Transcript: Illegal video (November 9, 1984)


November 9, 19841,2, 3


GA Hi.

J Hey man. I like this place.

J They’re throwing money at us.

GA Where’d it come from?

J A lot of traffic coming up?

G Yeah. That’s why I’m late.

J Train still here?

GA Are we going to meet the young lady?

J Yeah. We can do that. Did you bring any drawings?

GA Which kind or drawings? Oh my drawings! Yeah, yeah, I brought a bunch.

J That’s great, that’s great.

GA So, tell me what’s going on.

J Excitement,excitement.

GA Is it really?

J Yeah, yeah. The general mood is like we’re going, and we’re going fast and there’s just exuberance. You got something to take some notes, I want to give you some stuff.

GA Oh shit. Hang on, I’ll get…

J Here, I’ll give you something here…

GA You got a pen as well?

J Would you rather have your own notebook

GA No, this is fine. Give me that paper and well, I think things are accelerating. Boy. You know I was photographed eh.

J Yeah, Danny told me.

GA He had a blue car, light blue late model, boxy looking thing, I think a white top, ah license number DD something. Three org guys.

J Where’d it take place?


GA Ah, on Vermont, going on to the highway.

J Hm. You’re not afraid of going by the complex or nothing, then, huh?

GA I’m not afraid of…why?


J I just sort of … you know.

GA No, but I’d like you to find out who they are. I want to know the full license number, because they got me right while I was turning, normally I can get it, but I was right turning off, off of Vermont, and they were right beside he and you know, these guys, there’s three guys in the car, er…one guy is kind or like a CESO4, used to be a CESO, do they have CESO still?

J Yeah.

GA What is it, the Estates?

J The Estates guys, yeah.

GA He was sort or like an Estates guy, but he’s probably a CMO guy now. I’ve seen Sandy, is it Sandy Gomberg, one of the Gombergs who is a…used to handle dishes in there…You know Randy?

J No. I don’t know him.

GA Ah, well he was a CMO flunkie when I was inside. So he spotted me on the street and then I saw he passed me onto this guy, and I think he’s a CMO guy. He’s about 6 one, 6 two, reddish hair, lightish hair, a little lighter, a little redder than yours, I recall.


I know him if I see him. And uh, then, you know, a couple or miles, I don’t know how far is the turn oft here? A couple or miles? A mile from the organization? These assholes pull up along side me and you know there’s e blond guy, real, real blonde hair…

J Right.

GA Driving. The guy beside him I think had dark hair, and he had a funny little camera, just clicking away, so you know I gave them something (ringer sign gesture) you know (giggle) something.

J I understand, I understand.

GA I wanted to use… I was thinking, you know the Flynn, you know the shots they have of Flynn and Hoffman, they look so ominous…Anyway, but I want to get the suckers’ names, and I need to get the whole license number. CID will run a make on the car, I want to get their names, they should be around the org, somebody can just ask. Oh, did you hear, somebody just spotted Armstrong, or whatever they do, get me names.


J So, what did they look like?


GA The car? (yeah) It’s a late model. Box-like car, light blue bottom, white top, license plate DD and then I think there was perhaps a third D or another letter…

J I’m sorry, light blue bottom and what?

GA And a white top. My recollection, you know…

J And license what? DD…

GA DD blank, something you know, three numbers, whatever…


GA It should be around the organization, because it was all org staffers, you know, it looked like it anyway, maybe these guys can recruit some PIs that quick, maybe they’re surrounding and the place is cordoned off… but in any case, these guys, I’d like to get the names and the number, to run a make on it… simply because I happen to be a Federal witness. And you don’t fucking intimidate guys like that, and so… the organization can be hit real hard. The CID wants to make them, and I don’t want my life fucked around like that, so anyway…So, that’s why I’d like it. Go ahead.


J OK. You wanted data on some people…

GA Yeah.



J Drives a red datsun, it’s a dark red datsun. Last five months he’s been at ASI. Before that at ASI. Before that he was at Gilman.

GA Yeah.

J For about roughly eight months and he was doing pictures stuff, sound stuff you know, and this is interesting… about a month back he was in DC and word has it when he was there he was speaking to the IRS.

GA Yeah

J Then after that he was in Philadelphia and he spoke at an event down in CW5.

GA Ok, about a month ago?

J DC a month ego, and Philly and Flag after that.



GA OK, good.


GA Yep.

