Scientology’s transcript: Illegal video (November 7, 1984)

TRANSCRIPT OF MEETING BETWEEN J AND GA1 ON 7 NOVEMBER 1984.2, 3, 4

(come into picture together and sit down on a park bench)

GA Good place?

J Yeah, I think so. You like it?

GA Yeah…Fine

J (Extending hand) (Inaudible)

1:00:00

GA Yeah (Inaudible) (shaking hands)

J Been a while, been a while.

GA I Ah, I have to leave by 2:30 (looking at watch) so we’ve got that long.

J Wow

GA Ok? That’s OK.

J we’ve got a lot of ground to cover. That’s OK. we’ll get there.

GA That’s OK. We should be able to cover everything really quick.

J Yeah. OK. First (inaudible) Kind or like dealing directly now and I’m going to give you what I’ve got and I’ll get what you’ve got and take everything back to the committee so everyone’s in agreement and everyone knows everything.

GA Good

J sound good with you?

GA Yeah.

J OK. I’ve got a bunch of stuff that you requested so we can go over that.

GA Good

J Compiling a little agenda here. And you had a message for me. (Inaudible question)

2:00:00

GA Well I had … I just more or less put together our perspective on this whole thing because it’s been going on (inaudible)

J What

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GA Verbally in any case let’s go over that now ‘This is Mike’s perspective. He sees the whole thing…

J Mike and you went over this?

GA Well, this is how Mike sees the legal battle is going. What he sees there’s no other way. Like, it is going to happen sooner or later. You know. Cause there’s – like a last skirmish going on and that’s about it.

J You think it’s going to be wrapped up pretty soon, you mean.

GA Yeah, well no-one really is getting too concerned about it any more. Their credibility’s shot in all quarters. There’s no.. There is no credibility left. There’s… They’re simply being bled by some unscrupulous attorneys.

3:00:00

That’s all that remains. However, about the details. Ah, his feeling is that a couple, handful of right people with affidavits can end it. Just end the whole damn thing.

J Wow.

GA He feels (inaudible) and all the things that are going on, you know it will take a little PR to do it, but it takes someone standing up and saying hey listen, troops, you know, there’s what’s going on. He sees it as that. But he remains absolutely confident about Canada. I don’t know what the latest you have on Canada, but yesterday and today I guess it was criminal contempt, that they brought against the prosecutor…

J Right. I hadn’t heard how it came out.

GA Casey Hill. I don’t know on that. You know, it’s sort of the last brushfire.

J Right.

GA It’s that kind of a thing. They say they’ve got such a tight case, they’ve got 29 people they’re going to indict, indict, and then will begin the warrants. They’re going to have them served over here. They’re

4:00:00

going to have them picked up over here. You know, they’ll be running… the Feds, whoever is delegated, whoever accepts the hat, as soon as they’re … they have a treaty obviously, it’s just got to be a Mo and Jane thing, the locals…

J An extradition.

GA Yeah. The US authorities will serve these people, and pick them up, and when they pick them up, they’ve got to, they take them away and do whatever they do, fingerprint them, it’s a criminal thing. (Looks behind him.) And at that time they’ve either got to go into hiding, which… likely, I really don’t know, you probably have all the news and I’m just boring you to tears. And I have alot of questions. If you have questions of me I can answer,

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I can answer them.

J Let’s. That’s pretty much what the scoop is.

5:00:00

Let’s just go through them briefly (inaudible). I’m amassing all these puny, futile campaign, effort to regroup. (Reading from piece of paper and GA giggles).

GA This is a deletion mark (point at the piece of paper), so you have to delete, delete campaign. Move onto the mind (stretch group?)

J OK

GA This very simply is just I see. This just lays down in my opinion all the things that are going on, how irrevocable the whole thing is, and you know, it’s kind of time to act. But again; you people probably stay more up to date on the legal actual events than I do, but never before has there been cases that have had to come to trial with in the next year, there’s just shitloads of them.

J OK

GA (laughs) OK

J Good enough. Let’s go over this stuff, yeah?

GA: What a nice folder.

J This is the thing that got passed out at that big event. You heard of that?

6:00:00

GA Yeah, the ah…

J You wanted I HELP stuff.

GA Yep. (starts making notes while looking at the doc J is showing him)

J And I have a whole bunch of documents here and samples of different kinds. I can give you these.

GA Good (laughs) This is … ah like a kid in the candy shop

J I hope I got what you wanted here.

GA Oh, so far we’re looking great.

J OK, you want to take a look at them. I haven’t really studied them closely but maybe I can help you answer any questions.

GA You know, I won’t waste your time right now with going over all of this, because I know as I go through it and study it and study the legalese, I’m going to have a lot of questions. Mike’s going to have alot of questions, OK?

J Yeah.

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GA To ask the questions at this point before I digest this stuff, it doesn’t make any sense to me.

J Great, now…

GA But…

J … I need to know, like, what your strategy is regarding these type of things and what we’re looking at doing. (showing him docs)

GA Well, I got a view, of course, from you, of course, that someone at

7:00:00

[legal] considered that I HELP was you know, their Achilles heel, as it were. (laughs) So we thought, shit, shouldn’t I get some I HELP materials, so hence I asked. Now issues, I wanted to know number one, how they’re run off, what the type face is like, are these like this? You know…

J These are the real McCoys.

