Transcript: Illegal video (November 17, 1984)

Transcript of 17 November, 19841, 2, 3, 4

Meeting between Mike and GA.

M Got your dollar?

G Yeah, how’re you doing?

M Very good. How are you?

G Not bad.

M Finally.

G There you go.

M You going to give that back to me?

G If you like.

M Listen I think I needed it more than you do, I think. (Both laugh).

G Got it. Go ahead.

M So here I am. Now, I guess you’re probably gonna want to know a little bit about why me. But, ah, the reason I [w–] to meet you is because we’re a little concerned at this point at the fact that, you know that stuff is being relayed through this relay point and you know that there may be some misduplication occurring and shit. And I want to get the straight scoop from you. I also. I brought this draft suit because I want to go over that with you because there are some points that, well, I have a little concern about some of those. About how we’re going to handle that. If we were to go ahead and bring that how it would actually come out. But, at certain, at certain times we really need to, to ah, get the real scene, what’s really going on. So, I’m gonna, I have a comm line to the rest of the guys. Joey doesn’t have that. So, I can be a more direct relay point, because this has been going on now for some time.

G There’s a lot of things that I’d like to work out. Which I think will make things a lot easier. First of all the complaint itself that’s not set in concrete, you know …

M No, no, I understand.

G And, a lot of issues keep coming up which kind of broaden the whole thing as far as I’m concerned. Ah, last time I met with Joey it was just the girl. And ah, at that point I was basically given the go ahead to locate an attorney. I don’t know if you guys have an attorney, I don’t know what the status of that is. However, when apparently the money fell through or whatever happened, I did not have a named three attorneys and I’d be willing to do that, but that’s kind of the last thing I was left with.

M Right.

G My understanding is that it’s sort of up in the air, the whole thing. And that’s OK. I don’t have any compulsion to do any of it, you know. My opinion of the organization is that it’s in a state of transformation. It has to be altered and it is altering itself and it will continue. We happen to be in a situation right now where something good could come out of it. That’s philosophically where I stand on it; I don’t want to continue on a legal battle with anyone…

M Well, that’s exactly what our position is on that. I mean

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That is really the common interest that we have with you.

G Everyone has … you know, as an aside, that viewpoint is being assumed on the outside in great numbers. People are suddenly beginning to realize that the thing, something is happening and a transformation has to take place. So what does everyone do in a situation like that.

M Right.

G But it is being picked up on outside. I had a call this morning from Martin Samuels. I had a call a few days ago from Bent Corydon, all of them are kind of moving away from … well, we’re just going to proceed with our law suits kind of a viewpoint, to the position that something is happening and something can be done. So, what do Scientologists as a body want their organization to become. That’s kind of the real …

M Right

G People are in a very unique position. It never happened before in the history of the organization, although in a sense, the Miscavige takeover was similar.

M Yeah, similar. We’ve just got to get some people into positions that are more akin to the position that he was in when he actually managed to pull that off…

G I don’t … (mumble) … I really… well I can…

M Well, I don’t know …

G It seems like he’s very firmly entrenched, but the degree of his entrenchment could be his demise.

M That’s very true, I mean that to some degree is the basic premise for the suit…

G Hm…

M You know, that entrenchment and the control over the organization is sort of what this is shooting for.

G Right. You… Are you familiar with the whole legal scene… you’re legally…

M Yeah, I’m pretty familiar with the legal scene.

G OK. I have some questions.

M Yeah.

G I understand you have a couple of Board members. CSC. At least people… I don’t know if they’re your people, but at least people who think similarly. How many Board Members are there in CSC.

M Well, there is a President and then there is the Secretary, Treasurer, and a Dep … you know, an Assistant Treasurer, and then there are, I believe there are voting members as well.

G Oh, really.

M Yeah.

G If … for a board minute to be an actual board minute, how many signatures does it need?

M You know, I actually don’t know that, but I …

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G Could you find that out?

M Yeah. I could find that out.

G The reason I ask is simply because, you know, all these legal concepts come to me, and I’d really like to talk to an attorney, you know, on your behalf or whatever, because I think it’s our … because the situation is so unique that the legal possibilities are enormous. For example, the Board could simply vote to retain new counsel. And you know the way Board Minutes circulate inside the organization.

M Right

G They just type one up and everyone signs it, and then you’ve got a Board minute.

M You mean just get someone to, ah, …

G Well, … the Board … CSC Board are under the control of somebody else, obviously.

M Yeah, there under control of CSI, to some degree because there is some agreement that exists between CSI and all the other Churches.

G Yeah, but what’s that agreement. What is that agreement.

M Well, it’s something in the area of an agreement to, ah, well, it’s like…you know this licensing agreement that exists between RTC and then CSI?

G Yep. (While M is saying the above).

M And I believe it goes down from CSI, down to the other churches, … licensing agreement on the basis of good usage of the technology. They are allowed to continue …

G CSC, a couple of years ago was the whole thing.

M Right.

G CSC now is a relatively miniscule part of the whole thing. They probably lost SOR. Am I correct?

M Well, it’s not, … well CSC is not that miniscule, because it still includes like AOLA, ASHO, LA org and those things…

G Oh yeah, in fact you have operating orgs …

M Right.

G You see I don’t know the form this thing is going to take, but we don’t have to get stuck on the one complaint. I think it’s a brilliant complaint. I think you guys are in a position where you can make it happen.

M Right.

G In addition to that, there’s also the concept that what if CSC suddenly said, we’re CSC, we’re getting new attorneys, we’re firing our old attorneys, and not only that but we’re going to sue them, because they fucked us over and they made us divest all this shit, which we didn’t want to. And we’re demanding SOR back, and we’re demanding all organizations back. We’re the mother church. So, fuck you guys. You know, there’s that kind of a thing which could be done from simply a part. You don’t have to be the whole body of Scientology. You could do it corporately. And take for example the agreement you have with, ah, the CSI. That agreement certainly can be rescinded. Not only that, but you could find out the conditions under which the agreement was made,

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who signed the damn thing and did they have any choice? They were the … they were the … There had to be a Board at the time.

M Right.

G The Board at the time had to have signed an agreement. Then they were all removed or kicked out or … got dismembered or whatever. But those people signed some sort of agreement, and if you could simply find out from them, ah, well we were told sign or we were dead, sign or you’re kicked out? By who? Who can tell the Board, sign something? I mean you’ve got the …it’s an open and shut case. There are so many of those possibilities… if you get in Remember the note I sent along with Joey a while ago? Kind of [ ] what happened during that transition from the, you know, the CSC and the CSC’s kind of a front for the whole thing. Hubbard controlled through CSC for so many years. Correct?

M Well, then you get into the legalities of what is control. I mean, that’s what’s being litigated right now, to a large extent.

G That’s a whole different subject, you see, cos you people are in fact the organization.

M Right. Provided there’re enough of us. That’s one of the concerns I had about this. I actually we have a line to an attorney, and I had this suit, had him look at it, and this is not on the basis of taking it on or anything, but just to give us a little advice on it. And like one of the questions is what would be the standing of the plaintiff in the first place. You know. like to say that we’re going to get together twenty people and say this is now the Church, and you know, this is CSC, or CSI or whatever, is like … there’s three, four, five hundred people in CSI and maybe eight hundred people in CSC and I don’t think … that could turn out to be a real weak point in that.

G Yes, but they can’t kick you out of the organ … they can’t kick you out. You see. if you see I’m … I’m it, I’m just as much a part of it as you are. I mean not to say that you’re it and they’re not. But I can’t say that I’m the Church of Scientology. I made that choice when I walked out the door. You guys haven’t walked out. So you’re in a completely different position.

M Yeah, but what, you know, see the liability in this … the real liability in this suit to us, is that it puts us out into the open. Now obviously at some point we’re going to have to go out into the open. But there’s a liability to it in that unless this is strong enough to make it without crumbling under the first challenge we’re fucking dead man. I mean, we’re just dead. I mean the first thing that will happen if we bring this suit is that we’ll all just get declared. Everybody who’s name is on there as a plaintiff will just instantly get declared and expelled. Then we …

G That’s the whole thing… that’s the … That’s where we get into, sorry, we’re not moving.

M Well, as a rule, then it becomes like a PR battle.

G It is a PR battle, which is why I mentioned in the last note. I hope you guys get these things …

M Well, that’s one of the things. I don’t know if everything that you have said has been relayed correctly, everything … so …

G I am only a relay point in this thing. However, I do make

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it my purpose to create as much shit as possible. You know, hence I have …

M Shit for the organization?

G Yeah, I … whatever I do … cos I have no … I’m not hooked into anything. Anyway, I mentioned that … PR … you know there are many PR aspects to it and the PR thing can be so well done that, you know, Scientologists, because they’ve had it drilled into them, you know, tend to believe, they’re believers.

M Right.

G If you … if you … anyway, that’s why I mentioned get off policy actions. Anything. Any little details that you can find that the top has done off old accepted policy. They’re doing a lot of it now, you know, hidden data lines. Use of PIs. you know. anything you can find. Then you’ve got the organization behind you, because they’re off policy. And include it in the law suit, include it that they’re not, they’re not doing what is best for Scientology because they’re violating the existing policies, they’re operating autonomously, and they’re not operating for the best good of the group. There are a lot of those things that have to be worked out to make the complaint very strong, and you know, no-one has any idea if the thing will be pulled off, no-one. You know, you can’t tell, you can’t tell five seconds from now what’s going to happen, and to have to have a sure thing, well we can wait till the cows come home, you know.

