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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,vs.
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants._______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants’ Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
CONTENTS: Testimony of Jesse Prince.1
VOLUME 7
DATE: July 10, 2002. Afternoon Session.
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida.BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge.
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500872
APPEARANCES:
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. LEE FUGATE
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. HOWARD ROSS
Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A.
980 Tyrone Boulevard
St. Petersburg, Florida 33710
Counsel for Robert Minton.873
THE COURT: You may be seated.
All right. Mr. Weinberg, you may continue.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, Mr. Prince, you said earlier today — we got into this conversation — that you didn’t know until it was too late basically, in March of 1987, that RTC had trustees.
That is what you said, right?
A Or the role of the trustees, how that operated corporately. Yes, Mr. Weinberg.
Q And you didn’t know, until the day you were demoted, that David Miscavige was one of those trustees. You didn’t know that, either?
A Again, I didn’t know the role of a trustee, what they did. I didn’t have the — the idea of what they did. Correct, Mr. Weinberg.
Q Well, let me show you a couple of documents that we’ll have the reporter mark — reporter, the clerk.
MR. WEINBERG: This is our next document.
THE CLERK: 229.
MR. WEINBERG: This, your Honor, is 229.
And this one would be 230, right?
THE CLERK: Yes.
MR. WEINBERG: This, your Honor, is 230.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Mr. Prince, this is 229. The thick one is 230.
A Okay. Is this stuff that I keep later?
Q Yes, we can just keep it here for the moment, and then if there is any originals — there is one —
THE COURT: If there are any copies, you can keep them, or give them to Mr. Dandar, or —
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll return these exhibits back to the clerk.
THE COURT: If they’re originals, you need to be sure they get back to the clerk.
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
MR. WEINBERG: Before I forget, let me return these exhibits for some reason I took.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q All right, now if you’ll look at 229, Mr. Prince —
A Is that this one right here?
Q That is the short run, Unanimous Written Consent of the Directors and Trustees of the Religion Technology Center.
A Yes.
Q Do you see that?
A Yes, I do.
Q And you see you executed that document as a
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director?
A Yes. Yes, sir, I see my signature on there.
Q You see the three trustees executed that document as trustees, Lyman Spurlock, David Miscavige, and can you read the last one?
A Mmm, David Miscavige is the last one, isn’t it?
Q I think it is the second one.
A The second one is I think looks like Starkey.
Q David Miscavige is the last one. Do you know who the second one is?
A Norman Starkey. And the first one is Lyman Spurlock, I believe.
Q So certainly at that point in time you must have been aware there were trustees?
A Mr. Weinberg, I’m going to say this and it may sound incredible, but as a director, at least in this corporation, Mr. McShane was actually the secretary. I would often sign things because it was required to be signed.
You know, this isn’t anything that we all signed simultaneously. This could have been given to me and Vicki signs it, Jesse signs it, Warren signs it, send it along to OSA, then they sign it.
Q You were familiar, as director, as you said, the number two guy in RTC, you were familiar with the bylaws of the Religious Technology Center, correct?
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A You know, I wouldn’t say so.
Q Well, can you pick those bylaws up, please?
A Yes, I can.
Q What is the exhibit number on that?
A Mine doesn’t have an exhibit number.
THE COURT: 230.
MR. WEINBERG: 230?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And do you see that if you go to the last page, it is dated June 15, 1982?
A Yes.
Q All right. If you go to —
MR. WEINBERG: In fact, if I can approach the witness it will be easier.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q — Article 6, Section 1 —
A Where am I?
Q Article 6, Section 1.
A That is Article 7, so this must be Article 6 right here. Section 7 — what section number?
Q Article 6, Section 1. Right here.
A All right.
Q See that?
A Yes.
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Q And that is trustees. You see that?
A Uh-huh. Yes.
Q And you see that the bylaws of the organization that you say you were number two in says, and I quote:
“The sole purpose of the board of trustees shall be to elect directors of the corporation. In furtherance of this purpose, the trustees may remove a director who fails to meet the qualifications of a director or who conducts himself in a manner which is contrary to the provisions of Article 1 through 4 of these bylaws and the survival of Scientology. In addition, the trustees shall have the power to change the trustees.”
Isn’t that exactly what happened in March of 1987, that you and Vicki Aznaran were removed by the trustees pursuant to the bylaws of the RTC because you-all had failed to meet the qualifications of a director because you conducted yourself in a manner that was contrary to these bylaws and the survival of Scientology because you had been part of an out-tech operation?
A Is that a question?
THE COURT: That was awfully —
MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
THE COURT: Break that down.
A My signature isn’t on here, by the way, as a director on these bylaws.
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But these bylaws are signed by Steven Marlowe, Laura Marlowe and someone else.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Right, because in 1982 you weren’t a director, you became a director after 1982.
A That is correct.
Q And I assume when you became director, you said you had all this responsibility, you must have — must have familiarized yourself with what the purpose, as set forth in the bylaws and articles of incorporation of the organization that you were part of, was.
A Well, that, in itself, would be an assumption that would have to be ratified by my testimony. And my testimony is, is that I have never been a person that was legal-minded and really understood corporate and bylaws and things like that. I just wasn’t.
THE COURT: Did you ever read this document?
THE WITNESS: I can’t say that I have.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q But you —
A My signature is not on any part of this.
Q You understand now, after having seen this document, seen Title 6, you understand that you were removed in March of 1987 pursuant to the bylaws of RTC by the trustees as a result of your misconduct? You understand
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that now, don’t you?
A No. No.
THE COURT: He already testified why he believes he was removed. It would not be consistent with this.
Obviously, the directors, if they were here, would testify differently that it was pursuant to this.
MR. WEINBERG: The trustees.
THE COURT: The trustees.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Mr. Prince, you can put that down.
A Okay.
Q Now —
THE COURT: I mean, I guess pursuant to your question as to wasn’t this true and wasn’t that true where he said no, that was coming from somewhere.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
THE COURT: So I assume — that would have been what somebody else might have said, but he disagrees with that.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you testified on direct that as soon as — as it became known that you were now going to work against
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Scientology, that you were threatened by Elliot Abelson, the lawyer, is that what you said?
A I said I received a letter threatening to sue me from Mr. Elliot Abelson.
Q And — and you understood from receiving that letter that the problem was that you had signed a release upon your departure from Scientology — from the Sea Org in 1992, among other things promising not to — to work against the Church of Scientology, or something to that effect?
A I would have to see that, if you —
Q Okay.
A — have it here.
MR. WEINBERG: Let me have a couple of things marked, your Honor.
Your Honor, here is 231. It is one exhibit.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q This whole package is 231, Mr. Prince.
A Okay, thank you.
Q Now, do you see Exhibit 231, Mr. Prince?
A I’m looking at it right now, Mr. Weinberg.
MR. WEINBERG: While he’s looking at it, your Honor, I’ll mark as 232 the following document.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q That is 232.
A Okay.
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Q Have you had a chance to look at 231?
A Yes.
Q All right. And is that the correspondence that you remember getting from Mr. Abelson?
A Yes.
Q And that includes a letter that — which is the second page — sent by hand-delivery to you in Minneapolis on July 24, 1998 from Mr. Abelson, along with a copy of the release. And then the first page is a letter of that same date to you in care of Leipold, Donahue & Shipe, do you see that?
A Yes, I do.
Q And is this the full extent of the communications between you and the Church of Scientology, Mr. Abelson, at that time in July of 1998 with regard to whether or not you could or would be a witness?
A Mmm, no. As I worked — I mean — I mean, I had private investigators actually trying to stop me on the street to hand me this letter.
Q I’m just asking you about any other communications with Mr. Abelson.
A With Mr. Abelson? Not that I recall specifically.
Q Then am I correct that you got Mr. Leipold, who you were already working with, I guess, at the time, to file a lawsuit?
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A Correct.
Q And that is Exhibit —
MR. WEINBERG: What did I say? The lawsuit?
MR. DANDAR: 232.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And that is Exhibit 232 in front of you, correct?
A Yes.
Q And that was a lawsuit filed on your behalf in — that was filed — date filed August 6, 1998 in Superior Court in California seeking to declare the release, which is one which is attached to that first exhibit, not valid as it pertained to your testimony. Is that right?
A You know, I’m sorry, Mr. Weinberg, I’m a little tired. But, you know, the question gets long. Then I don’t know what I’m supposed to be answering.
Q The purpose of this was to try to allow you to work in cases against the Church of Scientology?
A No. Not at all.
THE COURT: A dec action normally just to declare the rights of the parties.
MR. WEINBERG: That was my first question. And I tried to make it simpler.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I mean, you were asking the Court to declare that the release did not prohibit you from testifying?
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A If that is what this says, yes.
Q Okay. And this case never — it just lay — you never prosecuted this case. Is that right?
A No, I never pursued it.
Q And the Church of Scientology didn’t — didn’t file any lawsuit against you?