GA You see, because I think that during a part of this, we can simply create these, you know, I can create documents with relative ease (laughter), you know, I did it for a living! (laughs again)

J (laughs) Great, so what kind of stuff are we going to want to create and who’s going to get it…

GA That’s what we need to talk about!

J Yeah, that’s what I want to know, what’s the input from Michael on it. How’s it going to tie in with what he’s doing and what the other people are doing, and….

GA That’s what we need to get…

J …and what do the agencies want on this?

GA OK. Well, the agencies have asked for some specific things, that’s all they’ve asked for. Now….

J Let me take notes, what have they asked for?

8:00:00

GA Well they’ve asked for specifically now some of the things you’ve already answered and I’ve already passed on. The names that they mentioned (tapping his palm with his other hand each name mentioned) Marlowe Reynolds, Doug Hay… we talked

J Now who wanted this?

GA CID (looks around intently while J is writing)

J Got it

GA Now, do you want a number in CID?

J Yeah

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GA Your people should ca[ll if] any problems, just call this guy. He’s in my opinion a pretty straight guy. (looking through his papers)

J He knows about the Loyalists, what we’re doing, stuff like that?

GA Yeah, basically, yeah.

J What exactly have you told him and what did he say?

GA I’ve told him, well, he feels that, he keeps saying “when are these [guys] going to talk to me, I’ll meet under any circumstances.

J Wow.

GA He wants to talk. You know, wait a, let me get, (reads)

9:00:00

“Al Lipkin, 213-688-4260″. At night..” (train passes behind them and they both turn and watch it, it’s blowing it’s horn, neither speak as it passes)

GA This is really great. How far is the track? Is it a long thing?

J I think (they talk about the train and if it goes through zoo)

GA (resuming reading) “At night 688-4151”. I believe that’s

J That’s his home?

GA I don’t think so, I believe that how…

J This is CID?

GA Yeah, I believe that’s how he can be reached. I’m taking a fuck of a chance doing this (laughs). So are you! But there is alot of

10:00:00

J What does he need from me, what does he want, or is it just back-up, for what I need.

GA Well it ties in-he would like to get everyone to talk so that they can move! But, but at the same time, I always say to him, “Listen, you’re putting us in an uncomfortable situation. If you’re telling me you haven’t got enough to move right now, and I’m giving you the testimony, then I’m a marked man if you back off the investigation. He said… The reason I do that is not because I’m particularly paranoid but because I’m searching for what’s going on in their skull. He assured me the investigation’s going forward, “we’ve got enough, that’s the way the government works.”

J Listen (gesturing) the bottom line here. I’m not aware of any crime the Church is committing right now. we’ve looked, I mean… like realistically.

GA How much are they paying PI’s? Illegal expenditures.

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11:00:00

Illegal expenditures!

J Right, we’ve looked at that, we talked about that at the last meeting, but…

GA Right.

J I mean, uh… These people have apparently corporate power to spend this money, I don’t see how that’s breaking the law. We’re not talking what they were doing in D.C.

GA Nooo! (protest) Illegal expenditures! You see. It’s kind or like… Yeah, these people have the power, that’s it, that’s the whole thing, They have that power (banging his pen on his paper several times in time with this speech) end they’re abusing it so that’s why we’re saying “Enough!” And that’s why we have this law suit. See, all it has to do with is money. It has nothing to do with “Did they shoot Billy Joe?” No, it’s “who’s using the funds of a, what’s the word they use “a charitable corporation.” You guys are a charitable corporation, right? Who’s using the funds of a charitable corporation to, what? Entrap, to destroy someone’s reputation. How are they doing it?

12:00:00

GA Look at Freedom, look st the whole Flynn escapade, that’s it, that’s the key! They overstepped the the fucking bounds. They don’t have any proof. So you, (flips his hand), they don’t have any proof! (Pauses for moment, flips over hand in emphasis) Do they?

J Well, uh, my understanding is when they do these Freedom things they’ve got interviews and they got all of this, there’s no breaking and entering going on, there’s nothing like that going on, (sputters some words.) The thing is …

GA How much have the PI’s been paid?

J I imagine lots.

GA You see, that’s the whole point.

J I mean for the last number or years, everything that these guys do are run by attorneys. I mean, they’ve got banks or attorneys checking all the laws, all or this, what we’re talking about, you know basically, they’re not breaking the law because they have the attorneys checking everything. Before these Freedoms go out, they check the law or libel, the law or this, that you know what I mean.

GA I understand.

J So it’s like we get into areas or law I don’t, and the Committee, if I can say, from our end we don’t see that.

GA You don’t see what?

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J Blatant criminality.