J Wendell Reynolds and Steve Marlowe. They went on the RPF almost a year ago, and they’re at Gilmans’s.

GA They are still?

J No. I don’t know that. They were on the RPF at Gilman’s. It’s hard to trace guys on the RPF, because sometimes they’re just sort of, you know…

GA Ah, are there personnel records?

J Haven’t seen em. This is all just what people know.

GA Oh, OK, so…

J I’m sure they have personnel records…

GA No-one that we have any control of can look in computer records and personnel transfers. Are they located. Do you know the staff members’ names, or no?

J I don’t have access to computers. We don’t have access to computers.

GA Oh, you don’t. OK. That’s good to know, I thought you had someone in there but that’s fine.

J Well, I mean we can get, not on a regular basis but we can get snippets.

GA Right

J Ok. Also I want to tell you on this is coming from the committee, they were real pleased with, ah, our exchanges.


GA Oh good. (laughs). OK.

J So ah, they wanted me to give this information, and ah, you know, I’ll be taking stuff back and going over it with them.

GA Yeah.

J Great, so um LA FBI case.

GA Yeah.

J The word has it is that the Church really wants to go to town on this thing. Um, have you heard, the Church claims they got some evidence of judge tampering…

GA Right.


J …by the FBI and stuff like that. Well now the latest thing is that they’re [ ] shocked cause a couple of FBI agents go in and they stare at this Judge… the same one that they claim they got the judge tampering’ with, so they think this is a further thing even on top of it…so they just…

GA They stare at the judge?

J Supposedly. Word has it that FBI guys go in and stare at the judge trying to intimidate him or something. Anyway…


GA That seems like it would be their tip. That sounds like Scientology horseshit. (laughs) You know. Alright now, staring.

J So you got that?

GA Yeah.

J Great. Now the Homer issue, suit, ah… They’re fucking laughing about this.

GA They laugh.

J Yeah, it’s like a joke. Well, first of all it’s not really on C of S lines.

GA Right.

J But word, I mean like you know, it’s sort of like ASI is handling it, so we don’t really know, I mean like you know, you hear the guys talking and like basically, the suit, and what they’re saying is its crazy and wild stuff. The big thing is… this is the think, the inside think…these guys are joking about this thing… that…the big think is that he’s real upset because they’re supposedly holding his daughter. Well, they’re laughing, they come back and they’re laughing, “Man, have you ever known Homer to care anything about his daughter”, you know. He doesn’t care about his daughter, he just left her, da da da da da da. I mean that’s the tone of this…the joke.


GA So,…I’ve seen this sort of thing before, you know, it was like Tonja Burden, and I suppose Armstrong, and I suppose anyone whose come out of the woodwork, it was always that, that’s a pretty standard thing, it was like they would have probably feld in the beginning about Flynn and the Tamimi thing. Kind of like it’s a joke, they’re going to handle it. We know all about you assholes. We’re going to get Flynn, we’re going to get Homer.

J Yeah. well, it’s slightly different here, because I say they’ve got lots of people who know that he didn’t take care of his daughter, and he wasn’t concerned about her then, why is he concerned about her now… and there’s no


way they’re holding her and…anyway that’s, that’s information for you. Also they’re talking about, they’re saying that Homer ripped off a bunch of money, and then when the suit actually gets served, and go to go to town on it, and I mean they’re saying we’re going to get Homer, you know. It’s not going to look good for him, he’s going to be in trouble when the suit gets going. What I’m trying to say is that the ASI guys don’t think this is any big deal.

GA Oh, they think it’s a big deal. But this is the standard way they approach everything…they think initially nothing’s a big deal. I think that’s pretty standard.

J Okay, great.

GA My opinion, I would, let me just think, when you talk about these people talking like that, who are we talking about?

J I mean ASI guys come over and they just…

GA Who?

J I don’t know. I didn’t hear. This comes from the Committee.

GA I see. It would be good to have some names. Sort of like I understand they have some…

J Let me note that down, you want some names…See if we can get who’s talking about the suit.

GA Right. When we’re talking about these people, who are we talking about. Who are those people?

J who’s talking about the Homer suit in ASI.

