddam lawsuits that are going on all over the world, to end. So I can get the fuck out of this. This game…

M Inaudible.


G Inaudible. You know for better or worse I fucking uncovered it. I got the stack of documents and I uncovered the fraud.

M Inaudible.

G (Inaudible) …time to say (Inaudible). (Quite a long monologue, but inaudible.)

M How do we handle that?

G Well, in my opinion, the first thing in the sequence (rest inaudible).

M You mean (inaudible). Both 35, yeah.

G So (inaudible) great deal of mobility, but perhaps there are people who operate under the (inaudible) of generosity.

M Ok.

G But some of them have an ability.

M Yeah

G Aside from the last bit, let’s just put the last bit aside, and let’s go to the concept of (inaudible.)

M But that’s not (inaudible). There is no (inaudible) inside. Like when you start talking about indicting 15 or 20 or however number of people from Canada, that has a, that has a real effect on me (inaudible).

G Yeah, but you have virtually no control over (inaudible) up the ladder.

M I understand, but until they go no—one (inaudible) no-one’s going to move up the ladder.

G I understand, but what can be done? (Mumble).

M OK, carry on, carry on.

G What do you imagine could be done?

M Well, you see, this thing about this law suit. I have this …

G Aside from the law suit (inaudible). Do you have any potential (inaudible). How do you see me?

M How do I see you? Well, to some extent I see you as — I see you in two lights. One is this. I feel you have real or particularly have real (inaudible). You have (inaudible). You have a lot of data on what’s going on,  what people finished what, what the general tone is, outside the org – this is important to us. You know (inaudible) I also see you as someone with whom we can communicate on the outside via you. (Then on the other hand I have my (inaudible) paranoia stuff where I wonder whether you’re not just setting us up. You know — come into the law suit. (inaudible) a law suit which we can’t substantiate. for the purpose of simply disrupting everybody to get their attention off the other suit. You know …

G I never conceived of such a thing. but …

M Well, you see I don’t know. Gerry. You say you never conceived of such a thing. To me that’s not an unreal sort of thing (inaudible). You know what I mean?

G Oh, yeah. Granted, it never entered my mind, and I can’t see exactly how it would happen, but …


M Or, maybe it’s not even you that’s doing it. or you’re doing it unwillingly, you know what I mean? I don’t know … Like (inaudible) communicate through, and it could be a completely unwilling thing. You could have the view, yeah, this is a way I could really help these guys and blah, blah, blah. Someone else could be figuring out how you’re giving them (inaudible) help is actually going to result in this head on fuck up within the organization. And this could be very beneficial, to someone who had that viewpoint. You know what I mean?

G Inaudible. (You should capitalize on it?)

M Yeah, but we can only capitalize on it, if out of the ensuing chaos we come out on top. we cannot capitalize if we are sacrificed to create that chaos. Sacrificial lambs. I don’t want to be left hanging on a cross somewhere … “

G Nods

M having gone ahead with some idea that Gerry Armstrong came up with, you know, it sounded all great, and then a few months down the line, I find I’m declared. I now have a fucking suit against me. da da da da dada.

G That’s the downside. That is fucking downside in meeting, in me meeting with you. You know, a guy drives by and Bing.

M Right.

G And then you get the security wrap, and you’re declared and … You know. there’s downsides in everything.

M Yeah, but that’s… that has a very much reduced possibility, as long as I’m careful about what I do. You see what I mean?

G Yeah

M You see I can control a little bit more, I can control something else than someone didn’t (inaudible). You asked me how I feel, well that’s how I feel. I realize, saying that, saying that to you that’s like a real downside just saying it to you. I mean I could sit here and say (inaudible) and rack, rack, rack. I realize I’m in a fucked position. I’ve got more probably to lose out of this lawsuit than you do. For myself. Maybe not legally Maybe not …. The things that I hold as important to me … there is more threat of loss to me right now than there it to you. (inaudible) … legal. You know what I mean?

G Yeah, could be. You know, I don’t know (inaudible).

M Yeah, well, you know. You set yourself up in this position … I mean what happens if something goes (inaudible).

G So, you see, anything other than the possibility, that is aside from the law suit and the appealing of that. I mean there isn’t anything (inaudible) You guys (inaudible). The thing about (inaudible) … there isn’t a lot going on … there isn’t a lot being covered up, you know what I mean. So, you guys, there isn’t a great deal of intelligence, with the flow from my direction towards you people. I can let you in on what I know from the Canadians. But (inaudible) otherwise your ass is going to be (inaudible).

M Wait a minute, from what we understood from Joey you had some sort of a line in, whereby you were kept informed of


that sort of thing. Cos he was coming back and saying, hey Gerry’s going to … and indictments are going to come down on rack rack. And we get this information back on our lines. That is valuable data.

G I understand

M (inaudible).

G Exactly (inaudible) an open communication line. But anyone could call up Michael Flynn and ask him how‘s it going, even though he does tell me probably a lot more than he would tell somebody else. But it’s not going to be anything that he’s going to (inaudible). You see if you want to get passed some very detailed organization information, which could greatly assist. In other words, the creation of a network which is not only within the organization, but is also outside. (Inaudible – vehicles passing in background).

M How would you do that?

G I have mobility and I have a lot pf people out there. I don’t know what the capabilities are like inside. I’ve often asked questions and I’ve not got answers to a lot of certain things. so I don’t know …

M Ask me, ask me again. I should tell you one thing. Everybody knows what’s going on (?) (Inaudible) The security force.

G Who.

M I don’t know the guys enough, but I know it’s the security force.

G Inaudible.

M Yeah, but they have two cars. They have two blue (inaudible) with white tops. and they drive around in these.

G Right. I (inaudible).(asked for the license plate?)

M You may have. I don’t know …

G Yeah. I (inaudible).

M Oh. we can get that data easy.

G But you see, I asked that the same day …

M Yes, you see that’s why …

G Exactly. Now we’re talking.

M We can get that data for you easy.

G OK. do you have my list of pay phone numbers. Did you get it?

M Joey’s  still got it. I can get it from him.

G OK, fine. If you guys can arrange an address.

M Yeah.

G Some place that mail can be sent to.

M We can set up a PO Box.

G Good.


M That’s no problem. I mean, what’s the problem in setting up a PO Box.

G No problem.

M OK, I didn’t know you needed that.

G OK, here’s what I’d like to do. Let’s put aside … oh, the other thing … the other thing is attorneys, do you want me to do anything with attorneys? Does somebody have any money?