GA I understand, it’s all done… it’s anyway… look at it just. I understand your question. I don’t see it as a problem, like you see it as a problem. I see simply that an organization can not do that. (Emphasizes “can not do”). You cannot simply take people’s money and use it to destroy someone, It just doesn’t wash. You can’t say “I’m a church and now let’s go kill him!” (gestures a lot). You can’t… anyway … that’s the whole… I understand what you’re saying, and I’ll send it back down the lines…

14:00:00

J Yes, you tell Michael that’s what we’re sitting with, we don’t see it and we can’t see how that’s going to go, it it’s drilled in, ever since the Raid, no illegalities, no illegalities, attorneys, attorneys, attorneys, and they say, you know…

GA Where’s the money? Do you guys know where, how much money has gone to the attorneys? For what (voice rises). They’re fucking bleeding you dr…bleeding you! Surely the congregation has the opportunity to stand up and say (arms open wide: voice high pitched and loud) and say “It’s our fucking Church and our money!” Otherwise, you’re saying, well, shit, it’s totally legal? You’re saying…

J (tries to interrupt)

GA … it’s totally legal. Yeah, we can buy a house of prostitution in Nevada, it’s legal, but you can’t use the Church bucks for that, asshole! (gestures sharply) That’s the way we see it you know. It’s kind of like, illegal! Fuck, it I, it’s the logic. That kind at the way, (speaks more calmly) and I think the complaint was tailored in that way, wasn’t it? Didn’t go into like any heavy crimes, just this much money…has been… re these things.

J The suit the Loyalists had filed…

GA Right. You guys have information I understand regarding the payment of money down in Florida, right, to someone, okay, they weren’t planting drugs and hookers on old Judge Frisbie, but they sure did pay for the god-damned boat, they paid the PI’s and they made some recordings, am I correct? (pause for answer)

J I don’t remember that. They do pay PI’s lots.

GA Exactly, that’s the whole thing. Enough.

J Inaudible: something about legal expenditures.

GA (voice rising) but the whole point is these guys are being indicted… you see, you can’t…

16:00:00

J What are they being indicted on?

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GA Huh?

J What are they being indicted on?

GA Well, probably fraud and they’re about to get Hubbard probably on tax court… (seems to choke slightly) fraud. Not paying his taxes, failure to file a W2 (laughs) whatever it is… I don’t know!

J See, what doesn’t fit in our mind is like, you know, Hubbard has got attorneys, tax attorneys, he’s had for years… And he has all these attorneys to make sure…

GA (lifting his hand) You know what (keeps J from interrupting) you know what, this is the way it is, it took a long, kind, kind of a long time to learn, you know, (lifts hands) I could be all wet! Maybe it’ll never go! All those things could happen. But there’s a big difference between law and justice, and they’re always in the law. But it’s not just. (lifts hands) You know… you can do things within the law but they’re not just.

J Okay… (GA interrupts)

17:00:00

GA Their PI’s were always in the law, he was always in the law, right?

J Right.

GA Except G. Armstrong is going to get a fucking big award because they did it. Because you just don’t harass people that way. You, you don’t take Joe Citizen (pointing off) who’s got zero money, you’ve just robbed him and then you turn the weight of that organization with a bunch of fucking meatball PI’s against him. You know.

J I got it! Okay.

GA It’s law and justice. And we’re saying “Fuck it, it’s unjust!” And that’s what I think. Somebody’s got to stand up. It doesn’t really matter. Anyway, I think the swap of information is very vital and I think if we keep going along, you know, the more things happen, the more there is, the more we’re in control of this whole this damn thing. Because the fact is, we’re out here and they can’t hear this shit. They gotta hide. Miscavige is hiding. Right? You don’t see the fucker around! so now you’ve got…

J well, you’re not hiding!

GA Huh?

J You’re not hiding.

GA Fuck no! And…

J You’re not afraid are you?

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18:00:00

GA No! And that’s why I’m in a fucking stronger position than they are!

J How’s that?

GA Why, I’ll bring them to their knees!

J What do you think is going to happen?

GA You mean, what’s my prediction?

J Yeah, what’s your prediction? And how…

GA (Pauses and shrugs and then speaks in a much lower voice, subdued.) That they’re going to lose in a whole bunch of jurisdictions. They’re going to lose, they’re going to lose. They’re going to lose (tapping his palm each time he said it). And they’re going to start losing (shrugs) 1985. They only even have to lose one, and attorneys all over the country are (going to jump on the fucking bandwagon. And watch, you know, all of a sudden. You’ve got precedents being established, which are incredible. The organization continues on with its kind of band-aid philosophy. Slap a band-aid on.

19:00:00

Aw shit! Rip it off and slap another band-aid on. Meanwhile, life happens to be marching by and they put all the band-aids on about all the law suits they can, and it’s coming to trial. They took a bath in Armstrong, they took a bath over in the UK, they took a bath in the tax case, they’re about to get burned in Samuels, because they’re not going to be allowed to intervene and when that happens Hubbard’s going to be defaulted and pretty soon you’ll find Martin Samuels selling you Dianetics books because he’ll own the copyright, because it’s already been adjudicated that the organization is L. Ron Hubbard’s alter-ago! In Armstrong! And they’re collaterally estopped from proceeding even on that issue. Oh, they’ll bob and weave for awhile, but they’re going to get slapped down. Pretty soon, Tamimi’s going to be extradited. Now, Tamimi himself of course is an interesting paradox. You’d think this guy has some substance, and yet here’s this, here’s this (tape goes silent at l9:45 minutes, although picture reception continues.)

