IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE STATE OF OREGON
FOR THE COUNTY OF MULTNOMAH
JULIE CHRISTOFFERSON TITCHBOURNE,
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY, MISSION OF DAVIS, a non-profit California corporation, doing business in Oregon; CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA, a California corporation, doing business in Oregon; and L. RON HUBBARD,
EXCERPT OF PROCEEDINGS 1
April 10, 1985
(Following is transcript of tape of November 9, 1984.)
MR. JOEY: Hey, man. I like this place.They’re throwing money at us.
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4503
MR. ARMSTRONG: Where had it come from?
MR. JOEY: A lot of traffic coming up?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. That’s why I’m late.
MR. JOEY: Train still here?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Are we going to meet the young lady?
MR. JOEY: Yeah. We can still do that. Did you bring any drawings?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Which kinds of drawings? Oh, my drawings? Yeah. Yeah. I brought a bunch.
MR. JOEY: That’s great. That’s great.
MR. ARMSTRONG: So tell me what’s going on.
MR. JOEY: Excitement. Excitement.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Is it really?
MR. JOEY: Yeah. Yeah. The general mood is like we’re going and we’re going fast and there’s just exhuberance. You got something to take some notes? I want to give you some stuff.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, shit. Hang on, I’ll get —
MR. JOEY: Here, I’ll give you something here.
MR. ARMSTRONG: You got a pen, as well?
MR. JOEY: Would you rather have your own number?
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4504
MR. ARMSTRONG: No, this is fine. Give me that paper, as well. Continuing things are accelerating. Boy, you know, I was photographed.
MR. JOEY: Yeah. Danny told me.
MR. ARMSTRONG: He had a blue car — light blue, late model, boxy looking thing. I think, a white top. A license number DD-something. Three org guys.
MR. JOEY: Where’d it take place?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, Vermont, going on to the highway.
MR. JOEY: Your not afraid of going by the complex or nothing, then, huh?
MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m not afraid of — why?
MR. JOEY: I just sort of — you know —
MR. ARMSTRONG: No, but I’d like you to find out who they were. I want to know the full license number because they got me right while I was turning. Normally I can get it, but I was right turning off of Vermont, and they were right beside me and, you know, these guys, there’s three guys in the car — one guy is kind of like a CESO, used to be a CESO. Do they have CESO, still?
MR. JOEY: Yeah.
MR. ARMSTRONG: What is it, the estates?
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4505
MR. JOEY: The estate guys, yeah.
MR. ARMSTRONG: He was sort of like an eastern guy, but he’s probably a CMO guy, you know. I’ve seen Sandy — is it Sandy Gomberg, one of the Gombergs who’s a — used to handle dishes in there. You know Randy?
MR. JOEY: No, I don’t know him.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, he was a CMO flunkie when I was inside. So he spotted me on the street and then I saw him pass me onto this guy, and I think he’s a CMO guy. He’s about six one, six two, reddish hair, lightish hair; a little lighter, a little redder than yours, I recall. I know him if I see him. After then, you know, a couple of miles — I don’t know — how far is the turnoff there? A couple of miles? A mile from the Organization? These assholes pull up alongside me and, you know, there’s a blond guy, real, real blond hair —
MR. JOEY: Right.
MR. ARMSTRONG: — driving. The guy beside him, I think, had dark hair and he had a funny little camera just clicking away. So, you know, I gave him something — you know, something.
MR. JOEY: I understand. I understand.
MR. ARMSTRONG: I wanted to use — I was
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4506
thinking, you know, the F;umm, you know, the shots they have of Flynn and Hoffman, they look so ominous. Anyway, but I want to get the suckers’ names and I tried to get the whole license number. CID will run a make on the car. I want to get their names. They should be around the org. Somebody can just ask, “Oh, did you hear? Somebody just spotted Armstrong,” or whatever they do. Get me names.
MR. JOEY: So what did they look like?
MR. ARMSTRONG: The car? It’s a late model. Box-like car. Light-blue bottom, white top. License plate DD, and then I think there was perhaps a third D or another letter.
MR. JOEY: I’m sorry, light-blue bottom and what?
MR. ARMSTRONG: And a white top. My recollection, you know —
MR. JOEY: And license what? DD —
MR. ARMSTRONG: DD blank, you know, three numbers, whatever.
MR. JOEY: Okay.