M Well, we don’t have enough money right now, to be able to … I don’t think any attorney would take this on on contingency (?).

G We’re not talking about contingency (?) It doesn’t have to happen for two or three months out there (inaudible).

M Right, that’s my concern. A protracted thing, or something that gets into all the fucking motions to dismiss, and this and that and rack rack. I don’t think we’d survive that. That was the point (inaudible). It’s gotta be like a …

G (inaudible) make a not[e] of it. We have to add into the complaint the threat that you people will feel  will happen to you when you bring this lawsuit. (and you can (inaudible) with affidavits on whatever happened to anyone who has opposed or fought … For example Franks (inaudible), Homer Schomer (inaudible). I don’t know all the details…

M Those affis already exist though.

G Yeah, but you’ve got to get new affis. You can’t just photocopy them from all from some other lawsuit. But …

M Why?

G Well, because your … you’ve got a brand new complaint, and you’ll need new affidavits and signed. You do. It can’t just be a stack of old documents.

M OK. Well, I’ll take your word on that. I don’t really know. I don’t fully understand. I understand that something that was admitted evidence or was a taken affidavit by a court reporter or whatever would have been admissible evidence in another suit.

G That’s true, and if you guys can get a hold of it and say, that’s what happened in this situation, but that’s not an affidavit unless the complaint is filed. That’s supporting documentation.

M Right, I understand.

G Use your legal mind. If you have a legal mind above yourself. Some who’s …

M A little more au fe than I am with it.


M I’m not like completely …

G No, you sound fine, and I’m not, and I’m no attorney. OK?

M Good.

G Um, also looking at … if we consider L. Ron Hubbard in the law suit (?) (Inaudible). You know, violations of Scientology policy. And the reason for that is not so that … not so much as to affect the courts…although you


can in that way show that they are not legitimate leaders, because they are violating their own policy. But you want to (inaudible) the actual (inaudible).

M With the actual complaint itself.

G With the complaint.

M Right.

G In the complaint and then on supporting affidavits.

M Right. Because that then comes out in the press. And that becomes the substance of…

G That becomes the substance as far as the people inside are concerned, because that’s what they go for. Oh, they’re all off policy, oh.

M Yeah. I get it, I get it, I get it. I mean we can get that into the press. In fact that could be the angle that is run like PR Media wise. You know what I mean?

G PR Media is one thing. but there’s like your own group.

M Yeah, that’s what I mean by PR – inside PR stuff. That would be the way that would run.

G Right. Make a note of that. I want to add that (inaudible).

M (inaudible) Everyone fucking knows about this (?)

G I need a phone number, I need some way, because if I don’t have, if I don’t have our common friend, Danny, I have no means of contacting anyone, and I am essentially out here alone.

M Yeah, I’m a bit wary of the phone number, because the phone has got to be some sort of pay phone. But then …

G Yeah, but then … well I have a list of pay phone numbers (inaudible) call one and then call the other one. I told Joey that the other day.

M Right.

G But I want a whole damn apparatus worked out. Otherwise … you know, we don’t have enough capabilities. It’s too, it’s too damn cumbersome, and it’s also unworkable for me to always drive up here and to always meet in these kinds of environment.

M Right. I agree. (inaudible). You know my only hesitation on that? There may not be a way out, without creating undue concern about my not being there.

G You need to work out those sorts of situations. You need to work out a number of things so that people can get out (?) I can help you with that. I got (inaudible) … freaks out over PTS A situations and PR flaps, you can just use them. You know. your cousin is just in town and …

M Right.

G … he knows you live here somewhere, so you’d better go see him. His mother is anti-Scientology, so you’ve gotta go handle him.

M I understand. I understand.

G That way, we can continue to spring some people from


out of the organization if necessary. Also, we’ve got an address (inaudible). I’d like a phone number, a longer list of pay phones, vary them around…

M That’s good.

G Um, what do you guys want right now, what can I do? Let’s, let’s put the law suit aside. If you go through with the law suit, do you want me to talk to an attorney?

M Is that all right for you? The other thing is …

G And drop the girl(?)

M Well, you see, we’re still trying to get a hold of her.

G I see.

M We haven’t been able to reach her yet.


M And frankly, I don’t know what to say other than we haven’t been able to get a hold of her. Danny’s been trying to get hold of her too. … still trying… What do we want from you?

G Yes.

M Oh, I think … from my viewpoint … I think I told you before … you are doing something right now. Just sitting here now gives me a different view. That is important. It is important.

G Yeah, damn right it is.

M Well, that’s something of value to me.

G (inaudible)

M Right

G That’s what’s needed, in my opinion that’s what’s needed with the organization. Which has the power to fuck everyone (?) I wish you could talk to Flynn. It’s unfortunate that he’s (inaudible).

M With regard to him?

G With regard to you guys.

M Oh, with regards to us if we brought a suit after discussions with him.

G Well, he’ll talk to anyone, there’s no problem on that, yeah, as far as people inside the organization. The reason is, that simply is the way attorneys work. You’ve got the client, you know, you’re the client of a bunch of attorneys. You’re CSC or CS1 or wherever you are. The client can’t go to the opposing side. I can. I can go, but they cannot talk. I can’t go to Barry Litt. He cannot talk to me. (inaudible) … Peterson.

M Right. I see. So. it has (inaudible). … would be the opposition. Did he draft this thing?

G Who, Mike?


M Yeah.

G (laughs) How did you ever get that idea?

M Well that’s what, that’s what- I never thought anything else.

G Oh. It’s one of my many attorneys. Have you got any cigarettes left? I – I really don’t smoke.

M Ah, not going to be too much longer.

G Ahm, but anyway, it is good that everyone talks. That’s the way I see a difference between the current scientology organization and a future scientology organization, is that the organization and it’s members are not afraid to talk to anyone.

M Right.

G And there’s no more of this, you know you talk to him, you can’t talk to (inaudible – sounds like ‘enemies’). That’s, that’s absolutely non-productive. Don’t you agree? I mean, you know, it makes people shrink to the point where well this guy’s a bad guy. Fuck, if you can talk to all the bad guys you, you’re a big being.

M So, I want to ask you a question. Why did you no answer that question about who drafted the suit?

G Do you think I should answer it?

M I don’t know. If you don’t want to answer it, that’s fine.

G You know why?

M Why?

G Because, if it’s shown (pause) someone did it for me for a favor. That’s the only thing. Simply because the organization will construe it as a violation of their civil rights. You know their on a civil right kick right now? Which has gotta hurt them. ‘Cause they’re the, you know it’s already been judicially stated that they’re the civil right violators. And they violate their parishioners’ civil rights. But, that’s why, just so that whoever did the favor is not going to be hurt.