A No.
Q And that release that was attached is the release that you were talking about that you signed in 1992, is that right?
A Under extreme duress, yes.
Q The extreme — did you sign it on the day that you left?
A I signed it on the 31st of October. But for whatever reason, Mr. Rathbun thought it would be more appropriate to make it November. So he wrote “November 1st” here.
But the actual date that I left that I was taken to the airport by the Scientology security official was the 31st of October.
Q Was it late at night that you signed it?
A No. But it was in the evening.
Q All right. Does it make a difference whether it is November 1st or October 31st?
A It makes a difference as far as accuracy is concerned.
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Q And on this same day, you were — you talked to Mr. Rathbun in — in a recorded conversation?
A Yes.
Q And were you under any duress?
A Extreme duress, as is laid out in this complaint.
Q Did he threaten you during the conversation on the 31st?
A I was way past being threatened.
Q That was a simple question. Did he threaten you during the conversation that was recorded on the 31st?
A I don’t know. I would have to listen to it again.
Q Do you remember being threatened?
A No, I do not.
Q When you say duress, what are you talking about?
A Well —
THE COURT: He already talked about it throughout his testimony as to the whole schmear.
MR. WEINBERG: This is the last day when he decided to walk out.
THE COURT: I understand that, Counselor. But he already testified as to how he felt threatened and how he felt coerced and all that and how it came about.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
THE COURT: All this long tenure. But if you
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are specifically asking about right before he signed is —
MR. WEINBERG: That is what I’m asking.
THE COURT: But don’t suggest that is all he’s talking about because he talked about —
MR. WEINBERG: No. No, I’m talking about on the 31st when this was recorded.
A I’ll give you a simple statement. Unless I signed this, I would have been — remained a captive. Unless I did this, I would have remained incarcerated by Scientology.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, the first time that you — in 1987 when you went into the RPF, you actually walked out on your own, didn’t you?
A What do you mean?
Q Well, you have testified about it. You actually left the RPF and went into town, checked into a hotel —
A Escaped. I escaped. It just wasn’t walking. No. I escaped. And some Indians from the Soboba Springs Reservation put me in a truck and drove me to bingo hall so I could call the police. No, I escaped. I ran away from that place.
Q So you didn’t see Mr. Rathbun or anybody like that who paid for a hotel?
A Oh, they caught me on the road walking.
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Q And they took you into town?
A Yeah.
Q So —
A In the back of a truck.
Q They didn’t take you back to the RPF?
A I wasn’t going to go back to the RPF. I made that clear. I told them if they wanted to speak with me or continue any kind of dialogue with me, it would be on my terms and not on their terms and — no longer on their terms.
That if they wanted to talk to me, I would sit still in a place a while.
So they went and paid for a hotel. I went and got a car, drove straight back to the RPF and got Vicki Aznaran out of there. Vicki Aznaran didn’t want to be there, either.
Q And they let her go, too?
A No. They had no choice.
Q What do you mean, they had no choice?
A I came in there with a car, driving up their dirt road so fast. I knew exactly where she was. As soon as I went in there, I grabbed her, put her in that car and we zoomed out the gate.
Q But the first time when you left, Mr. Rathbun picked you up on the road, and instead of taking you back to the RPF, he took you to a hotel in town and paid for a hotel
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room?
A At my demand, yes.
Q Well, if you are a prisoner, what right do you have to demand anything?
A Because I’m in the public now. You see, I’m in the open now. I’m not in Scientology’s closed system where they can do whatever they want to and people can’t see. Now I’m out on the public road with public cars passing
by. And that affords — afforded some protection because it was a PR flap.
For me to be out there, a disgruntled staff member, extremely disgruntled staff member, leaving for my life, my God, I’m walking through the desert, it is 110 degrees, that is the reason why.
I told them, “I’m going straight to the police, straight to the press. I’m sick of you people.”
Q This is in 1987?
A Correct.
Q Then after a week or two or three or whatever it was, you then voluntarily went back to the RPF?
A No.
Q From the public?
A Mmm, Mr. Weiner (sic), you know on direct we covered this quite well, and I explained the whole situation about my wife, you know, how they wanted to split my wife
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and I, I didn’t want to be split with her, I stayed there an extra five years until she came to. You know, I have that same testimony today.
Q One simple question. No one drug you back.
A Correct.
Q Now, you testified that — I think that you were shocked about private investigators and how a private investigator has been running around. I mean, I think —
THE COURT: Shocked? I don’t recall him being shocked.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q How do you recall it?
A Annoyed. Kind of surprised.
Q Now, after you left the Church of Scientology in 1992, you actually became trained and worked in Texas as a private investigator, didn’t you?
You were certified?
A Correct.
Q And the person that trained you was Rick Aznaran, who had years before left the Church of Scientology?
A In 1989, I think — no, it was five years prior to me leaving. So, yes.
Q How long did you work as a private investigator?
A Oh, probably maybe — maybe four months, five months.
Q Now, let’s go to your August 1999 affidavit.
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A Okay.
Q You are familiar with that affidavit, obviously. Right?
A Well, Mr. Weinberg, if we’re going to go through and do the word games with it, I certainly need to have it present in front of me.
MR. DANDAR: I might have it.
THE COURT: Which affidavit is this?
MR. WEINBERG: This is the one that the hearing is about, basically.
THE COURT: Oh.
MR. DANDAR: I take that back. I thought I had it.
MR. WEINBERG: Do you have a copy of it?
THE COURT: Did you say this was the one dated the 1st of May of —
MR. WEINBERG: No. No. When I said the hearing, this is the August 20, 1999 affidavit, the one where the murder allegation was made.
THE COURT: I thought you said about this hearing.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, it is the —
THE COURT: What number is that, Madam Clerk?
Could I have that? I don’t have it up here.
MR. DANDAR: I’ll object. There was no murder
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allegation in the affidavit.
THE COURT: The objection is on the record.
We’ll deal with — the affidavit says whatever it says.
MR. DANDAR: It says what it says.
THE COURT: It says what it says.
MR. DANDAR: I just can’t find my copy.
THE COURT: This one, is this 108 or something like that?
MR. DANDAR: It is very possible.
THE COURT: Madam Clerk, look for 108, see what that is.
THE CLERK: Defense 108 or —
THE COURT: Oh, I don’t know.
MR. FUGATE: It is not 108, Judge.
THE COURT: No, that is not it.
MR. WEINBERG: Judge, I have one that I don’t think have any highlights on it — well, one highlight, nothing much.
THE COURT: That is all right, I don’t mind the highlights.
MR. WEINBERG: I can’t even find the one that did have highlights.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you have one, Mr. Prince?
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A No, I do not.
Q Okay, I have another one.
THE COURT: This is in evidence or else it is attached to the response.
MR. DANDAR: And we would like it to be considered as evidence in this hearing.
THE COURT: Okay. Well, it needs to then be admitted — it hasn’t been admitted. Do you want to admit it as the defense next exhibit?
MR. DANDAR: That is fine.
MR. WEINBERG: How about plaintiff’s next exhibit?
MR. DANDAR: Or it could be a joint exhibit.
MR. WEINBERG: Frankly —
THE COURT: Make it your exhibit, Mr. Dandar.
MR. DANDAR: As well as the April 2002 exhibit of Mr. Prince which is also filed.
MR. WEINBERG: I am not to that one yet. Why don’t we start with this one?
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: I think — are these the exhibits to it?
THE COURT: I don’t know that —
MR. WEINBERG: Yours don’t have it but it is just —
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MR. DANDAR: Judge, I actually —
THE COURT: I don’t know what that is. Was it attached to his affidavit?
MR. WEINBERG: Apparently so.
THE COURT: Let me see it.
MR. DANDAR: It is Plaintiff’s Exhibit 126.
Yes, Plaintiff’s Exhibit 126.
THE COURT: Do you remember, Mr. Dandar, whether there were any attachments to his? I honestly don’t remember attachments, at least I wasn’t given — in the copy I was given. It doesn’t mean there weren’t some.
MR. DANDAR: My copy with me today has nothing attached to it. But —
THE COURT: Well, let’s just look, because if there are no attachments to it, then you need not —
MR. WEINBERG: This wouldn’t be something we want in, anyway. These are not attachments. But I think we’ll probably find that he refers to some in here somewhere.
(A discussion was held off the record.)
MR. WEINBERG: Judge, why don’t we do this. I marked one without the attachments. Why don’t we just mark it without the attachments?
THE COURT: Okay.
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MR. WEINBERG: Then we won’t have —
THE COURT: That will be plaintiff’s next in order.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
THE COURT: There will be no attachments. If you later find out there are attachments with it —
MR. WEINBERG: He already put into evidence the — with the motions —
MR. DANDAR: It is already in as 126 of the plaintiff.
THE COURT: 126?
MR. DANDAR: Yes.
THE COURT: It is already in?
MR. DANDAR: Yes.