M Yeah. I got that point.

G It’s going to take a (inaudible) it’s going to take some asshole to stand up and say we’ve had enough of this shit. You know. it’s going to take that.

M They’re going to have to be in a strong enough position prior to that to be able to stand up and get anybody to hear then. Do you see what I’m saying … it’s like …

G Do you have anyone like that … see …

M Well, there’s …

G You know there’s two different positions. One is the public relations position and the other is the organizational position. You may not be in an organizational position, but what kind of a position are the people going to be in if a whole shitload of then are indicted?

M Well …

G Cos, they’re not going to have a lot of …

M That’s the thing, that’s kind of how that ties into this, because that would weaken those people who are in those positions right now, that have that authority to call a meeting of all staff in Lebanon Hall and stand up and say, listen, there’s a bunch of assholes around here that …

G You guys have the same possibility.

M Yeah, it’s a possibility.

G you know, it could just, it could just be done. The whole … you know … take … if you guys concentrated only on the CSC … on the blue building. And divide the damn thing up and just, you know, the day that the thing happens. You know, the day that you file your complaint, then just call everyone and say that there’s a meeting. I don’t know the

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Positions of your people, or if they are in positions of strength, if they’re accepted in the organization, or if they’re all dishwasher. I have no data.

M Well, they’re not all dishwashers.

G Obviously. But they’re somewhere in between. They’re obviously not in ASI.

M Right.

G But they’re …

M That’s not the organization, anyway…

G Right. But not only that. but you’re going to get people on your side. How about if one of these days your … let’s say at a given hour, a bunch of people were to pitch up on the doorstep.

M Where?

G Wherever you wanted then. Suddenly you’ve got numbers. Suddenly you’ve got a lot of people crowding into Lebanon Hall to hear lectures. To hear talks, to hear an announcement and you may have numbers on your side.

M Right.

G Some of these … there are a lot … There are a lot of people on the outside, and potentially the whole thing could be orchestrated, it could all be divided up into cells and it could all be brought to one place at a given instant.

M Right.

G It can be one during the chaos of whatever RTC, ASI’s got going. Who runs the organization right now?

M Which organization?

G All of it. Who runs it?

M Well, it gets run through CMO Int.

G And who are those people.

M Well, you know, probably the same guys as when you were around.

G A lot of them are gone.

M Yeah, quite a number of them are.

Stranger asks for time.

M Sure. It’s 12.35.

M Yeah, that’s true, that’s true. I tell you. I’m going to be totally honest with you, Gerry. I can see some potential in this suit, and it’s actually, one thing that I now see is the usefulness of talking to someone that’s not stuck into it. Cos you get a …whole exterior kind of look at things which I tend to … I tend to self doubt a little, you know, on how far we can go.

G Yeah. that’s the way the mind works.

M Right, and you know, I’m doubtful of my position, too. You know what I mean like.

G What do you mean?

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M Well, like I have my life as a Scientologist, because, because I am still a Scientologist. That’s not, I don’t want to change that.

G Ok. I understand. I don’t see how that alters it in any way.

M Well, that just puts me into a little different position from you.

G Of course.

M Because, that is the threat of loss to me, and to the other people…

G Right.

M …that I’m involved with. That’s our threat of loss, and that becomes… see there’s like…the ecclesiastical line, then there’s the legal secular line and our threat of loss…you see, they have to go sort of hand in hand.

G Which brings us to another subject. Which…you have to make a very clear differentiation between those two things because they are absolutely different. The organization tends to lump them all together so they can get away with their abuses and call them ecclesiastical rights or whatever. You know, like the hiring of PIs – oh that’s just church doctrine. Bullshit. You know, you guys have to make a distinction and get it real straight on what the fuck is the organization and what the fuck is worth saving.

M Right. I understand that.

G That has to be part of the lawsuit.

M Right.

G Because they’ve twisted it and perverted it to the point where your organization stands a good chance of being smacked down so fucking hard it will never rise again. Because people are going to get real pissed off, because people are real pissed off and they’re going to get pissed off, and PIs are going to step out of line and somebody’s going to get killed and that will be tits up for Scientology as you’ve ever known it. It’s going to come across as nothing better than fucking terrorism, which is basically what it is right now. You guys are terrorized you can’t work out of the organization. Fucking frisked and TV monitors and all, come on, fucking terrorist group, that’s all it is. Somebody has to stand up and say enough of this bull shit, because sooner or later somebody is going to get hurt. You know you’ve got Federal agencies just about to bring the hammer down. You guys are assaulted from every quarter with law suits and they all could be bought off, they could all be bought off for – you known for 5 cents on the dollar. But ..

M Right.

G But no, it happens to be in the hands of a very few paranoid individuals and they should be smacked down.

M Well, I’m a little paranoid, too. If you know what I mean.

G You’re not paranoid, your, you have a justifiable fear. I recognize that. It creates fear, what the fuck kind of a Church is it, come on. Jesus, it’s[,] it’s so ludicrous to anyone on the outside. What kind of fear, you know, an organization is it that, that just creates this incredible fear inside everyone in there. There fucking scared to death.

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G And [they’re, they’re] so suppressed that that they haven’t got a clue about the way the world really is out here. Not that I do either you know. I’m saying I have a handle on anything. But I tell you something is going to happen in that organization sooner or later, whether or not it’s you guys or whether or not it’s some wacko, whether or not you know, somebody takes a shot at someone. I don’t know.

M Right.

G But I think that you are in a position where something could be done, and if you, if they really are dedicated to saving of Scientology, save Scientology don’t save the shit that’s going on now. Because Scientology surely the fuck is not that.

M Right.

G Its not. you know….

M That’s true, you know, I like, I was starting to say a minute ago, you know. I am going to be totally [f]rank with you. This law suit and doing this. I have some concern that we are being set up.

G I have a concern that I am being set up. Every time I talk to you guys I have the same concern. But I kind of think, fuck, what’s going to happen, you know, what’s going to happen. What if you guys are setting me up, just go to court sometime later. You know that’s how the courts are viewing all this shit now. Entrapment set ups, lies, they are catching a beating everywhere they go. Because nobody believes Scientology any more, no one, you talk about Scientology out there, bull shit, unbelieve and no creditability. And they’ve got no creditability because they are a terrorist organization. They can’t trust a terrorist, never believe them, we should, you should have a lot of concerns about it. Frankly I don’t think it matters a damn. It really honestly doesn’t matter a damn if you guys file it or not, or if you do anything, or if you all go, go back and just continue on. None of that matters.

M It does matter.

G There you get into some deep philosophical questions which I don’t think can be answered at this time. But I’m saying that doesn’t matter. I think it would be real fucking exciting I think that you guys sit in a situation where fuck, you sure can get out of the boredom of Scientology for a couple of days. Isn’t it a boring thing?

M I don’t think it’s a boring thing.

G Bull Shit, it’s fucking boring. Jesus. if Scientology wasn’t so fucking,  I mean not really the, you know, the Scientology but, the Sea Org thing you know, everyone in there was just any news, the least fucking news, adrenalin addicts, got to have the latest skinny and the news. I, I don’t. I don’t think it matters, it would be great, I think it would be real exciting and, and in a sense I wish I was there. Because that, Jesus Christ…

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(From 30 minutes into tape)

G I think it’s just fucking, it’s exciting, and a, you guys could be in a position of doing a great deal of good. But you know the World is not going to be a fucking bit different.

M But my world will be.

G In a sense. In a sense. I mean your world is whatever you make it.

M Well ya, but my world revolves around Scientology. I mean that’s the way I am and that’s the way I am going to stay. And you know you start talking about, well it’s going to be wiped out and reck reack… and you know that’s not something that I want. And we keep getting stuff back from Joey, you say, you know you, the government is going to be coming down and all this sort of shit, and it’s like, you know I don’t know, I don’t know what is going to happen with that stuff.

G You know I don’t know either. But what I do know is that the thing cannot remain status quo, it cannot, and it won’t. I don’t how, I don’t know what is going to happen. No one does and that’s why the fact that we don’t know what’s going to happen puts in a in a position of being able to do something. Because we are not hooked into the way it is.

M But what can we do to make something happen?

G You guys, can do basically whatever you want.

M But we’ve got to survive that first. Whatever we do we gotta survive.

G You’ll survive. There’s no doubt of that. Whether or not it turns out the way you hoped, [who] knows. I mean I, who has any expectations. You know the only thing you get when you get an expectation is an upset, because no expectation ever happens. You know no girl you ever went out with ended up exactly the way you though she was in the beginning. That’s the whole thing about expectations. And when you kind of move away from expectations. then what ever happens you can live with.

M Right. Well we have an expectation, regardless of anything else, we have an expectation that isn’t going to go away. Is that we will actually be able to be Scientologist. We have no interest in that.

You guys have more hope of being Scientologist if you do this. If you stand up and say I am a Scientologist, and I don’t want the frigging organization to become this kind of, this kind of a paranoid operation. That’s silly, and to think that there are government agencies against you is also a lot of bull shit. I have probably talked to 20 or 30 people in various places in government in the last couple of years. I have not found one who had any problem with Scientology, any vendetta, any desire to stop Scientology or any desire to hurt any Scientologist. Not one. That’s the lie that is perpetrated on the inside.

M I’ve seen some stuff that says other wise to that.

G What?

M I saw. I saw this transcript of a meeting, you know one of bugged meetings that they fucking did back in ‘74.

G Ya.