J and GA look through some papers J has. GA continues on talking and talking. At one point, GA riffles the papers on the bench, while continuing to talk, but not reading the papers; He picks up a piece of paper once and shakes it. (Sound goes back on at 21:45)

GA (in middle of sentence) … again, I don’t, know your people’s position in the organization, but I see that policy is the thing that is handled at the top, so if someone wants to change policy, if you see a conflict in policy, you can write up a csw to change the policy and that policy goes up lines. I assume you can still do that in the organization because there’s policy to cover it.

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J Right.

GA Right? So you originate policy and in the CSW put all the relevant information. You retain the CSW and you send up the, the proposal to the people up top! The people up top are going to do whatever they do. Depends what you intended when you submitted the issue.

J So you can affect attorneys and…

GA You can affect the whole damn thing, you can cause a policy change. For example, regarding the use of PI’s, there’s a, Hubbard says in this old issue, “Use our own people, don’t use outside people.” Well that’s going to hurt, that’s going trap Hubbard. You know? So in fact, we have to change that policy. And you can put in your CSW the risks that are being run. For example, it it’s (stops dead in his speech for a moment and is still) anyway, you can say, and this is a problem that they run into, the PIs overstep their bounds, right, and they know it.

23:00:00

J I don’t know that. I mean legally I never it’s like you know, attornies.

GA See again, I can’t tell where you people are positioning to know what in the organization. You know where I’m coming from. In other words, you’re not going to have for lack of any other post, the dishwasher originating issues regarding PI’s.

J I want to give you the really good news. Are you ready for this? We’re not talking dishwasher.. We’re not talking dishwasher.

GA Operation long-prong? (laughs)

J Two members of the Board of Directors. Closed.

GA (pause) closed. Holy… You can do one, you’ve got two?

24:00:00

Two Board members. Have they already signed undated resignations?

J I’m sure that’s standard.

GA but they can invalidate then. Let me fi… let as make a note or that, okay? Because I’ll ask Mike on that, it’s a legal point. (writes several lines) Okay.

(J asks to go thru some other papers and they bend over them)

J So we got these land we got ideas on how to change them (believe they are looking at issues) ….

GA They’re just a lot or ways that I think you can …

J Colors and stuff.

GA Exactly!

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J You know how to do all that. Change them and …

GA I think that it is possible, I think a lot of things can be done. I don’t propose to, I can’t go within a mile of the organization obviously, so I can’t be stuffing things into their comm basket.

25:00:00

J Oh, yeah. There will be helpers involved. I want to show you this thing. Now this was from the I HELP …

GA Yep. (moves closer on the bench to J)

J … and got shredded and we put it together, …

GA You know who’s handwriting that is?

J No. Anyway … (murmurs, reading from paper GA is looking at) channel all money flows, I HELP, thereby, dada, and it’s talking about the money and I HELP. But why I keep bringing up the legal thing, there’s a thing here, handling something, each country’s laws, so it looks like it’s going to be run by attorneys, you know what I mean, I don’t want to give that up, it’s not broad … You can look at it.

GA What’s the date on it, do you know?

J It’s new. 6 September…

26:00:00

GA 84! So I HELP is a thing that’s going on.

J The only thing I can give you, it gives you what the initials stand for, something about counseling or something. (they look at the doc and try to figure out who that is)

GA Fine, Fine.

J Don’t know whose that is?

GA Okay. Well, we won’t worry about that right now. (examining a document very closely)

J You want to look at anything on that?

GA What we may be able to do is paste this down and, then photocopy it again. It we could do it real well, we could turn it into a natural rather than a … you know what I mean? Glue the sucker down really well and rephotocopy it and hopefully these various lines are never picked up and then join the whole thing back together, just crimp it a little bit because the grinding has turned the edges up.

27:00:00

Looks real good. I don’t understand it all. Yet (murmurs some words reading the doc). (then in changed voice, higher and stronger) How do your people feel about, about the organization, like where they’re at, like do they feel they’re going to weather this storm, like they’re getting more powerful? Or that, you knew, they’re so firmly entrenched that only this plan of attrition is going to at all move

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things along? (chuckles)

J Well, we’re looking very seriously at actually filing that suit and one of the things we want back from Michael is what the timing of that should be, see, we have it working in both directions, inaudible)

28:00:00

(They murmur over the docs, the train goes by, Gerry is silent while J talks)

J Now I’ll give you this whole thing – all I’ve got here – the pledge, you wanted the pledge right?

GA Yeah.

GA (looking at it) Who are these people?

J They’re staff members.

GA “David Miscavage; Vicki Aznaran; Heber Jentsch?”

(J gives GA the Pledge)

J Here’s a policy letter. You want to do anything with policy letters.

GA Sure.

(They go over the materials J brought for GA. J shows GA a packet of data)

J The whole thing was passed out. That’s the name of the group and their address and their magazine. (Shows him something in the magazine) They have all these commendations, and things  that Hubbard’s gotten, certificates, International Who’s Who in lecturing What do you think about all this.

GA (long pause while he looks at turning pages) He’s gotta go down in history as the greatest con man of all time. What a fraud.

J What do you want to have happen to him?

GA To have happen to him? (J: MMMM) I’d like to talk to him.

J Is that all?