THE COURT: Then we don’t need it in again, Counsel. Number 126.
MR. WEINBERG: But it doesn’t have attachments.
THE COURT: I’ll just use this one and give it back to you when we’re done. Whoops, now I have two of them.
MR. WEINBERG: I know, because I had given you one with attachments and one without.
THE COURT: I’ll use them. And when I’m done, I’ll give them both back to you.
THE WITNESS: Mr. Weinberg, I would like a
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copy, as well.
THE COURT: Here. Take mine, the extra.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Now, Mr. Prince, did I give you Pages 1 through 18?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q First of all, take a look at that affidavit. And go to the last page. And that is an affidavit that you executed on August 20, 1999, is that right?
A Correct.
Q And you executed it in Mr. Dandar’s office?
A Correct.
Q Now, you can put the affidavit down. I have some questions first.
A Okay.
Q You had, as of August 20, 1999, no personal knowledge as to what occurred in 1995 with regard to Lisa McPherson at the Ft. Harrison Hotel. Correct?
A Correct.
Q You had — at that time you’d been out of Scientology, out of a — sorry, by that time you’d been out of an executive position at Scientology for — since 1987?
A Correct.
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Q You were not at the Ft. Harrison Hotel in 1995.
Correct?
A Correct.
Q You never spoke to anybody that was with Lisa McPherson while she was at the hotel in 1995. Correct?
A Well, let me think about that.
Q As of the time you executed your affidavit?
A Oh, not that I recall.
Q Okay. You had — at the time that you executed your affidavit in August of 1999, you had no knowledge — no personal knowledge as to what David Miscavige was doing or where he was from November 18, 1995 through December 5, 1995. Correct?
A Yes.
THE COURT: Yes, that is true?
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is true.
THE COURT: Okay. Now we are in important areas so I want the record to be clear on things like that.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, yet you opined in your affidavit —
MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me one second. (Short pause.)
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q If you go to Page 17.
A Okay.
Q You opined in your affidavit, in Paragraph 44, that:
“Lisa McPherson was held against her will in isolation. And when she did not respond to Scientology technical handling, Flag, on orders from David Miscavige, Ray Mithoff and Marty Rathbun, sat mute and watched her die after she no longer had the strength to fight for her freedom. Her death was no accident. It was a chosen option to minimize a public relations flap.”
That is what you said, correct?
A Correct.
Q At the time you said that, you did not have a shred — you did not have a piece of evidence indicating — indicating that in November and December of 1995 that either Mr. Mithoff or Mr. Rathbun or Mr. Miscavige had done one thing with regard to Lisa McPherson. Correct?
A Mmm, correct. I — you labeled this as my opinion, I think. You said I opined about these and this is what I did.
Q Go to Paragraph 34 — I mean Paragraph 43. I’m sorry, Page 17, same page. Paragraph 43, you say:
“Yet from the available records, it is apparent to me that these three individuals, Mithoff, Rathbun and Miscavige, had no
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option other than to permit her to die in isolation, rather than to take her to the hospital for emergency medical treatment and risk embarrassing questions from the attending physician, press and authorities, with likely claims of imprisonment and abuse being made by Lisa McPherson upon her recovery.”
You said that. Right?
A Correct.
Q And — but when you said that, you didn’t have a shred of evidence that indicated that Mr. Mithoff, Mr. Rathbun or Mr. Miscavige made a decision to let her die.
Correct?
A This was my opinion, based on experience.
Q You didn’t have any evidence, did you?
A I had no physical evidence, no.
THE COURT: Could I ask him a question here?
MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
THE COURT: I hate to interrupt. At that time, at the time you wrote this, had the doctors, more particularly, Dr. — I can’t even think of his name now.
MR. DANDAR: Spitz.
THE COURT: — Spitz, had he been deposed yet?
Do you know, Mr. Prince?
THE WITNESS: I do not recall, your Honor.
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THE COURT: In other words, this was before you had the medical testimony?
THE WITNESS: Mmm, I wouldn’t say that, either, no. I — I’m not sure about that, either. I know I have read medical testimony from Mr. Dandar’s experts concerning what —
THE COURT: Do you know whether you had knowledge of what that testimony — I mean, I have to presume you and Mr. Dandar, as his consultant, discussed what he knew, what you knew.
THE WITNESS: Sure.
THE COURT: But do you know whether or not you knew about the medical doctors before you wrote your affidavit, or not?
THE WITNESS: I — as I sit here today, your Honor, I don’t know.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q But you did know that the Church of Scientology had been charged criminally at this point. Right?
A Yes.
Q You were aware of what the medical examiner had said, correct? The autopsy report, all of the controversy? I mean, you were aware of all of that?
A Yes.
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Q Now, you knew that by making an allegation like you did in your affidavit in August of 1999, that David Miscavige, the leader of the Church of Scientology, was part of an intentional decision to allow a fellow Scientologist who was on a religious program, introspection rundown, to die. You knew that making an allegation like that would — would be — would bring very negative press and very negative reactions from the Church. Correct?
A You know, Mr. Weinberg, I don’t know which part of that diatribe to respond to.
THE COURT: It wasn’t a diatribe. He said did you know that this would bring very negative reactions from the Church?
THE WITNESS: I mean, that was not in my awareness. That was not part of my thought process when I executed this document here. My thought process, in executing this document, is after reviewing the preclear folders, reviewing the caretaker notes, reviewing what other information that was available, which I had studied for months — you see, you say she was on the introspection rundown, yet your client cannot produce one sheet of paper —
THE COURT: See, you are well, well past —
THE WITNESS: Okay.
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THE COURT: This question is real simple. His question was did you know, when you executed this affidavit, that this would cause negative reaction — I can’t remember what word you used — negative reaction from the Church?
THE WITNESS: Right. That was not in my conscious — consciousness to create that, you know, or — or — I mean I don’t think this ever appeared in the newspaper or — or anything like that. I mean, as far as public relations is concerned, I think this is a document that is held within this courtroom.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q No. It just appeared in a lawsuit that that document was the basis for that accused the Church of Scientology, specifically its leader, David Miscavige, of murder. It appeared in that. Right?
A I prepared this — this affidavit for this case.
Q Right. And that affidavit was the — was the principal piece of evidence that was used to seek the fifth amended complaint that made it very clear that there was a murder allegation against David Miscavige, among others. Correct?
A You know, you’re asking me to do — or to comment upon work that was actually Mr. Dandar’s work. Mr. Dandar
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simply asked me, “What do you think happened with Lisa McPherson? Based on everything that you have read, what do you think happened to her?” Then we went, “Well, why do you think it happened to her? Well, can you show me? Can you tell me?”
And after we went through that process, I went over this many times because he was like, “Are you sure? Are you sure?” I said, “Look, this is the way it works here. I was here. I know how it works. I have seen this in operation.” You know, I’m not —
THE COURT: Mr. Prince, you are going on and on. And the long and short of it is you testified on direct examination, in response to questions either from your lawyer — or I should not say your lawyer, either from the person to whom you consult with or from me, that you’d never seen an end cycle ordered by David Miscavige —
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: — other than on a terminally ill person.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: So the long and short of it is you really didn’t have any experience for these particular serious allegations, did you?
902
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did, your Honor. And I think with the first part of my testimony, when you see the pattern of the conduct of this organization in that it is not below them to do something illegal, it is not below them to put themselves before an individual, it is —
THE COURT: Well, then it was just speculative on your part. This is one of a number of possibilities that could have happened?
THE WITNESS: Right. Exactly.
THE COURT: This just happened to be the only one you mentioned?
THE WITNESS: Well, this is the only one I believe did happen.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Okay?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You knew — at the time you executed this affidavit that was the basis for the fifth amended complaint, you knew that there was no policy, no written policy, in the Church of Scientology with regard to killing someone who was on an introspection rundown. You knew that, didn’t you?
A Basically — no, there is no policy to kill people. There is nothing in the policy to kill people that
903
I know of.
Q Okay. And you have said many, many times over the course of this litigation if it isn’t written, it isn’t so. Correct?
That it is — it is all in writing, it is all written down, as far as Scientology policy. Correct?
A As far as Scientology policy is concerned, that is something that they say.
Q All right. Now, you had been — you had one experience with the introspection rundown where you actually were on an introspection rundown watching someone. That is Teresita. Correct?
A Correct.
Q And Ms. Brooks was on that same introspection rundown. Right?
A For a short period of time, yes.
Q And in that — and that went over the course of a month or so?
A A couple months.
Q A couple of months?
A Yes.
Q And people were with Teresita around the clock?
A Primarily myself was with her around the clock. But, you know, her being a young woman, sometimes she would need help going to the bathroom or, you know, cleaning herself up. That is when the girls would come, like Stacy
904
and another girl would help.
Q And part of 0 and 00 of the introspection rundown is the isolation part, right, which is what this watch was, and also getting food and — and nutrition so you can start auditing, try to get out of the psychotic state.
Correct?
A Almost correct. But the auditing pretty much happens immediately after the person has had a period of time asleep, such as eight hours, the auditing is immediately started.
Q If someone is still psychotic, in other words, out of their mind, not — not in present time, they can’t get audited, can they?
A Well, you know — no. You can audit an unconscious person. There are auditing processes where you can actually audit an unconscious person.
Q You didn’t receive an order to let Teresita die, did you?
A No. I did not.
Q No one received an order to let Teresita die?
A No.
Q Teresita was a staff member —
A Correct.
Q — who had a psychotic break, apparently.
Correct?
A You know —
905
Q Can you just answer that question?
A Okay, I am going to answer. But, you know, you talk about psychotic break. And again, you know, what are we talking about here?
THE COURT: We’re talking about somebody that barks like a dog, which is what you said she did.
That is somebody that had a psychotic break.
THE WITNESS: Yes. Okay. Am I qualified to do a medical diagnosis? I don’t think so.
THE COURT: No, but we are all qualified in this room to know that somebody that is barking like a dog had something go wrong. And it is usually psychotic. Fair enough?
THE WITNESS: Is it temporary? Does it go on for weeks? Does it just happen for an hour? I mean, what are we talking about?
THE COURT: Let him ask his question and let him answer and we’ll all make our assumptions when it is over.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q All right. What I’m talking about, when you were with her most of the time, you saw to it that she ate and that she drank. Correct?
A Correct.
Q And you — I think you have said in testimony,
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whether it is — I think it was your affidavit, this affidavit that we’re looking at, 126, that at one point you thought that she was — was going to die, I think you said. Correct?
A Correct.
Q Because you were concerned that she wasn’t getting enough to drink or enough to eat?
A No. That is not why I thought she was going to die. I thought she was going to die because she couldn’t sleep.
Q And you —
THE COURT: Maybe you can show me where you are, because this is a long affidavit. I don’t remember where this part of it was.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, I’ll show you. It is Page 13.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: Paragraph 31.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Read that out loud, Mr. Prince. It is one sentence.
A I’m sorry. What is it?
Q Page 13, Paragraph 31.
A Uh-huh.
Q Can you read that out loud?
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A “If I had not forcibly made her drink water, I am positive that, based upon my own observation, she would have died.”
Q So you were concerned that she was going to die if you didn’t force her or make her drink water. That is what you said under oath in this August 1999 affidavit. Correct?
A Yes, Mr. Weinberg. But if you go to Number 29 of the same affidavit, I also mention the fact that I was afraid she was going to die because she could not sleep.
Q Okay.
THE COURT: He also said she had a — you also said she had a psychotic break, didn’t you?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I did.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q All right. But the point is, Mr. Prince, is that you took it upon yourself to help her get through this. Correct?
A Yes.
Q So did Stacy Brooks?
A For a short time.
Q So did a number of other people that were there. Correct?
A Yes.
Q And you got an award for it?
A No, I didn’t.
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Q You got recognized for it?
A No, I didn’t.
Q You didn’t?
A Come on.
MR. WEINBERG: Could I just approach the witness, your Honor, while I get copies of this?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I show you —
MR. WEINBERG: We’ll mark it —
THE COURT: I think it has already been marked because when Stacy Brooks was on the stand —
MR. WEINBERG: You are right, it has been marked, and we’ll figure out what the exhibit number is.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q “August 31, 1988. Commendable. The following people are acknowledged for their assistance on handling a cycle that was above and beyond their duties. Their actions helped in the standard application of Scientology technology on the introspection rundown that made a being sane. Highly commended: Jesse Prince.” Do you see that?
A Where? Suzie Watson? I had forgotten about her. The
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rest of them people are security guards. Well, you know, this is possible. I hadn’t remembered it.
Q Well, you were pretty happy, were you not, that you were successful in your endeavors to help Teresita?
A You know, I was happy that she survived and made it home okay. I was happy about that. Yes.
Q And you’re aware that she’s alive today and is still a Scientologist?
A I have no information about that.
Q She went home? She was allowed to go home after the introspection rundown was concluded?
A Yes. She signed her release, similar to this thing I signed, and she —
Q No one told you to keep her there to avoid a public relations flap?
A After she was well?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q No?
A No.
Q And during this process, she hit you. Correct?
A Yes.
Q She ran out several times, ran out into the country?
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A Right.
Q I mean, one could say, if they didn’t know, that she was crazy, that she was trying to escape, correct, when she ran out?
A You could surmise that. I don’t know. She was running in the wrong direction to escape because where we were at, we were on a — where this place is, where we had her, the mountains are behind there. And she ran up that way. Which, unless you are a skilled mountain climber, you are not going to go very far.
Q And what you did, you ran after her, didn’t you?
A Yes.
Q And you brought her back?
A No. Actually I couldn’t catch her because she ran so fast. Sometimes people have superhuman strength. And then she climbed so high. And she was a lightweight person. And when I tried to reach for her, I couldn’t reach where she was. So I had to literally sit and wait for her to decide to come down.
Q Then you brought her back?
A No. I walked behind her. She brought herself back.
THE COURT: Mr. Prince, you brought her back, she came back, you followed her back —
THE WITNESS: She came back.
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THE COURT: The deal was you weren’t going to let her, in that state, go anywhere except stay there and continue to be handled. Right?
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you cannot speak for what all Scientologists — other Scientologists would follow as far as policy, can you?
A No, I cannot.
Q Because — because of the concept in Scientology that what is true for you is true. Correct?
A Well, not — not wholly because also it depends on how much you have been trained, how much policy you know, you know. You can’t be expected to understand something you don’t know.
Q We’ve talked about this in your depositions before. The point is, is that it is a policy of Scientology that Scientologists can decide on their own what — whether to ignore policy or not — to ignore a particular policy or not?
A No. That is not true.
Q Then what did you mean when you testified —
A Not ignore a policy. You know, I mean, how could you ignore the policy to lock the door when all of the staff
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walk out? You know, you’re going to get in trouble. That doesn’t make sense. You don’t ignore the policy. Either you understand it and you accept it, or you don’t.
Q So you don’t have to accept it if you don’t want to, that is a policy — that is what is true for you is true for you?
A No. No, no. Maybe with tech, you know, a belief — but policy that lays out the fundamental actions of the organization? No.
Q You don’t have any knowledge of what the staff members that were staying with Lisa McPherson — what policies
they were or were not following and what they believed about those policies? You are not in a position to opine about that, are you?
A What policies — policy are you referring to?
Q Whatever policies they were advised as to or practicing when they were staying with Lisa McPherson.
A You know, that is kind of ambiguous. If you have got a policy, I could tell you whether or not I think they’re aware of it.
Q All right.
Now, do you remember that in or about August or September — we’ll pull the exact affidavit now — in 2001 you executed an affidavit that was the basis of a motion for severe sanctions against the Church, and as a
result you withdrew as an expert in the case?913
THE COURT: Are we done with this affidavit?
MR. WEINBERG: Oh, yes.
THE COURT: All right, I’m going to let you have that back. Mr. Prince, if you want to, you can give that back.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: I believe this is in evidence, too, isn’t it?
MR. WEINBERG: I think it is. It is but — do we have copies of the affidavit? I think we have copies.
THE COURT: Okay. Good. I just went ahead — I’m just having the evidence filed as I read through it.
MR. WEINBERG: You know what —
THE COURT: It is too massive.
MR. WEINBERG: — this one I’m not positive about, whether it is in evidence or not.
THE COURT: I don’t know, either. Madam Clerk, how do you know what is in evidence?
MR. WEINBERG: I should know this and, frankly, I apologize.
THE COURT: Is there any way you can tell us whether an affidavit of Jesse Prince dated September of 2001 is in evidence?
914
THE CLERK: Yes, Judge, I can check. Is it plaintiff’s or defendant’s?
THE COURT: I can’t tell you if it is plaintiff’s or defendant’s. These come in under strange hands.
MR. DANDAR: I don’t believe the plaintiff used this at this hearing.
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll mark it. We’ll mark as the next exhibit, the September of 2001 affidavit of Mr. Prince.
THE COURT: What number is that?
THE CLERK: 233.
MR. WEINBERG: 233.
THE COURT: And if you find it is in evidence, you’ll let us know and we’ll take that one out. We’ll have just a mound of evidence.
MR. WEINBERG: It is obviously part of a court record.
THE COURT: Yes. And I believe it has been referred to several times. But I’m not sure it has ever been introduced.
MR. DANDAR: 233?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
THE COURT: So it will be received.
MR. WEINBERG: Then — where is the motion? Do
915
you have the motion? I might as well do the whole package here. 234 would be the motion for severe sanctions.
THE COURT: I don’t know why I would need the motion to be introduced. But —
MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think there was something I wanted to refer to and, frankly, I don’t know what it was. I’ll just mark it anyway. And that would be 234.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, is that an affidavit that you executed, Mr. Prince?
A Yes, it is, Mr. Weinberg.
Q And it was done — who wrote this affidavit?
A I did.
Q Did you get any help writing this affidavit?
A Mmm, maybe somebody, you know, did margins for me or, you know, word —
Q I mean, somebody drafted it for you? Nobody drafted it for you? You did all that?
A Again, I don’t want to be coy when answering the question. Sometimes Mr. Dandar or some attorney will suggest information based on conversations that we had and — quite normally.
And I think Mr. Dandar can attest to this, that I
916
normally start from the beginning and type my own, do my own work.
Q Now, if you go to Paragraph 22 and 23 of his affidavit, on Page 5 —
A Yes?
Q — you swore in the affidavit that — that — that:
“As a result of my arrest and criminal prosecution, I was extremely upset, embarrassed and humiliated and could see in here that my fiancee and her two minor children were traumatized by this experience.”
Then you went on in 23 to say that: “Further, I had advised Ken Dandar, counsel for the estate of Lisa McPherson, that I must withdraw as the estate’s expert in the above-captioned cause as a result of my arrest and prosecution and serious concern of further and more intense fair game by Scientology and its operatives.” Then you go on. Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q So the purpose of this affidavit was to say you were not going to be an expert anymore in this case because you were scared of Scientology. That is essentially what you said, right?
A No. I think that is a mis-characterization of what it says here.
917
Q How would you characterize it?
A I was concerned for my family. You see, I had no problem with weathering the storm with Scientology personally.
But this is beyond personal — I think I explained this in my testimony yesterday. Innocent people are involved here. It just wasn’t worth it to me. And I couldn’t hire an attorney. I just lost my job. You know, I don’t want to do that.
THE COURT: He said, “Not only to myself but my fiancee and her two children, who are all very dear to me.” That is all the same section.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did it concern you, for the previous four years when you were threatening the Church, picketing in front of their buildings, saying obscene things about David Miscavige, did it — did it — did it concern you then about Scientology?
A Mmm, what it — it concerned me the moment that I found out that this operation had been run on me and drugs put on my back porch. I mean, it just went to a whole new level at that point. This is at my home. This is where I
live. People coming in, putting seed around, you know, commiserating with police, telling them I’m a drug dealer, cocaine dealer.I have children. My fiancee gets her children
918
taken away from her. It escalated to a new level, Mr. Weinberg.
Q But the affidavit is executed in September of 2001. You had been acquitted in the spring, hadn’t you?
A Yes. Then didn’t —
Q Not acquitted. There had been a hung jury and the prosecutor decided not to pursue it. That was in the spring, wasn’t it?
A Didn’t Mr. Rinder quote, in the St. Pete Times, “We’ll get him next time.” Okay? He was quoted, “We’ll get him next time.” I don’t want any more next times.
Q You continued to be an expert and consultant for Mr. Dandar up until — after the hung jury in the spring, up until September of 2001 when Mr. Minton said he wasn’t going to fund the case anymore. Is that what happened?
A No. Disrelated items.
Q It just happened to be coincidentally at the same time?
A If you characterize it that way. Again, like I say, as we’ve gone over, my regular job at the trust of helping people and doing things was over. We were in the process of leaving town. Everything Scientology wanted to accomplish had been accomplished. The trust was ruined.
You know, we were done. It was over. People were going home.
919
Q So —
A That wasn’t good enough.
Q Actually, you wouldn’t need to work on the case anymore because the trust was over. Right?
A No, you know, I wouldn’t draw that conclusion, Mr. Weinberg. I’m saying my family, right where I live, were threatened. You know, even today you knock on the door, if we get an unexpected visitor, people in my house jump out of their skin. What the hell, because that is exactly how the DEA came in my house, running around with fully automatic weapons in front of my children, because a Scientology private investigator told him I’m selling marijuana, cocaine, selling stolen auto parts; lying, in other words.
And this happened. Okay? I think I had a reason to be concerned.
Q Didn’t Mr. Minton ask you to withdraw from being an expert in the case?
A Never.
Q Did Ms. Brooks ask you to withdraw from the case?
A Yes, she did.
Q Did Ms. Brooks tell you that was Mr. Minton’s desire that you not be an expert anymore?
A No, she did not.
Q Did Ms. Brooks tell you why it was her desire you not be an expert in the case anymore?
920
A Yes, she did.
Q She said that had to do with the Lisa McPherson Trust, the reason?
A No, she said that Scientology had successfully inextricably mixed the work we were doing at the trust with this case, and irrespective of the lawyers and the arguments that they made, you know, it was like they wanted that, too.
Because of this, all of that discovery goes on with Mr. Minton, the trust is virtually raided, you know. Those kinds of reasons.
She said, “Look, if this case didn’t exist, none of this would be happening. We could still be doing this work. But because this has happened, it’s putting everyone in a horrible position. It ruined the company.”
Q Is there a particular reason why you didn’t put in your affidavit what Ms. Brooks had asked you to do, to withdraw?
A Yes, because it is irrelevant. It is my decision.
I spoke on this yesterday, Mr. Weinberg. I said, you know, Stacy wanted this to be done.
I spoke to Bob. And it is like, “Jesse, Stacy is upset because of discovery and things that are going on,” yik-yik-yik. And, “You know, if you have to work with Ken, it’s up to you if there is something that is needed to be done.” He didn’t care.
921
Q Did you tell Mr. Dandar that Ms. Brooks had told you — asked you to withdraw as an expert?
A I think Ms. Brooks may have called him herself because she was quite panicked.
Q Did you send a copy of the motion — a draft — a copy of the draft of the motion for severe sanctions to Mr. Minton before it was ever filed? You?
A I don’t think so.
Q Well, you did make it a practice to E-Mail or send or give to Mr. Minton copies of draft pleadings. You made that a practice, didn’t you?
A No. Come on.
Q In the case?
A Uh-uh.
Q Never did that, did you?
A No. And, you know, I don’t draft pleadings. Again, I’m not the lawyer.
MR. WEINBERG: The next exhibit. Your Honor, this is 235.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you see 235, Mr. Prince?
A Yes, I do.
Q This is a copy of an E-Mail which you sent to whom on 9/20/01?
922
A Okay. Okay.
Q You sent this to Mr. Minton, didn’t you?
A Apparently, I did.
Q And you say here —
MR. WEINBERG: We move this into evidence, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And this is an E-Mail where you say —
THE COURT: Can you show me how we know it went to Mr. Minton? I can’t read this stuff well enough to know.
MR. WEINBERG: I think maybe Mr. Prince can explain that better than me.
THE COURT: What is it at the top that shows this went to Mr. Minton?
THE WITNESS: There is nothing that says this went to Mr. Minton on this document.
THE COURT: Well, you just remember sending it to Mr. Minton?
THE WITNESS: Well, I’m assuming. You know, I’m not here saying I have never sent anything to Mr. Minton about anything.
THE COURT: Here, maybe this is it, I don’t know, this is encrypted something at the back.
923
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
THE WITNESS: As far as I know, this was an encrypted message on my computer.
MR. WEINBERG: This is where you see it at the back.
THE COURT: I think I found it already.
MR. WEINBERG: Right here, “To: Bob Minton, From: Jesse Prince. Received.”
THE COURT: How do we know — how do we know this is — I mean, I don’t care, but how do we know that this is the same thing?
THE WITNESS: Exactly. Here we have a bunch of characters, and now attached to it with — you know, when you get on the Internet, it clearly says from who to who on the message. It doesn’t look like this. It is not in this format.
It is not like that.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Well, look at — look at this page here.
MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I don’t know how to indicate it.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Look at that page. That is an E-Mail you sent to Mr. Minton. Correct?
924
A Correct.
Q On September 20, 2001?
A Correct.
Q 9:41:07?
A Yes, I guess so.
Q Something like that?
A Yeah.
Q This is obviously an encrypted message. Correct?
A Correct.
Q You each had that program so you could communicate with one another in an encrypted fashion?
A Correct.
Q Then you had — what do you call it — decrypted, what is it, a code or something?
A Yes.
Q Then you are able to, on the other end, decode it, right?
A Correct.
Q All right. Now, the decoding is what the first part of this exhibit is?
A The what?
Q The decrypting, decoding, whatever it is called where it says: “Here is the motion Ken will file in the next day or two. And this is not the final form as he is doing more work on it today. I’ll make sure you have a copy
925
of the final draft.”
A Okay.
Q You did that, didn’t you?
A I did what now?
Q You sent to Mr. Minton that message in encrypted form with a draft of this motion for severe sanctions?
A You know, I’m going to hold off on saying that happened because, you know, here is this message, it is encrypted —
THE COURT: Well, you sent this to somebody, you’ll agree?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I sent it to somebody.
THE COURT: It could have been Mr. Minton?
THE WITNESS: It could have been Mr. Minton.
It could have been Mrs. Brooks. It could —
THE COURT: You wouldn’t be apt to send it to anybody else, right?
THE WITNESS: Sometimes I would check things via Mr. Leipold just to get his opinion on it, another attorney I work with.
THE COURT: I think I know what Mr. Weinberg was saying. If you look over on this — this what we’ll call the encrypted one, the date — or the time is 9:41:01 on September 20, 2001.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
926
THE COURT: If you look at the one we can read, it says 9:40:22.
THE WITNESS: You show me where you are —
THE COURT: Yes, sir. Up here. See here? 9/20/01. 9:40:22. See that?
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: It looks like that is — that went out — now look over here. This encrypted, see, it says: “Date, September, 20, ’01, 9:41:01.” So it looks like it may have — it goes out once like this —
MR. DANDAR: That confirms it is not the same thing.
MR. WEINBERG: You know, I move this into evidence and we’ll get an authenticating affidavit from Mr. Minton saying that this is a document —
THE COURT: All right —
MR. WEINBERG: — that he received and he produced to us.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: And Mr. Prince didn’t — didn’t send it to Mr. Minton. What he basically is saying, he’s not sure. And I can’t tell, but it looks like there is some correlation between these two things. I don’t — I don’t think I’m smart enough or if you
927
are smart enough to prove it to me, but that will be enough — and you don’t deny that, right, it could have gone to Mr. Minton?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. WEINBERG: I move it into evidence, your Honor.
THE COURT: And I’m going to receive it because it was clearly something from Mr. Prince. And you just don’t know for sure who it went to, is that it?
THE WITNESS: Correct, your Honor.
THE COURT: What number is it again?
THE CLERK: 235.
THE COURT: 234?
MR. DANDAR: 235.
THE COURT: 235. Thank you.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, why would you be — assuming that this did go to Mr. Minton, why would you be sending Mr. Minton a draft of a motion for severe sanctions that was going to be filed by Ken Dandar in a couple days, in September of 2001, when you say that you had withdrawn from the case?
A Well, I’ll give you the — the answer I could think of about this — Mmm — this affidavit that you showed me earlier, this one here from September of 2001, I think it
928
is — yeah, where I talk about —
THE COURT: I’m sorry, I hate to do this. Is this the affidavit, or is this the motion?
MR. WEINBERG: This is the motion.
THE COURT: Okay. The affidavit isn’t here, unless that is what this is.
MR. WEINBERG: No. No. No. This — this — if you look at the note at the front, “Here is the motion Ken will file in the next day or so.”
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: The affidavit, you know, had already been done, apparently.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. DANDAR: This affidavit is dated the next day.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: Anyway, this is the motion.
THE COURT: So your question was — I’m sorry — why would you send the motion —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q What was the reason — assuming you sent this draft to Mr. Minton, what was the reason you would have been sending to Mr. Minton, in September of 2001, an advance draft of a motion that was being filed for severe sanctions in the Lisa McPherson case?
929
A Because as I recall, he was extremely upset with me. He was extremely upset with Ken Dandar because of this affidavit here. You know, we’re busy going along here —
Q The affidavit wasn’t done — Mr. Dandar just pointed it out — until after this E-Mail went out?
A I’m just trying to give you what I remember so you can take it apart in a minute, if you just let me get it out.
Q All right. Go ahead.
A What I recall about this is Mr. Minton was extremely upset about this affidavit because I had gone through a whole criminal trial where I had not taken the stand and — nor — and I had not admitted guilt or — you know, assumed innocence. In other words, I sat through the trial and they had to no prosecute — or whatever, a hung jury.
So from my mouth, I had never said that I had used drugs with the private investigator and, you know, running around with this detective and whatever and whatever.
Now, from my own mouth, he felt it defeated the purpose of having a trial if you are just going to run around and do that. Again, you know, I’m not a lawyer. I don’t know. I want them to know and do it.
But I do know that Ken was extremely upset over the fact that I wasn’t going to be his expert anymore, that
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I wouldn’t be able to sit there and help him, as I had done, on the case. I’d worked on it for years. So this was very upsetting to him on a personal level when I told him, “Look, Ken –” and this is before — I told him, “Look, I can’t do this anymore. I can’t protect myself. I can’t protect my family. It seems the Court is letting Scientology do whatever they want to, running roughshod in here. All this crap is going on. There is no relief. I’m ready to leave this town. It is not personal against you, Mr. Dandar, that I think you know the reason why I can’t support you, but I can’t support you and protect my family, as well.”
Q Mr. Minton had told you that he wasn’t going to fund the case anymore at this time. Correct? You knew that?
A You know, I don’t understand how I can be saying one thing and then you just say something else.
THE COURT: That is a question.
THE WITNESS: No, that — no, that is not true, Mr. — Mr. Weiner — Weinberg.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So you didn’t know that Mr. Minton had told Mr. Dandar, as of August of 2001, that there wasn’t going to be any more funds? You didn’t know that?
A You know, the last time we talked about this — I mean, Ken got, what, $500,000 in 2000 that was supposed to
931
take him to the end of the case. I wasn’t thinking about Mr. Dandar’s money. Mr. Dandar’s money and how he was operating this case financially was never — never has been any of my concern. There’s nothing I can do about it one way or the other.
Q Now, did you talk to Mr. Merrett about withdrawing from the case?
A Mr. Merrett spoke to me on behalf of Stacy Brooks. She wanted him to explain to me why it would be beneficial for the Lisa McPherson Trust and the people that we are trying to help if I withdrew from the case.
Q So that didn’t have anything to do with threats to your family or anything like that? That has to do with Mr. Minton’s request that you get out of the case because of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A You know, I testified twice that Mr. Minton never said that. So I don’t know why you keep bringing it up.
Q Ms. Brooks then?
A Yes. Thank you. Get it right. That is why we’re here.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Prince.
THE WITNESS: I’m sorry. I’m a little grouchy. I’m tired.
THE COURT: I understand. We all get grouchy. If you wait for another hour, I’ll get grouchy.
932
MR. WEINBERG: I have that in mind.
THE COURT: I get grouchy a little after 12 and 4 o’clock just about every day.
THE WITNESS: I know that 4 o’clock is the witching hour.
THE COURT: It’s a very bad hour for all of us.
MR. WEINBERG: I was going to say something but I won’t.
THE COURT: It is best you not.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q All right. Well, let me show you what has already been marked as an exhibit, Exhibit 49. I have got a copy, so — it is that E-Mail.
THE COURT: The E-Mail? Okay. I thought I might see this E-Mail about now.
THE WITNESS: Everybody knows but me.
THE COURT: This has already been introduced into evidence.
MR. WEINBERG: This is 49.
THE COURT: And they testified about it.
MR. WEINBERG: Defense 49.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, this is an E-Mail that has been identified by Mr. Merrett, among others, that he sent to Mr. Dandar on August 24, 2001, which is before you executed your
933
affidavit, which says:
“Ken, the short version of what’s going on is this. The well is dry as far as money goes. Jesse is going to withdraw as an expert witness. Bob feels that the case is way out of control and is focused 100 percent on him and specifically on trying to put him in jail. He wants Dell to settle the case or otherwise make it go away. Bob isn’t coming into Florida any time soon. Can you meet with me and Stacy this weekend to discuss that?”
Do you see that?
A Yes, I do.
Q Now, you knew about this E-Mail?
A No. Never. This is the first time I have ever seen it.
Q Well, how did Mr. Merrett know, as early as August 24, 2001, to tell Mr. Dandar that you were withdrawing as an expert witness?
A Well, you know, you would have to ask him that.
I’m not even a part of this. I mean, somebody is talking to me about it. If I said anything, it would just be hearsay, wouldn’t it?
Q So no one told you that the well was dry then?
A You know, I heard that several times. But as you and I both know, the well is not dry. Mr. Minton still has plenty of money to extricate himself out of trouble he gets into by seeing that new lawyers, having had three of them in
934
here since I have been testifying, for Christ’s sake, three different ones, Mr. Battaglia, another one yesterday, the one sitting here now.
Q You didn’t know as of August 24 Mr. Minton had sent the message to Mr. Dandar that there was going to be no more money? You didn’t know that?
A No. No, sir, I did not.
THE COURT: Please try to refrain from taking the Lord’s name in vain in this case.
THE WITNESS: I’m sorry, your Honor, I didn’t even know I — did I say the GD word?
THE COURT: No, you didn’t say that one. You’ll see it on a transcript.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I’m sorry, your Honor.
Like I said, I’m tired, grouchy.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You did. But — he didn’t tell you that the well was dry, Mr. Minton, but he did tell you, you said, about having given Mr. Dandar a $500,000 check?
A Yeah, you know, and I’m talking about 2000, okay?
Then again, you know, just in February, he said, “Look, Ken needs more money. Go over and have this conversation with him.”
So how could the well be dry on this date, but a little while later, hey, here is another quarter of a
935
million.
You know, this was not anything I was privy to, anything I was dealing with.
You know, Stacy was in a complete panic, as I said. We were being raided. You know, motion after motion, deposed, on and on. You know, she was panicked. She got spooked. You know, she was just trying to put a band-aid on this any way she can.
Q It is true Mr. Minton told you — as indicated in this E-Mail, it is true he was concerned about going to jail at that point, correct, in August of 2001?
MR. DANDAR: Objection. There is no jail mentioned in this E-Mail.
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
MR. WEINBERG: Yes, it is.
THE COURT: Yes, there is.
MR. DANDAR: Then I’ll sit down and be corrected.
THE COURT: Good.
THE WITNESS: But you are asking the wrong person. I told you I have never seen this —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q No, I’m asking you, it is true that either Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton told you in this time period that Mr. Minton was concerned that he was going to end up in
936
jail?
A I don’t know that.
Q I’m just asking you —
THE COURT: He said he doesn’t know. He told you that twice. Now, go on to the next question.
Okay?
MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton tell you, at or about that time, that they felt the case was out of control?
A I never — I never really heard those words that the case was out of control. I mean, you know —
THE COURT: But you were being told that they were very concerned that the Lisa McPherson case and Lisa McPherson Trust was all getting inextricably intertwined?
THE WITNESS: Right.
THE COURT: Courts were letting all these documents be acquired. This is what is out of control perhaps, right? So you were aware they were all disturbed about this?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Disturbed at the discovery, yes.
THE COURT: Well, disturbed with — that the Lisa McPherson Trust be shut down?
937
THE WITNESS: Right.
THE COURT: You knew all that, did you? Or did you?
THE WITNESS: You know, I didn’t have an understanding — you know, in all honesty, you know, Judge, Mr. Minton was going through this thing with Judge Baird where he was to appear and he didn’t appear.
I understood none of that. I didn’t understand what was going on. I didn’t understand what the big problem was. If he was supposed to be deposed, you simply come in and you get deposed. You may not like it, you may not whatever.
But, you know, then we had these problems where he can’t come down, on and on. You know, a bad situation just got worse.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You knew that money didn’t have anything to do with Mr. Minton shutting down the Lisa McPherson Trust, right?
A Yes.
THE COURT: Good time for a stop?
MR. WEINBERG: I think so because I have another area to go to.
THE COURT: It is — I need to take a little
938
longer this afternoon. We’ll be in recess until ten after. Twenty minutes.
(WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:50 to 3:15 p.m.)
_______________________________________
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: Ready? Let’s just make an exhibit search here for one second to make sure we don’t have any originals up here.
THE WITNESS: I think we took care of that.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q All right, Mr. Prince —
A Yes?
Q — you have talked several times about being in the desert. Right?
A Yes.
Q There are two locations that are within a few miles of one another that you have been referring to. Right?
A Yes.
Q One is Hemet which is where the Golden Era Productions is where you worked after you left RTC. Correct?
A That is actually incorrect, Mr. Weinberg. It’s Gilman Hot Springs, near Hemet, but it is — it is like its own little separate town.
939
Q Golden Era Productions is in Gilman Hot Springs, and that is what you described as being in the desert? That is one of the locations in the desert?
A Yes.
Q Then the other location in the desert is —
A Soboba Indian Reservation.
Q Is the what?
A Soboba Indian Reservation.
Q And that is where you — that is where you had the introspection rundown with Teresita. Right?
A It was actually behind the reservation in a private-owned property, correct. Yes.
Q That is where you said the RPF was?
A Correct.
Q The incident that — that had to do with the day that you were relieved of your position at RTC and the guns, that was at Gilman Hot Springs?
A Correct.
Q I want to show you some photos.
MR. WEINBERG: These are for you. This can be marked — this Booklet A, 1 through 11, but we’ll mark it as Exhibit 236. But what I have done, your Honor, you have the same pictures, but they are in this book like this. So A1 would be the first one.
THE COURT: Okay.
940
MR. WEINBERG: Okay?
THE COURT: I can keep this?
MR. WEINBERG: You can give it back to us, unless you want to keep it.
THE COURT: No. I’ll give it back to you.
MR. WEINBERG: This is 236. I’m handing this to Mr. Prince.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MR. DANDAR: Do I get a copy?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
MR. DANDAR: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, if you look at A1 through A11, you recognize that as being the location in Gilman Hot Springs that Golden Era Productions was at where you say is in the desert.Correct?
A Yes.
Q And if you would just flip through and just describe very briefly A1, A2, through 11. Could you do that?
A Yes. I think so.
This looks like a view from —
THE COURT: Tell me what you are talking about.
Is it A1?
THE WITNESS: A1.
941
THE COURT: Okay.
A This looks like a view from the dining area and the qualifications area and the studio, the studio from a perspective of the river bank, which is just further back here, the dry riverbed.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q What is A2?
A A2, there is a building here that, you know — wait a minute, yes, I do — this is the dining — this is apparently an aerial shot of the dining area.
Q Okay. A3, do you recognize that building?
A This — I think this may have been some new construction since I have been there. I can’t say. Do I recognize this building? I can’t rightfully say that I do.
THE COURT: Okay, that is an “I don’t know.” And that is enough.
A Okay. I don’t know.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Was Building 36 the main administrative offices of Golden Era? That was on-site when you were there?
A Oh, is this where they do the E-meters and things in there?
Q Do you remember that is where you were interviewed by Mr. Rathbun when you left in 1992, that was the building?
A Yes.
942
Q If you go to A4, do you recognize that as the lake, with the administrative building in the background?
A Yes, I do, with the exercise trail.
Q And A5, do you recognize that as a sports field for the crew?
A In all honesty, I don’t recognize it, but I believe it is.
Q And A6, do you remember there were crew basketball courts?
A Yes. Yes, I do.
Q And A7, what is that?
A I have no earthly idea.
Q That is new, isn’t it?
A I —
Q Or do you know?
A It is outside of my knowledge.
Q Okay. A8, is that another building that is new?
A It’s something that is outside of my knowledge. I don’t know. I have never seen this on the property.
Q Now, you do recognize A9 as the set inside the film studio where you were working?
A No, sir. You know, matter of fact, I never worked in this area of cinematography. I worked in the audio department.
Q There is a film studio on campus, though, right?
943
A Yes. But this looks considerably larger than the film studio that was there when I was present.
Q And A10, was the golf course there while you were there?
A Mmm, I think they had started construction on it and — had hired a company to come out and do it. I think so, but I have never seen this before.
Q Oh?
A What you showed me here.
Q Now, how many years did you work in the desert at Gilman Springs, this location that you looked at, A1 through 11?
A Probably at least ten years.
Q Were the RTC offices there, as well?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Let’s put those aside.
Now we’ll mark as our next exhibit — it will be Photos B1 through 5. It is Exhibit 237. I’ll give you these.
Now, you do recognize B1 through 5 as pictures of the studios where you did work when you were at Gilman Hot Springs after you — after March of 1987?
A Well, in actual fact, the only one that I recognize as the studio that I possibly worked in is B4.
Q And that would be a picture of doing what? What
944
was your job there?
A Well, I take that back, and I don’t want to — you know, I don’t know where this is, as a matter of fact. I haven’t seen this.
This looks like maybe they have new equipment.
You know, this is not anything I’m familiar with, in all honesty.
Q You worked in the film mix room?
A Mmm, I worked in the post-production — this is a building they have on top of the hill from the perspectives from the — the first photograph album that you showed me.
Where I worked at was close to a place that used to be called Bonnie View, which is L. Ron Hubbard’s home at Gilman Hot Springs.
Q And it was a studio something like what you were looking at there? I mean, there was film production or film mix going on. Correct?
A Mmm, I — I can’t say that, Mr. Weinberg, because everything here — all these pictures that you are showing me, with the exception of B4, seems to do with music.
Q Were there things like this at Gilman Hot Springs when you were there?
A Yes.
Q Whether you worked there or not?
A Yes.
945
Q And you recognize that from the photos. Correct?
A Well, again, I said again, B4 is something I recognize as being —
THE COURT: I think the long and short, you really can’t recognize it?
THE WITNESS: I can’t. This is all different from when I was there.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, let me show you —
THE WITNESS: Very beautiful, though.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q The whole location is beautiful, though, isn’t it?
A It looks like it is now. It wasn’t quite like that when I was there.
Q Well, the first set of photos of Gilman Hot Springs, it looked like that when you were there?
A Not exactly. There has been a lot of new construction there, from what I can see.
Q The building you described as buildings that were there looked like that when you were there. Right?
THE COURT: Whatever he said, he said, Counsel.
All right?
MR. WEINBERG: 238. These photos are marked I1 through 3.
946
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q This is Exhibit 238. Would you look at these, please.
A Sure.
Q Do you recognize these photos?
A Yes, Mr. Weinberg. This is the place where Mr. Miscavige and I came to, after the gun incident, to talk about things.
Q This is where you said you walked to the ship in the desert? This is where the ship in the desert is?
A Yes.
THE COURT: Is that the swimming pool (indicating)?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q This is still Gilman Hot Springs?
THE COURT: But the ship in the desert is the swimming pool?
MR. DANDAR: No. There is a ship.
MR. WEINBERG: Actually, if you look at I3, you see the ship.
THE COURT: Oh, okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And it is around a very nice pool area. Correct?
A Correct.
947
Q So when you indicated the ship in the desert where, after this gun incident, you went with Mr. Miscavige is I1 through 3?
A Correct.
THE COURT: Is that a ship? Or a mast on top of a building?
MR. WEINBERG: Ask Mr. Prince.
THE COURT: Is that a ship? Or is that some masts on top of a building?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it is a design that looks like a ship but it is actually a beautiful pool area. It is not a ship but it looks like a ship. There is a wheel there —
THE COURT: But that is what you-all call it, ship in the desert?
THE WITNESS: No. I forgot what we call this thing.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q That is what you called it on the stand, though?
A That is how I referred to it, yes.
Q Then we have one more set of photos to show you — two more, I guess.
MR. WEINBERG: This is just one photo here.
THE CLERK: 239.
MR. WEINBERG: 239. And it is marked J1.
948
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q 239, Mr. Prince, one photo. And I ask you if you recognize that to be a photo of the conference room in Gilman Hot Springs where you were interviewed by Mr. Rathbun in 1992, just before leaving the Church of Scientology?
A Unfortunately, Mr. Weinberg, none of this looks familiar to me at all.
Q Okay.
THE COURT: I’m sorry, did you say it does not look familiar?
THE WITNESS: Correct, your Honor.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay. The last set are three photos.
THE COURT: You want to go ahead and take these?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes. These are marked K1 through 3. And this is Exhibit 240.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you recognize Exhibit 240, don’t you?
A Which one is — is this the thing you just handed me?
Q Yes.
A No, I do not. I do not —
Q Let me go through those K1 through 3.
A I don’t recognize this at all.
949
Q Well, let me just see if I can refresh your recollection.
A Okay.
Q Do you recognize this being at Happy Valley, which is where this Indian reservation is?
A Not at all.
Q So you don’t recognize this as being one of the locations where you were with Teresita?
A No, I do not. It did not look like this at all.
Q Well, what did it look like?
A Mmm, well, the place where Teresita stayed in, it was a wooden house that was on wood planks that sat on the ground. And there was — Mmm — it was very old, kind of like something that had been left for a long time and then kind of started being used again kind of thing. There was none of this lush, beautiful greenery. It was just gravel roads and crap everywhere.
THE COURT: Do you recognize this?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: As long as he can’t recognize it, it can’t really be introduced.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Back at the Teresita house — we don’t have to look at the photos. But the house, do you remember how many bedrooms the house was?
950
A To the best of my recollection, I believe there was one.
Q All right. And then there was, what, a living room, kitchen, dining room, bathroom? What else was in it? Do you remember?
A Mmm, there was a kitchen. There was a room — let me see. There was a kitchen, there was a front door, there was a small room, there was another room, and a bedroom and a bathroom, to the best of my recollection.
Q And a kitchen of some sort?
A Yes.
Q And you stayed — did you stay in the house, as well?
A No. A woman — you know, a woman would stay with her at night.
MR. WEINBERG: All right, let me sort through this, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay, we offer at this time into evidence Exhibit 231, which are the A1 through 11 which are the pictures of Gilman Hot Springs.
THE COURT: I have got those as 236.
MR. DANDAR: It is 236.
MR. WEINBERG: That is because I can’t read very well. It is 236.
951
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: We offer 237, which are the —
THE COURT: He recognized one of those.
MR. WEINBERG: 237 B4, which is the one he identified, this one (indicating).
THE COURT: Right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you remember that?
A (Nods head.)
MR. WEINBERG: Then we offer —
THE COURT: 238 he recognized.
MR. WEINBERG: 238, which is the pictures of the pool and the ship.
THE COURT: 239 and 240, he didn’t recognize any of those.
MR. WEINBERG: Right, so I’ll not offer those at this time. And we’ll leave them marked.
THE COURT: So I’ll give you these back.
MR. WEINBERG: You accepted into evidence what we just offered?
THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Dandar, once again, if you want to object, I’m assuming you’ll do so.
MR. DANDAR: Yes, I will.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. DANDAR: But, then again, I didn’t know if
952
you wanted me — no, I’m just kidding.THE COURT: No, I have done the same with Mr. Weinberg. A lot of times I say it is admitted because I know he will pop up if he wants to object.
MR. WEINBERG: I’m not reluctant to pop up.
THE COURT: Right. But from time to time I want to remind you, you have the right to object.
And I assume if you don’t, you have none.
MR. WEINBERG: Could we fire this up?
MR. LIEBERMAN: That, of course, doesn’t cover our standing objections.
THE COURT: It does not. Standing objections are standing.
MR. WEINBERG: This will just take a second.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q While she’s doing that, let me ask you a couple of questions with regard to what I’m about to show you.
A All right.
Q You testified either yesterday or the day before — or the day before, or weeks before, I can’t remember when it is now when you actually started —
A This — I think this is my third day.
Q Okay. But you testified that you had not participated in any meetings with Mr. Dandar at the LMT.
You remember that testimony?
953
MR. DANDAR: I didn’t hear that. I’m sorry.
THE COURT: He asked if he remembered that he had stated he had not participated in any meetings with you at the LMT.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you remember that?
A Not particularly, no.
Q Well, let me ask you. Did you engage in any meetings — meetings where you discussed legal strategies with Mr. Dandar at the LMT in the presence of Mr. Minton?
A Not that I can recall specifically.
Q Okay. I mean, I think you said that Mr. Dandar was barely at the LMT. Didn’t you say that?
A Correct.
Q Now, do you remember a meeting with yourself, Dr. Garko, Mr. Dandar, Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks at the LMT to discuss picketing and the legalities of it?
A No, I do not.
Q Would you watch this, please. Then I have a few questions.
A Sure.
______________________________________
(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“I love it when I’m on camera.
“Well, tell me what Nancy Miller said to you
954
concerning —
“Not to me. To Kim Rondolini and Denis deVlaming.
“Okay, your lawyers.
“They said that the police department would not be quick — or they would not arrest anyone within the 10-foot zone while they were picketing except for me. If I enter a 10-foot zone, I’ll get arrested period. That is the same as before. But nobody else would be arrested.
“No Scientologist would be arrested just in the ordinary course of things. A Scientologist who happens to be walking down the street getting 20 feet away from me, they wouldn’t be arrested. What Kim Rondolini suggested or
what Lieutenant Nancy Miller said — remember I said this shouldn’t be on camera the other night, but I don’t care, we’ll just leave it on there — is that while they have no right to tell us this, they would ask that we refrain from entering into that 10-foot zone while picketing because if — if something happens — which they felt reasonably confident that the Scientologists might try to provoke — it would in- — inevitably get blamed on us. And, therefore, somebody — somebody might get arrested and it would reflect badly upon me relative to the case that is sitting in front of Bernie McCabe now with respect to the assault — battery charge. Sorry.“Well, I still think the best practice is to stay
955
10 feet away from the building.
“I don’t. You know why? You know why?
“Especially for you.
“For me, I have to because I would violate the injunction by being within 10 feet.
“It is impossible for him to do right now because I just found out what Stacy told me, within the last 36 hours they closed on the building next door.
“Which building?
“The Robelling (phonetic) one going that way.
“The building right next door?
“Yes, right where — wall-to-wall, they just closed in the last 36 hours, it is confidential, somebody came and told me that, literally.
“Well, they tried to get the one right beyond that —
“They got the whole building, the whole thing from Octavio’s to here belongs to them now.
“No, it doesn’t.
“Yes, it does.
“No. No. No.
“Yes.
“Listen, I’m telling you —
“Yes.
“– the injunction is against you and agents and
956
employees of yours. And that doesn’t include the Lisa McPherson Trust.
“That’s right.
“Anybody can walk down that sidewalk except you.
“That is correct.
“Anybody that — that is a volunteer from the trust can walk down that sidewalk without carrying a picket sign.
“Yeah.
“Because they are not in concert with you at the time they’re walking down there to go to a restaurant or get a Coke.
“Exactly. That is what I’m saying.
“I agree with you on that point.
“Yeah.
“However, if you organize a picket —
“Then they should stay on the other —
“– you have to stay 10 feet away.
“Exactly. That is what I’m saying here. All I’m saying —
“But the injunction applies to you whether or not you are in a picket or not.
“Well, it would — the police said it wouldn’t apply to them.
“I think I got it now. As soon as I can — sorry.
957
“Well, okay. Let me give you a perfect example of this today. We had somebody coming from Tampa, