Meeting of 30 Nov 84
M How’re you doing?
M I don’t have much time either.
G That’s okay, shoot. How things going with you.
M Pretty good. I have some questions that I need (tape goes out for a few words) to take back to the guys, cause we’re like, wanting to roll now.
M Like wanting to move on this. The first thing I want to ask you though is did you tell Samuels and Corydon about us?
M You didn’t say anything to them about us. You mentioned to me last time that you’d talked to them and I’m, we’re concerned that this is getting out of hand. You know, too many people?
G. Yeah, I don’t think there’s any (unintelligible few words and tape goes out for a second) is right now. Corydon called me and said he heard that, that I might know something about a take over and I said I know absolutely nothing and then I said however, I think it behooves each of us on on the outside, to realize there has to be a transition at some point and that sooner or later there’s gonna be a shift and we should all be thinking of how that should indeed be happening and what it should be like afterwards and that each one of us should be creating that so I said, I have no specific knowledge, I have none whatsoever, however, something has to happen, so I let them know that, yeah, they can always talk to me and that I dealt (unintelligible few words due to tape) varying particular positions outside the organization;obvious1y every time I talk to those guys you know. There’s an exchange of information but they know nothing the I could deduce about you guys. They contacted me cause they thought I’d know something. Now there are a lot of people who have been told. Not by me, but, you know, you guys won’t be able to keep the lid on it very much longer.
M Told by who?
G Well, Dan’s sister told at least 3, may 4 maybe more people
M We know about that.
G (unintelligible few words)It’s obvious that, that’s the only lea that I know of of any significance.
M Okay. Just don’t you tell anybody without us knowing who you’re going to talk to and what you’re going to say.
G No, no in fact, in each case, they contacted me to get information and I said, listen. (bad tape for a few words) I really don’t have any, so I tell them I don’t have any, however I’ve also told them that I’m glad you contacted me because I consider you, you guys part of the network and frankly, you’re, you both ought to be thinking, you know, the status quo can’t exist, what are we gonna do, so everyone that I’ve talked to I nudge along that direction but as far as names, no one will ever at any time get a name out of me.
M Okay. But it’s not just names, just…
G Or even the existence of you guys.
M Right, exactly
G You know, probably lot of people know. Probably, I would say that, in the Scientology world, people are so bored and they are so starved for excitement that they pass this shit around like, you know like…
M Okay, but we just want to make sure that you’re not passing around to anybody unnecessarily or doing anything that would damage our security
G So, in each case, like with Dave Jordan, Dave Jordan heard a particular rumour, I went out and saw him. Dave Jordan heard a rumour that Dan may be a, double agent for the organization.
G I went out specifically to dead end that thing and I let him know, listen, Dan simply doesn’t, Dan doesn’t have anything going with the organization.
G And, and I let him know that every time you talk like that you put his life at risk, because the organization has a lot of heavies working for them, no one on this side’s going to hurt Dan
M Right, that’s exactly right, okay, that’s fine. I just wanted to make sure that was all cool.
G I do, I do what I can. I’m as sensible as I can, it’s on my mind the whole time, so take it from there. By the way, no one will ever get any names, any communications, any times, any dates or anything out of me, that’s, I’ll go to prison before I ever talk, okay. So you have to know that, because they’re wanting to depose me every couple of months. I’m simply saying, no, “anyone I talked to, that, that has nothing whatsoever to do with this lawsuit, the causes of action in my lawsuit began in 1969 when I was enticed into the Sea Organization and it ended in 1981 or they actually continue on because you guys have continued to harass me. But you…
M Not us, hey!
G I’m telling you what I would tell them in deposition, but they don’t get anything else, go ahead.
M Okay, so that, that’s fine, we have an agreement on that point.
G Right. And you guys also have to have your agreements worked out between yourselves too, like, I don’t know who knows I’m involved but, I’ll deny it!
M Okay, well, we haven’t said anything either.
G Good. Good.
M I mean we’re the ones that…
G The only reason I would deny it is for your guy’s skin, there’s nothing with me because I don’t give a shit
M Right, okay. Now. On this suit, we’ve gotten some legal advice on this, we’ve been doing quite a bit of work to gather the data and there’s a, there’s some points that are real concerning about this on specifically the three criminal charges in there, there are 3 specific things that are laid out as criminal charges and our advice is that if we don’t have the facts to support that stuff, we’re not going to be able to make any sort of TRO stick in a hearing for preliminary injunction.
G What about Homer Schomer and what’s his name? John Nelson. What I mean, Homer Schomer, here the guy was locked up, spat on, sec-checked, and …
M Yeah but, wait wait (spoken same time as above)
G and then you continue on with that and he knows about 3[0, thirty] million dollars in a period of 6 months transferred to L. Ron Hubbard’s account.
M Yeah, but we’re talking, yeah, I got that, we’re talking about the specific criminal things, not civil, cause there’s a lot of stuff in here that’s like civil stuff, I’m talking about the criminal ones there’s three major ones, the first one being Krentzman, now…
G I’ll tell you what, I’ll tell you what I’ll do, let me just back up a little bit, I think I’ve got an attorney and the guy is fucking tough.
M We’ve got an attorney.
G So are you ok on attorneys.
G Well fuck, go, go for it then.
M What we’re concerned about is on these points, we’ve been checking these out to find out what data we can find, now …
G Let me talk to your attorney
M Well we may arrange that or he may arrange to get in contact with you but, you know
G You have a lot of faith in him?
M Yeah, but what I’m concerned about right now is somehow or another in this, in this complaint there are the three things that are listed down?
M Now, from us checking…
G Listen, his complaint is based on information which he assumed you guys would have, take them out, just…
G Whoever wrote it. Simply because, number one, the thing about Flynn, I don’t give a fuck you know, Flynn is not guilty for one thing and the second point of that is, you don’t take money which is supposed to be used for charitable purposes and use it to defame and scandalize (unintelligible word or two)
M The point, the point I’m trying to get across is that, that’s not criminal that’s the, that’s the civil complaint (unintelligible two words) and that would have to be proven.
G Show me the line you’re talking about
M It’s over here.
G Where are the…. We didn’t have to prove a goddamn thing, We didn’t have to prove shit, we just have to allege it.
M Yeah, but if we’re, like, this is a little different sort of circumstances, like, if we allege that, right, then we’re not in the same position like where you were, where you had a whole trial, you were like, you know, you even said yourself that, that the position you were in was, you know, the Church is not believable to anybody, it’s like, you know, it’s got a very bad reputation, that put’s you in a position where the burden of proof moves over to that side. We’re not in that position because we are the church.
G You are the church but you guys are dedicated to the cleaning up of the church, and if you can simply name, these are the guys who have control, they should not have control. We are the church and we should have control, and they have used this money illegally, because simply because they
should not do that. It all his to do with expenditures of money nobody gives a fuck about criminal things, it is all, whether or not the money is being used correctly, whether or not the people who are in fact in control are doing it legitimately.
M Yeah but, see the thing is what, what, our advice is, is that in order to make the injunction a hearing for a preliminary injunction stick, there’s gotta be some like criminal stuff, that would get it to stick. If we don’t have the preliminary injunction, we’re going to be up shit’s creek.
G Listen, here’s my understanding of the way you guys are in the organization, what, how do you propose to then do that, I can’t. I told you what I can do. You know.
M What I was really asking you is, is someone obviously put this together, whoever that may be, someone put it together and it would appear that someone had data, we aren’t able to find that data, we’ve found stuff that shows that, you know what the church has, but they’re not true, well then, do you have something, do you have something that we don’t have that we could use to support those things?
G Well, I told you you can use Shomer. You can use the fact of anyone you can use the fact of anyone that you know of being locked up. That’s illegal!
M There isn’t anybody locked up Gerry, that’s the problem.
G I was locked up.
M Have you got an affidavit on that?
G I’ve got fucking ton of affidavits, I see, I don’t know where your guys access is, in the organization I don’t know.
M Well, we can get, we can get a lot of shit, and we’ve been working on this for like a couple of weeks now.
G Do you have affidavits? Do you have affidavits?
M Of criminal stuff, no, that’s what we’re talking about.
G No, of anything, listen, anything, you know, like, all those things which we needed to document, even, damn policy violations how much are they paying to private investigators? Who runs the organization, who’s in control? That’s the kind of stuff we’ve got to have the board members, how does the transition of the board take place if you don’t know that, if you guys are in positions in the organization where nothing is known,
M Well that’s not the case.
M But the point is, is, we feel and our position is unless we have something that’s like strong, that we can move in with, and make a TRO stick and then going for a hearing and have it so that we can get that protection, we’re going to be real fucked. We’re going to have real troubles if we can’t get a preliminary injunction that sticks in the hearing.
G Yeah, okay, here’s the thing, let me talk to,
M We’ll get thrown out.
G Let me talk to your attorney, I want to see whether or not, number one the guy understands and number two if it’s only a 2 month deal anyway you know, he doesn’t have to dick around for years and go to a trial on it and if he does you guys just back out down to whoever signs it backs out and says, and says, well, I signed what I signed and, you know, sorry you guys deluged us with paper, too bad, you know, I’m not leaving the organization or I am leaving the organization or whatever they decide.
M You mean kind of quit at that point, if it wasn’t going the way we wanted, to, just pack it in.
G Why not? I mean if that’s the way it’s got to be, it only takes like a handful and so what, who the fuck wants to stay in that god-damn joint and you cant…
M well I do
G I know you do, but, you know, see I don’t know if it’s like if the scene is fine for you then there’s no reason to change it, and if it’s simply a motivation of greed then you guys are going to run into a lot of fucking troubles anyway. But if you think that that, you know it’s really fucked the way things are run, we shouldn’t have all these goddamn law suits and we should be able to go where we want, and talk to who we want, the fucking thing should make a lot of sense, and not only that but we shouldn’t be charging people the earth.
M That, that is our position.
G That’s the motivation, then fucking go for it because it’s a golden opportunity. Now, I don’t know what, I don’t know what’s happening up in Canada, it’s still happening, the thing has not come to fruition yet, they’ve got a day, they’ve got tomorrow, who knows what’s going to happen, they keep talking, the last thing they got was talking about bank accounts. CID’s going ahead, the fucking documents are coming out in the Armstrong case, the goddamn it’s happening, something is happening.
M Yeah, well, we’re we’re wanting to move on this thing
G Good then I need
M We’re gathering together a
G Good, then I need number one, I need your affidavits, get the fuckers to me and get me, let me see the attorney. Because, obviously the attorney is in a situation where he’s telling you something, he may not even have the goddamn concept. Are you following me?
M Yeah, but you, like
G By the way I think I got an attorney and I think that we should together $20,000 bucks pay the fucker up front, set up a damn office which will handle those fuckers. Because he’s not the of guy who’s going to be kicked around by anyone.
G If you got one then I think that, then I’ll end off with this guy
M Yeah, we’ve got one
G Okay, then I think
M We’ve got one but what I’m asking you. I was simply asking you from having checked these things out, if there was something else that you have?
G (talking same time as M) What are the three things, what are the three things?
M There’s nothing to show us that
G What’s the other?
M Warren Dirnden
G Okay, those are the, okay
M And then Flynn.
G Okay, well Flynn we can put together. You know how much was spent on Flynn?
M Yeah, but it’s…
G It doesn’t fucking matter, all that matters is, you don’t spend 2 million dollars to PIs to commence … a scandal like that, it is god-damned well patently on its face illegal.
M We’re talking, yeah but we’re talking about, that’s not illegal, it isn’t illegal, we’ve already checked it, it’s not illegal to do that, that’s the complaint, that’s the complaint, that we will bring, but that’s not a criminal matter, that’s not a crime.