GA Well, I’d like to end the madness. But, you know (defensively) I don’t have any problem…I would like to talk to him. I’d even like to tape the conversation. I think that probably for the first time I would be able to talk to the old fart. Ron, Ron, where did you go wrong?

J From your end, where do you, what do you want…

GA What do I want you guys to do?

J No wait, just look at purposes here for a second…

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GA Oh

J What’s you, your…

GA My purpose?

J Yeah, for the Church.

GA Well, my purpose initially is global settlement, I want that. I’ve done this shit now for going on three years, and even longer before that when I was inside. Such a crusader rabbit kind of thing, and it’s a pain in the ass. And it just seems so stupid to me. (He’s rubbing the back of his neck throughout this speech) And I would like to end it before some asshole goes off his fucking rocker and starts shooting people, which I think they’re capable of. They’re pretty, crazy guys. Peterson is a psycho. Their attorney Peterson is a fucking psycho.

31:00:00

J Do you think the organization’s psycho?

GA Well, I’ll tell you (pause), it is acting like a psychotic organization, you know, when we’re doing this, skulking around meeting and driving around in the fucking… that’s crazy. I mean okay, and we can play the game but, God, to live that way. Professsing to be a Church, it’s just so much madness, the world is not (rubbing his head) it’s just isn’t constructed that way. They’ve created enemies in there (rubbing head and back) and they’re not there… so I, I’d like that to happen initially, I’d like to achieve a global settlement so that I don’t have to continue on because one thing they have to know is I’m not going away. They say they’re not and I think there’s a growing number on the other side who are not, and they’re looking in a worse and worse position all the time. All these cases are marching on and they’ve bobbed and weaved, and they’ve manipulated and played with the law, and spent billions of dollars and things are marching on. I don’t (pause)

J So no real animosity.

GA You mean toward anyone?

J Yeah

GA (Still rubbing his neck while he talks) Ah, to the contrary. I  mean, I’m meeting here with you, of course, you’re not exactly what I would call a Scientologist.

(a man with grey shirt looks like a sweatshirt and red and white head band on short, sandy colored hair walks between camera eye and them) GA doesn’t appear to look at him J looks toward after he’s passed on)

GA Scientologists sort of tend to think with their ass. You know, (murmurs, gesture of futility, rubs hair) it’s just a pain in the butt. To be concerned about these guys and to think, you know, that they’re going to try to fuck my life over every chance that they get. And I

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think that, you know, they happen to be a bunch of terrorists who walked into my […]view.

33:00:00

And (shrugs) I kind of think that you sort of have to stand up, I’m not saying incarcerate them or slap, they need to be slapped down is what they need) They need to be fucking held in check. Not even the biggest corporate giants in the world abuse the law like these assholes. It’s just a — and they’re unscrupulous because they’re so fucking right about everything. I mean, like okay.

J Right, one thing I got to say, I don’t see like the act breaking of the law where, you’re talking, I mean we get into other areas…

GA (voice rising) Oh, I know what you mean.

J You do understand that? I mean,… like I think…

GA Yeah, I mean the whole thing…

J I mean they got the lawyers, I mean deep down inside they must know… can’t see…..

GA The what…

J The break in the law. I mean they have the attorneys to check it. You know? so they’re going by the book, the letter of the law.

34:00:00

GA They had attorneys, they’ve had attorneys check everything. They had attorney’s in the Armstrong case. They took a bath. Their attorneys are giving them bad advice – that’s the reality. Hubbard’s attorneys are giving him piss-poor advice. Jesus, he keeps getting more law suits and gets closer to the brink every day. They’re just sucking him in. That’s the thing. to say “well (shrugs) it’s legal because the att…” Horseshit.

J (trying to interrupt) okay…

GA Attorneys are a bunch of crooks.

J Okay, okay.

GA Anyway, that’s only for…

J Let’s move on…

GA Anyway, that’s only the mentality, the mind set, that you guys can have. You can take that, you can take that viewpoint, rather than “Shit, they checked with the attorney…” You know what I mean? One just says “Bullshit” This is fucking unjust. and take a stand and back the fuckers down. And the other one is….

J Unfortunately, maybe “unjust” has nothing to do with the letter of the law.

35:00:00

GA Oh, it has everything, that is what it’s all about, rights in the front of all the buildings, is this blind

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lady [with the ]god damned scales. […] what it’s all about (pause) Okay, okay.

J Okay

GA God, how’d I do?

J (chuckles) philosophy wise?

(they laugh and shift on the bench)

GA As an orator, shall we say. Un (looks at watch) I got to ask some questions. Doug Hay?

J Haven’t found that yet.

GA Okay. Do you know where Marlowe and Reynolds are?

J I don’t know.

GA Has there been any high-level detections? Any defections recently that they’re concerned about?

J Not that I’m aware of.

GA Do you have anyone out at Gilman?

J We got someone that goes there quite regularly.

GA (nods) Do you know where Miscavige hangs out?

J (Shakes head) He appears and disappears. I mean he can be at Gilman, he can be around the complex.

GA Is he often…do you know what he drives?

J No

36:00:00

GA can you make a note of that? Find out what they all drive. You need, get me…

J (making s note) What’s the purpose or this? Is this to serve them?