M I saw the fucking transcript of a meeting between some guys in the IRS. That guy Rumph, Todesco I think. I think that’s what their names were. And that. I’ll tell you Gerry, that

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G What exactly did they want to wipe out?

M Well, the basic thing was something on the order of (inaudible).

G Check. That’s the way it is.

M But is that what they’re doing? What else (inaudible).

G The IRS want to handle the same things you guys want to handle.

M I don’t understand what their motive is for that. I don’t understand exactly why … what … (inaudible).

G That’s true, however, if there is an illegal charitable corporation, and it is used for illegal means (inaudible). And not only that (inaudible) how many people have been hurt. (inaudible) a charitable organization. There’s no charity in Scientology. Scientology corporations (inaudible)… for the fear of a very small group at the top. (Inaudible)… want a great deal of power…(inaudible) keeping that power. (inaudible) again these people haven’t said … after Miscavige and after Hubbard. And it should be. Hubbard rips off a lot of people. Fucking obvious. while he was telling us he doesn’t make any money, he’s been making millions. (Inaudible) … while all the time he’s been lying about his (inaudible). It’s bullshit.

M OK. OK. yeah…

G That’s the way it is …

M OK. but …

G The guy got greedy. He had brilliant ideas, but he got greedy …

M Alright. Thank you. From our viewpoint. attacks. … I don’t see … my personal view is that that’s not the target for us. Very much not. If anyone’s going to continue being a Scientologist then he’s got to remain there and be the key forthright figurehead that’s talked about in Essay on Management. You know and …

G (inaudible)… you guys can have that viewpoint about him. I don’t have any problems. no problem about it. But I do have a great deal of difficulty with the fact that people’s lives are being fucked around. I think that no corporation should have more rights than the individual. And many organizations, essentially like Scientology, tend to hide behind a veil of religiosity. Scientology, in my opinion, is the greatest threat to the freedom of religion in the United States of anything else. I heard all this bullshit about Flynn and Clark and these anti-religious … Flynn’s probably one of the most religious people I have ever met.

Stranger comes into view and asks for a light. Mike gives him one.

G (inaudible) But that’s just where I stand on it. I sit out here and I see that things … things are coming out beautifully. (inaudible) … put up with that shit.

M Why?

G (inaudible) Fucking saying I’m a big shit (?) I mean. Jesus Christ (inaudible) blame them, man. Come on? After a while (what?) the fuck is he doing? where the fuck is he? (Inaudible) … IRS. How could they possibly know what the false reports are, because probably Scientology (inaudible). It’s fucking sick.

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well. it’s just like, well, Ron says its true- Jesus Christ. You’re more important to yourself than L Ron Hubbard is to you. (inaudible) All the world’s secrets are within you. To think that it’s out there in some other guy’s (inaudible). You guys are all big and strong (inaudible) better than he is.

M Right …

G That’s just …

M Well, I don’t want to get into a philosophical argument about … you know … what I think about Scientology …

G One thing you have to realize is that nobody, but nobody, wants to stop anyone from practicing Scientology. Other than Scientologists. They want Scientology to be destroyed. You look at what they try to do (inaudible)to the point where today it’s all been copyrighted. (Inaudible). Because you know it can’t claim  to be a religion now. You can’t say that I’ve got (inaudible).

M Do you know how you’re going to … you know … argue that point?

G Oh yeah, because there’re going to be more Scientologists present from the outside than from the inside. You know, a considerable number of them. (Inaudible) and I don’t have any stake in it. You know, no-one (inaudible) out here is dedicated to doing then in, there may be a few guys in the organization, but I haven’t met anyone out here.

M No, well, this point… it’s all getting a bit nebulous about where to go, what to do. That sort of caliber …

G It is nebulous, you can’t ah, (inaudible).

M They do

G You do, but…

M I don’t know.

G I don’t know either. It’s sort of in a sense, kind of like, you’re in a position (inaudible). I mean what label you call yourself means fuck-all. I could talk to anybody (inaudible) just like I’m talking to you. I don’t have anything against Scientology. And that’s because (inaudible). That’s sort of the idea I’ve got – the old org is taken over by a new one inside. And then maybe they will open the doors. (The above was quite inaudible, and so is probably not accurate.) They can start to do something decent. You know. not this (inaudible).

M Right, well it all comes back to, like, the same basic problem that we’re always confronted with of there is something that needs to be changed, there is no question about that. That’s why we are here.

G Right.

M Cos there are things that have got to be changed. We have, from our viewpoint, watched Scientology become unrecognizable to us as we know and believe it should be. You see what I mean?

G (Inaudible) you guys. No-one in there (inaudible) what it will be. No-one, no-one. No-one really cares. (Inaudible) personal choice (inaudible). I simply want all the goddam lawsuits that are going on all over the world, to end. So I can get the fuck out of this. This game…

M Inaudible.

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G Inaudible. You know for better or worse I fucking uncovered it. I got the stack of documents and I uncovered the fraud.

M Inaudible.

G (Inaudible) …time to say (Inaudible). (Quite a long monologue, but inaudible.)

M How do we handle that?

G Well, in my opinion, the first thing in the sequence (rest inaudible).

M You mean (inaudible). Both 35, yeah.

G So (inaudible) great deal of mobility, but perhaps there are people who operate under the (inaudible) of generosity.

M Ok.

G But some of them have an ability.

M Yeah

G Aside from the last bit, let’s just put the last bit aside, and let’s go to the concept of (inaudible.)

M But that’s not (inaudible). There is no (inaudible) inside. Like when you start talking about indicting 15 or 20 or however number of people from Canada, that has a, that has a real effect on me (inaudible).

G Yeah, but you have virtually no control over (inaudible) up the ladder.

M I understand, but until they go no—one (inaudible) no-one’s going to move up the ladder.

G I understand, but what can be done? (Mumble).

M OK, carry on, carry on.

G What do you imagine could be done?

M Well, you see, this thing about this law suit. I have this …

G Aside from the law suit (inaudible). Do you have any potential (inaudible). How do you see me?

M How do I see you? Well, to some extent I see you as — I see you in two lights. One is this. I feel you have real or particularly have real (inaudible). You have (inaudible). You have a lot of data on what’s going on,  what people finished what, what the general tone is, outside the org – this is important to us. You know (inaudible) I also see you as someone with whom we can communicate on the outside via you. (Then on the other hand I have my (inaudible) paranoia stuff where I wonder whether you’re not just setting us up. You know — come into the law suit. (inaudible) a law suit which we can’t substantiate. for the purpose of simply disrupting everybody to get their attention off the other suit. You know …

G I never conceived of such a thing. but …

M Well, you see I don’t know. Gerry. You say you never conceived of such a thing. To me that’s not an unreal sort of thing (inaudible). You know what I mean?

G Oh, yeah. Granted, it never entered my mind, and I can’t see exactly how it would happen, but …

-12-

M Or, maybe it’s not even you that’s doing it. or you’re doing it unwillingly, you know what I mean? I don’t know … Like (inaudible) communicate through, and it could be a completely unwilling thing. You could have the view, yeah, this is a way I could really help these guys and blah, blah, blah. Someone else could be figuring out how you’re giving them (inaudible) help is actually going to result in this head on fuck up within the organization. And this could be very beneficial, to someone who had that viewpoint. You know what I mean?

G Inaudible. (You should capitalize on it?)

M Yeah, but we can only capitalize on it, if out of the ensuing chaos we come out on top. we cannot capitalize if we are sacrificed to create that chaos. Sacrificial lambs. I don’t want to be left hanging on a cross somewhere … “

G Nods

M having gone ahead with some idea that Gerry Armstrong came up with, you know, it sounded all great, and then a few months down the line, I find I’m declared. I now have a fucking suit against me. da da da da dada.

G That’s the downside. That is fucking downside in meeting, in me meeting with you. You know, a guy drives by and Bing.

M Right.

G And then you get the security wrap, and you’re declared and … You know. there’s downsides in everything.

M Yeah, but that’s… that has a very much reduced possibility, as long as I’m careful about what I do. You see what I mean?

G Yeah

M You see I can control a little bit more, I can control something else than someone didn’t (inaudible). You asked me how I feel, well that’s how I feel. I realize, saying that, saying that to you that’s like a real downside just saying it to you. I mean I could sit here and say (inaudible) and rack, rack, rack. I realize I’m in a fucked position. I’ve got more probably to lose out of this lawsuit than you do. For myself. Maybe not legally Maybe not …. The things that I hold as important to me … there is more threat of loss to me right now than there it to you. (inaudible) … legal. You know what I mean?

G Yeah, could be. You know, I don’t know (inaudible).

M Yeah, well, you know. You set yourself up in this position … I mean what happens if something goes (inaudible).

G So, you see, anything other than the possibility, that is aside from the law suit and the appealing of that. I mean there isn’t anything (inaudible) You guys (inaudible). The thing about (inaudible) … there isn’t a lot going on … there isn’t a lot being covered up, you know what I mean. So, you guys, there isn’t a great deal of intelligence, with the flow from my direction towards you people. I can let you in on what I know from the Canadians. But (inaudible) otherwise your ass is going to be (inaudible).

M Wait a minute, from what we understood from Joey you had some sort of a line in, whereby you were kept informed of

-13-

that sort of thing. Cos he was coming back and saying, hey Gerry’s going to … and indictments are going to come down on rack rack. And we get this information back on our lines. That is valuable data.

G I understand

M (inaudible).

G Exactly (inaudible) an open communication line. But anyone could call up Michael Flynn and ask him how‘s it going, even though he does tell me probably a lot more than he would tell somebody else. But it’s not going to be anything that he’s going to (inaudible). You see if you want to get passed some very detailed organization information, which could greatly assist. In other words, the creation of a network which is not only within the organization, but is also outside. (Inaudible – vehicles passing in background).

M How would you do that?

G I have mobility and I have a lot pf people out there. I don’t know what the capabilities are like inside. I’ve often asked questions and I’ve not got answers to a lot of certain things. so I don’t know …

M Ask me, ask me again. I should tell you one thing. Everybody knows what’s going on (?) (Inaudible) The security force.

G Who.

M I don’t know the guys enough, but I know it’s the security force.

G Inaudible.

M Yeah, but they have two cars. They have two blue (inaudible) with white tops. and they drive around in these.

G Right. I (inaudible).(asked for the license plate?)

M You may have. I don’t know …

G Yeah. I (inaudible).

M Oh. we can get that data easy.

G But you see, I asked that the same day …

M Yes, you see that’s why …

G Exactly. Now we’re talking.

M We can get that data for you easy.

G OK. do you have my list of pay phone numbers. Did you get it?

M Joey’s  still got it. I can get it from him.

G OK, fine. If you guys can arrange an address.

M Yeah.

G Some place that mail can be sent to.

M We can set up a PO Box.

G Good.

-14-

M That’s no problem. I mean, what’s the problem in setting up a PO Box.

G No problem.

M OK, I didn’t know you needed that.

G OK, here’s what I’d like to do. Let’s put aside … oh, the other thing … the other thing is attorneys, do you want me to do anything with attorneys? Does somebody have any money?

M Well, we don’t have enough money right now, to be able to … I don’t think any attorney would take this on on contingency (?).

G We’re not talking about contingency (?) It doesn’t have to happen for two or three months out there (inaudible).

M Right, that’s my concern. A protracted thing, or something that gets into all the fucking motions to dismiss, and this and that and rack rack. I don’t think we’d survive that. That was the point (inaudible). It’s gotta be like a …

G (inaudible) make a not[e] of it. We have to add into the complaint the threat that you people will feel  will happen to you when you bring this lawsuit. (and you can (inaudible) with affidavits on whatever happened to anyone who has opposed or fought … For example Franks (inaudible), Homer Schomer (inaudible). I don’t know all the details…

M Those affis already exist though.

G Yeah, but you’ve got to get new affis. You can’t just photocopy them from all from some other lawsuit. But …

M Why?

G Well, because your … you’ve got a brand new complaint, and you’ll need new affidavits and signed. You do. It can’t just be a stack of old documents.

M OK. Well, I’ll take your word on that. I don’t really know. I don’t fully understand. I understand that something that was admitted evidence or was a taken affidavit by a court reporter or whatever would have been admissible evidence in another suit.

G That’s true, and if you guys can get a hold of it and say, that’s what happened in this situation, but that’s not an affidavit unless the complaint is filed. That’s supporting documentation.

M Right, I understand.

G Use your legal mind. If you have a legal mind above yourself. Some who’s …

M A little more au fe than I am with it.

G OK.

M I’m not like completely …

G No, you sound fine, and I’m not, and I’m no attorney. OK?

M Good.

G Um, also looking at … if we consider L. Ron Hubbard in the law suit (?) (Inaudible). You know, violations of Scientology policy. And the reason for that is not so that … not so much as to affect the courts…although you

-15-

can in that way show that they are not legitimate leaders, because they are violating their own policy. But you want to (inaudible) the actual (inaudible).

M With the actual complaint itself.

G With the complaint.

M Right.

G In the complaint and then on supporting affidavits.

M Right. Because that then comes out in the press. And that becomes the substance of…

G That becomes the substance as far as the people inside are concerned, because that’s what they go for. Oh, they’re all off policy, oh.

M Yeah. I get it, I get it, I get it. I mean we can get that into the press. In fact that could be the angle that is run like PR Media wise. You know what I mean?

G PR Media is one thing. but there’s like your own group.

M Yeah, that’s what I mean by PR – inside PR stuff. That would be the way that would run.

G Right. Make a note of that. I want to add that (inaudible).

M (inaudible) Everyone fucking knows about this (?)

G I need a phone number, I need some way, because if I don’t have, if I don’t have our common friend, Danny, I have no means of contacting anyone, and I am essentially out here alone.

M Yeah, I’m a bit wary of the phone number, because the phone has got to be some sort of pay phone. But then …

G Yeah, but then … well I have a list of pay phone numbers (inaudible) call one and then call the other one. I told Joey that the other day.

M Right.

G But I want a whole damn apparatus worked out. Otherwise … you know, we don’t have enough capabilities. It’s too, it’s too damn cumbersome, and it’s also unworkable for me to always drive up here and to always meet in these kinds of environment.

M Right. I agree. (inaudible). You know my only hesitation on that? There may not be a way out, without creating undue concern about my not being there.

G You need to work out those sorts of situations. You need to work out a number of things so that people can get out (?) I can help you with that. I got (inaudible) … freaks out over PTS A situations and PR flaps, you can just use them. You know. your cousin is just in town and …

M Right.

G … he knows you live here somewhere, so you’d better go see him. His mother is anti-Scientology, so you’ve gotta go handle him.

M I understand. I understand.

G That way, we can continue to spring some people from

-16-

out of the organization if necessary. Also, we’ve got an address (inaudible). I’d like a phone number, a longer list of pay phones, vary them around…

M That’s good.

G Um, what do you guys want right now, what can I do? Let’s, let’s put the law suit aside. If you go through with the law suit, do you want me to talk to an attorney?

M Is that all right for you? The other thing is …

G And drop the girl(?)

M Well, you see, we’re still trying to get a hold of her.

G I see.

M We haven’t been able to reach her yet.

G OK.

M And frankly, I don’t know what to say other than we haven’t been able to get a hold of her. Danny’s been trying to get hold of her too. … still trying… What do we want from you?

G Yes.

M Oh, I think … from my viewpoint … I think I told you before … you are doing something right now. Just sitting here now gives me a different view. That is important. It is important.

G Yeah, damn right it is.

M Well, that’s something of value to me.

G (inaudible)

M Right

G That’s what’s needed, in my opinion that’s what’s needed with the organization. Which has the power to fuck everyone (?) I wish you could talk to Flynn. It’s unfortunate that he’s (inaudible).

M With regard to him?

G With regard to you guys.

M Oh, with regards to us if we brought a suit after discussions with him.

G Well, he’ll talk to anyone, there’s no problem on that, yeah, as far as people inside the organization. The reason is, that simply is the way attorneys work. You’ve got the client, you know, you’re the client of a bunch of attorneys. You’re CSC or CS1 or wherever you are. The client can’t go to the opposing side. I can. I can go, but they cannot talk. I can’t go to Barry Litt. He cannot talk to me. (inaudible) … Peterson.

M Right. I see. So. it has (inaudible). … would be the opposition. Did he draft this thing?

G Who, Mike?

-17-

M Yeah.

G (laughs) How did you ever get that idea?

M Well that’s what, that’s what- I never thought anything else.

G Oh. It’s one of my many attorneys. Have you got any cigarettes left? I – I really don’t smoke.

M Ah, not going to be too much longer.

G Ahm, but anyway, it is good that everyone talks. That’s the way I see a difference between the current scientology organization and a future scientology organization, is that the organization and it’s members are not afraid to talk to anyone.

M Right.

G And there’s no more of this, you know you talk to him, you can’t talk to (inaudible – sounds like ‘enemies’). That’s, that’s absolutely non-productive. Don’t you agree? I mean, you know, it makes people shrink to the point where well this guy’s a bad guy. Fuck, if you can talk to all the bad guys you, you’re a big being.

M So, I want to ask you a question. Why did you no answer that question about who drafted the suit?

G Do you think I should answer it?

M I don’t know. If you don’t want to answer it, that’s fine.

G You know why?

M Why?

G Because, if it’s shown (pause) someone did it for me for a favor. That’s the only thing. Simply because the organization will construe it as a violation of their civil rights. You know their on a civil right kick right now? Which has gotta hurt them. ‘Cause they’re the, you know it’s already been judicially stated that they’re the civil right violators. And they violate their parishioners’ civil rights. But, that’s why, just so that whoever did the favor is not going to be hurt.

M I dig.

G You know what if your- what if you walk back into the organization and they say, ‘what have you got?’ and they pull that out and they say, well ‘what the fuck is this?’

M I don’t take this shit back there.

G Good. Anyway so that’s just so that you can answer the question-

M OK, that’s fine.

G -it really doesn’t matter, does it. I mean the thing is what it is. Right now I will not pursue this, anything to do with trying to find you guys an attorney. I gather that the one attorney is not all that, hopeful.

M No, well he, he expressed concern, he said that the, the causes of action were the correct causes of action, but that the factual allegations,

G Yeah –

M They gotta be, we’ve gotta check them out and make sure they’re factual allegations and like-

G That’s what Mike has been saying all along, I mean, how much has the organization spent on PIs? How much have they spe-, how much has the organization paid Ingram?

-18-

M I don’t know.

G How much have they paid Peterson?

M I don’t know. I don’t know how much, I don’t know how much is being paid to Peterson.

G Are you able to get that kind of information?

M We may be able to, we may be able to get that. But see that, that gets into this question of is then that su- is that a suit that is gonna, is gonna win? Is that a suit that’s gonna, that’s gonna get us into a position where we actually come out on top-

G You can win-

M That stuff can be defensive. I mean (garbled) defense will be to that.

G We had to do it because we were being attacked.

M Yeah and it’s not, you know, it’s not illegal and uh da-da-do so I see-

G All you need is enough-

M I see that as being a very, a very, uh, it’s a grey area and it would depend a lot on the, the public opinion that was generated surrounding that, do you know what I mean?

G Well there’s two things- did you get, did you get-

M It’s a legally (inaudible)

G Did you get my, my note which explained that you can proceed, you can make an issue of corporate control without alleging anything… but-

M I don’t –

G But –

M I don’t follow that Gerry.

G Well, there are hundreds of lawsuits: that’s standardly what lawsuits are, you know, a lotta times a … lawsuits have that form. It is simply a disagreement over who has control of corporate funds. That is, that is simply the issue. They don’t allege that there was any criminal misconduct or illegal use of the funds for anything.

M But this is alleging that there’s criminal misconduct.

G That’s right and the reason for that is because with that, if you can get any of those things. then. yo- then the court can act immediately to freeze  the accounts.

M So, unless we have criminal stuff in here there is n-, uh, there isn’t really any basis for-

G It isn’t criminal stuff necessarily. Do you have information on th-, on the uh, on the, the boat in Clearwater, the boat in the-

M I know about the cycle. I mean I know of it.

 

G It happened, right? They paid a lot of money.

 

M Yeah but see like this says that that there was a scheme to compromise with drugs and prostitutes and you know …

 

G So, so there wasn’t. But there at least was a, there at least was a boat, and was there uhm, was there a closed circuit TV camera? Were they videoed?

-19-

M I don’t know. I presume so. I mean if, if that was the purpose of setting it up I guess that’s what was left. You know what I mean?

G Just to get into that – if you know that, that, that, that, took place, see you have to realize the way things are on, on the outside. You know, that gets in to, that gets in to ah, you know entrapment-

M That’s not a smart move; it’s like bad, bad business for the (inaudible word, sounds like ‘speak’).

G Not only bad but when a church is doing it, it looks ludicrous.

M Right.

G You know even, you see, –

M But –

G All the things that the, you could say that all the things that the, you know that I was hassled by PIs for some time, …

M Yeah.

G Ok? You could say well hell, shit you can have PIs follow anyone. Except the way the, court looked at it was, if indeed these things are true, then perhaps this thing oughta be tried across the street in a criminal courts building. And that’s the viewpoint that you gotta have, these things are illegal, you can allege the illegalities, you can – I don’t know what people inside know about what Ingram has done or what – even the, even those affidavits, authored by the people up at uhm, uh, Mayo’s group.

M Oh yeah yeah, the, the –

G You know? These are operations by PIs to discredit someone. The whole thing of Flynn. That, that thing in itself is a goldmine for you guys. Just to simply say, you know the organization funds have been used to attack and discredit and intimidate and harass this one individual. That’s the kind of stuff. Organ- and, and what’s happened in the organization, you know, do you know of anything about the use of PC folders. I was called by someone I guess it was Joey, before I went to the UK, uhh, at the end of June. Something about, you know my PC folders are being moved somewhere. And there’s a possibility of getting- … someone in your group knew about it. Someone knew that PC folders were being moved around. Someone knew that, that the, someone has been involved in the last two years in going through PC folders. Right?

M Wh- why?

G Have they? Why were my PC folders moved?

M I don’t know why they were moved.

G Where were they coming from?

M (pause) They were coming from CW.

G What were they doing in CW? I was never in CW.

M Dunno.

G That’s the ki- where were they being-

M The be-

G Where were they going to?

M That’s real circumstantial stuff. But I-, regardless-

G Yeah, yeah but you, you get the idea. You know what if someone’s been (pause) was someone held, has anyone been held in the organization. You know what’s the situation in there? Do they

-20-

do they have guys who frisk people when they come in and out? It doesn’t happen.

M No.

G So you can get whatever out you want?

M Yeah. I can get out anything that I want. People aren’t frisked when they go in and out.

G Oh, I, I was told they were.

M Who by?

G Joey. I don’t know if it came from Joey or Danny but in any case they went through a very elaborate, very elaborate, uh, way you know of taping things to the bottoms of fucking trash cans to get them out of the organization.

M (laughing) Oh, god. Well they’re a little more-

G You follow me?

M into that sort of shit than I am. I mean. I. I can walk in and out with stuff. (pause) ‘Cause in fact what, you know, what is it that I walk in and what is-, I, I don’t totally follow where that, where that leads.

G Well where it leads is simply to, number one, what’s the atmosphere inside. You know in a, in a complaint, yo-, you’re gonna have to state the facts as you know them. I don’t know maybe there are no facts. Maybe the thing in Clearwater never happened and maybe, maybe Ingram doesn’t even work for the organization. I mean the fucker threatened to put a bullet between mv eyes.

M You shitting me?

G Did you guys get the tape? I sent-

M Incredible.

G -in the tape. See I don’t know. I think. fuck I’m probably being set up. This thing here is hotter than a pistol. Anything I send you guys.

M You mean this, this draft?

G Maybe you didn’t read a copy of it, of whatever I sent in so there’s probably a shitload of ‘em around.

M No. I have the only one.

G You have the only one?

M Yep.

G That’s not what I sent in.

M Which? This?

G Yeah.

M Huh-uh. This is the copy. The other one’s stored.

G How about the one that the girl had?

M We got it back.

G So th-, so there is at least two.

M Yeah.

G OK.

-21-

M I know. I know exactly where they are.

G Good.

M There’s two copies and I know exactly where they are.

G Good. I-

M I mean listen, you know, we’ve survived this long –

G I know.

M It’s not like –

G I know (inaudible word) you guys –

M –not like you deal with complete –

G No not at all.

M – ignoramouses –

G In fact you know I’m in a more vulnerable position ‘cause I can be you know, I’m, I’m so visible, what if I dropped out of sight?

M (pause) Well, we’d lose you.

G Not necessarily.

M You mean we could set it up so that you just dropped out of sight –

G Exactly, you know it could be real beneficial. Maybe it can draw the organization into something.

M Like what?

G I don’t know. You know, do- do you have some old uh intelligence personnel in there?

M Yeah.

G Guys that think this stuff?

M Yeah.

G ‘Cause that’s kind of what I, what I see as uh, you know the intelligence possibilities are enormous. Because the organization is, is an intelligence operation. So it’s vulnerable. It exists on secrecy. Only certain things-, the need to know. So it’s vulnerable along those lines. An open society is not nearly as vulnerable. And it’s more open out here. You know what if they find out that, you know, – that there’s no real downside for me, but that they have, they’re vulnerable, and we’re not as vulnerable as they are. Now they-, they’re bigger because they got a lotta bucks. But I don’t see that that’s any problem in the long run. I mean your problems start when you get the bucks (chuckle, then full laugh).

M That’s very true. That’s very true. I mean that’s one of the things that we’ve gotta try and preclude because if we get into that position. We don’t want to be spending all our fucking money-

G Fighting more lawsuits.

M-handling fucking lawsuits –

G That’s right, you know. That has to be, see that’s not Scientology-

M You know, it’s like nuts. Right. It isn’t. You’re right. I mean that money-

-22-

G (inaudible) should (or shouldn’t) be spending its money on that, it can do something decent in the world. Something decent can come out of this. You know not just a lot of fat folders and sec checks and fucking broken families. That’s crazy. So, uh –

M So what if you dropped outa sight. I didn’t, I didn’t totally follow the, the progression there. What-

G I mean-

M What, what advantage would that be?

G It could possibly be a great deal of advantage. That I, I don’t know –

M I’m not, I’m not following that. I’m not – you mean we can maintain a comm line with you even though you were not as visible to everybody else in the organization?

G When someone drops out, it really excites people. You know what I mean?

M Like (could be ‘discipline’ or ‘disappear‘) where the fuck did Armstrong go, what the hell’s he doing now. and (fades) …

G Exactly! If that were to happen, then, then, ….

M But don’t you think that would just attract more attention to you and make it more difficult for us?

G I don’t. I don’t see why necessarily.

M OK. So, so what do you see in that?

G I don’t know everything that can be developed. But possibly, I see, I see the possibility of the removal of the PIs if they remove the PIs they’ve gotta set up their own informa-, their own internal information apparatus again.

M Uh-huhm.

G Right now you guys, it’s all done by the PIs. Who has the PI reports?

M They go to, they go to OSA INT.

G Where’s that?

M You mean what building? It’s above CMO PAC.

G Who’s in it?

M Who’s in OSA INT? I mean- I don’t kno-

G You got people in it?

M Possibly.

G Are they in a position where they can find out what’s going on?

M Not- not necessarily everything but ther- there’s definite lines.

G Are they in a position where they ca-, where they can get uhm, current strategy? Are they in a position where they can get PI reports? Are they in a position-

M Yeah we can probably, yeah.

G –where, can they find out who, who are the operating PIs currently? Can they do that?

M Yeah, probably.

G Because what if the operating PIs. what if someone can do some leg work and find out who the fuck they are and find out what the fuck they’ve done. Ingram is a rather unsavoury character. If you were to put together, and that in itself, if you were to put

-23-

together, you know a sheet on, on a, these people and let’s say you come up with some criminal pasts, lets say you come up with some real sleezy dealings, that in itself is a, is a tremendous PR leverage.

M Right.

G Now maybe you can’t, necessarily do all those things. Maybe CID can run a make on ‘em. CID asked for, you know, who took the photograph and give me the – get me a license number, I got a partial license number I couldn’t get the whole thing. 1DD or DD something. Couple ‘D’s in that one–

M Right.

G -plate. And I’d like to, I mean they can do it. They’ll run checks.

M What, now, on what basis will they do that sort of shit for us?

G I’m, a, well, anyone who talks to them is a witness.

M I, only, you know, I ain’t going to call no fucking CID and saying can you run make on this car.

G I can. I want a, I wanta know because I’m a witness. If I can, If I can get, get the guy, we can have his ass down there. I’ll subpoena the guy. That’s the kind of liaison where, you know, we can actually, you know, cause a lot of things to happen if there is that kind of detailed information going back and forth. If I know the name of the guy, we can issue a subpoena for him. Find. Find out what the fuck he was, he was doing there, on what bases he was photographing me, and it will back the fuckers off.

M And you feel like it would be best for you to drop out of sight in order to pull that sort of stuff off?

G No, not necessarily. I just see that, I know that that excites the organization when they can’t find somebody.

M What do you what to excite them, what, I’m a little lost on that as to why we would want to excite them about you. I mean if your our comm line-

G —You don’t have anyone else to, you don’t have anyone else whose life your potentially in control of out here, in a position such as myself.

M No.

G Someone who, someone who could excite them. I mean I have excited them right?

M Right.

G There’s been times when it was get Armstrong week. Right?

M (laugh) sure.

G Same thing could happen again. And maybe this time when it happens. They can be set up. And maybe you can get what you need.

M It could do something.

G Ya, it could do something. I don’t know the form it can take. But I know that, that if you got some, some Intelligence personnel in there, and you give them the idea. I mean there’s a lot of things that can be, that can developed into anything you want.

M Good.

-24-

G I, I think we should be a lot more secure than we have been, because I do not believe for a second, that, you know that the PIs do not tap phones.

M Right.

G I think that, that they do, and I also think that the PIs are not necessarily telling the organization what the fuck is going on.

M You think they may be like scared of leaks?

G Well they are possibly scared of leaks, sure because they don’t want to, if you were being paid what they are being paid, wouldn’t you want to maintain this thing?

M Oh. I see what you’re saying.

G They’ve got a vested interest. If you look at who’s got a vested interest in the law suits continuing it’s the attorneys and the PIs. You guys don’t. People at the top do, because that’s how you keep the troops in line, you’ve got to have enemies. They know it, and they play it. The, ah, the attorneys, you know, who recommends that they file more law suits and more law suits, they make you crazy. They are just blowing it, because no one, look, look at the stats in the last two years has anyone, in 3 years has anyone backed off from the organization? Have they had any wins. They probably tout them as wins, but give me a break. People on the outside, there is more documents out right now, there is more people willing to talk. They went after Mayo and crowd and what did those fuckers do? Now they are talking to the Feds. You know, whoever in their wisdom is running this thing is doing one fucking botched job, which is another why, you know you guys would be smart to move in, because you can’t keep driving away the parishioners forever and end up with any money.

M Right.

G Ah. you know, I’m in-, I’m involved in, in this because, you know, in a sense it’s where I lived. In another sense, you see, I’m very altered since getting out of the organization, because I don’t give a fuck any more. I don’t have the thing about life and death that I use to have. In fact I would rather welcome a bullet. In a sense it puts me in a rather powerful position, not that I’m looking for it, and that I would ever contemplate of doing it myself. But, ah, I don’t care. And if you guys can use the fact that I don’t care, and the fact that I write and the fact that I’ve disappeared and a other facts which you can use. I mean. I envisioned it at the outset that potentially you could ah develop an intelligence apparatus which the organization does not have currently, simply by scooping the Pls. If you had a lot, if you had some intelligence on Armstrong, you know, you could get a feather in your cap. And possibly move up in that way to the point where you’re let in on what the fucks going on. Or someone, you know what I mean, if suddenly, ah, you’re the only guy that has, you know, let say someone in the organization had the sense the sense to retain a mole somewhere. And let’s say that someone, we could set it up so that someone got close to me. Then you’ve got your intelligence network. And then back the PIs off because you don’t want them fucking it up. Then suddenly you’re getting funding, if you get them intelligence, that you don’t give a fuck if they get or not, but they get real excited about it. I mean the organization, the people at the top get excited about little, waao! you know this has happened or that has happened. Then they start buzzing about it. Right?

M Ya.

-25-

G Well you should give than something to buzz about. I don’t know the […] because its only me. I don’t know your, your capabilities or who’ve you got on the outside or, you know the, the communication limes by which it could happen. We could set the whole god damn thing up so that so that you’ve got someone from the organization in the same apartment complex that I live in,  that I moved to. You know what I mean? And, and possibly in that way you can a, have enough information so that it makes sense that your contacting the people to talk about it.

M Right.

G And becoming part of the top simply because you’re, you’re the guy who’s got it. And they’re going to depend on you. You following me?

M Yup. I’m following you.

G There are a lot of possibilities. How they can he worked out, I don’t know, but I know that, I know that if we determine to say, ok, well let’s keep the law suit on the back burner your attrition goes on as ever it goes on. And now let’s, let’s see what else we can do. I don’t know what can be done between us. Obviously I can get you, a, information as it becomes available to me. You know, and hopefully you can do the same for me. I mean that’s very valuable thing. Just to know, a, who filed or, a, photographed me is valuable because it can be used because you can get organization can be nailed for intimidating witnesses. I’m a federal witness, you can’t go around photographing me. So some stupid fuckhead in the organization decided to be a hero. I would like to know who it was. You haven’t heard anything about the manuscripts? Probably, my guess is that it would only go to the top, very top. But the fact that I’m writing a book, organization can’t stand people that write books. You know what they’ve done to people who have written books before. Same thing is true here, and the book is, a, they know that I’ve got data and they know I can string it together.

M Right. Maybe, ya, a maybe it would be a, a, –

G I don’t know either but I, but I know that there are a lot of things that can be worked out. I would kind of hesitate to do them [with]you, if we are going in different directions. But I think, I think-

M -I don’t think we are going in such different directions.

G -No. I don’t think so at all. I think that both, that both of us you know, want to see the organization transformed into something decent.

M Right.

G That’s what I want to see. Because when it’s something decent, I can deal with it. And everyone else can deal with it. You we can get on about life and you know what ever is valuable in life. It isn’t valuable to me to continue to battle that organization. But I’ll continue to do it. And I think everyone else-

M -Why do you keep doing it, why do you? Why do you. Why are you continuing to battle with it?

G Well, because of what is said, I mean philosophically I see that, that it has to be transformed. I mean, do you think after 15 years I can say OK and walk away from it. Come on, I put as much into it as you did.

M -Like you have a personal-

-26-

G I put my whole fucking life into that thing.

(START OF SIDE B)

M Right.

G To say that I am any less a Scientologist than anyone else is bullshit. But I have a higher commitment to truth then I do to some label which is at best a symbol of a symbol of a symbol.

M Ya.

G And at this point it, it’s becoming a virtually a meaningless symbol. What was a Scientologist is no longer a Scientologist.

M Right. Ya I understand that. That’s real.

G I don’t even have anything against Hubbard. Not a damn thing. I think that,  you know, I guess the ultimate thing about Hubbard is that he is exactly like us, exactly. Not a particle of difference. And he didn’t rise above the bank, and nor would you. But such thing may be possible. In fact since getting out of the organization more has happened, you know, mentally then the whole time I was in it, to the point where, like I said, I’m just radically altered. I was never like this inside. Come on, never even heard from me inside.

M I use to hear you screaming around the twin decks every now and then.

G A, rarely, you know, that’s a whole different thing.

M So what do you think, what do we, where do we go from at this point. Like we, we still got a, I mean I‘m, you said a couple of times regardless of the law suit, regardless of the law suit, regardless of the law suit, this is still something that, that I am interested in proceeding with if we can get it into a frame work where it’s something can actually pull off. I’m not interested in it if we are just going to end up just crucify ourselves by bringing a suit and I’m not going to be stupid enough to do that either.

G -I know, and again I think that it has a tremendous possibility and it really doesn’t matter about the [outcome]. It may to you in some fashion right now. But you know to think that cuts you off from Scientology or what you, or what you, you know what you consider important. God, it may even be a temporary setback, but that’s the most it can be. You know, I think grab the bull by the horns, sue the fuckers. I mean that the-

M But we got, we got to go into this thing with something that has good grounds.

G Exactly. And that’s why you guys have to come up with affidavits. And you should be sending me-

M That was the question that I had.

G Send me the fucking affidavits.

-27-

M Now who, from who? From our guys?

G Well, now we’re talking. Your guys, yes. It would be real smart if your guys who worked in the organization, whoever decides to do it, whoever says I’ll take the fucking plunge. You, you know, Mike, Mike said we’ll drop 7 or 8. He also said, you know use 3 or 4 outside. In other words get one, get a  get an affidavit from Schomer, because, because Schomer, Schomer can give you the money he can say this amount of money was sent to the profit corporation. Schomer can say 30 million in a given period. That’s big bucks, ok. So Schomer, Nelson, maybe someone else on the outside. I don’t know. I really don’t know. And let’s say you had a few guys on the inside. Guys who’ve decided, a, I’ll take the plunge and you don’t have to throw all your eggs into that basket. And-

M –What, and what, what do we want on these affidavits from these guys. I’m still-

G -you want anything that is[, you] know about monies of the organization number l going to a profit corporation, ASI, number 2, controlled by ASI.

M Going to ASI. controlled by ASI. OK.

G Ah, by, yes, controlled by ASI. Use of organization monies, a, for whatever reasons. You guys can come up with reasons. Ok, the boat in Clearwater, these are the only things I know about in the last couple of years. The Clearwater deal, the frame up of Mike Flynn, a, anything you know about PIs used, a, to harass individuals. Anything you know about, about a, money being spent a, for what you would consider, anyone would consider non charitable purposes. You know, to destroy people. You know the control, where is the control. I don’t know.

M I’m seeing what you’re talking about.

G Ah,

M Now these guys have to have like personal knowledge of this shit or what? From what I understand when you write an affidavit you got a like, finding guys that had-

G Do you have any personal knowledge?

M Some, some.

G Then why don’t you go out on this limb.

M But I don’t – I’d rather not. I’d rather not. I mean as soon as I, as soon as I were to write an affidavit, then that is going to go somewhere with my name on it, wherever it goes, to our attorney-

G -Don’t even sign the fucking thing. I just what to get the-

M –Oh, I see-

G -I want some affidavits so they can be. so we know what the fuck is this. What are the allegations? You know, cause I’m, I mean kind of getting from you, well shit the organization is fine, it’s not doing anything illegal. And I’m sitting here on the outside, knowing that they want me fucking dead. And that I was threaten by Eugene Ingram that he is going to put a bullet between my fucking eyes. I know that they are up their eyebrows in it, they must have paid. How about the Flynn thing. How much did they pay-

-28-

M –Ya, but do we have to, do we have to find someone that has personal knowledge of that in order to get an affidavit of those things?

G How much was paid to Ingram?

M I don’t know that data yet.

G Who paid?

M I presume the attorneys paid him.

G Ya, but it comes from your money.

M Right, so then it would be how much is paid to the attorney. I mean that’s what we would want to know.

G Who gets an accounting of, you know, your board members, your fucking board members. Your guys on the board and you can’t find out? Those are the people who should be signing it, who should be doing it-

M -ok I’m not asking about whether they can find, but whether they need to in order to be able to do this. Do you what I’m saying it’s like-

G They can allege it. They can allege it. They don’t even have, they can allege it.

M So they don’t have to like, they don’t to have you know the document sitting in front of them-

G -They can fucking say the organization destroys the document.

M I see.

G But you can simply say, you know upwards of millions of dollars have been paid. And, fucking attach a god damn, if you attach Freedom and say the whole thing is a crock of shit, that, fucking, you know, a crout has to look at that seriously. You know the fact that, you know, how about, how [aboutqhole] mailing list. Can you get mailing list? Who got Freedom, who much was paid for Freedom, who was it sent to? How about these issues being put out on, on [people] who gets them. How much money is, is spent on that shit?

M That all going along this same line of-

G -the fact that organized, number one there is, you have to say there is a, a conflict, a disagreement about control of funds. Number 2 we’re requesting that the assets be frozen immediately. And the reason is (knocks on something) this and this and this. Organization, supposedly this religious organization is spending non-profit funds to destroy someone’s reputation. They are paying private investigators millions of dollars to destroy someone’s reputation. Fab-, with fabricated evidence. You can allege that. I have a lot of faith in Mike Flynn. you I really don’t know one way or the other if the Tamimi thing is bull shit. But I’ve also spoken to the US Attorney. Deputy US Attorney in Boston and everything I get from anyone is they are going on the bases that its bullshit and will uncover it sooner or later. They are trying to extradite [Tamimi] right now.

M That would be a real PR coup.

-29-

G Yeah, but I’m saying … you guys can allege it. Now also, I mentioned to Joey last time, I don’t think that anyone has to get into a frame of mind where if they don’t file this thing two days following the indictment … like they have to take a big loss on it. I wouldn’t … you know, within your group I would let them know that, you know, the timing is not that critical,  it’s more sensible that everything be well done and well prepared and well thought out.

M Right. I completely concur with that. I mean …

G However, it’s … you know, I would not delay years ….

Strange voice comes and asks something.

M No thanks.

G So, …

M Ah, yeah.

G Just so that the boys inside, don’t take a big loss on oh fuck we didn’t do it, and you know, the indictment’s happened. It can be done, but it should also be … I think that something should happen within the next couple of months. You guys should be fuckin get affidavits. You you, probably the boys – some of them aren’t writers. Right. It’s a real pain to fucking … I know. And I’ve written … But it’s all of these things, it isn’t just  organizational, there’s all the personal conflicts and there’s all the egos that are all involved. and the whole thing.’

M Right.

G And, but, you know, get me what they can … and part of what I talked …

M What do you want to do with them?

G I want to fucking see what, what can be done, otherwise …

M You want to sit down and just kind of go over it, and go over it …

G I want to fucking go over it. I want to have them and I want to give them to an attorney. I want to talk to the girl and I want to set up an office and I want to set up a separate corporation. I want to set up a corporation which is, which will act as outside the organization, a clearing house for improving conditions inside. Just the same way that OSA is currently requesting all these knowledge reports set up an office somewhere and hire the organization’s own mailing lists, get knowledge reports on the guys at the top.

M I dig.

G With the intention of … there’s so many things that can be done …

M I dig

G And I want to set up with her, you know, an office, so that so that, you know, you guys sit … you don’t all have typewriters, right?

M I don’t think there’s too much problem getting access to a typewriter, but …

G Well, I don’t know …

M Yeah, but everybody doesn’t have a typewriter …

G Exactly.

M That’s true.

-30-

G And, and you can’t be sitting at your desk typing up an affidavit …

M That’s very true.

G You see, so you’re gonna need someone, who you know, you can give me a rough draft and you know we can rework it, and send the damn thing back to you and type the signature.

M Good.

G That’s the kind of thing and that’s why I want to see her, because, I told her I’d say, you know initially I would say I think 20,000 bucks for an attorney and we’d need to set up, you know, a clerical office, somewhere.

M Yeah.

G I can’t continue to do it, you know, my wife can’t continue to do it.

M Right.

G But I can do it if we have some funding. You know I stay completely fucking broke doing this shit. I don’t …

M Well, I’m not making anything out of it…

G No, I know.

M That’s for one day …that’s for one day.

G Is there any information on what the guys at the top are paid? The boys in ASI. What is the control of ASI?

M ASI, ASI, I mean I can find out what, what the guys, CSI people are paid. SAI, I dunno. I mean we could find that out from Homer.

G Yeah. The way it was back then. They were making a lot of money.

M Well, I doubt that that’s changed. I mean we could get that stuff from Homer.

G Oh, …

M That’s a line that could be used, via, via you maybe, to get that stuff from Homer.

G Are organization funds being sent elsewhere? And you could say, well it’s all legitimate because those are the agreements. Who the fucked signed the agreements? Where are the agreements?

M Right.

G Where, where, you know … your Board members are they just figureheads just like some jerk that they pulled in and said here, and just sign this whenever we bring them around.

M Well, well I don’t know whether to characterize them as jerks, but …

G No, but they, they, they’re treated like jerks [… ]I’m saying.

M Well, ev … you know …everybody’s a bit of a jerk, or gets treated like jerks right now. You know what I mean …

G Simply because the attorneys are running it?

M Yeah.

G That’s what’s fucking …

-31-

M I mean like …

G I got it. I can grab it and hell, enough of this, fucking bullshit, the organization being run by attorneys. That’s bullshit.

M Oh, yeah.

G Anyway, anyway, organization funds are going elsewhere when they ought not to be. Let’s just say that, you know, CSC could do something, or that … are the Board members knowledgeable enough of legal things to be able to find … where the fuck are the minutes kept. What are the agreements? Where is the … where is the … who represents CSC, who keeps all this shit?

M Right.

M Well, I don’t know that … I don’t know that they need to be legally knowledgeable to be able to find out where that stuff is. You dig what I’m saying?

G And then find out … how do we get a copy of it.

M Right.

G Let’s find out what the agreements are. And let’s find out who signed them, then let’s go talk to who signed them, and find out the circumstances under which they signed them. What are the agreements?

M Good.

G Do you know the way I figure that we are finally ultimately going? Probably the organization will end up suing all of its former attorneys, who have given you guys fucked legal advice. Just fucked advice, because it’s cost you a lot of money, no return and the organization’s public relations stance is worse than it’s ever been. You know, all the PIs have brought on everyone with all their wisdom, are potentially a bunch of indictments and ah, a lot of ill will. And that’s malpractice and anyway you spice it.

M Right.

G And, ah, look at the possibility of finding out, how many board members does it take to form a chorum. And, the form of the resolutions, and, ah, …

M Whether they have to be a meeting, or whether someone can resolve something and pass it around for signature …

G Well, … if

M That sort of …

G If you have board members, do they ever have a meeting. That’s the law, and what if he says, well, you know we never have meetings, and it’s all bullshit and I just sign things. You know, if it’s all a facade.

M Yeah, I get it. I get it.

G But if it isn’t a façade, and the board can actually do something and if the board members have a vote, maybe one day during a board meeting something can be said, we need some new attorneys. We ought to get an assessment, or how about just a, just a resolution drafted and signed by enough people, so that it can happen. And then you’re indemnified. Fucking, the fucking board decided to get some more attorneys. And then other people do the… you know contact the attorneys, not necessarily the old ones that

-32-

are all entrenched.

M Mm.

G You know, independent attorneys, that … you could look at it like, you know, all of our legal things are … let’s say that the agreement is that all legal matters are handled by CSI. Number One, it’s probably illegal. Number Two, it sets CSC up to take the fall. And they don’t have control of the legal position. Right. You’ve gotta find out who deals with the attorneys, does the board deal with the attorneys? Who does?

M Well, the board doesn’t deal with the attorneys.

G Who does?

M The … well, for the most part there’s … you know what OSA is?

G Yeah.

G It’s the guys in OSA that deal with the attorneys.

G OSA is … do they develop the legal strategies?

M Yeah.

G Or do they get directions from up above? Is CSC independent or is it not? It’s not.

M I don’t know, it depends which context that question is framed, you know …

G In reality, in reality.

M I don’t think that you could really say that any of the churches were independent, any of the, you know what I mean …

G Right. Now, they allege independence, of course. Like if I were to sue CSC or if I were to … they allege independence[,] that’s the way they get around their various law suits. Oh. that’s a separate corporation. Right?

M I … I don’t know, Gerry. I don’t know the answer to that question. I presume that …

G Is WISE a separate corporation?

M From which? From …

G From anything?

M Yeah, as far as I know, that’s like completely separate.

G But do they operate separately or are they underneath. Are they subject to Sea Org personnel coming in and telling them what to do?

M Well, presumably they would be subject to that. I, you know, that would be the way that I would see. … sure if someone … if some missionaire walked in there, they’d sort of stand up and salute, you know.

G Exactly. So that’s not intended. You know a missionaire can’t walk into Joe’s Corner Grocery store and say, listen guys, give me 10 percent of your take.

M But isn’t that ecclesiastic?

G Fuck.

M I mean …

G That’s the differentiation you guys got … you see, you

-33-

guys are bought. You know, when I was in the Sea org, we never even fucking had the word ecclesiastic. That was … that is the bullshit that has been created in order to allow the organization, or allow the group at the top to retain control. And people buy it. It’s like, you know, we never even called it the church when I was in. It’s all kind of PR bullshit that people are buying, party lines, and you need to make a very distinct differentiation between what’s ecclesiastic, because then you’re talking the tech, whatever the fucking tech is, and whatever the philosophy is. But when you’re talking about, well, I can go in and order you to do whatever I want, open up your books. Right? And not only that, but I can go and rip off whatever I want, and I can send you to the RPF. It’s hardly ecclesiastic.

M OK. Well, OK. Good. I mean, OK. That’s the view of you. You know what I mean.

G Right.

M That’s what I’m saying about that external, that external look at things is something of great value …

G What … (Starts chopping in).

M Because it points out things that … that have come so

G Ingrained

M Yeah. That it’s like, don’t see them anymore. Like, you know, we’ve always been sitting with trees all around you, and you say hey, what’s all these trees here, and I say, trees?

G Yeah. What trees.

M What fucking trees are you taking about? Hm. anyway… I’m a little concerned about …

G About getting back?

M About getting away.

G Yeah.

M Yeah.

G OK, we’ll go after …

M You’ve already given me a lot of shit to talk … you know, to talk over, and think about …

G There are so many ideas, you know. it’s just … it’s endless. You see I can’t control … I can’t control your group.

M I know you can’t, and there’s no way we can put you in a position to control it, because I’m not gonna sit here and say well, you know, we’ve got this guy here and this guy there and da da da da da. Because it’s a … that’s a pointless, breach of security in my view. You know, why do that?

G No. That … it does make sense. There are certain things that are very helpful to know. I don’t need to know who your people are, but there are certain times when I need to know, you know, can you get this information, can you get … can you find this thing out. Um, do you have anyone in Clearwater?

M We can get stuff from Clearwater.

G OK. Do you know where my pc folders are?

-34-

M All of them? No.

G  Any of them.

M Probably we could find those ones that were being shipped before. Ah, …

G Do you know why they were being shipped?

M No.

G Or where they were being shipped?

M R I don’t know why they were being shipped.

G Do you know who ordered them shipped?

M No.

G Can they find those things out?

M Possibly, yeah.

G Oh, make a note … you know, anything people know about, about, the pc folders. Anything, that’s, you know, that’s the misuse to which these things are put. Any culling that has gone on in them. Any information that has gone to PIs. Do you … who deals with PIs? Is it the OSA people?

M Well, yeah. Bec … the way that the PI line works, as far as … well, you know, on the ones that I have any understanding about, goes from OSA to the attorneys to the PIs.

G Peterson the main guy?

M Yeah, he’s the main attorney.

G Jesus, he’s such a dumb fucker. Whoever … He’s just a political, you know. He just kind of maneuvers and sleezes his way along … he’s a fucking shitty attorney. He really is very stupid. He …

M I’ll make sure … I’ll make sure we don’t take our thing to him.

G Oh. You’ve met him, hey?

M Yeah. I’ve met him.

G He’s fucking dead (or dense). I don’t know. I mean. But he’s a sleeze, you know. so he’s kind of fading into his niche of power by sleezing and by not being the guy to take the fall on all the cases they lose. Right? But he’s …

M He’s still there.

G the fucking guy.

M He’s still there.

G Such a dumb shit too; I licked the hell out of him.

M Well, listen.

G You know, even lay that kind of information out. Who has first hand knowledge of that?

M Of which?

G Of that use of the PIs. That that’s the line, you know. Money’s paid to attorneys, and they in turn deal with the PIs. That information is given to the attorneys? Does … has anyone got one instance of anything from anyone’s pc

-35-

Folder being told to an attorney or to a PI. Anything…

M OK.

G …Anything that you could think of that is just, it’s either corrupt or it’s rotten or, or even borders on illegal, and illegal does not necessarily mean the commission of a crime, it just means money being used for a wrong purpose. And …

M That’s like civil … civil as opposed to criminal …

G I guess this is a civil matter. The organization … you know, just to say that number one, the organization is in control of people who are not controlled. Number two, they grab power by ex-means, by however they can grab power. Number three. the current board of directors are mere figureheads. Oh. what … you know… Number four, you know, so much money has been paid to do such and such. Number five, ah, you know, money was paid to PIs. 250,000 dollars, to, ah, entrap people in Florida. You know, so much was paid to, ah, you know, you can just say, you know, millions of dollars have been paid to PIs to harass and frame viewed enemies of the organization. All those kind of things that are just … are not the way you want []it to be. What is the organization then? And then get the damn affidavits written. I don’t care if they hang them right, but just put down into as sensible as form as possible whatever information the people who you predict could potentially sign the complaint. And …

M Do we want the guys who would actually be the plaintiffs to do those … The guys, who are … well, they are obviously going to be the same people.

G Yeah, but on the other hand, there are other people on the outside …

M Right.

G Homer Schomer, maybe Mayo … I don’t know … ah, John Nelson, perhaps other people who, who have been the subject of harassment or who know of organization monies being used improperly.

M Well, you may have to help us with those ones.

G I will help. I want … to also find out about money and whether or not someone wants me to talk to um attorneys.

M OK.

G And get me phone numbers, a phone number. I’ll only call if it’s absolutely desperate. Also. you guys should set up a contingency. I think, some … figure something out, I can be the person if you want, so that if someone is held inside, that they’re able to … you know, that there’s some means of getting that information out. Because, you know, no—one wants anyone to get hurt.

M That’s very true.

G So figure out some …

M Very true.

G … Contingencies like that, so that, you know, every 24 hours if there isn’t a call every 24 hours call the Feds.

M OK.

G Something, you know … I don’t know what form it’ll take, but I think that we should review if you’re smart …

-36-

G I’m freezing in here.

M Me too. Let’s get …

G I think it will be real smart to start developing things along that line.

M So, I’m not going in that direction.

G That’s fine.

M What are … What I want to do, I’ve got quite a bit of shit here to talk over here, go over with the other guys, and ah, I’ll get in contact with you using the numbers that you already have for right now.

G Yeah, call my place.

M Give you … you’ve got those ones from Joey, right?=

G I’ve got three.

M I’ll give you …

G He’s got a …

M One of those. I’ll give you one of those.

G Good.

M You can then go to that phone, you know, and I’ll tell you half an hour or whatever. You can call me there and then I’ll set up and we can meet somewhere else. And then I come next time I’ll bring another list of numbers, too.

G OK.

M Further away.

G OK. And … and some means so …

M Yeah, we’ll get the PO Box set up, and …

G And the number so that …

M Yeah, I don’t see that there’s any prob … I don’t see any problem in … in setting it up so that you could call a number, like even … even in Joey’s area, just call that number and leave a message for him. Not you, but…

G I understand.

M … But under a suitable guise, you know, your mother called and left a message and wanted you to call her back or something. And, he wouldn’t even have to go to the phone or anything. He could just have the message passed on like…

G I don’t know his name, but anyway …

M No, but that’s fine … that’s fine … we … I am … I haven’t ….

G I don’t even want to know … By the way you’re just some blonde guy, right? He had a long, black beard, that’s the only thing I remember.

M Right. Well, I appreciate that.

G Good. Good to see you again.

M You, too. Bye bye.

Notes

  1. This document in pdf format.
  2. This document is Exhibit C to Declaration of John G. Peterson (22 January 1986) filed in Armstrong 1.
  3. Scientology submitted a partial transcript of this meeting in their 1023 submission to the IRS: Exhibit III-10-Q: Transcript of meeting between J and GA on 7 November 1984 (1993).
  4. This video was shown at trial in Christofferson. See court transcript (Part 1) and (Part 2).