M I dig.

G You know what if your- what if you walk back into the organization and they say, ‘what have you got?’ and they pull that out and they say, well ‘what the fuck is this?’

M I don’t take this shit back there.

G Good. Anyway so that’s just so that you can answer the question-

M OK, that’s fine.

G -it really doesn’t matter, does it. I mean the thing is what it is. Right now I will not pursue this, anything to do with trying to find you guys an attorney. I gather that the one attorney is not all that, hopeful.

M No, well he, he expressed concern, he said that the, the causes of action were the correct causes of action, but that the factual allegations,

G Yeah –

M They gotta be, we’ve gotta check them out and make sure they’re factual allegations and like-

G That’s what Mike has been saying all along, I mean, how much has the organization spent on PIs? How much have they spe-, how much has the organization paid Ingram?


M I don’t know.

G How much have they paid Peterson?

M I don’t know. I don’t know how much, I don’t know how much is being paid to Peterson.

G Are you able to get that kind of information?

M We may be able to, we may be able to get that. But see that, that gets into this question of is then that su- is that a suit that is gonna, is gonna win? Is that a suit that’s gonna, that’s gonna get us into a position where we actually come out on top-

G You can win-

M That stuff can be defensive. I mean (garbled) defense will be to that.

G We had to do it because we were being attacked.

M Yeah and it’s not, you know, it’s not illegal and uh da-da-do so I see-

G All you need is enough-

M I see that as being a very, a very, uh, it’s a grey area and it would depend a lot on the, the public opinion that was generated surrounding that, do you know what I mean?

G Well there’s two things- did you get, did you get-

M It’s a legally (inaudible)

G Did you get my, my note which explained that you can proceed, you can make an issue of corporate control without alleging anything… but-

M I don’t –

G But –

M I don’t follow that Gerry.

G Well, there are hundreds of lawsuits: that’s standardly what lawsuits are, you know, a lotta times a … lawsuits have that form. It is simply a disagreement over who has control of corporate funds. That is, that is simply the issue. They don’t allege that there was any criminal misconduct or illegal use of the funds for anything.

M But this is alleging that there’s criminal misconduct.

G That’s right and the reason for that is because with that, if you can get any of those things. then. yo- then the court can act immediately to freeze  the accounts.

M So, unless we have criminal stuff in here there is n-, uh, there isn’t really any basis for-

G It isn’t criminal stuff necessarily. Do you have information on th-, on the uh, on the, the boat in Clearwater, the boat in the-

M I know about the cycle. I mean I know of it.


G It happened, right? They paid a lot of money.


M Yeah but see like this says that that there was a scheme to compromise with drugs and prostitutes and you know …


G So, so there wasn’t. But there at least was a, there at least was a boat, and was there uhm, was there a closed circuit TV camera? Were they videoed?


M I don’t know. I presume so. I mean if, if that was the purpose of setting it up I guess that’s what was left. You know what I mean?

G Just to get into that – if you know that, that, that, that, took place, see you have to realize the way things are on, on the outside. You know, that gets in to, that gets in to ah, you know entrapment-

M That’s not a smart move; it’s like bad, bad business for the (inaudible word, sounds like ‘speak’).

G Not only bad but when a church is doing it, it looks ludicrous.

M Right.

G You know even, you see, –

M But –

G All the things that the, you could say that all the things that the, you know that I was hassled by PIs for some time, …

M Yeah.

G Ok? You could say well hell, shit you can have PIs follow anyone. Except the way the, court looked at it was, if indeed these things are true, then perhaps this thing oughta be tried across the street in a criminal courts building. And that’s the viewpoint that you gotta have, these things are illegal, you can allege the illegalities, you can – I don’t know what people inside know about what Ingram has done or what – even the, even those affidavits, authored by the people up at uhm, uh, Mayo’s group.

M Oh yeah yeah, the, the –

G You know? These are operations by PIs to discredit someone. The whole thing of Flynn. That, that thing in itself is a goldmine for you guys. Just to simply say, you know the organization funds have been used to attack and discredit and intimidate and harass this one individual. That’s the kind of stuff. Organ- and, and what’s happened in the organization, you know, do you know of anything about the use of PC folders. I was called by someone I guess it was Joey, before I went to the UK, uhh, at the end of June. Something about, you know my PC folders are being moved somewhere. And there’s a possibility of getting- … someone in your group knew about it. Someone knew that PC folders were being moved around. Someone knew that, that the, someone has been involved in the last two years in going through PC folders. Right?

M Wh- why?

G Have they? Why were my PC folders moved?

M I don’t know why they were moved.

G Where were they coming from?

M (pause) They were coming from CW.

G What were they doing in CW? I was never in CW.

M Dunno.

G That’s the ki- where were they being-

M The be-

G Where were they going to?

M That’s real circumstantial stuff. But I-, regardless-

G Yeah, yeah but you, you get the idea. You know what if someone’s been (pause) was someone held, has anyone been held in the organization. You know what’s the situation in there? Do they


do they have guys who frisk people when they come in and out? It doesn’t happen.

M No.

G So you can get whatever out you want?

M Yeah. I can get out anything that I want. People aren’t frisked when they go in and out.

G Oh, I, I was told they were.

M Who by?

G Joey. I don’t know if it came from Joey or Danny but in any case they went through a very elaborate, very elaborate, uh, way you know of taping things to the bottoms of fucking trash cans to get them out of the organization.

M (laughing) Oh, god. Well they’re a little more-

G You follow me?

M into that sort of shit than I am. I mean. I. I can walk in and out with stuff. (pause) ‘Cause in fact what, you know, what is it that I walk in and what is-, I, I don’t totally follow where that, where that leads.

G Well where it leads is simply to, number one, what’s the atmosphere inside. You know in a, in a complaint, yo-, you’re gonna have to state the facts as you know them. I don’t know maybe there are no facts. Maybe the thing in Clearwater never happened and maybe, maybe Ingram doesn’t even work for the organization. I mean the fucker threatened to put a bullet between mv eyes.

M You shitting me?

G Did you guys get the tape? I sent-

M Incredible.

G -in the tape. See I don’t know. I think. fuck I’m probably being set up. This thing here is hotter than a pistol. Anything I send you guys.

M You mean this, this draft?

G Maybe you didn’t read a copy of it, of whatever I sent in so there’s probably a shitload of ‘em around.

M No. I have the only one.

G You have the only one?

M Yep.