GA Well, serve them is one thing, but maybe get them picked up. I don’t, you know, it’s kind of like (pause), you know, we need this flow or data going back and forth, it has to happen, and I think that the Feds are going to be real pleased with the fact that it’s happening and I think that they’ll reciprocate.

J Great. Great. so, what agencies know about us and what do they want, and…

GA Justice Department, FBI…

J You talk to these guys?

GA Yeah I do. Yeah.

16

J Like who in Justice, is there a [number I can call]

GA Uh, Richard Greenberg, I gave you that one, I think. He’s the guy you should call, I’ll give you that number. He s in DC. Did the LA FBI case get dismissed?

J (can’t hear him but it sounds like he doesn’t know)

GA Okay. Uh, (202-633 3368) I gave you one for Tom Doughty, FBI in DC.

J What’s his name again?

GA Tom. Thomas D. Doughty, (spells it off whatever he’s reading) 202-324-4532. I gave you CID. There’s another guy in CID…

J Yeah, Al Lipkin.

28:00:00

GA Al Ristuctia.

J Is this Al too?

GA Albert, yeah. And (finds number on page separate from name, apparently) 688-4261. It may be the same as the other one I gave you, I’m not sure, Al Lipkin? (looks over onto J’s page he’s writing on and they see number is different.) No the other one is 60, okay.

J Canada

29:00:00

GA Oh, in Canada you know, they have that thing “Project 20?” The guy I’ve talked to alot is Al Ciampini. (416 965-6138).

J Who was he with again?

GA He’s just the Ontario Provincial Police. Michael, Mike also thinks that the Florida Attorney General is going to bring some charges. Uh, the, you know; the whole Freedom thing. Mike got an indication from, did I give you the name or the guy who’s handling that investigation?

J No

GA The Tamimi investigation? Uh, let’s see (suddenly lifts his head sharply and stares straight ahead, into camera eye, apparently trying to remember the name) uh, Brackett Denniston. His first name is Brackett.

30:00:00

Last name is Denniston (spells it) and he’s (617)223-2280. He’s the Assistant US Attorney involved in the Tamimi thing, and his last indication to Mike was: it is clear that an attempt to completely ruin someone’s name with false information is a crime. (GA says this staring straight ahead, into camera, saying it slowly and clearly as though he’s both quoting it and saying it slowly enough for J to write it down.)(writing)

J Got it. Okay.

17

GA So, all you have to do is, again, take that viewpoint, “It’s a crime.” Never been proven, so …

J So what do these, what’s Justice need from the Loyalists, FBI, CID how….

GA They’d like to talk to whoever knows about…

31:00:00

I’ll tell you who wants to talk to you is CID. CID are the guys. That’s the mostly likely, absolutely the most likely place in which the whole thing will happen. Canada, you know, they’re a little far away, they’re going to move first, and perhaps it is an embarrassment to the rest of the us people that the Canadians scooped them on the thing. You know, if everything goes right with the Canadians. They have to move by December 2nd, that’s the cutoff date.. If they don’t by December 2nd, then that’s all over, they give back the Toronto docs and…

J So what do they want from us?

GA They want to talk to you people. They want.. uh, uh, yeah, there’s two things. Number one, you guys should, I think, make plans at least, in the event that the whole thing is blown, someone breaks or whatever, exactly how to handle it, because, you know, you can simply, no one needs to be held, don’t go for it, just walk out the door. And I don’t know if they’d be stupid enough to try to fuck you over by holding you.

32:00:00

Maybe, but I doubt it.

J (attention distracted) I was look at all this.

GA Oh. (throws up his hand, tosses his head) anyway, just be aware of that possibility and I think that…

J That, that if I went down and talked to him…I wouldn’t go there, first of all…

GA No, no…

J Too many Scientologists around….

GA No, I wouldn’t say go there, call him and make arrangements so that he can talk to you people. That’s what makes sense. And it makes sense that…

J Think he might arrest me?

GA Him? For what? (looking incredulous, turning his head aside, throwing his hands up in response to the question, leaning forward, laughing, saying “oh, no, no…”)

J …Church of scientology…

GA Oh, no, that, he…

J They know where I’m coming from?

GA (frozen motionless with hand raised for some moments) Well, you know what would make sense, it would make

18

sense in my opinion to make […] contact through me so that he knows that you are part of the people that I’ve talked about (blows nose). That makes sense. That would save you any problem in terms of identification because they are leery of entrapment.

43:00:00

J Great! Great! One of the things I wanted to ask uh Lyman Spurlock…

GA Yes

J …and Carol? (GA doesn’t respond)

J (chuckles) I told you about Carol?

GA No.

J Oh, good looking girl. Got a plan on that.

GA oh, is, is Carol (shading his eyes) the name of the girl?

J Yeah.

GA The name of your girl? (sounding surprised) oh, Carol, I tho… see, Carol is his wife’s name, but they’ve had such a rocky marriage it’s been like off and on divorce as long as I’ve known the guy, since ’77, so I just thought (throws up his hand) he’s a possibility. I didn’t know Carol but thanks anyway (they both laugh) No, he told me that a real good looker and I thought, God, this is you know, an absolutely perfect opportunity because I think that, that, the way to the man’s mind is through his cock.