GA Well, who is ASI? Who are these people? Give me an org Board. Tell me who the opposition is, who knows what. Where does Marc Yager fit in all this, you know, what is the actual line or control, who is in charge. ‘Cos someone is. All right. You know, the people who are talking about this suit were they in a position to be dealing with the suit, or were they being told something by someone else who was just hyping them? who knows? Or maybe it is a weak suit. I think that everything that has happened so far of a long range effect has hurt the organization. Oh, they win with the Bandaid philosophy, but in the long run I think they’re going down to take a bath. Anyhow…we’ll push on.

J So, I’ll see what I can get on that.

GA Yep.

J Ok. Any news from Michael?


GA No.

J. [Great] I got this, this is good.

GA By the way, I’ll never admit that anything comes from Michael, including any complaints which I may have drafted.

J Why’s that?

GA Because that’s, that’s how I’ve got to approach it.


GA Did they understand all this.

J I think so, yes.

GA Jesus Christ. (Laughs)

J Oh, I just lost something (dropped some paper on the ground). I’ll get it.

J We need a rock I think, we need a rock to hold on to this.

J Got it all, got it all, got it all.

GA When will we see the lady?


J Oh, in a little bit, let me finish this us here. (Good). Um, I want to go over what you went over with Danny yesterday on those doc ideas. I saw Danny real briefly, he handed me this thing and briefly told me he had a little trouble yesterday and he said he went over some doc ideas.

GA The doc ideas were simply what we talked about, ah, let me ask you…you guys write stuff, yours all writers to some degree. People can draft the stuff. Um, it just seems like…the guts of … you know there’s three things right, there’s personnel and comm lines and money. That’s about it. And organization’s comm lines are of various kinds, and I think that you can use the fact, you know, realize what their comm lines are and plug into them. That’s all I was trying to convey, as far as anything specific, I, I’ve given you the one thing which I think is a fairly smart idea which is to use an issue as an assessment. It would happen everywhere, they could never tell, you know, if it was done right. It would be in all the baskets and they could never tell.

J So, what would happen? I mean…

GA Well, in that particular instance, if you had the organization divided up into, for lack of any other term, cells, and you divided your people up so that they’re the only one in the cell who knows that he’s a cell, and he contacts various people and asks particular



questions. I assume they’re all in the intelligence game to some degree, so they’re all actors. Right? I mean, [ ] that kind of a thing, and there’s the other use to which issues are put, there’s an absolute frontal attack. I mean, I got this issue, the one on me and the other five, and I think it’s important, because what happens outside is that all of a sudden those people kind of rally together. So there is ways that stuff that’s written can be used. The specifics of it, in a way, you guys would have to work out.

J So, I guess an issue’s put together, ah, like an assessment survey.


GA I tell you what, within the next 24 hours I’ll give you an idea. I’ll write something, and we can just toss around how it can be used.

J That would be great, that’d be great.

GA And once you’ve …here’s the way I potentially see it, let’s say that this woman did decide to back this thing, and she figured that might as well do something with my life, might as well get off the great rich fence and grovel with the boys for a while, and what if she decided, and she said well shit, I’m going to finance some of this. Well we could set up a press and we could produce issues, and then we could set up a network, and we could have communication lines running outside the organization. And you could create a pool of information, just as an immediate thing, we get ourselves, you guys get yourselves an attorney and work out the exact legal things to be done.


Oh, by the way, I spoke to Al Lipkin last night, after I was photographed, I went down and saw him, because we had talked and I had said to him it looks like, just maybe, one or some of these guys are going to want to talk to you, and he was, you know, to some degree elated but they never say anything. I told, him at that time, I said in my opinion the organization at the top is potentially very fanatic and people could get hurt. If these people that I’m in touch with are brave enough to stick their neck on the line and say enough of the bullshit, ok, so I said I’s not saying that this is going to happen, I’m not saying that there’s going to bloodshed but I think that you guys ought to be aware enough that this is going down, or potentially it is, so that you’ve already talks about safe houses, and relocating and renaming people, but I said well, I don’t know what can be done, he keeps asking me, what can be done.


I say I don’t know, but I think as an initial thing what makes sense to me is that the people who are going to put their names on that document.

J The suit

GA On that suit, see you in advance, because as soon as that happens they become Federal witnesses, and the organization’s not going to fuck with them, or if it does.


J That’s what Al said?

GA That’s what I said, and he said, that’s the best protection, that they’ve got initially. He said, ya know, beyond that let’s just keep in touch on a real close basis, I called him last night after work ‘cause I had some more thoughts, and I called him again this morning you know, I’m on the phone to the guy, real tight, and I don’t know, but they’re the best the government’s got to offer, you know, and if the government of the United States can’t take on these little assholes down there we’re really in deep kaka.