G That’s not what I sent in.

M Which? This?

G Yeah.

M Huh-uh. This is the copy. The other one’s stored.

G How about the one that the girl had?

M We got it back.

G So th-, so there is at least two.

M Yeah.



M I know. I know exactly where they are.

G Good.

M There’s two copies and I know exactly where they are.

G Good. I-

M I mean listen, you know, we’ve survived this long –

G I know.

M It’s not like –

G I know (inaudible word) you guys –

M –not like you deal with complete –

G No not at all.

M – ignoramouses –

G In fact you know I’m in a more vulnerable position ‘cause I can be you know, I’m, I’m so visible, what if I dropped out of sight?

M (pause) Well, we’d lose you.

G Not necessarily.

M You mean we could set it up so that you just dropped out of sight –

G Exactly, you know it could be real beneficial. Maybe it can draw the organization into something.

M Like what?

G I don’t know. You know, do- do you have some old uh intelligence personnel in there?

M Yeah.

G Guys that think this stuff?

M Yeah.

G ‘Cause that’s kind of what I, what I see as uh, you know the intelligence possibilities are enormous. Because the organization is, is an intelligence operation. So it’s vulnerable. It exists on secrecy. Only certain things-, the need to know. So it’s vulnerable along those lines. An open society is not nearly as vulnerable. And it’s more open out here. You know what if they find out that, you know, – that there’s no real downside for me, but that they have, they’re vulnerable, and we’re not as vulnerable as they are. Now they-, they’re bigger because they got a lotta bucks. But I don’t see that that’s any problem in the long run. I mean your problems start when you get the bucks (chuckle, then full laugh).

M That’s very true. That’s very true. I mean that’s one of the things that we’ve gotta try and preclude because if we get into that position. We don’t want to be spending all our fucking money-

G Fighting more lawsuits.

M-handling fucking lawsuits –

G That’s right, you know. That has to be, see that’s not Scientology-

M You know, it’s like nuts. Right. It isn’t. You’re right. I mean that money-


G (inaudible) should (or shouldn’t) be spending its money on that, it can do something decent in the world. Something decent can come out of this. You know not just a lot of fat folders and sec checks and fucking broken families. That’s crazy. So, uh –

M So what if you dropped outa sight. I didn’t, I didn’t totally follow the, the progression there. What-

G I mean-

M What, what advantage would that be?

G It could possibly be a great deal of advantage. That I, I don’t know –

M I’m not, I’m not following that. I’m not – you mean we can maintain a comm line with you even though you were not as visible to everybody else in the organization?

G When someone drops out, it really excites people. You know what I mean?

M Like (could be ‘discipline’ or ‘disappear‘) where the fuck did Armstrong go, what the hell’s he doing now. and (fades) …

G Exactly! If that were to happen, then, then, ….

M But don’t you think that would just attract more attention to you and make it more difficult for us?

G I don’t. I don’t see why necessarily.

M OK. So, so what do you see in that?

G I don’t know everything that can be developed. But possibly, I see, I see the possibility of the removal of the PIs if they remove the PIs they’ve gotta set up their own informa-, their own internal information apparatus again.

M Uh-huhm.

G Right now you guys, it’s all done by the PIs. Who has the PI reports?

M They go to, they go to OSA INT.

G Where’s that?

M You mean what building? It’s above CMO PAC.

G Who’s in it?

M Who’s in OSA INT? I mean- I don’t kno-

G You got people in it?

M Possibly.

G Are they in a position where they can find out what’s going on?

M Not- not necessarily everything but ther- there’s definite lines.

G Are they in a position where they ca-, where they can get uhm, current strategy? Are they in a position where they can get PI reports? Are they in a position-

M Yeah we can probably, yeah.

G –where, can they find out who, who are the operating PIs currently? Can they do that?

M Yeah, probably.

G Because what if the operating PIs. what if someone can do some leg work and find out who the fuck they are and find out what the fuck they’ve done. Ingram is a rather unsavoury character. If you were to put together, and that in itself, if you were to put


together, you know a sheet on, on a, these people and let’s say you come up with some criminal pasts, lets say you come up with some real sleezy dealings, that in itself is a, is a tremendous PR leverage.

M Right.

G Now maybe you can’t, necessarily do all those things. Maybe CID can run a make on ‘em. CID asked for, you know, who took the photograph and give me the – get me a license number, I got a partial license number I couldn’t get the whole thing. 1DD or DD something. Couple ‘D’s in that one–

M Right.

G -plate. And I’d like to, I mean they can do it. They’ll run checks.

M What, now, on what basis will they do that sort of shit for us?

G I’m, a, well, anyone who talks to them is a witness.

M I, only, you know, I ain’t going to call no fucking CID and saying can you run make on this car.

G I can. I want a, I wanta know because I’m a witness. If I can, If I can get, get the guy, we can have his ass down there. I’ll subpoena the guy. That’s the kind of liaison where, you know, we can actually, you know, cause a lot of things to happen if there is that kind of detailed information going back and forth. If I know the name of the guy, we can issue a subpoena for him. Find. Find out what the fuck he was, he was doing there, on what bases he was photographing me, and it will back the fuckers off.

M And you feel like it would be best for you to drop out of sight in order to pull that sort of stuff off?

G No, not necessarily. I just see that, I know that that excites the organization when they can’t find somebody.

M What do you what to excite them, what, I’m a little lost on that as to why we would want to excite them about you. I mean if your our comm line-

G —You don’t have anyone else to, you don’t have anyone else whose life your potentially in control of out here, in a position such as myself.

M No.

G Someone who, someone who could excite them. I mean I have excited them right?

M Right.

G There’s been times when it was get Armstrong week. Right?

M (laugh) sure.

G Same thing could happen again. And maybe this time when it happens. They can be set up. And maybe you can get what you need.

M It could do something.

G Ya, it could do something. I don’t know the form it can take. But I know that, that if you got some, some Intelligence personnel in there, and you give them the idea. I mean there’s a lot of things that can be, that can developed into anything you want.

M Good.


G I, I think we should be a lot more secure than we have been, because I do not believe for a second, that, you know that the PIs do not tap phones.

M Right.

G I think that, that they do, and I also think that the PIs are not necessarily telling the organization what the fuck is going on.

M You think they may be like scared of leaks?

G Well they are possibly scared of leaks, sure because they don’t want to, if you were being paid what they are being paid, wouldn’t you want to maintain this thing?

M Oh. I see what you’re saying.