44:00:00

(sniggering as he speaks) those people especially, I mean none of the people in WDC or, or, you know, ASI, none of them have like, a lot of brain power. You know what I mean. They’re not intellectual giants. And they definitely had rather shall we say (laughing and holding his middle) Philistine tastes! (breaks out laughing again, slaps the bench with his hand, shifts around a lot) And you know, there are a lot of good looking women with Philistine tastes! If you know what I mean, it’s a possibility…

GA You were going to say something?

J (says nothing)

GA Did it happen?

J No. So we say, you know if he gets set up with her….

GA You know, if she’s a good actress. You know, I was wondering about the E-Meter today. You know, it seems to me that the E-meter reads if you don’t know your story real well. If you’ve got your stories down, I don’t think there’ll be any problem.

45:00:00

And I think she… I mean, I would like to have the opportunity to sort of (word) some of this off (sniggering and shifting on the bench). I just think of you guys, I don’t know if it’s

19

been tried before, but there’s definitely a way to get to the top. That’s been known in high political circles for a number of centuries. That could be a lot of fun.

J What time do you have to leave?

GA Now!

J You don’t ….

GA What else? Do you have some specific questions?

J Yeah, a couple of things, you can meet the financier if you like. She’s here in town for like a day or so. You can go over and meet her, if you want to do that.

GA Some one is financing for you?

J We’ve got this girl that Dan told you about?

GA Yeah

J She’s here and she’ like to meet you just to see if you’re a real person…

[]5:00:00

GA (cautiously) Does she want to see me with Dan?

J No, I can take you over there.

GA OK

J We can do that.

GA When, gi, give me a ti….oh,…

J We can do it right now…

GA Oh, oh, no! No, (shrugs) I can’t right now!

J Oh.

GA I need, I need a little time usually. See, when you called today, and, it was fine. Everything worked out fine. I have my wife at work; got to pick her up at 4:00, we only have the one car as yet, so we kind of have to jockey it around. But normally, like a day in advance, I can be anywhere at any time. (Chuckles) I don’t have a job, hell, I just (laughs)…

J Great. I need to hear back from Michael on the timing of the suit. And you had one other question, you wrote one other question down tonite.

GA On IHELP…

J I got the samples…and stuff like that.

GA Right

J Can I hear back from him like now. Cane we call him on a

20

pay phone or something?

GA Uh, shit…(looks first at his watch and then holds still like he’s thinking)

47:00:00

I dou…how’s a real bad time. See it’s five thirty in Boston and he’ll be out of the office and wouldn’t be home yet.

J Hmmm

GA Are you following me?

J It’s not worth a shot?

GA I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t. I think we’d waste our time trying to locate him somewhere.

J You can call him then run it by him and then get back to me.

GA Yeah. I got to see Dan tomorrow on some matters (laughs) on some literary matters.

J All right! All right. Uh, now did Michael have any more messages for us, looking at what kind of direction to move in and any other questions he had…

GA Well, you know, he, he thinks, oh, I know, he’s going to have a question: Is she going to back it? Is she going to come up with some bucks so that…

J Looks really strong

48:00:00

GA Great. I think it’s great. By the way, she, she’s into publishing, did you know this?

J Yeah.

GA So if we saw her, I have some art work…

J Yeah, definitely bring it, definitely bring it.

GA OK (starts laughing) Some of which you have there…

J Yeah, I’ll show her the sample.

GA What else? I think that’s it. I would like to (is distracted and points at a mole he sees and they discuss the mole, then GA decides it couldn’t be a mole because they got blind, etc. etc. then speaks to it in a high voice, “What it is?” HELLO What it is?)

J All right, what about Michael?

49:00:00

GA I’ll get those things from him, do you want me to leave answers with (turns his head and watches animal again)… again tomorrow. Dan tomorrow.

J Yeah, that’ll be good.

GA Or I’ll track them down somehow, either tonight or first

21

thing in the morning.

J If I can get away from another meeting, maybe we’ll do that. Okay.

GA I’m going to see him tomorrow. Maybe….they both try to speak at once. …we can set something up for Friday.

J …if I call you tonite, that’ll mean I’ll take it, if not.

GA OK

J I think I’d rather take it myself.

GA OK. (turns to look at animal again. “You little cutie!”)  I don’t believe this!

J She’s going to run by the IHELP docs, the policy letters, the suit….

GA Yep. Oh, do you guys know about Homer Schomer’s suit?

J (commlag) The committee may. I’m not familiar with it.

GA OK. We think that that’s quite important.

50:00:00

You know, he had sued (train hoots), he had sued, and I wrote it in there who he had served, and ASI’s been served; it’s very significant because it’s using unfair, unfair work or labor practices against a profit corporation. Takes away the whole religious…

J Yeah, yeah…

GA …think and it moves it into a different realm. (GA turns to watch the animal some more)

J Alrighty

GA (To animal) What are you?

J Fascinating little rodent isn’t it?

GA Oh, I love it. I’ve never had one of these guys just…come up in my lawn like that.

J Okay. Is there anything else the Loyalists should be doing, other than possibly using these documents, filing this suit..

GA They should be preparing affidavits.

J Right

GA They should be….

51:00:00

J You mentioned before like a PR campaign getting ready for this.