J Got it. 0k, let’s finish on the documents and then get back to Al Lipton. Where were we on that.

GA On the documents?

J So I gave you att….

GA You gave me a whole bunch.

J A whole bunch. And you looked at the type styles and that kind of stuff. Right?

GA Yeah

J You know how to …

GA You’re not wired are you?

J No.

GA What are our conversations, should it come down to it?

J What do you mean?

GA What do we talk about.


You’re deposed. You walk out there, and there’s a PI hands you paper, saying you’re deposed Jack, and not only that, you’re out of the organization. And, and what do you say in deposition. Well, Armstrong and I talked about this, and he had a whole bunch of ideas about how to infiltrate the communication lines and spread turmoil and disaster, you know. What are we doing here? That’s my turmoil and disaster, you know! What are we doing here? That’s my question, before I tell you my ideas on documents.

J Well, what I got is basically loyalists gotta, we gotta move we’ve got the suit coming up and I guess we need each other’s lines to get stuff going.

GA Yeah, you do, and I think people should talk to Lipkin and I think we should make it as soon as possible to do it, and I also think that… I’ve got a request into a couple of attorneys now, who unfortunately can’t represent you guys, but I said well, what if I can get


20,000 bucks up front and they said they could have no idea coming up with a lawyer they’re trying to find at this time what lawyer makes [sense] now maybe you guys have got one, seems like you haven’t. As an important aside, Dave 22:00:00 Jordan called up Mike Flynn today, remember Dave Jordan called Danny a while back?

J Yeah.

GA Dave Jordan spoke to Mike, mentioned the name Dan Sherman, and said that, at least Mike got, that Jordon thought Dan was a double agent. Now, maybe Jordan doesn’t know about, doesn’t know enough about what is going on, maybe he is a triple agent you know what I mean. Who knows what but in any case, it seems like it Jordan is talking about Dan, perhaps something is going on. You know what I mean. You guys should know that is going on. Now, maybe Jordan’s in your pocket, I don’t know, I have no idea, but I wanted to pass that on…

J Jordan’s not a loyalist.

GA He’s not?

J No, I don’t know everybody but…

GA OK. So as far as the doc…Let me just say, ah, you and I get together, we get together because I have a goal of global settlement. You have felt that the turmoil and abuses and so on have gone on too long.. Hence we get together and discuss things. We have not discussed anything about a destruction of the tech, or Scientology is bad, or anything like that. Are we agreed?

J Yeah


GA There’s a radio, that’s a state car (watching car passing by.) So it seems to me that the use of the communication lines, I don’t know maybe you guys are using them; but it seems to me that you don’t have a way or, printing anything to get an issue on the lines, used for anything. Right? I’m saying that I can do it. I can type those goddam things and duplicate them and make them look exactly the same. You can’t, you would not be able to tell the difference. You know, maybe under a microscope you can tell the typefaces you know, this one’s got a little crack on the T and this one doesn’t. You’d be able to tell that, and they will know, but that happens to be, that only happens to be one little tiny piece of it, you put out another issue the next day for a totally different purpose. You guys are going to need to put out issues, when this thing happens, you got to inform the crew. You should be preparing, right now, in my opinion, goddam affidavits that I can be, that we can put into a computer, and have run off and ready to go. I can write—I write legal shit, that’s why I want to know your best legal mind, I’d like to talk to ‘em. Maybe you’re it, I don’t know.


J I’m not it, no.

GA OK. But I’d like to so we’re really in sync on this thing. Same as the overall best mind. I have no compulsion know I’ll talk to them through…around a corner…I don’t have to see anybody… but I really want to know that we are in sync, and that we’re using a1l  the resources that we can. I don’t know what you’ve got. I’m telling you basically what I’ve got.


One thing I have got is mobility.

J We, we can put the C.S.W. together, we can handle distribution.

GA That’s exactly the sort … the CSW is the greatest weapon you guys got. You know, the CSW about the situation with the PI’s given that someone is in a position that they would be doing such a thing. I think. You know how about if, I’ve got a letter that Eugene Ingram works for L. Ron Hubbard, you know, OK. OK, then you say, well let’s say you guys have the

information somewhere that Breckett Denniston, of the US Attorney’s office, felt that this whole thing was a set up, and then you say, well we can’t have that problem, here’s this letter out there saying that he works for Hubbard, we can’t endanger the source. We have to act. So, therefore here’s my proposal, and just the fact of having that goddam proposal of some guy standing up and saying I’ve got to defend source, you’ve got such incriminating information in the CSW, you follow? Even if they responded at all they’re acknowledging that this is, that’s true.