G They’ve got a vested interest. If you look at who’s got a vested interest in the law suits continuing it’s the attorneys and the PIs. You guys don’t. People at the top do, because that’s how you keep the troops in line, you’ve got to have enemies. They know it, and they play it. The, ah, the attorneys, you know, who recommends that they file more law suits and more law suits, they make you crazy. They are just blowing it, because no one, look, look at the stats in the last two years has anyone, in 3 years has anyone backed off from the organization? Have they had any wins. They probably tout them as wins, but give me a break. People on the outside, there is more documents out right now, there is more people willing to talk. They went after Mayo and crowd and what did those fuckers do? Now they are talking to the Feds. You know, whoever in their wisdom is running this thing is doing one fucking botched job, which is another why, you know you guys would be smart to move in, because you can’t keep driving away the parishioners forever and end up with any money.

M Right.

G Ah. you know, I’m in-, I’m involved in, in this because, you know, in a sense it’s where I lived. In another sense, you see, I’m very altered since getting out of the organization, because I don’t give a fuck any more. I don’t have the thing about life and death that I use to have. In fact I would rather welcome a bullet. In a sense it puts me in a rather powerful position, not that I’m looking for it, and that I would ever contemplate of doing it myself. But, ah, I don’t care. And if you guys can use the fact that I don’t care, and the fact that I write and the fact that I’ve disappeared and a other facts which you can use. I mean. I envisioned it at the outset that potentially you could ah develop an intelligence apparatus which the organization does not have currently, simply by scooping the Pls. If you had a lot, if you had some intelligence on Armstrong, you know, you could get a feather in your cap. And possibly move up in that way to the point where you’re let in on what the fucks going on. Or someone, you know what I mean, if suddenly, ah, you’re the only guy that has, you know, let say someone in the organization had the sense the sense to retain a mole somewhere. And let’s say that someone, we could set it up so that someone got close to me. Then you’ve got your intelligence network. And then back the PIs off because you don’t want them fucking it up. Then suddenly you’re getting funding, if you get them intelligence, that you don’t give a fuck if they get or not, but they get real excited about it. I mean the organization, the people at the top get excited about little, waao! you know this has happened or that has happened. Then they start buzzing about it. Right?

M Ya.


G Well you should give than something to buzz about. I don’t know the […] because its only me. I don’t know your, your capabilities or who’ve you got on the outside or, you know the, the communication limes by which it could happen. We could set the whole god damn thing up so that so that you’ve got someone from the organization in the same apartment complex that I live in,  that I moved to. You know what I mean? And, and possibly in that way you can a, have enough information so that it makes sense that your contacting the people to talk about it.

M Right.

G And becoming part of the top simply because you’re, you’re the guy who’s got it. And they’re going to depend on you. You following me?

M Yup. I’m following you.

G There are a lot of possibilities. How they can he worked out, I don’t know, but I know that, I know that if we determine to say, ok, well let’s keep the law suit on the back burner your attrition goes on as ever it goes on. And now let’s, let’s see what else we can do. I don’t know what can be done between us. Obviously I can get you, a, information as it becomes available to me. You know, and hopefully you can do the same for me. I mean that’s very valuable thing. Just to know, a, who filed or, a, photographed me is valuable because it can be used because you can get organization can be nailed for intimidating witnesses. I’m a federal witness, you can’t go around photographing me. So some stupid fuckhead in the organization decided to be a hero. I would like to know who it was. You haven’t heard anything about the manuscripts? Probably, my guess is that it would only go to the top, very top. But the fact that I’m writing a book, organization can’t stand people that write books. You know what they’ve done to people who have written books before. Same thing is true here, and the book is, a, they know that I’ve got data and they know I can string it together.

M Right. Maybe, ya, a maybe it would be a, a, –

G I don’t know either but I, but I know that there are a lot of things that can be worked out. I would kind of hesitate to do them [with]you, if we are going in different directions. But I think, I think-

M -I don’t think we are going in such different directions.

G -No. I don’t think so at all. I think that both, that both of us you know, want to see the organization transformed into something decent.

M Right.

G That’s what I want to see. Because when it’s something decent, I can deal with it. And everyone else can deal with it. You we can get on about life and you know what ever is valuable in life. It isn’t valuable to me to continue to battle that organization. But I’ll continue to do it. And I think everyone else-

M -Why do you keep doing it, why do you? Why do you. Why are you continuing to battle with it?

G Well, because of what is said, I mean philosophically I see that, that it has to be transformed. I mean, do you think after 15 years I can say OK and walk away from it. Come on, I put as much into it as you did.

M -Like you have a personal-


G I put my whole fucking life into that thing.


M Right.

G To say that I am any less a Scientologist than anyone else is bullshit. But I have a higher commitment to truth then I do to some label which is at best a symbol of a symbol of a symbol.

M Ya.

G And at this point it, it’s becoming a virtually a meaningless symbol. What was a Scientologist is no longer a Scientologist.

M Right. Ya I understand that. That’s real.

G I don’t even have anything against Hubbard. Not a damn thing. I think that,  you know, I guess the ultimate thing about Hubbard is that he is exactly like us, exactly. Not a particle of difference. And he didn’t rise above the bank, and nor would you. But such thing may be possible. In fact since getting out of the organization more has happened, you know, mentally then the whole time I was in it, to the point where, like I said, I’m just radically altered. I was never like this inside. Come on, never even heard from me inside.

M I use to hear you screaming around the twin decks every now and then.

G A, rarely, you know, that’s a whole different thing.

M So what do you think, what do we, where do we go from at this point. Like we, we still got a, I mean I‘m, you said a couple of times regardless of the law suit, regardless of the law suit, regardless of the law suit, this is still something that, that I am interested in proceeding with if we can get it into a frame work where it’s something can actually pull off. I’m not interested in it if we are just going to end up just crucify ourselves by bringing a suit and I’m not going to be stupid enough to do that either.

G -I know, and again I think that it has a tremendous possibility and it really doesn’t matter about the [outcome]. It may to you in some fashion right now. But you know to think that cuts you off from Scientology or what you, or what you, you know what you consider important. God, it may even be a temporary setback, but that’s the most it can be. You know, I think grab the bull by the horns, sue the fuckers. I mean that the-

M But we got, we got to go into this thing with something that has good grounds.

G Exactly. And that’s why you guys have to come up with affidavits. And you should be sending me-

M That was the question that I had.

G Send me the fucking affidavits.


M Now who, from who? From our guys?