MR. ARMSTRONG: It should be around the Organization, because it was all org staffers, you know. It looked like it, anyway. Maybe these guys can recruit some PIs that quick. Maybe they’re surrounding and the place is cordoned off. But in
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4507
any case, these guys, I’d like to get the names and the number to run a make on it simply because I happen to be a federal witness, and you don’t fucking go intimidate guys like that. And so the Organization can be hit real hard. The CID wants to make them, and I don’t want my life fucked around like that, so anyway — so that’s why I’d like it.
MR. JOEY: Okay. You wanted data on some people.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
MR. JOEY: Okay. DM —
MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
MR. JOEY: — drives a red Datsun. It’s a dark red Datsun. Last five months he’s been at ASI. Before that he was at Gilman —
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
MR. JOEY: — for about roughly eight months and he was doing picture stuff, sound stuff, you know. And this is interesting, about a month back he was in D.C, and word has it when he was there he was speaking to the IRS.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
MR. JOEY: Then after that he was in Philadelphia, and he spoke at an event down in CW.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. About a month ago?
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4508
MR. JOEY: D.C. a month ago, and Philly and Flag after that.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
MR. JOEY: Okay?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yep.
MR. JOEY: Wendall eynolds and Steve Marlow, they went on the RPF almost a year ago and they’re at Gilman’s.
MR. ARMSTRONG: They are, still?
MR. JOEY: No, I don’t know that. They were on the RPF at Gilman’s. It’s hard to trace guys on the RPF because sometimes they’re just sort of, you know —
MR. ARMSTRONG: Or their personnel records? Haven’t seen them. This is all just what people know.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, okay. So —
MR. JOEY: I’m sure they have personnel records.
MR. ARMSTRONG: No one that we have any control of can look in the compputer records and personnel transfers. Are they located? Or do you know the staff members names, or no?
MR. JOEY: I don’t have access to computers. We don’t have access to computers.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, you don’t? Okay. That’s good
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4509
to know. I thought you had someone in there, but that’s fine.
MR. JOEY: Well, I mean we can get, not on a regular basis but we can get snippets.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
MR. JOEY: Okay. Also, I want to tell you on — this is coming from the Committee — they were real pleased with our exchanges.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, good. Okay.
MR. JOEY: So they want me to give this information and, you know, I’ll be talking stuff back and going over it with them.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
MR. JOEY: Great. So LA FBI case —
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
MR. JOEY: The word has it is that the Church really wants to go to town on this thing. Have you heard? The Church claims they got some evidence of judge tampering —
MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
MR. JOEY: — by the FBI, and stuff like that. Well, now the latest thing is that they’re real shocked because a couple of FBI agents go in and they stare at this judge — the same one that they claim they got the judge tampering with, so
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4510
they think this is a further thing even on top of it so they just —
MR. ARMSTRONG: They stare at the judge?
MR. JOEY: Supposedly. Word has it that FBI guys go in and stare at this judge, trying to intimidate him or something. Anyway —
MR. ARMSTRONG: That seems like it would be their tip. That sounds like Scientology horseshit, you know. All right, now, staring —
MR. JOEY: So you got that?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
MR. JOEY: Great. Now the Homer issue, suit, they are fucking laughing about this.
MR. ARMSTRONG: They laugh?
MR. JOEY: Yeah. It’s like a joke. Well, first of all it’s not really on C of S lines.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
MR. JOEY: But word — I mean like, you know, it’s sort of like ASI is handling it so we don’t really know — I mean like, you know, you hear the guys talking and like basically, the suit, and what they’re saying is, it’s crazy and wild stuff. The big thing is — this is the thing, the inside thing these guys are joking about this thing that — the big thing is that he’s real upset because
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4511
they’re supposedly holding his daughter. Well, they’re laughing. They come back and they’re laughing. “Man, have you ever known Homer to care anything about his daughter?” you know. He didn’t care about his daughter. He just left her. Da, da, da, da, da — I mean, that’s the tone of this, the joke.
MR. ARMSTRONG: So I’ve seen this sort of thing before, you know. It was like Tonya Burden, and I suppose Armstrong, and I suppose anyone who’s come out of the woodwork, it was always that. That’s a pretty standard thing. It was like they would have probably felt in the beginning about Flynn and the Tamimi thing. Kind of like it’s a joke. They’re going to handle it. “We know all about you assholes. We’re going to get Flynn, we’re going to get Homer.”
MR. JOEY: Yeah. Well, it’s slightly different here because I say that I have got lots of people who know that he didn’t take care of his daughter and he wasn’t concerned about her then; why is he concerned about her now? And there’s no way they’re holding her and — anyway, that’s — that’s information for you.
Also, they’re talking about — they’re saying
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4512
that Homer ripped off a and then when the suit actually gets served and go to town on it, and I mean they’re saying, “We’re going to get Homer,” you know. It’s not going to look good for him. He’s going to be in trouble when the suit gets going. What I’m trying to say is that the ASI guys don’t think this is any big deal.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, they think it’s a big deal. But this is the standard way they approach everything. They think initially nothing’s a big deal, I think that’s pretty standard.
MR. JOEY: Okay. Great.
MR. ARMSTRONG: My opinion, I would — let me just think. When you talk about these people talking like that, who’re we talking about?
MR. JOEY: I mean ASI guys come over and they just —
MR. ARMSTRONG: Who?
MR. JOEY: I don’t know. I didn’t hear. This comes from the Committee.
MR. ARMSTRONG: I see. It would be good to have some names. Sort of like I understand they have some —
MR. JOEY: Let me note that down. You want some names. See if we can get who’s talking about
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4513
MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. When we’re talking about these people, who are we talking about? Who are these people?
MR. JOEY: Who’s talking about the Homer suit, in ASI.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, who’s ASI? Who are these people? Give me an org Board. Tell me who the opposition is, who knows what? Where does Mark Yager fit in all this? You know, what is the actual line of control? Who’s in charge? Because someone is.
All right. You know, the people who are talking about this suit, were they in a position to be dealing with the suit or were they being told something by someone else who was just hyping them? Or maybe it is a weak suit. I think that everything that has happened so far of a long-range effect has hurt the Organization. Oh, they win with the Band-Aid philosophy, but in the long run, I think, they’re going to take a bath.
Anyhow, we’ll push on.
MR. JOEY: So I’ll see what I can get on that.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yep.
MR. JOEY: Okay. Any news from Michael?
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4514
MR. ARMSTRONG: No.
MR. JOEY: Great. I got this. This is good.
MR. ARMSTRONG: By the way, I’ll never admit that anything comes from Michael, including any complaints which I may have drafted.
MR. JOEY: Why is that?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Because that’s how I’ve got to approach it.
MR. JOEY: Okay.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Did they understand all this?
MR. JOEY: I think so, yes.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Jesus Christ.
MR. JOEY: Oh, I just lost something. I’ll get it.
We need a rock, I think. We need a rock to hold on to this.
Got it all. Got it all. Got it all.
MR. ARMSTRONG: When will we see the lady?
MR. JOEY: Oh, in a little bit. Let me finish this up here. I want to go over (Inaudible.) what you went over with Danny yesterday on those doc ideas. I saw Danny real briefly; he handed me this thing and briefly told me he had a little trouble yesterday and he said he went over some doc ideas.
MR. ARMSTRONG: The doc ideas were simply
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4515
what we talked about. Let me ask you — you guys write stuff. You’re all writers to some degree. People can draft the stuff. It just seems like the guts of — you know, there’s three things right — there’s personnel and comm lines and money. That’s about it. And organization’s comm lines are of various kinds, and I think that you can use the fact, you know, realize what their many comm lines are and plug into them. That’s all I was trying to convey. As far as anything specific, I’ve given you the one thing which I think is a fairly smart idea which is to use an issue as an assessment. It would happen everywhere. They could never tell, you know, if it was done right. It would be in all the baskets and they could never tell.
MR. JOEY: So what would happen? I mean —
MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, in that particular instance, if you had the organization divided up into, for lack of any other term, cells, and you divided your people up so that they’re the — they’re the only one in the cell, and I contact various people and ask particular questions. I assume they’re all in the intelligence game to some degree, so they’re all actors. Right? I mean, it’s that kind of a thing. And there’s the other use to
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4516
which issues are put. There’s an absolute frontal attack. I mean, I got this issue, the one on me and the other five, and I think it’s important, because what happens outside is that all of a sudden these people kind of rally together. So there’s ways that stuff that’s written can be used. The specifics of it, in a way, you guys would have to work out.
MR. JOEY: So I guess an issue’s put together like an assessment, survey.
MR. ARMSTRONG: I tell you what, within the next twenty-four hours I’ll give you an idea. I’ll write something and we can just toss around how can it be used.
MR. JOEY: That would be great, that’d be great.
MR. ARMSTRONG: And once you’ve — here’s the way I potentially see it. Let’s say that this woman did decide to back this thing and she figured that might as well do something with my life, might as well get off the great rich fence and grovel with the boys for a awhile, and what if she decided and she said, “Well, shit. I’m going to finance some of this.”
Well, we could set up a press and we could produce issues and then we could set up a network
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4517
and we could communication lines running outside the organization,, And you could create a pool of information just as an immediate thing, we get ourselves — you guys get yourselves an attorney and work out the exact legal things to be done.
Oh, by the way, I spoke to Al Lipkin last night after I was photographed. I went down and saw him because we had talked, and I had told him, “It looks like, just maybe, one or some of these guys are going to want to talk with you.” And he was, you know, to some degree, elated, but they never say anything. I told him at that time, I said, “In my opinion, the organization at the top is potentially very fanatic and people could get hurt. If these people that I’m in touch with are brave enough to stick their neck on the line and say, “Enough of the bullshit, okay.” So I said, “I’m not saying that this is going to happen. I’m not saying that there’s going to be bloodshed, but I think that you guys ought to be aware enough that this is going down or potentially it is, so that you’ve got some things worked out in advance.”
And he’s smart enough. He already talks about safe houses and relocating and renaming people. But I said, “Well, I don’t know what can be
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4518
done.” He keeps asking me, “What can be done?” I say, “I don’t know.” But I think as an initial thing, what makes sense to me is that the people who are going to put their names on that document —
MR. JOEY: The suit?
MR. ARMSTRONG: — on the suit, see you in advance, because as soon as that happens, they become Federal witnesses and the organization’s not going to fuck with them. Or if it does —
MR. JOEY: That’s what Al said?
MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s what I said. And he said, “That’s the best protection that they’ve got initially.” He said, “You know, beyond that, let’s just keep in touch on a real close basis.”
I called him last night after work because I had some more thoughts, and I called him again this morning, you know. I’m on the phone to the guy real tight, and I don’t know, but they’re the best the government’s got to offer, you know, and if the government of the United States can’t take on these little assholes down there, we’re really in deep kaka.
MR. JOEY: Got it. Okay. Let’s finish on the documents and then get back to Al Lipton. Where were we on that?
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4519
MR. ARMSTRONG: On the documents?
MR. JOEY: So I gave you —
MR. ARMSTRONG: You gave me a whole bunch.
MR. JOEY: A whole bunch. And you looked at the type styles and that kind of stuff. Right?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
MR. JOEY: You know how to —
MR. ARMSTRONG: You’re not wired, are you?
MR. JOEY: No.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. What are our conversations, should it come down to it?
MR. JOEY: What do you mean?
MR. ARMSTRONG: What do we talk about? You’re deposed. You walk out there and there’s a PI hands you a paper saying you’re deposed, Jack, and not only that, you’re out of the organization. And what do you say in deposition? Well, Armstrong and I talked about this and he had a whole bunch of ideas about how to infiltrate the communication lines and spread turmoil and disaster, you know. What are we doing here? That’s my question, before I tell you my ideas on documents.
MR. JOEY: Well, what I got is basically loyalists gotta, we gotta move. We’ve got the suit coming up and I guess we need other lines to get
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4520
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, you do. And I think people should talk to Lipkin, and I think we should make it as soon as possible to do it. And I also think that — I’ve got a request into a couple of attorneys now who unfortunately can’t represent you guys, but I said, “Well, what if I can get twenty thousand bucks up front?” And they said they should have no idea coming up with a lawyer. They’re trying to find, at this time, what lawyer makes sense. Now, maybe you guys have got one. Seems like you haven’t.
As an important aside, Dave Jordan called up Mike Flynn today. Remember, Dave Jordan called Danny awhile back?
MR. JOEY: Yeah.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Dave Jordan spoke to Mike, mentioned the the name Dan Sherman and said that — at least Mike got, that Jordan thought Dan was a double agent. Now, maybe Jordan doesn’t know about — doesn’t know enough about what is going on. Maybe he’s a triple agent, you know what I mean? Who knows what, but in any case, it seems like if Jordan is talking about Dan, perhaps something is going on. You know what I mean? You guys just
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4521
should know that is going on. Now, maybe Jordan’s in your pocket; I don’t know, I have no idea. But I wanted to pass that on.
MR. JOEY: Jordan’s not a loyalist.
MR. ARMSTRONG: He’s not?
MR. JOEY: No. I don’t know everybody but —
MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So far as the doc — let me just say, you and I get together, we get together because I have a goal of global settlement. You have felt that the turmoil and the abuses and so on have gone on too long; hence we get together and discuss things. We have not discussed anything about a destruction of the tech or that Scientology is bad or anything like that. Are we agreed?
MR. JOEY: Yeah.
MR. ARMSTRONG: There’s a radio. That’s a state car.
So it seems to my that the use of the communication lines — I don’t know, maybe you guys are using them, but it seems to me that you don’t have a way of printing anything to get an issue on the lines, used for anything; right? I’m saying that I can do it. I can type those goddamn things and duplicate them and make them look exactly the same. You can’t. You would not be able to tell the
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4522
difference. You know, maybe under a microscope you can tell the type of faces, you know, this ones got a little crack on the T and this one doesn’t. You’d be able to tell that and they will know. But that happens to be — that only happens to be one little piece of it. You put out another issue the next day for a totally different purpose. You guys are going to need to put out issues when this thing happens, you got to inform the crew. You should be preparing right now, in my opinion, goddamn affidavits that I can be — that we can put into a computer and have run off and ready to go. I can write — I write legal shit; that’s why I want to know your best legal mind. I’d like to talk to him. Maybe you’re it; I don’t know.
MR. JOEY: I’m not it, no.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. But I’d like to, so we’re really in sync on this thing. Same as the overall best mind. I have no compulsion to — you know, I’ll talk to them through — around the corner. I don’t have to see anybody. But I really want to know that we are in sync and that we’re using all the resources that we can. I don’t know what you’ve got. I’m telling you basically what I’ve got. One thing I have got is mobility.
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4523
MR. JOEY: We can put the CSW together. We can handle distribution.
MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s exactly the sort — the CSW is the greatest weapon you guys got. You know, the CSW about the situation with the PIs given that someone is in a position that they would be doing such a thing. I think, you know, how about if — I’ve got a letter that says that Eugene Ingram works for L. Ron Hubbard, you know. Okay. Okay. Then you say, well, let’s say you guys have the information somewhere that Bracket Dennison of the US Attorneys office felt that this whole thing was a setup and then you say, “Well, we can’t have that problem. Here’s this letter out there saying that he works for Hubbard. We can’t endanger the source. We have to act.” So thereof, here’s my proposal. And just the fact of having that goddamn proposal of some guy standing up and saying, “I’ve got to defend source,” you’ve got such incriminating information on the CSW. You follow? Even if they responded at all, they’re acknowledging that this is — that’s true.
MR. JOEY: So we put a letter together saying that.
MR. ARMSTRONG: I’m saying a CSW, and you
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4524
keep your copy of the CSW. They’re going to come around hunting. “Where the fuck is it? Ah shit, got rid of it all.” Except you’ve made it off the property and you’ve got it somewhere. Type it off the property and bring it in. Never there’s no problem bringing stuff in. Right? You could bring stuff in and maybe you can’t sit at your desk and type it; I don’t know. I don’t know the demographics and the geographics and anything else in the place, but it seems to me that it’s a much more high-security deal than it was. Am I right?
MR. JOEY: Yeah, a little difficult. Just in getting things typed — typing, your sitting typing and typing things out —
MR. ARMSTRONG: Exactly.
MR. JOEY: — and someone walks in, “What’s happening here?” What are you going to say?
MR. ARMSTRONG: But just maybe that sort of stuff can be done: issues could be created, stuff can go in. But I mean I’m not really saying create incrimination evidence of which there are no facts, you know, but just to write about the speculation. I mean, did you know that, that Ingram was retained by Lenske, Heller and Magnesson on behalf of Hubbard?
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4525
MR. JOEY: I know that the attorneys hire and pay and run the PIs.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. And isn’t that off policy?
MR. JOEY: You gave me this thing here, yeah.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that’s a goddamned policy quote.
MR. JOEY: You see, but that’s the whole thing where, you know, the PIs are run by the attorneys, paid for, so the attorneys are running them, you know, so how can you put out an issue saying, you know, fire the PIs, because it’s the attorneys doing it — the attorneys aren’t going to pay any attention to the issue, you know what I mean? That —
MR. ARMSTRONG: I know. I know. But you’ve got to simply say, “Oh, fuck.” This is off policy now. We’ve got to get on source, and source, that’s the problem. You know you can. What are they going to do? Oh, no, you’re off source for saying that you’re on source — I don’t know — I mean, it could be to that degree that they have such utter disregard for policy now that anyone who says this is off policy is just laughed at. Maybe that’s the way it is. Policy-fuck. “We’re the policy,
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4526
asshole.” Maybe they’re that arrogant that they don’t give a fiddler’s fuck about source and all his tech, I don’t know. I don’t know what the situation is inside, you see.
You guys obviously have your hands on that pulse a lot closer than I do. I only see that potentially there’s a tremendous use to which that — which the communication lines could be put.
Anyway, let’s continue on. I don’t know if I’ve left you with — I tell you — within a day, I’ll draft something.
MR. JOEY: See if you can draft something and we’ll go over it again.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. All right. But there is the one thing which I think in advance of — you know, within a day, just divide up the group so — the organization, so let’s say you’ve got thirty-five, let’s say that in the particular organization that they’re — that they could possibly contact are five hundred staff. I don’t know how many staff there are. A thousand? How many staff?
MR. JOEY: More than a thousand.
MR. ARMSTRONG: So they divide it up and you say, “Well, I can get this guy, this guy, this guy,
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4527
and this guy, and it seems logical — I’m working in LA Org, so therefore I’m going to go to LA Org staff, I’m not going to approach ASI people. Whereas, you don’t want to anyway, because obviously they’re not the ones you want to survey. But you want to survey at some levels down below in the organization. And that is simply a means of surveying without anyone — in other words, the issue is the source of it and they can never tell where the issue came from.
MR. JOEY: Got to go with the PI thing, too?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, the PI is another — yeah, I think that something should be done so that they can capitalize on getting stuff, number one, into writing; and number two, possibly unstablizing the whole PI/attorney apparatus. I passed onto Lipkin yesterday to go after Peterson, should go after him with fucking tooth and nails, because Peterson’s probably been paid millions of dollars.
Oh, listen, let me give you names. Ah shit, I don’t know if I brought them. Can you guys get amounts of money to PIs?
MR. JOEY: That stuff —
MR. ARMSTRONG: Can you get amounts of money to Peterson?
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4528
MR. JOEY: That stuff is in either in the attorney’s offices or in the legal area. I may have access to that.
MR. ARMSTRONG: So you don’t have anyone who’s in legal, per se, or high enough in legal that can?
MR. JOEY: Not real high up. I mean, I don’t know. It’s an area we’re going to have to look at.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, how about finance records? We’re talking about how much was paid to Peterson. Well, Peterson’s virtually a sole practitioner, so if ten million dollars was paid to him, he didn’t provide that much service in a year; he’s bleeding them. Following me?
MR. JOEY: Yeah.
MR. ARMSTRONG: So what that means is a lot of people are being paid by him. And then you can say, “Well, shit.” And we can isolate that two million was paid to Peterson and eight million paid to PIs. And if eight million was paid to PIs, then you’ve got the fucking hotest lawsuit imaginable. And check other names, you know, what’s his name, Beltrante, this guy down in Florida. Mueller. I got a bunch of names from Mike and they’re in the car.
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4529
But in any case, you guys — I assume that you guys know the names of the PIs. Check the goddamn finance records if you have access. This is the sort of stiff which you need in order to put together the — the coup de gras.
MR. JOEY: Right. That’s the sort of stuff we need for our suit.
MR. ARMSTRONG: But not only for your suit, but to give to the various people that are involved so that they can — so that they can keep an eye out on — what the fuck is going down. You know. So that Bracket Dennison, who is investigating Ingram, knows. If we can get anything on Ingram, anything on Peterson, anything on finance records, anything on names of other PIs and expend — and disbursements to them, or anything on operation “X”, whatever that is, you know, what’s going down, it’s all vital.
Again, here’s the thing. I get the ideas from you, from talking to you and from talking to Danny, in a sense you people have felt thoroughly confident that over the next couple of years they could — through a process of attrition, take over.
MR. JOEY: Yeah, and you know —
MR. ARMSTRONG: It just seems —
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4530
MR. JOEY: The guys at the top that are fighting, we don’t want to fight. We just want to run the organization peacefully.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. But I don’t know if that’s realistic or not. In other words, I don’t know where your people are placed. Maybe they have some rule where no one gets above this echelon, if they haven’t come through the CMO ranks, I don’t know. If you’ve got people in the CMO. Maybe it’s the one place that they just get a mind and that’s it. The thing’s fucked. You’ve got a fucked mind and they’re unbreakable. I don’t know. That’s for you guys to assess.
Sure would fucking like to know. And that’s why I’d like to speak to your best legal mind and your best mind. I mean, whoever — if you’re the king pin and I’m talking to him, then —
MR. JOEY: I’m not. I’m not on the committee.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I’d like to speak to someone who knows everything, otherwise —
MR. JOEY: I will definitely pass that along.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Good. So you’ve got it anyway, there. Tell me more. Did you have more on anyone else? Doug Hay?
MR. JOEY: Don’t have Doug Hay yet.
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4531
MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Anything else?
MR. JOEY: Yeah. The committee was interested in — you mentioned to me a long time ago, you saw, like, the — that you were sort of like “the Meisner” of the Toronto raid; right?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
MR. JOEY: We file this suit, so whoever files it will sort of be like the Meisner here, again; is that right?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, this is a different thing. Mike was pretty adamant last night. Did you get the message from Dan about Mike’s concern?
MR. JOEY: Yeah.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. The difference is this. Meisner took off; right?
MR. JOEY: Yeah.
MR. ARMSTRONG: I took off, Franks took off, Laurel took off, first Nelson took off, Mayo took off. Okay? Every one of these people took off. We are all Meisners. You guys are not, because you have it within your power to stay there. You have it within your power to simply say, “We are not moving,” and watch what happens if you guys said that. If you guys get pushed around, Mike’s recommendation was, don’t leave, stay there. Say,
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4532
“We are the organization.” And also if you want to, from here on out, set up a communication line with me so that if I’m not called every twenty-four hours, then I know to get the Feds and get down on the fucking doorstep.
MR. JOEY: I don’t see any problem.
MR. ARMSTRONG: You don’t see anything like that?
MR. JOEY: Not right now, no, not at all.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, he sees a great deal of risk. What if they do put a tap on our line? What if they do know something is going down? But he says ultimately it’s no — see, I say, I am more concerned about those guys than I am about my own skin because I’m here, in part at least, because I don’t give a fuck any more. You know. But I do kind of. I am pissed off with myself if I do something really dense and get somebody hurt, you know. But I also think, “Well, fuck, everyone’s made the choice they’ve made, everyone’s made the alignment they’ve made, everyone’s going ahead to a great degree with their head out of the sand on this thing, and I think that hopefully no one will get hurt.” I do see that the organization has accelerated the level of fanaticism with their
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4533
pledges and with that kind of — that’s pretty scary literature. It’s fucking — when you get these guys pledged without thought for personal comfort or safety, for fuck’s sake, they’re saying, “I’m going to go and I’m taking you with me, Jack,” I mean that was a fanatic document, I gave that to the Feds already and I’m giving them the other —
MR. JOEY: What did they say? They thought it was fanatic, too?
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, they thought it was fanatic. And — but they can’t do anything, but they are aware. They are aware. I drop the name Jonestown and they say, “Yeah, we don’t want that.” They don’t say, “Oh, no, it will never happen.” You know what I mean? It takes different forms. These guys are too sophisticated to try suicide as the resolution to their problems, I think, but they’re not too sophisticated to try and take out some people.
That’s what I think, anyway. All right.
MR. JOEY: Did you have anything else for me?
MR. ARMSTRONG: No, I think you’ve got it. The only other thing was, I’ve spoken to Al Lipkin. He wants to meet as soon as possible. You guys know my note from yesterday. That’s what Mike said. The
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4534
next thing is, I’m trying to —
MR. JOEY: Which note?
MR. ARMSTRONG: The two notes there. One has a bunch of questions. These are my — what is it you call it? — a shopping list.
MR. JOEY: Right. Your questions are on the back.
MR. ARMSTRONG: My questions are at the back, yeah.
MR. JOEY: How much pay to Ingram? By whom? What corps and individuals? When each payment made? How much for all other PIs prior to DM takeover? And following the specifications on this stuff.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
MR. JOEY: You know, once again, this is in attorney’s offices and — maybe they can find out how much is paid to the attorneys.
MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s how — that’s how I analyze it. The money flow is traceable. If they tell me — if they can say this much is — I tell you what, you should find out all payments made that went to attorneys, because I have people who can trace those bank accounts and see where the disbursements went from those accounts. You following me? And whether or not there is the
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4535
amount of money in the various client trust accounts that there fucking well should be. In other words, are those deposits being made into his client trust account? Because every attorney has to have a client trust account. And the money has to go into that account. And Peterson did not earn ten million dollars in fees in the last couple of years. No attorney is worth that. Just nobody makes ten thousand bucks — ten million bucks a year. You don’t make that from a client. Some superstar does, but not a guy who’s lost them the Armstrong case and lost them case after case after case and has them driven in deeper than before.
What is in his hand there? I don’t know if it was a camera or not. Anyway —
MR. JOEY: Fine. All right. So your analysis from a philosohical viewpoint of transition after DM took over —
MR. ARMSTRONG: What happened? What happened at that point? What was it like before and what happened then? And the reason for that is, the guy has violated policy. He came in and violated policy. And then find what the violations were, find the basic philosophical differences between what Scientology purported to be and what the
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4536
reality was. And that’s the sort of material which we’ll use to put into the goddamned affidavits.
And you guys have to insist there is a differentiation between these activities and the religion of Scientology. No longer can the religion of Scientology hide behind PI activities being protected by the fucking freedom of religion. That’s nuts. And that’ll destroy your religion. That’s what you have to convey. You see, that’s your viewpoint.
Just the fact that you file a lawsuit, even without, as Mike explained in that communications, right, he answered those questions pretty well, I think. Even without having that type of information, you can cause a lawsuit, cause yourself to not be driven out of those buildings. You’re it. They can’t fire you. They can’t get rid of you. They can’t do it. And because you are saying you’re it, and you’re saying, “I’m it,” and the fact is, they’re not it. They’ve got nothing on you, you’ve got a lot on them. Have you guys ever misspent money like that? Fuck, no. You don’t have any. You guys are being paid a pauper’s wage while those assholes are ripping it off. That’s the gist of the whole thing. Policies are in violation of. Just
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4537
think of anything, anything you can think of.
MR. JOEY: Yeah, I got this one here, using our professionals and not outside agencies. See BPL 3574.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. Now, for example, PC folders, what does anyone know about PC folders? Are they moved around? Someone — was it you who called me a long time ago about PC folders?
MR. JOEY: Oh, yeah, ages ago.
MR. ARMSTRONG: You called me — Okay. Somebody knew something about PC folders. I wish I had some time, then, because it would have been a very interesting event, whatever you had in mind. Unfortunately I had to take off to London right away and I couldn’t delay. I wondered whether or not, in fact, someone was trying to get me to not go to London with the great carrot of the PC folders. But anyway, you know what I want.
MR. JOEY: We’ve been over that one. Anyhow, people come to sign various agreements, da, da, da. Okay.
Man important thing, you know, as Mike said, for example, the undated ersignations of these Boards members. What does the Board — you’ve got people who are on the Board. What do they know
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4538
about what’s going on? They’re the board members, They’re the secular in charges; right? Well, they say the Board is not ecclesiastic. So are they trying to say that the PIs are ecclesiastic activities?
MR. JOEY: I don’t know. I think I got the rest.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Hold on. Good. Now, tell me about what else you had to tell me about. Or should we go?
MR. JOEY: Why don’t we — what time do you have to leave?
MR. ARMSTRONG: I don’t have to leave — well, I’m going to have to call my wife at some point if I’m not able to get back. I don’t know how far you’re driving or if you have this thing set up or anything about it.
MR. JOEY: Yeah, we can go see the girl for a awhile, so why don’t we do that.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that’s a good idea. And then?
MR. JOEY: That’s it.
MR. ARMSTRONG: That’s a good plan.
MR. JOEY: She’s at the Sheraton Grand, downtown, so we’ll just zip on down there.
G. ARMSTRONG – X – 4539
MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you trust her?
MR. JOEY: Yeah, I don’t think we should get into real heavy stuff with her. She wants to meet you and to say like — you know —
MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you have a room number for her?
MR. JOEY: Yeah.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Can you give it to me? Because I’ll take my own car.
MR. JOEY: Yeah, Center One.
MR. ARMSTRONG: And where is this?
MR. JOEY: Just follow me.
MR. ARMSTRONG: It’s right downtown on what? Fifth, sixth? In that area?
MR. JOEY: It’s right next to the Bonaventure.
MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
MR. JOEY: So I’ll just get on the freeway.
MR. ARMSTRONG: I have to take a leak. Where can I go? Probably right over there.
MR. JOEY; Yeah. I’ll wait for you.
(End of transcription of video tapes.)