J So we put a letter together sayin’ that…

GA I’m saying a CSW and you keep your copy of the CSW. They’re goin to come around hunting, where the fuck is it? Ah, shit, got rid of it all except you’ve made it off the property and you’ve got it somewhere, type it off the property and bring it in, never there’s no problem bringing stuff in. Right? You could bring stuff in, and maybe you can’t sit  at your desk and type it, I don’t know, I don’t know the demographics and the geographies and anything else in the place, b[u]t it seems to me that it’s a much more high security deal than it was am I right?

J Yeah, a little difficult, just, in getting things typed, typing, you’re sitting typing, and typing things out…

GA Exactly…

J …and someone walks in, “What’s happening here?” What are you going to say?

GA But just maybe that sort of stuff can be done, issues could be created, stuff can go in. But, I mean I’m not really saying create, incriminating evidence of which



there are no facts, you know, but just to write about the speculation. I mean did you know that, that Ingram was retained by Lenske, Heller and Magnesson  on behalf or Hubbard?

J I know that the attorneys hire and pay, and run the PI’s.

GA Right. And isn’t that off policy?

J You gave me this thing here, yeah.

GA Yeah, that’s a goddammed policy quote.

J You see, but that’s the whole thing where, you know, the PIs are run by the attorneys, paid for, so the attorneys are running them, you know so, how can you put out an issue saying, you know, fire the PIs because it’s the attorneys doing it…the attorneys aren’t going to pay any attention to the issue, you know what I mean, that AH-

GA I know, I know, but you’ve got to simply say ‘Oh Fuck’ this is Off Policy now, we’ve got to get on source, and source, that’s the problem. You know you can, what are they going to do? Oh no, you’re off source…I don’t know…I mean it could be to that degree that they have such utter disregard for policy now that anyone who says this is off policy is just laughed at. Maybe that’s the way it is, policy-fuck. We’re the policy, asshole, maybe they’re that arrogant. That they don’t give a fiddler’s fuck about source and all his tech, I don’t know. I don’t know what the situation is inside, you guys obviously have your hand on that pulse a lot closer than I do. I only see that potentially there is a tremendous use to which that, which the communication lines could be put. Anyway, let’s continue on, I don’t know of I’ve left you with…I tell you…within a day, I’ll draft something…


J See if you can draft something, and we’ll go over it again.

GA Good. Alright. But there is the one thing, which I think in advance of, you know within a day, just divide up the group so…the organization…so let’s say you’ve got 35, let’s say that in the particular organization that, they’re…that they could possibly contact are 500 staff. I don’t know how many staff there are, a thousand? How many staff?

J More than a thousand.

GA So they divide it up, and you say, well. I can get this guy, this guy, this guy and this guy and it seems logical I’m working in LA org, so therefore I’m going to go to LA Org staff, I’m not going to approach ASI people. Whereas, you don’t want to anyway (laugh) because obviously they’re not the ones you want to survey. But



you want to survey at some levels down below in the organization. And that is simply a means of surveying without anyone, in other words the issue is the source of it and they can never tell where the issue came from.

J We gotta to go with the PI thing too?

GA Well, the PI is anoth…yeah, I think that something should be done so that they can capitalize on getting stuff, number one into writing, and number two, possibly unstablilil[ ] the whole PI, attorney apparatus. I passed onto Lipkin yesterday to go after Peterson, should go after him  with fucking tooth and nails, because Peterson’s probably been paid millions of dollars. Oh, listen, let me give you some names, Ah shit, I don’t know if I brought them. Can you guys get amounts of money to PI’s.

J That stuff…

GA Can you get amounts of money to Peterson?

J That stuff is in either in the attorney’s offices or in the legal area. Ah, …may have access to that.

GA So, you don’t have anyone who’s in legal, per se. Or high enough in legal that can –

J Not real high up. I mean, I don’t know, it’s an area we’re going to have to look at.

GA Well, how about finance records. We’re talking about how much was paid to Peterson. Well, Peterson’s virtually a sole practitioner, so if ten million dollars was paid to him, he didn’t provide that much service in a year. He’s bleeding them. Following me?