G Well, now we’re talking. Your guys, yes. It would be real smart if your guys who worked in the organization, whoever decides to do it, whoever says I’ll take the fucking plunge. You, you know, Mike, Mike said we’ll drop 7 or 8. He also said, you know use 3 or 4 outside. In other words get one, get a  get an affidavit from Schomer, because, because Schomer, Schomer can give you the money he can say this amount of money was sent to the profit corporation. Schomer can say 30 million in a given period. That’s big bucks, ok. So Schomer, Nelson, maybe someone else on the outside. I don’t know. I really don’t know. And let’s say you had a few guys on the inside. Guys who’ve decided, a, I’ll take the plunge and you don’t have to throw all your eggs into that basket. And-

M –What, and what, what do we want on these affidavits from these guys. I’m still-

G -you want anything that is[, you] know about monies of the organization number l going to a profit corporation, ASI, number 2, controlled by ASI.

M Going to ASI. controlled by ASI. OK.

G Ah, by, yes, controlled by ASI. Use of organization monies, a, for whatever reasons. You guys can come up with reasons. Ok, the boat in Clearwater, these are the only things I know about in the last couple of years. The Clearwater deal, the frame up of Mike Flynn, a, anything you know about PIs used, a, to harass individuals. Anything you know about, about a, money being spent a, for what you would consider, anyone would consider non charitable purposes. You know, to destroy people. You know the control, where is the control. I don’t know.

M I’m seeing what you’re talking about.

G Ah,

M Now these guys have to have like personal knowledge of this shit or what? From what I understand when you write an affidavit you got a like, finding guys that had-

G Do you have any personal knowledge?

M Some, some.

G Then why don’t you go out on this limb.

M But I don’t – I’d rather not. I’d rather not. I mean as soon as I, as soon as I were to write an affidavit, then that is going to go somewhere with my name on it, wherever it goes, to our attorney-

G -Don’t even sign the fucking thing. I just what to get the-

M –Oh, I see-

G -I want some affidavits so they can be. so we know what the fuck is this. What are the allegations? You know, cause I’m, I mean kind of getting from you, well shit the organization is fine, it’s not doing anything illegal. And I’m sitting here on the outside, knowing that they want me fucking dead. And that I was threaten by Eugene Ingram that he is going to put a bullet between my fucking eyes. I know that they are up their eyebrows in it, they must have paid. How about the Flynn thing. How much did they pay-


M –Ya, but do we have to, do we have to find someone that has personal knowledge of that in order to get an affidavit of those things?

G How much was paid to Ingram?

M I don’t know that data yet.

G Who paid?

M I presume the attorneys paid him.

G Ya, but it comes from your money.

M Right, so then it would be how much is paid to the attorney. I mean that’s what we would want to know.

G Who gets an accounting of, you know, your board members, your fucking board members. Your guys on the board and you can’t find out? Those are the people who should be signing it, who should be doing it-

M -ok I’m not asking about whether they can find, but whether they need to in order to be able to do this. Do you what I’m saying it’s like-

G They can allege it. They can allege it. They don’t even have, they can allege it.

M So they don’t have to like, they don’t to have you know the document sitting in front of them-

G -They can fucking say the organization destroys the document.

M I see.

G But you can simply say, you know upwards of millions of dollars have been paid. And, fucking attach a god damn, if you attach Freedom and say the whole thing is a crock of shit, that, fucking, you know, a crout has to look at that seriously. You know the fact that, you know, how about, how [aboutqhole] mailing list. Can you get mailing list? Who got Freedom, who much was paid for Freedom, who was it sent to? How about these issues being put out on, on [people] who gets them. How much money is, is spent on that shit?

M That all going along this same line of-

G -the fact that organized, number one there is, you have to say there is a, a conflict, a disagreement about control of funds. Number 2 we’re requesting that the assets be frozen immediately. And the reason is (knocks on something) this and this and this. Organization, supposedly this religious organization is spending non-profit funds to destroy someone’s reputation. They are paying private investigators millions of dollars to destroy someone’s reputation. Fab-, with fabricated evidence. You can allege that. I have a lot of faith in Mike Flynn. you I really don’t know one way or the other if the Tamimi thing is bull shit. But I’ve also spoken to the US Attorney. Deputy US Attorney in Boston and everything I get from anyone is they are going on the bases that its bullshit and will uncover it sooner or later. They are trying to extradite [Tamimi] right now.

M That would be a real PR coup.


G Yeah, but I’m saying … you guys can allege it. Now also, I mentioned to Joey last time, I don’t think that anyone has to get into a frame of mind where if they don’t file this thing two days following the indictment … like they have to take a big loss on it. I wouldn’t … you know, within your group I would let them know that, you know, the timing is not that critical,  it’s more sensible that everything be well done and well prepared and well thought out.

M Right. I completely concur with that. I mean …

G However, it’s … you know, I would not delay years ….

Strange voice comes and asks something.

M No thanks.

G So, …

M Ah, yeah.

G Just so that the boys inside, don’t take a big loss on oh fuck we didn’t do it, and you know, the indictment’s happened. It can be done, but it should also be … I think that something should happen within the next couple of months. You guys should be fuckin get affidavits. You you, probably the boys – some of them aren’t writers. Right. It’s a real pain to fucking … I know. And I’ve written … But it’s all of these things, it isn’t just  organizational, there’s all the personal conflicts and there’s all the egos that are all involved. and the whole thing.’

M Right.

G And, but, you know, get me what they can … and part of what I talked …

M What do you want to do with them?

G I want to fucking see what, what can be done, otherwise …

M You want to sit down and just kind of go over it, and go over it …

G I want to fucking go over it. I want to have them and I want to give them to an attorney. I want to talk to the girl and I want to set up an office and I want to set up a separate corporation. I want to set up a corporation which is, which will act as outside the organization, a clearing house for improving conditions inside. Just the same way that OSA is currently requesting all these knowledge reports set up an office somewhere and hire the organization’s own mailing lists, get knowledge reports on the guys at the top.

M I dig.

G With the intention of … there’s so many things that can be done …

M I dig

G And I want to set up with her, you know, an office, so that so that, you know, you guys sit … you don’t all have typewriters, right?

M I don’t think there’s too much problem getting access to a typewriter, but …

G Well, I don’t know …

M Yeah, but everybody doesn’t have a typewriter …

G Exactly.

M That’s true.


G And, and you can’t be sitting at your desk typing up an affidavit …

M That’s very true.

G You see, so you’re gonna need someone, who you know, you can give me a rough draft and you know we can rework it, and send the damn thing back to you and type the signature.

M Good.

G That’s the kind of thing and that’s why I want to see her, because, I told her I’d say, you know initially I would say I think 20,000 bucks for an attorney and we’d need to set up, you know, a clerical office, somewhere.

M Yeah.

G I can’t continue to do it, you know, my wife can’t continue to do it.

M Right.

G But I can do it if we have some funding. You know I stay completely fucking broke doing this shit. I don’t …

M Well, I’m not making anything out of it…

G No, I know.

M That’s for one day …that’s for one day.

G Is there any information on what the guys at the top are paid? The boys in ASI. What is the control of ASI?

M ASI, ASI, I mean I can find out what, what the guys, CSI people are paid. SAI, I dunno. I mean we could find that out from Homer.

G Yeah. The way it was back then. They were making a lot of money.

M Well, I doubt that that’s changed. I mean we could get that stuff from Homer.

G Oh, …

M That’s a line that could be used, via, via you maybe, to get that stuff from Homer.

G Are organization funds being sent elsewhere? And you could say, well it’s all legitimate because those are the agreements. Who the fucked signed the agreements? Where are the agreements?

M Right.

G Where, where, you know … your Board members are they just figureheads just like some jerk that they pulled in and said here, and just sign this whenever we bring them around.

M Well, well I don’t know whether to characterize them as jerks, but …

G No, but they, they, they’re treated like jerks [… ]I’m saying.

M Well, ev … you know …everybody’s a bit of a jerk, or gets treated like jerks right now. You know what I mean …

G Simply because the attorneys are running it?

M Yeah.

G That’s what’s fucking …


M I mean like …

G I got it. I can grab it and hell, enough of this, fucking bullshit, the organization being run by attorneys. That’s bullshit.

M Oh, yeah.

G Anyway, anyway, organization funds are going elsewhere when they ought not to be. Let’s just say that, you know, CSC could do something, or that … are the Board members knowledgeable enough of legal things to be able to find … where the fuck are the minutes kept. What are the agreements? Where is the … where is the … who represents CSC, who keeps all this shit?

M Right.

M Well, I don’t know that … I don’t know that they need to be legally knowledgeable to be able to find out where that stuff is. You dig what I’m saying?

G And then find out … how do we get a copy of it.

M Right.

G Let’s find out what the agreements are. And let’s find out who signed them, then let’s go talk to who signed them, and find out the circumstances under which they signed them. What are the agreements?

M Good.

G Do you know the way I figure that we are finally ultimately going? Probably the organization will end up suing all of its former attorneys, who have given you guys fucked legal advice. Just fucked advice, because it’s cost you a lot of money, no return and the organization’s public relations stance is worse than it’s ever been. You know, all the PIs have brought on everyone with all their wisdom, are potentially a bunch of indictments and ah, a lot of ill will. And that’s malpractice and anyway you spice it.

M Right.

G And, ah, look at the possibility of finding out, how many board members does it take to form a chorum. And, the form of the resolutions, and, ah, …

M Whether they have to be a meeting, or whether someone can resolve something and pass it around for signature …

G Well, … if

M That sort of …

G If you have board members, do they ever have a meeting. That’s the law, and what if he says, well, you know we never have meetings, and it’s all bullshit and I just sign things. You know, if it’s all a facade.

M Yeah, I get it. I get it.

G But if it isn’t a façade, and the board can actually do something and if the board members have a vote, maybe one day during a board meeting something can be said, we need some new attorneys. We ought to get an assessment, or how about just a, just a resolution drafted and signed by enough people, so that it can happen. And then you’re indemnified. Fucking, the fucking board decided to get some more attorneys. And then other people do the… you know contact the attorneys, not necessarily the old ones that


are all entrenched.

M Mm.

G You know, independent attorneys, that … you could look at it like, you know, all of our legal things are … let’s say that the agreement is that all legal matters are handled by CSI. Number One, it’s probably illegal. Number Two, it sets CSC up to take the fall. And they don’t have control of the legal position. Right. You’ve gotta find out who deals with the attorneys, does the board deal with the attorneys? Who does?

M Well, the board doesn’t deal with the attorneys.

G Who does?

M The … well, for the most part there’s … you know what OSA is?

G Yeah.

G It’s the guys in OSA that deal with the attorneys.

G OSA is … do they develop the legal strategies?

M Yeah.

G Or do they get directions from up above? Is CSC independent or is it not? It’s not.

M I don’t know, it depends which context that question is framed, you know …

G In reality, in reality.

M I don’t think that you could really say that any of the churches were independent, any of the, you know what I mean …

G Right. Now, they allege independence, of course. Like if I were to sue CSC or if I were to … they allege independence[,] that’s the way they get around their various law suits. Oh. that’s a separate corporation. Right?

M I … I don’t know, Gerry. I don’t know the answer to that question. I presume that …

G Is WISE a separate corporation?

M From which? From …

G From anything?

M Yeah, as far as I know, that’s like completely separate.

G But do they operate separately or are they underneath. Are they subject to Sea Org personnel coming in and telling them what to do?

M Well, presumably they would be subject to that. I, you know, that would be the way that I would see. … sure if someone … if some missionaire walked in there, they’d sort of stand up and salute, you know.

G Exactly. So that’s not intended. You know a missionaire can’t walk into Joe’s Corner Grocery store and say, listen guys, give me 10 percent of your take.

M But isn’t that ecclesiastic?

G Fuck.

M I mean …

G That’s the differentiation you guys got … you see, you


guys are bought. You know, when I was in the Sea org, we never even fucking had the word ecclesiastic. That was … that is the bullshit that has been created in order to allow the organization, or allow the group at the top to retain control. And people buy it. It’s like, you know, we never even called it the church when I was in. It’s all kind of PR bullshit that people are buying, party lines, and you need to make a very distinct differentiation between what’s ecclesiastic, because then you’re talking the tech, whatever the fucking tech is, and whatever the philosophy is. But when you’re talking about, well, I can go in and order you to do whatever I want, open up your books. Right? And not only that, but I can go and rip off whatever I want, and I can send you to the RPF. It’s hardly ecclesiastic.

M OK. Well, OK. Good. I mean, OK. That’s the view of you. You know what I mean.

G Right.

M That’s what I’m saying about that external, that external look at things is something of great value …

G What … (Starts chopping in).

M Because it points out things that … that have come so

G Ingrained

M Yeah. That it’s like, don’t see them anymore. Like, you know, we’ve always been sitting with trees all around you, and you say hey, what’s all these trees here, and I say, trees?

G Yeah. What trees.

M What fucking trees are you taking about? Hm. anyway… I’m a little concerned about …

G About getting back?

M About getting away.

G Yeah.

M Yeah.

G OK, we’ll go after …

M You’ve already given me a lot of shit to talk … you know, to talk over, and think about …

G There are so many ideas, you know. it’s just … it’s endless. You see I can’t control … I can’t control your group.

M I know you can’t, and there’s no way we can put you in a position to control it, because I’m not gonna sit here and say well, you know, we’ve got this guy here and this guy there and da da da da da. Because it’s a … that’s a pointless, breach of security in my view. You know, why do that?

G No. That … it does make sense. There are certain things that are very helpful to know. I don’t need to know who your people are, but there are certain times when I need to know, you know, can you get this information, can you get … can you find this thing out. Um, do you have anyone in Clearwater?

M We can get stuff from Clearwater.

G OK. Do you know where my pc folders are?


M All of them? No.

G  Any of them.

M Probably we could find those ones that were being shipped before. Ah, …

G Do you know why they were being shipped?

M No.

G Or where they were being shipped?

M R I don’t know why they were being shipped.

G Do you know who ordered them shipped?

M No.

G Can they find those things out?

M Possibly, yeah.

G Oh, make a note … you know, anything people know about, about, the pc folders. Anything, that’s, you know, that’s the misuse to which these things are put. Any culling that has gone on in them. Any information that has gone to PIs. Do you … who deals with PIs? Is it the OSA people?

M Well, yeah. Bec … the way that the PI line works, as far as … well, you know, on the ones that I have any understanding about, goes from OSA to the attorneys to the PIs.

G Peterson the main guy?

M Yeah, he’s the main attorney.

G Jesus, he’s such a dumb fucker. Whoever … He’s just a political, you know. He just kind of maneuvers and sleezes his way along … he’s a fucking shitty attorney. He really is very stupid. He …

M I’ll make sure … I’ll make sure we don’t take our thing to him.

G Oh. You’ve met him, hey?

M Yeah. I’ve met him.

G He’s fucking dead (or dense). I don’t know. I mean. But he’s a sleeze, you know. so he’s kind of fading into his niche of power by sleezing and by not being the guy to take the fall on all the cases they lose. Right? But he’s …

M He’s still there.

G the fucking guy.

M He’s still there.

G Such a dumb shit too; I licked the hell out of him.

M Well, listen.

G You know, even lay that kind of information out. Who has first hand knowledge of that?

M Of which?

G Of that use of the PIs. That that’s the line, you know. Money’s paid to attorneys, and they in turn deal with the PIs. That information is given to the attorneys? Does … has anyone got one instance of anything from anyone’s pc


Folder being told to an attorney or to a PI. Anything…


G …Anything that you could think of that is just, it’s either corrupt or it’s rotten or, or even borders on illegal, and illegal does not necessarily mean the commission of a crime, it just means money being used for a wrong purpose. And …

M That’s like civil … civil as opposed to criminal …

G I guess this is a civil matter. The organization … you know, just to say that number one, the organization is in control of people who are not controlled. Number two, they grab power by ex-means, by however they can grab power. Number three. the current board of directors are mere figureheads. Oh. what … you know… Number four, you know, so much money has been paid to do such and such. Number five, ah, you know, money was paid to PIs. 250,000 dollars, to, ah, entrap people in Florida. You know, so much was paid to, ah, you know, you can just say, you know, millions of dollars have been paid to PIs to harass and frame viewed enemies of the organization. All those kind of things that are just … are not the way you want []it to be. What is the organization then? And then get the damn affidavits written. I don’t care if they hang them right, but just put down into as sensible as form as possible whatever information the people who you predict could potentially sign the complaint. And …

M Do we want the guys who would actually be the plaintiffs to do those … The guys, who are … well, they are obviously going to be the same people.

G Yeah, but on the other hand, there are other people on the outside …

M Right.

G Homer Schomer, maybe Mayo … I don’t know … ah, John Nelson, perhaps other people who, who have been the subject of harassment or who know of organization monies being used improperly.

M Well, you may have to help us with those ones.

G I will help. I want … to also find out about money and whether or not someone wants me to talk to um attorneys.


G And get me phone numbers, a phone number. I’ll only call if it’s absolutely desperate. Also. you guys should set up a contingency. I think, some … figure something out, I can be the person if you want, so that if someone is held inside, that they’re able to … you know, that there’s some means of getting that information out. Because, you know, no—one wants anyone to get hurt.

M That’s very true.

G So figure out some …

M Very true.

G … Contingencies like that, so that, you know, every 24 hours if there isn’t a call every 24 hours call the Feds.


G Something, you know … I don’t know what form it’ll take, but I think that we should review if you’re smart …


G I’m freezing in here.

M Me too. Let’s get …

G I think it will be real smart to start developing things along that line.

M So, I’m not going in that direction.

G That’s fine.

M What are … What I want to do, I’ve got quite a bit of shit here to talk over here, go over with the other guys, and ah, I’ll get in contact with you using the numbers that you already have for right now.

G Yeah, call my place.

M Give you … you’ve got those ones from Joey, right?=

G I’ve got three.

M I’ll give you …

G He’s got a …

M One of those. I’ll give you one of those.

G Good.

M You can then go to that phone, you know, and I’ll tell you half an hour or whatever. You can call me there and then I’ll set up and we can meet somewhere else. And then I come next time I’ll bring another list of numbers, too.


M Further away.

G OK. And … and some means so …

M Yeah, we’ll get the PO Box set up, and …

G And the number so that …

M Yeah, I don’t see that there’s any prob … I don’t see any problem in … in setting it up so that you could call a number, like even … even in Joey’s area, just call that number and leave a message for him. Not you, but…

G I understand.

M … But under a suitable guise, you know, your mother called and left a message and wanted you to call her back or something. And, he wouldn’t even have to go to the phone or anything. He could just have the message passed on like…

G I don’t know his name, but anyway …

M No, but that’s fine … that’s fine … we … I am … I haven’t ….

G I don’t even want to know … By the way you’re just some blonde guy, right? He had a long, black beard, that’s the only thing I remember.

M Right. Well, I appreciate that.

G Good. Good to see you again.

M You, too. Bye bye.


  1. This document in pdf format.
  2. This document is Exhibit C to Declaration of John G. Peterson (22 January 1986) filed in Armstrong 1.
  3. Scientology submitted a partial transcript of this meeting in their 1023 submission to the IRS: Exhibit III-10-Q: Transcript of meeting between J and GA on 7 November 1984 (1993).
  4. This video was shown at trial in Christofferson. See court transcript (Part 1) and (Part 2).