G Let’s put it this way, there could be people going to jail over it.
M Well I know that
G You, you, it’s a civil law suit.
M Yeah, but that’s what, it’s a civil law suit, that’s true.
G All you have to allege is that, number one, so many you know, how much was spent by the organization to, at the orders of these people…
M But alleging things, but alleging things, that’s fine, that’s going to take the whole trial, just like, well, you know, I’m talking about the concern over the preliminary injunction. Alleging things is fine and alleging things will work in certain cases
G All you have to do to have them act immediately, that’s all you have to do.
M What is?
G Is to say, that’s all that needs to be said.
M Yeah, but a hearing, then we have a hearing for the preliminary injunction and it’s like (raspberry sound)
G Yeah, but you know, you got a lot of things going for you, if you follow on the tail of all these people being indicted at the top of the organization, and the fact that, that
M We never know when that’s going to happen, that keeps like being, today, tomorrow, you know…
G Hold on, hold on, listen, we either gonna go ahead or we’re not okay, now I don’t quite know what you’re asking me because I don’t have the information on those three things. Now, here’s …
M Ok, that was all I was asking you, if there was something else you had, something you could get for us on those, that would give us a stronger position.
G Well, what I’m telling you if I were to get the affidavits on the outside from Schomer and from Nelson. I don’t know if Nelson’ll even talk to me, but I’ll give it a try. And beyond that, want to talk to the attorney. No, there’s no one around aside from Michael Flynn who has an understanding of this whole fucking thing like I do and that’s a fact.
M Okay. I mean is, is Flynn willing to help us on this?
G Well, what the fuck do you think, we talk every day about it. But that’s not for you to report around…
M No, okay, okay.
G Because I have no intention of hurting Mike Flynn.
G But, I’m telling you, he’s behind it a 100%, absolutely behind it.
M Right, okay.
G You know, we could use his affidavit alone, his affidavit along with, you know copies of the, of what they’re doing, there’s no proof against Mike Flynn, there’s nothing, it’s a bunch of hollow bullshit and people were paid-criminals! Fucking guy in jail on a murder, on murder being paid for
M Okay, Okay
G for testimony to defame
M Okay, listen, I understand all that, we went over that before, I was, I had the specific question that I was asked, the one about, do you have any other data specifically to support any of those things that we are unable to get.
G Are you able to get money?
M what do you mean money?
G How much was spent, How much to attorneys? figures, I don’t know,
M Yeah, we can get the figures
G Give them to me, ask for them, ask for them, ask for them, I gotta have fucking stuff relayed, it won’t work if we
M Who you going to relay that to though
G We’ll put the fucking scene together-who’s doing it, who has the scene, who, who, do you have any people who can analyze data do you have a goddamn data bank, do you have someone, someone who’s the courier, is a fucking network set up, we gotta do it otherwise we, fuck it you know, all go off and pursue life.
G We gotta have a fucking thing, I need to know who were the fucking assholes who photographed me and get me the number of the car. If you haven’t got a guy who can walk around out in the fucking parking lot and tell me the license…
M Hey, wait a minute, wait a minute Gerry!
G Hold on, now listen to me, because…
G I’m not attacking you guys!
M You are, you, you …
M You come out here and give me a bunch of shit, like,
G. I’m trying to fucking build a fire, we can do it, I’m with you a fucking hundred percent, but we can’t if we let fucking individual egos and all that, the time constraints and all the other things get involved. I know you guys are under pressure, I know it’s a pisser getting out: I’m trying to work with you, but, I feel, I gotta be frank, if you don’t get from me what the fucks on my mind, what good am I to you, I’m trying to give you data as rapidly and as accurately as I can …
G I have a lot of questions, I
G you know, boy if you can get somebody who can fucking write
M I understand (said same time as above)
G write this shit, give me reports, I’ll, fuck we can analyze them and, and go back in for the other specifics that are missing and we can,
M Okay, Okay I understand!
G And we can start getting affidavits typed up and we can talk over legal shit with the attorney because the time is right and believe me, I am of a philosophic mind, wherein it really doesn’t matter one way or the other when it’s done or even if it’s done, but when I’m with you I kind of try and do speak my mind, I’m not after you, I’ve a great deal of admiration and respect for you because it takes a fucking lot of courage to even walk out of the goddamn joint. And to talk to me because I’m not exactly number one on your personality list. You know, I badly grate people
G but I happen, by sheer default, I’m in the position where on the outside at least, a lot of people talk to me and I got fucking good legal mind, and I can help out and I’m not, I know the guys involved and I’m not going to back down from them.
G I can help you, but…
M Right, that’s what we want.
G. I can’t help you if, you know, if…
M. Well, I’ll tell you something, I’ll tell you something, there is a little, this is making me feel a little better what you’re saying, because there’s generally been some concern that what’s going on is that, that, you are in a position where you’re giving us stuff, you’re feeding us data, quote unquote, being a coordination line, but all that’s happened so far is we’ve gotten these things and we check them out it looks like well maybe we’re going to get shafted if we do this and there is a little concern that, that, we’re being set up on this thing, you know, first of all it was coordination with, with these other guys and
G Listen, Listen, Listen
M You know, here’s a suit and you guys go in there and file a suit, you guys go in and argue about this and…
G You happen to be in a position, you happen, you, it just happened that I was in a position where I heard that there was a group inside and then things went from there, no one has any motivation to hurt you guys or to use you guys at all, in fact I am absolutely willing right now to say, listen, let’s just end it you know, go back to, to, go back to the status quo. I won’t hurt you guys, I won’t talk about you, we’ll just end it. I’m absolutely willing to do it. On the other hand I do this because I think, you know, I like to talk to people, I like to talk to you guys and the fucking thing interests me to a great degree, it’s extremely exciting, the possibility that exists here. But not only that, but just in, in, my life, and …
G In life in general, I approach things differently. I’m just you know, you get what you get. I’m not going to fuck you over. I’ll support you as much as I can, you know, you know I don’t have any money, and you know that I’m pretty strapped just litigating my own case, but, I’ll do what I can and that’s all you get from me
G I never, in all the time I dealt with him, I’ve never found Mike Flynn to lie to me, or to, or to be anything but decent. Not once. You know, he’s like I am, he’s, you know, he gets pissed off every once in a while, a lot less than I do…
M What, okay …
G So all you, and that’s the whole way these [t]hings work. It’s just on trust, that’s all you, that’s all you’ve got. I don’t think anyone is setting you up. It may happen that you’ll feel like holy fuck, we’ve been set up, that’s just the way life is, it pisses you off, you can’t live in a cocoon in this goddam place.
M I understand that, all I, all I was telling you was being up front and telling you what, why there was some concern , what there is concern about.
G Exactly, you guys have got a goddamn committee, am I right, there’s a committee?
M Right, there’s a committee,
G It’s a guasi-democratic committee. I know, and it’s fine I think that, again, relay it back, whatever happens, happens and it’s okay with me, I couldn’t give a fuck if you-guys turn me in I really, you know, I’d be a bit disappointed but I’d get over it real quick because right on the other side of that disappointment there’d be some other great, great mound of excitement and you guys live in an exciting time and you got a shot at it and frankly I’ve only met two of you, but I like the two that I’ve met, I like Dan and and I’d like to see the whole goddamn thing ended & I’d like to see it ended in this, you know somewhat exciting fashion. A lot of things are happening, Canada, I don’t know what the fucks going on there, but there’s a news black out, they’re not talking, so something’s going on, whether or not it’s a failure, who knows. You know CID’s proceeding, you know, the documents
M Have a lot of, definitely should (talking over G) right
G The documents have stirred people up. I’m only one fucking guy out here, that’s it, but I do what I can.
M But that’s not true, you’re not just one guy. You’re not.
G That’s right because I have…
M. You’re not, you’ve got comm lines to all sorts of people,
G Just by default…
M talking to the CID all the time, talking to the Canada, talking to all these guys you know, well…
G Exactly, I’m talking to them by default. No one has, there’s no Che Guevera around, no one’s risen to the occasion…
M Well I’ll you something, what I can’t figure out is, if there is some connection between your relationship to us and your relationship to them, from their side, you see what I mean?
G You mean are they using me?
G Oh no, ah, nobody’s given me the slightest indication of that, you know, every time I talk to CID about, about you guys, they say god have them talk to us, you know, they want to talk they want to know about the way things are. That’s about it. I don’t have anything to promise them, fuck what am I gonna do, you know.
M. So their interest in you is primarily from the viewpoint of your docs?
G No, their interest in my is primarily the fact that I, I happen to have particular knowledge and I happen to be, to some degree a clearing house of information. People contact me and they
talk about this and I happen to he fairly well connected. That’s about it, so, so they kind of, they use that, but I’m not a, I don’t know, you know, what status I am as a witness as far as they’re concerned, I know the language an: I can talk it, that’s why they talk to me. And if they have a question they talk. I mean…
M I understand, I mean, you’re obviously a good witness, I mean
G I’m a witness and I have, and I have documents, documents, but they’ve never talked to me about the documents under seal other than I gave them, I talked to them about this, do you know what a window of vulnerability is?
G Well, in law, there’s a certain thing, which is kind of like a window of the law, and there’s a particular, like a window of vulnerability, is at a given time, it’s like something opens up you know, like a window in space and you’re vulnerable at that time and so it just happened that this judge, remember Judge Petris who let the goddamn documents out, by the way I just heard on the news that he, that he retired today.
M He retired?
G Isn’t that funny? He released all these other docs to CID, and then copied them all, during the releasing time, and then they all sealed up again, and the CID made off with all these documents…Just hilarious.. because ultimately, you know, you can’t stop the truth from coming out.
M No one’s going to, there’s no liability to that?
G No I don’t see it, I know you guys are concerned, but I, I don’t see it at all, no liabilities and everything that happened, every time the organization makes, goes to another court, that thing, alone, you guys could win it on Armstrong alone.
M what do you mean?
G By simply saying that, that you’re Scientologists and there are these documents under seal and frankly Scientologists will never get to see them; the organization has spent how much Armstrong, it’s all gotta be accounted for in the various cases, so you can say, ok the organization, they spent 93,000 dollars on PIs to push me around, it’s a fucking crime to assault me, I got your crime, I was driven in to. Tried to drive me off the freeway, no fucking crimes, I’ll give you an affidavit.
M Gerry, I mean, Ok I don’t know, I don’t know anything about that, how, how, it’s like, that’s a little incredible to me, they drove you off the highway!
G Oh, no, he tried, first of all he got…
M Who, I mean
G just turned right in front of me, he’s a PI, I took photos of him, I got a fucking bank of photos and you’ll note did you read the, did you read the result of the hearing by Judge Breckenridge?
G Did you notice, oh later on, I sent you guys in those documents that was on Ingram, and it was during the time we were looking into the Flynn thing. Judge Breckenridge slapped down Peterson because he said, that, all the testimony regarding what the PIs did went uncontradicted, in other words, that’s it, that’s, that is the issue–it’s been litigated, it’s right in print, that’s what they did,
and my wife was with me the whole time. We were the last, day-in and day-out.
M Yeah, the thing, yeah okay, I understand that, I mean obviously was one of points that I had, your suit, when you were fighting your suit, it was like, you know, a little guy against this big organization that, you know (funny sound) and that tends to put you in a somewhat, you know, sympathetic type of position, you know, the big, it’s like a big corporation vs some individual.
G A big corporation’s one thing, but bullies is another, that’s the whole, that’s what (word) is…
M But regardless of that, yeah, but, that’s, one of the concerns is, we’re not going to have that positioning. Some way or another we’re going to have to establish, we’re going to have to establish the same sort of you know, whatever you established in your trial where…
G (spoken over M) yeah, I’ll tell you how you establish it
M You became believable (spoken over G) and you became like, even, even things…
G You know because I am fucking believable not that I became believable, I never had…
M I don’t became I mean you were believable!
G Yeah exactly!
M You were believable on things that
G You know why, because the organization lies.
M I don’t understand how that makes you, yeah, I guess I do
G Look, if you’ve got one guy that’s telling the truth as he sees it, and it’s obvious and you know that the organization is lying, Mary Sue was caught in a dozen lies; and and you know that the organization has bought professional muscle to push around its adherents. Guys that it, you know, you kind of don’t, if someone says, well, your founder’s full of shit, your founder sucks eggs, you don’t go out and hire a PI to push the guy around, that, you guys are so fucking indoctrinated you have no idea what the world’s like out here. You might do that, you guys are operated like a fucking Russian communist regime, how can you buy muscle? Come on. You all got to toe the line, you all gotta believe the same fucking thing, you all (words drowned out)…
M Yeah, but the point of that, the point of that is, is, well, lying for the cause, I mean, lying for the cause, is, I consider this cause is something worth lying about, I lie about it every day.
G Maybe you do…
M It’s a matter of, well…
G I know, I know
M So do you, I mean, its’…
G But there’s a difference, there’s a fucking big difference…
G Because …
M That’s what I’m saying is, some way or another we have to establish that so that that becomes our positioning, because,
because it is a matter, it is a matter of positioning (tape skip) because you can go in and you can make allegations and they would tend to stick better if you’re (viewed?) the right way.
G Just remember that, just, yeah, you’re right: there’s going to be a certain amount of PR attached to this, but just remember all the positioning bullshit that the organization has involved itself in and all its superior PR tech: its PR sucks. But don’t think necessarily that the way things have been handled by the organization is, or even by me or by anyone else, is necessarily the way to go. You guys have a situation of being very courageous individuals who are speaking out to right some wrongs. That’s it. And you’re saying that the organization is using money that you guys worked for…
G …in a wrong manner, and you’re requesting…
M I understand that. I understand that.
G So the positioning is sim…I’ll tell you what the positioning is, the positioning is lies vs. truth: positioning is courage vs. cowardice. That’s your positioning. They lie…
G They lie…
M Well, some way or another…
G Of course, they try it against all the, you know, the (Big Six?) have provided false testimony to federal agencies, but it doesn’t wash, it doesn’t wash with federal agencies…
G It doesn’t wash with anyone. And that’s because it’s already known that they lie.. Well, you’re saying: I am fed up with my organization lying. I’m here to clean up the god-damned act. And the way…
M I got it. In that case, we have a better chance of making our stuff stick, right?
G Well, you have to build these things and you have to have people, you have to have real names on the bottom of the damned thing…
G …for one, and you have to have people who are going to be willing to talk to press immediately, who are going to know what the fuck’s going on, and better have their language together, you know, and better be pretty fucking instant from the party line in there. Because if they’re spewing the same party line, which everyone sees as a bunch of bullshit, you’re in for a lot of trouble. But if you say we’re not, absolutely not, we are here to save Scientology, we are not here to destroy it, that again is another lie perpetrated by the organization. who the fuck wants to destroy? That’s just another lie. They lie.
M Uh, that’s fine. I thought you were saying, we’re here to destroy the organization and that’s a lie. I’m fine…
G No, you guys…
M I got it…
G You’re right about the positioning but it isn’t a big thing. It is just a dichotomy. You’re suing them because 1) you’re honest and you want the facts known, number 2, they’re spending money on illegal things and here they are: l,2,3,4,5. They spent so much money to go after, attach the fucking, attach the god-damned issues from Freedom. Go after these…
M Right, so so…okay. Some way or another, some way or another, you accomplished that. That’s what we’ve got to accomplish.
G That’s right.
M I mean, you accomplished that sort of positioning. You accomplished, you accomplished a lot! (From 512 to 729 on the counter at the end of Side 1 of the tape is blank)
Start of Side 2:
M …And you would even say, now it puts me in a position where you know, I’m kind of stuck with that, because I did accomplish it.
G Listen, I’m gonna give you, I appreciate that, let me just give you one word of advice: in my opinion, it is necessary, not because of everything that’s happening up in Canada, for you guys to act fairly rapidly, and that, it’s a very logical reason. The Armstrong case brought to the surface a great number of documents, right?
G Documents which show fraud. Right. You agree?
M Well, I haven’t seen all those things…
G Okay, they show…
M I don’t know what they show and what they don’t show. I have no idea…
G You saw what the Judge, you saw what the Judge said. I mean, be realistic, you saw what the Judge said about Hubbard…
M Yeah, I’ve seen the Judge…
G …(couple of words blurred) pathological liar.
M …I’ve seen the Judge’s order.
G Well, that’s kind of the way it is. Now, what ha…that…
M Yeah, I understand. That puts a…
G …that opens up, on my fraud count, I have a fraud case, just about everyone else has a fraud case…and they now have the documents. Fraud, a statute of limitations for fraud runs from the date, I believe it’s a two-year statute, and it runs from the date of the …
G …discovery of the fraud…
M Right, I understand…
G There could be a run on the bank…
M I understand…
G And I think if you move (the guys?)…
M I understand what you’re saying…
G And nip the god-damned thing in the bud before that happens, otherwise you’re all going to be left…
M well, well, what I…
G …holding a very empty bag and one…
M Well, we don’t want that!
G Exactly, and one…
M We don’t want that!
G …and one with a lot of indebtedness attached to it. More law suits…
M Yeah, well, we’re not interested in that.
M and that is why we’re, like…
G …that’s why you guys…
M …a little, let’s move…
G That’s why if you guys frankly want to save Scientology, fucking slap those guys down!
M Yeah but, okay. I understand that entirely. We’re…that’s… we’re moving in the same direction on that…
M Moving in the same direction on. The point is for us to take a look at this and make sure that we are moving in the right fashion, and not doing things that are gonna fuck us up. Now, I know you can’t guarantee what’s gonna happen, but there are certain things that you can do to try and…
G You can be real sensible about it..
M Yeah, be sensible about it…
G Okay, but, listen, who are the fuckers who photographed me? I mean, do me a favor, you’d write these things down. Maybe you already know them…
M I know them. I’ll tell you something, straight up front, Gerry?
M Right now?
M I didn’t even bring the license plate number.
G You have it?
M Straight up front. Yeah.
M And the reason I didn’t bring it is what I told you because I came here to get some data to take back to the Committee because there was concern about the fact whether you were setting us up and therefore you…
M …and therefore, why should we give you more information.
G Listen, who’s the most concerned? Who’s the guy in your Committee who stirs the most shit, is it you or someone else? Who’s the guy who says…
G Because I want to fucking talk to him! He could go on for weeks about “We’re not sure if we trust you, Jack”. Well, frankly, I’m not sure I trust you either. “Yeah, but we’re not going to proceed unless we know if we can trust you.” Yeah, but there’s no way you could possibly know! You got to perceive (couple of words). You know “he who doesn’t go out on a limb doesn’t get an opportunity to fall off.”
M Right, OK. Well. I think that will…
M I think that, that what…
G Listen. Hold on
M I think this will help handle that point.
G All I’ve done is get (couple words). In any case, let me ask you a couple of things. I would like to, it’s difficult for you to get out. I’m only going to be here possible until December 18th. See, I’m going to be gone for possibly three weeks, be up in Canada.
M On holiday.
G Lot of things. You know, I’m getting, my wife and I are splitting up. That’s for you alone, don’t make an issue of it inside the organization, okay? Everything’s fine! no problem.
G And she’s cool and she’s protected by you know by marital privilege which will exert…What?
M By marital privilege? I don’t know what that means.
G Anything that we’ve ever discussed.
M Oh, I see.
G …she may not talk about it.
M Have you, have you discussed us with her?
M She doesn’t know about us?
G Well, she’s known for some time because she was there when Dan told all of us.
G When Dan…she knows no names. She knows nothing else. She knows that occasionally I go off to meet people. She doesn’t know who or anything.
M Is she a risk any risk to us?
G Well, I don’t see she’s any risk to you. You know, everyone’s a risk. That’s what life’s all about. You run towards the risks, just go after them, grab them by the fucking throat. Uh, get me those guys names, please, whoever the three were. Now, one of them, do you know who they were?
M No, I don’t know who the people were.
G OK. Cne of then had reddish hair. He looks like he’d be in his late twenties. Good looking kid. Fairly tall, 6’1”. About…
M OK. I know what you want on that.
M The problem is not knowing what you want.
G Blond guy, I guess these guys were all security personnel. Blond, blond hair, okay, those are the two that I ID’d definitely. I’ve seen them around the organization.
G I gotta, you gotta go, I gotta know about your attorney, you know, are you guys just gonna take it, what do I have to do, I need to know have you got any money, are you really going ahead, should I drop it with the existing attorney, do you feel…
M Yeah, don’t you bother about the existing attorney, right now. We have, our guy is handling this. We figured out, we even figured out who we can make the external Trustee. We have some work or that. I mean, we’re like…
G OK, if there’s an attorney and he says questions, legal questions to bat around, he should call Mike. The only problem with him calling Mike is, Mike’s not going to know who the fuck he is. Are you following me?
G. So I have to know who he is in order to make an introduction. Because without that, there’s a problem. Because the guy could be, Mike’s going to think “Who the fuck is this guy? Setting me up. He’s with the organization.”
M I understand, I understand.
G OK. Is he retained?
M Why do you need to know this?
G Why the fuck can’t I? Like I say, nothing goes beyond here. Because I need to know what the fuck is going on!
M Well, see, that’s where there’s a slight difference of opinion, is that, we don’t think you need to know everything that’s going on with us. There’s no reason for that why? I already told you that we have an attorney. We have someone that’s been helping us with this and moving along. That’s enough. You don’t need to know anything more than that.
G Like I say, he should he has legal questions, he needs someone that…
M He has questions about the data. About what data we have. That was the question.
G (pause) OK. Um, do you guys have anything you want? Are we through?
M Oh, no, not quite. You remember earlier you told Joey and Danny about putting together some docs? What do you think you could do if we could get ahold of Ingram’s letterhead?
G I wouldn’t want to touch it with a barge pole. Don’t need to.
M Why not?
G (pause) I don’t even want to discuss that matter.
M. OK. I…
G Not for this? I can’t see anyway. You know, if we were in to death, if that was our aim, you know, we wanted to snuff some people and really mess them up good, yeah, you could do some things, but no, I don’t have any idea on that. I think that you know, if you guys are going ahead, then I think just go for it and kind of let it shake out the way it is.
M You don’t see anything in, in trying to push this a little harder. Because that’s what we sort of got on the original idea and then it died.
G The FBI report.
M It sort of [d]ied. Nothing ever eventuated from it although it was talked about a number of times. Now…
G (murmurs) Can you get the letterhead?
M Yeah we have access to, we have access to a lot of stuff. There’s no question that we have access to it. It’s a matter of how do we utilize it. And what do we put together.
G You know anything more about the  situation?
M Well, we checked all that out on this thing. We checked out all the stuff that these guys have got. Everything we checked. We checked all the affidavits, the photos, everything.
G Do you have a complete affidavit?
M All those guys? Yeah.
G Even the (one word) one?
(Someone speaks in Spanish, ending with “quarter”.)
M I don’t speak Spanish
S [Stranger] Uh, you have one quarter?
M No man. No quarters.
(S says something else and then voice fades off in distance)
M Drugged out of his mind.
G Well, what do you think? Did we come to an impasse here?
M I don’t think so.
G One of these great psychodramas.
G I’d like to, I don’t know, do you need me saying this shit? You know, you feel like you got the whole thing under control, like, I can ease out of the picture?
M No! You want to ease out?
G No! But I feel like I’m, you know, kind of like a (chuckles) called up here to find out whether or not you can trust me. For what?
M Well be that as it may, that’s what occurred today. And…
G I know, and…
M You know, that’s like…
G I understand. It just seems like I…
M I am in a bit of a strange position because I gotta go back and if I go back and give what really is wanted to be heard type of thing? It doesn’t work. And that’s all there is to it.
G Is there a top dog? Is there like someone who is the fucking force behind this sucker? Is there some…
G Yeah? Are you it?
G Is he the guy who has to be convinced? Because I’d like to talk to someone, you know, um…
M What do you want to say to them that you haven’t said to me? I mean, anything?
G Yeah. I really want to know where does it sit with the attorney? Is the guy gonna go with it? I mean, you know, where are the affidavits. God, gotta have the fucking things so they can be set up and structured.
(Someone asks for any extra change)
M No man.
G I got it. I got a little extra change. I hope. (some conversation I can’t get) Not a lot. just a couple of bucks. Okay? You got it. I wish I could give more.
M Listen, I have a question. I asked you about this before and this is sort of an additional thing that, what is the real scene as regards us not getting shafted by the agencies even if we took over, or if we make our move?
M Can we get any sort of a guarantee that we’re not gonna than get shit on by them?
G I think your, I think you guys should, should talk to them and let them know what the fuck you are doing and that you intend to clean up the god-damned place…
M But what do they say to you. I mean you told them about us, obviously. What do they say to you about us. I mean, see the trouble with that is, if we reveal ourselves to them directly, that’s it. We can be subpoenaed, we can, you know, they can do whatever they want with us at this point.
G There’s definitely a certain amount of risk in it, but they’ll meet you under any circumstances. And no names. But obviously, they’re looking for they’re looking for information. CID has its eye ons, solely, so they’ve said, David Miscavige and L. Ron Hubbard. Maybe the…
M So what do you, what do you, I mean, you’re the guy that deals with them, that’s one of the things you do, what’s like your opinion of it? Where do you think they would sit?
G Let me give you my opinion of them. My opinion of them, all that I’ve dealt with, is that they are very realistic and very decent people. You know, they’re probably hotshot American University boys, who got plucked by Uncle Sam out of the graduating class of their respective universities and put into law enforcement. CID is, I mean, they’re gun-toters. They’re like FBI, but they’re enforcement. They’re not like, you know, all the other FBI cases that are now going on. You are all looking at defensive actions. See, you deal with a bunch of attorneys. FBI does not, to my knowledge, currently have an investigation going. CID does and, you know, various other agencies do, but… my opinion is that what will happen is that a transition of power will occur and then your attorneys will be dealing with, as the organization attorneys have, the various government agencies. It’ll just be a transition. You’ll simply have to fire your old attorneys and have to look at whether or not they’ve fucking mis-represented you, whether or not they should all have their asses slapped for mal-practice, ‘cause they’ve taken a lot of money and you guys haven’t won a god-damned suit.
M Listen, I, I…
M Yeah, I have a question. What if he says, like they obviously know about your dealing with us to some degree. Are they ever going to like move on us for this? Like try and get us into deposition about what we’re doing with you?
G No. I don’t see how they can. They don’t know who you are.
M But they could ask you.
G Yeah, well, I’ll never tell them. You know, until you guys say “Well, I want to talk.” I mean, that’s just the way it is. I’ve told them I don’t know anyone’s name.
M Okay. It’s a point of…
G I see no downside regarding your, regarding those people for you guys. They do, every one I’ve talked to in Justice and CID and everywhere, says, the place is operated like a business. So, there’s going to be, there’s going to be a transition. It’s gotta change. It cannot, it cannot continue, there’s mounting opposition to it. And it can’t…so, it’s gonna change. And you guys, if you take over, are going to end up dealing with the government agencies exactly like the organization does now. The difference being, you’re not going to spend a billion dollars to come up with nothing. You’ve got to clean up the ship. It has to be! You can’t, you know, the organization cannot continue being so fucking righteous.
M Can we go, can we go into this with a pretty fair expectation that that if we were to actually accomplish our takeover, that we wouldn’t then have to be fighting tooth and claw with those guys? (pause) Just like when you said you don’t want to take over an entity which has nothing left to it except a bunch of debts, we don’t want to (GA oh no! no!) take over something that has nothing left to it except a bunch of government agencies all over our back going “WAAA”.
G Oh, No! I’ll tell you this. If you guys were to say “Listen, we want to take over, we want to clean it up, we’re willing to make our books available to you, we’re willing to open the whole damn thing up because we want to know like you want to know, we want to know where every god-damned penny has gone, and we want to know what the fuck it’s been used for. And we want to know if any of our former parishioners, specifically Miscavige and Co. or whoever, has some villa in Switzerland. I mean you guys…
M Now, would we be liable for anything that had occurred previously? Do you see what I mean? If we’re taking over, now we’re the Church, do we then become liable for, if there is stuff, do we then become liable for that? Are we then gonna be in the hotseat about the stuff.
G I don’t see how you can be. I don’t see how you can be. What cases exist? What if something has happened? You people weren’t the organization then. You have the statutes run on virtually everything from back in the Mary Sue days. And if you’re into something more current, then I think, again, you guys have solved that problem just by filing the law suit. I don’t see that as any problem. I really don’t.
G You know, there may be individual things. Let’s say one of your guys hauled off and hit someone, you know, and was an asshole, maybe he’s gonna have to handle that. By the way, do you guys have any information on Miscavige hitting people? Do you know where John Axel is?
M No, No. I don’t know where Axel is now.
G Well, Axel was held and Miscavige belted him. There’s criminal activity.
M Well, okay.
G I’m telling you…!
M That’s fine. I understand…
G Don’t pass that sort of stuff off because I give you good god-damn ideas. Someone can come up with an affidavit. Somewhere John Axel still exists.
M I see what you’re saying. I thought that was a digression off the other thing.
G No! You’re asking me what I knew about things. I can come up with, uh, the guy in England, what’s his name, Jay Hurwitz wrote some document which listed out a number of people who were hit, Roger Barnes by Miscavige, and he hauled off, somebody, you know, this guy was a little runt, and the guy fucking…
G Now that’s important to you guys, because you have to get across to the immediate hearing Judge what can be expected.
M (laughs) That’s exactly what, that’s exactly what I was talking about on this thing…
G I’ve been saying it all along, where you guys can simply say…
M I got it. I got it!
G What’s the danger you’re in now!
M I got it.
G You’re in fucking danger.
M I got it. I got…yeah, I duplicate that. That’s fine. So…
G (having tried to interrupt several times.) Listen, I’d like, I’d like, oh…
M Can you, can you change…I have a question.
M Can you, I don’t know if you’ve ever even brought this up to the CID guys. Is it re, you know, would they even answer that question?
M What would their position be?
G Their position would be to work with you guys! It would be that. You’re swapping, what you’re swapping is “we will work with you. We’ll open our books.” …
M And that would give us therefore immunity for anything that may come, see, there is a liability to that. If we open our books, we’re now in charge. …
M …what if there’s something in there, are we then, do we then become liable for that?
G No! Why? The guy…
M Because who else is the head of the corporation now?
G Because the guy they’re going after. You are there to patch up a corporation which has been vandalized, which has been ripped off. How much bucks does CSC have?
M OK. I understand. I got it.
G You’re, good. I want to talk to people. I don’t give a fuck who. And I don’t have a lot of time. You know. I’m gonna be around for 18 more days max.
M Ok. Like, uh, we’ve been trying to get a hold of you a bit, because we are moving ahead. It’s not like all stalled or anything. We’re moving.
G Let me talk to the attorney. You can call me in for just god-damned information.
G From then, I want to talk to him and I want to put him in touch with Mike Flynn. ‘Cause he’s gotta get the legal. You know, I deal with this thing on a couple of levels. There’s the minutiae, which we’re talking about right now, little details, which we’re talking about right now.
G But then there are the big broad god-damned legal concepts, which are important for an understanding of the whole thing and the way it can resolve. There’s a lot of the minutiae which I don’t know about. But the ultimate legal concepts I grasped pretty quick.
M Okay. And Flynn could, could definitely…
G Flynn is, is a fucking good attorney. And he knows it. And he can help the guy.
M Could he even like…well…
G Provide affidavits?
M Yeah, well you already said that.
G Certainly provide one on the, on what’s the situation with him.
M Okay. Yeah, it’s probably a good idea.
G Me, I need to know…
M I mean, somewhere or other, you’ve already accomplished it, so you’re to some degree, you’ve won, you’ve won a suit. So you’re to some degree have a viewpoint. You have managed to accomplish something so that’s, that is definitely worth taking into consideration. You know what I mean?
M (amusement in voice) I mean to be totally frank with you?
I read the, I read the Judge’s order. I find it a little unreal to believe that that you really felt that you joined Scientology because of what LRH had represented as his background. I don’t…
G Ah, fuck! Didn’t you?! (very fierce)
M No way, man!
G Oh, did you think that, that the guy was a pathological liar.
M All I knew was that, the reason I joined, and the reason why everybody else that I know, which is why I even brought it up, they look at the technology and it makes some sort of sense to them. They go, “Oh, this looks like something that I could get interested in.”
G Yeah, but what’s the li…well. What keeps you in the Sea Org for $10 bucks a week, because you think…
M It’s the same thing. I still believe the technology…
G Because you think L. Ron Hubbard is…ah…
M …is workable. Because it works for me.
G Right. Because you, because you… You’re supposed to… It’s the purpose of every post to help Ron clear the planet, to help Ron do such-and-such. Is he really cl… the fucking guy lied to you all.
M (starts laughing) The tech works for me! Ah, anyway, that’s a…
G It’s important to someone definitely on the outside. You know, and all of a sudden one day you might find, I’m not saying that you will, all of a sudden you might find you know, when you realize, you know, for fuck sakes! The guy did lie. Now let’s really examine what, you know, what exactly happened. Okay. I’ve done these god-damned levels. Am I really OT? (long pause) (when GA starts speaking again. is voice is low and flat, after being high and fierce) I don’t know. I, I (clears throat) you know. I thought it’s a bit of a shame about Judge Breckenridge, at this point, that he’s being attacked by these assholes. But he’s, you know, the guy’s a courageous, he’s a strong, he’s a funny man, and that’s about it. It was extremely fair, and all this shit about comments he made about about them is so much horse puckey. More bullshit, more lies by their fucking scurrilous attorneys. It’s just pure, god, it just disgusts me that attorneys are that fucking low. The organization’s got them. I gotta go.
M Me too.
G Listen, if somebody can’t get out on a regular basis, see if um, I don’t know! (mutters something) See if Joey’s got a (word). And, just as an aside, tell them that this is absolutely the last time they get to check me out to see whether or not they trust me.
G After this they can go fuck himself. Tell whoever the kingpin is that.
M Okay. We’ll be in comm. (GA is at a distance: I want to talk to (several words too distant to hear). Pass the word.
M OK. Drive safely.
G Yeah, bye.
- This document in pdf format. ↩
- This document is Exhibit D to Declaration of John G. Peterson (22 January 1986) filed in Armstrong 1. ↩
- Scientology submitted a partial transcript of this meeting in their 1023 submission to the IRS: Exhibit III-10-Q: Transcript of meeting between J and GA on 7 November 1984 (1993). ↩
- This video was shown at trial in Christofferson. See court transcript. ↩