J Yeah.

GA So, what that means is a lot of people are being paid by him. And then you can say, well, shit, and we can isolate that two million was paid to Peterson and 8 million paid to PI’s. And if a million was paid to PI’s then you’ve got the fucking hottest lawsuit imaginable. And check other names, you know,  what’s his name, Beltrante, this guy down in Florida, Mueller, ah, I got a bunch of names from Mike and they’re in the car. But in any case, you guys I assume that you guys knew the names of the PI’s. Check the goddam finance_rscords, if you have access. This is the sort of stuff which you need in order to put together the, the coup de gras…

J Right, that’s the sort of stuff we need for our suit.

GA But, not only for your suit, but to give to the various people that are involved. So that they can, so that they can keep an eye out on … what the fuck is going down. You know, so that Bracket Denniston, who is


Investigating Ingram, knows. If we can get anything on Ingram, anything on Petersen, anything on finance records, anything on names of other PI’s and expend… and … disbursements to them, or anything on operation “X”, whatever that is, you know, what’s going down, it’s all vital. Ah, again, (laughs) here’s the thing…I get the idea from you, from talking to you and from talking to Danny, in a sense your people have felt thoroughly confident that over the next couple of years, they could, through a process of attrition, take over.

J Yeah, and you know…

GA It just seems…

J The guys at the top that are fighting, we don’t want to fight. We just want to run the organization peacefully.

GA Right. But, I don’t know if that’s realistic or not. In other words I don’t know where your people are placed. Maybe they have some rule where no one gets above this echelon, if they haven’t come through the CMO ranks. I don’t know, if you’ve got people in the CMO. Maybe it’s the one place that, they just get a mind, and that’s it, the things fucked, you’ve got a fucked mind, and they’re unbreakable, I don’t know. That’s for you guys to assess. Sure would fucking like to know, and that’s why I’d like to speak to your best legal mind and your best mind. I mean, whoever…if you’re the king pin and I’m talking to him….then….


J I’m not, I’m not on the committee.

GA OK. I’d like to speak to someone who knows everything (laughs). Otherwise…

J I will definitely pass that along.

GA Good. so you’ve got it anyway, there. Tell me more. Did you have more on anyone else. Doug Hay.

J Don’t have Doug Hay yet.

G OK. Anything else?

J Yeah. The committee was interested in, you mentioned to me a long time ago, you saw, like, the … that you were sort of like “the Meisner” of the Toronto raid, right?

GA Yeah

J We file this suit, so whoever files it will sort of be like the Meisner here, again. Is that right?

GA Well, this is a different thing. Mike was pretty adamant last night…did you qet the message from Dan, about Mike’s concern?

J Yeah.

GA Right. The difference is this, Meisner took off, right?


J Yeah.

GA I took off, Franks took off, Laurel took off, first Nelson took off, Mayo took off, OK? Every one of those people took off. We are all Meisners. You guys are not, because you have it within your power to stay there.  You have it within your power to simply say we are not moving. If you guys get pushed around, Mike’s recommendation [was] do not leave, stay there. Say we are the organization. An d also if you want to from here on out set up a communication line with me, so that if I’m not called every [24] hours, then I know to get the Feds and get down on the fucking doorstep.


J I don’t see any problem.

GA You don’t see anything like that?

J Not right now, no, not at all.

GA Well, he sees a great deal of risk. What if they do put a tap on our line, what if they do know something is going down but he says, ultimately, it’s no…see, I say I am more concerned about those guys than I am about my own skin. Because I’m here, in part at least, because I don’t give a fuck any more. You know. But I do kind of, I am pissed off with myself if I do something really dense and get somebody hurt, you know; but I also think , well, fuck, everyone’s made the choice they’ve  made, everyone’s made the alignment they’ve made, everyone’s going ahead to a great degree with their head out of the sand on this thing, and I think that hopefully no-one will get hurt.


I do see that the organization has accelerated the level of fanaticism with their pledges and with that kind of…that’s pretty scary literature. It’s fuckin’, when you get these guys pledged without thought for personal comfort or safety, for fuck’s sake, they’re saying, I’m going to go, and I’m taking you with me Jack. I mean that was a fanatic document. I gave that to the Feds already, and I’m giving them the other…

J What did they say? They thought it was fanatic, too?

GA Yeah, they thought it was fanatic, and—but they can’t do anything, but they are aware, they are aware. I drop the name Jonestown and they say yeah, we don’t want that. They don’t say, Oh, no, it’ll never happen. You know what I mean. It takes different forms. These guys are too sophisticated to try suicide as the resolution to their problems, I think, but they’re not too sophisticated to try and take out some people. That’s what I think anyway, alright.


J Do you have anything else for me?

GA No. I think you’ve got it.  The only other thing was,I’ve spoken to Al Lipkin. He wants to meet as soon as possible. You guys know my note from yesterday. That’s what Mike said. The next thing is I’m trying to…

J Which note?

GA The two notes there. One has a bunch of questions. These are my what is it you call it, a shopping list.

J Right. Your questions are on the back.

GA My questions are on the back, yeah.

J How much pay to Ingram, by whom, what corps and individuals. When each payment made, how much for all other PI’s prior to DM takeover and following. The specifics on this stuff.

GA Right.

J Now, once again, this is in attorneys’ offices and… maybe they can find out how much is paid to the   attorneys.


GA That’s how, that’s how I analyse it. The money flow is traceable. If they tell me…if they can say this much is…I tell you what…You should find out all payments made that went to attorneys, because I have people who can trace those bank accounts, and see where the disbursements went from those accounts. You following me? And whether or not there is the amount of money in the various client-trust accounts that there fucking well should be. In other words, are those deposits being made into his client trust account. Because every attorney has to have a client trust account. And the money has to go into that account, and Peterson did not earn 10 million dollars in fees in the last couple of years. No attorney is worth that. Just nobody makes then thousand bucks – ten million bucks a year. You don’t make that from a client.


Some superstar does, but not a guy who’s lost them the Armstrong case and lost them case after case after case and has them driven in deeper than before. (looking at someone) what is in his hand there? (shrugs shoulders) I don’t know if it was a camera or not. Anyway…

J fine. Alright, so your analysis from a philosophical viewpoint of transition after DM took over ….

GA What happened, what happened at that point? What was it like before and what happened then. And the reason for that is, the guy has violated policy. He came in and violated policy, and then find what the violations were. Find the basic, philosophic differences between what Scientology purported to be and what the reality was.


And that’s the sort of material which we’ll use to put


into the dammed affidavits. [  ]you guys have to insist that there is a differentiation between these activities and the religion of Scientology. No longer can the religion of Scientology hide behind PI activities being protected by the fuckin’ freedom of religion. That’s nuts, and that’ll destroy your religion. That’s what you have to convey. You see, that’s your viewpoint. Just the fact that you file a lawsuit, even without as Mike explained in that communication, right he answered those questions pretty well, I think. Even without having that type of information, you can cause a lawsuit, cause yourself to not be driven out of those buildings. You’re it, they can’t fire you, they can’t get rid of you, they can’t do it. And because you’re saying you’re it. And you’re saying I’m it, and the fact is they’re not it. They’ve got nothing on you, you’ve got a lot on them. Have you guys ever misspent money like that? Fuck no, you don’t have any. You guys are being paid a pauper’s wage, while those assholes are ripping it off. That’s the gist of the whole thing. Ah, policies are in violations of. Just think of anything, anything you can think of.

J Yeah, I got this one here. Using our professionals and not outside agencies. See BPL 3.5.74.

GA Right. Now for example. PC Folders. What does anyone know about PC folders? Are they moved around? Someone … was it you who called me a long time ego about pc folders?

J Oh, yeah, ages ago.

GA You called me … OK … somebody knew something about pc folders. I wish I had some time then, because it would have been e very interesting event, whatever, you had in mind. Ah, unfortunately I had to take off to London right away and I couldn’t delay. I wondered whether or not in fact someone was trying to get me to not go to London with the great carrot of the pc folders. (laughs) But anyway, you know what I want …

J We’ve been over that one. Anyhow, people come to sign various agreements da da da. OK.

GA This is an important thing, you know, as Mike said, for example, the undated resignations of these Board members. What does the board. You’ve got people, who are on the Board, what do they know about what’s going on? They’re the board members, they’re the secular in charges, right?

Well, they say the Board is not ecclesiastic. So are they trying to say that the PIs are ecclesiastic activities?

J I don’t know.

GA I think I got the rest.


GA Hold on. Good


GA Now, tell me about, what else you had to tell me about. Or should we go?

J Why don’t we… what time do you have to leave?

GA I don’t have to leave… Well, I’m going to have to call my wife at some point if I’m not able to get back. I don’t know how far you’re driving, or if you have this thing set up, or anything about it.

J Yeah, we can go see the girl … for a while, so why don’t we do that?

GA Yea, it’s a good idea. And then?

J That’s it.

GA That’s a good plan.

J She’s at Sheraton Grand, downtown. So we’ll just zip on down there.

GA Do you trust her?

J Yeah. I don’t think we should get into real heavy st6uff with her. She wants to meet you and to see you like, you know, …

GA Do you have a room number for her?

J Yeah.

GA Can you give it to me, ‘cause I’ll take my own car.

J Yeah, Center One.

GA And where is this?

J You just follow me.

GA IT’s right downtown, on what, fifth, sixth, in that area?


J It’s right next to the Bonaventure.


J So I’ll just get on the freeway.

GA I have to take a leak, where can I go?  Probably over there.

J Yeah, I’ll wait for you.

(Several minutes of no dialog)

GA How long have you got ‘til?


J Oh, about an hour [or] so.

GA OK. Let me ask you another couple of questions. How much difficulty do the other people have getting out?

J Because you see it’s like you know my senior doesn’t know that I do this. You know what I mean? You gotta…

GA No. How much [ ] like, you live off the base, right? (J: Yeah) How much trouble do the other people, the guys I want to talk to…

J You see they’re all in the Sea Org, you know. They have you know…

GA Right. So, here’s the thing; we can create, you know, they should come up with a cousin who is in the Marine Corps in San Diego and just got in here from Illinois and call them up and they can get a fuckin’ couple days off, you know. You write a CSW, a big flap, Joe is here you know, don’t worry, he’s in ARC about Scientology or however the bullshit way. You—there are CSWs to get off the base and we you arrange it actually have calls in. This guy tracks him down. You can go, “Oh piss” you follow me and we can get off for a lot of time and get a couple of days off or whatever.

J Actually go over all the strategy.

GA Go over it and work some stuff out and piss off into the mountain snow for a couple of days. You know, rent a cabin somewhere and work it out or rent a hotel room somewhere but spring someone. I think it has to happen pretty soon, if we’re talking about any kind or a realistic …

J Yeah, we’re going to go.

GA Good. But I can work that sort of thing. You give me a number, I can call up. I can play whatever role they want. In fact, it won’t even by my voice, it will be someone else. Can track down your guy and create a flap at reception about where’s Joe you know and I want to speak to Joe and no shit they finally get Joe to the phone and the whole story’s all substantiated. In other words, it doesn’t have to come from him, it comes from everyone else.

J Oh, I see.

GA So you can spring him. They can say “oh shit” well you better handle that PTS situation. You know, this is Joe my cousin and you know my Aunt is really, she’s been slightly antago all these years. Someone has got a  post that these are people in or even an old buddy from school. Oh shit, it’s this guy he talked to my mother and found out that I was out here and called Scientology,


He knows that I work for Scientology. Fuckers tracked me down, I gotta take some time off otherwise it’ll be weird. You know what I mean? I gotta handle a screaming PTS “A” situation.

J That would be got. That would be good.

GA That’s the kind of thing that I want wanna work out so we can spend some time together with someone. You guys. [I think] we ought to mutually trust each other. That’s [where it’s at] these days. It’s fucking scary. This whole thing is scary, but at the same time it’s been actually exciting up to now. And I would like it to go faster. I’ll follow you.

J Let’s meet in the lobby and we’ll go up together.

GA Alright.

J Sheraton Grand.

GA 3rd and Grand?

J No, it’s called the Sheraton Grand. You follow me. What I’m going to do is I’m going to get on the freeway here and get onto the Pasadena/Harbor Freeway and get off at the first exit and then I’ll go there. We’ll go in the parking garage and if we get lost we’ll meet in the lobby.

GA OK. I’ll follow you.



  1. This document in pdf format.
  2. This document is Exhibit B to Declaration of John G. Peterson (22 January 1986) filed in Armstrong 1.
  3. Scientology submitted a partial transcript of this meeting in their 1023 submission to the IRS: Exhibit III-10-Q: Transcript of meeting between J and GA on 7 November 1984 (1993).
  4. CESO: Cedars Estates Service Organization
  5. CW: Clearwater