GA Well, that’s the sort of thing, you know that is the

22

[so]rt of thing, like the iss[ue] re’s […] many other things, like you could size up […]usly every time you talk to someone it’s part of a PR campaign as far as you guys are concerned. Right? You get a new recruit into the fold (turns to look at animal again) It’s a PR campaign (Turns head again)

J Like these issues and PR campaign are going to disrupt the Church and turn it against Management.

(Turns his head from watching the animal to face J) Well, those things, I leave that up, obviously you guys are in a better position, Christ, you know the game far better than I do, it you want to agent provocateurs (laughs) you’re the artists. You can probably ‘do ‘what thou wilt” along those lines.

[5]2:00:00

I don’t think I have to give you any instructions, but I do think that you know we sit at a particular crossroads of history relative to the organization and dammit it, we should be able to act, I think. You know? And cause our own destiny here, instead or sitting back waiting for it to happen. The adrenalin rush. (laughs) But actually, I can do without that shit. Hence, I’m involved. (Looks over the back of the bench) I keep hearing these things all around, man….

J (Leaves dropping from tree) All right. All right.

GA You know I’ll probably have more questions, I always have a lot of questions later. Uhm, oh, the other thing, I don’t know if it makes sense to you to sort of divide up the organization and uh go after people on that basis.

[5]3:00:00

Just so that you know, “Shit, we have this group covered”, and then divide it up structurely so that you have all the various key points which have to be covered. I think that you guys will be able to take over and then use operating income to continue the battle. And that way you can secure the buildings, take it over, and I think that it’s going to take that kind of thing, a lot of people, by the way…

J Like game plan. Like you want the global settlement – like us working together, it’d be like our people urn the Church getting these guys out of the way.

GA Sooner or later someone’s going to have to settle.

J Yeah

GA Like if you guys decide “Fuck you”, just continue on, It really doesn’t make any difference. I have my law suit and I’m going ahead on that, and that keeps me involved you know, in addition to everything else I do, and that’s going to pay off sooner or later and I’m going to assist wherever I can in bringing this god-damned dog to bay.

54:00:00

Because I think, it’s (they both stop as a man walks across the camera and them. Man with ring of gray hair, mostly bald, grey shirt like earlier guy) There’s no fucking way you guys should have to go through searches when you walk in and out of the Church.

23

or through fucking TV camera[s.] You’re talking about some god damned Terrorist organization, PLO hea[…]

J Well they’re afraid of robberies, that’s the line…

GA Oh, horse-fucking-shit (turns head away in disgust) Yeah, robberies, that’s why they’re frisking people, right? I mean, that’s crazy, and it’s time it ended. And not only that, but when you get a group of crazies together…

J (cuts GA’s comm) Yeah, okay, anything else you need from me?

GA I don’t think so…

J You do definitely have to run now, you don’t have time to…?

GA to meet her?

J Yeah.

GA Nope. But if you’d call….

J But you’d like to?

GA Oh, I’d like to very much, I think it could be mutually beneficial.

J Okay, and you’re going to go over everything with Flynn and …..

GA Yep….

J And I’ll get back to you on that…..

GA Yep, and I’m going to copy this stuff, send him off the package, and sort through it, and see what the heck it really is all about.

J And if he has any other ideas on how to use those things, let me know.

GA Okay

J Any other ideas on that….

GA Good (sorting thru papers) You got two Board Members.

J Right, and maybe we should set up some time for you and I to get together, or whatever, and if we’re going to call one of these guys, we can do that, we’ve got more time, maybe….

GA Good, what I’d….

J Get together some time and do that.

GA See, I need to arrange, before we get together and decide to do it, I’d need to set up a time with them,

24

more or less. I’ll have to […]a thre[…]ay time.

J Oh, it wouldn’t be something we’d just do after you…

56:00:00

GA Yea, well, we could definitely just call up and they’d talk to us, but what if they’re tape-recording Lyman Spurlock at that time, I don’t know that they’ll want to break, you know what I mean?

J Yeah

GA It’s best if we can give them a little noise; it’s not critical either way. You know, if we said, well (a couple of cyclists went by and GA’s comm slowed and dropped until they were past) Let’s talked (checked as he saw the cyclists) to these guys, great, I think that they would want to talk in person because they’re searching for understanding about it with current information (train goes by behind them and GA keeps talking. No horn blowing) Obviously, the information they have, unless they got ahold of some defectors (horn hoots at this point and he continues talking) is not very current. (Then they both stop and watch the train) You know, 1982 is really the most current information, I believe of anyone they’re talking to that I know of. Homer probably (He knew what was going in in ASI in 1982)

J Okay. We got it. We got it (They both stand up and walk toward the camera)

One says “We’ll keep in touch” “See you” “Thanks”

END OF TAPE 5

Notes

  1. J: “Joey”, aka David Kluge. GA: Gerry Armstrong
  2. This document in pdf format.
  3. This document is Exhibit A to Declaration of John G. Peterson (22 January 1986) filed in Armstrong 1.
  4. This video was transcribed at trial in Christofferson. See court transcript.
  5. Scientology submitted a partial transcript of this meeting in their 1023 submission to the IRS: Exhibit III-10-Q: Transcript of meeting between J and GA on 7 November 1984 (1993).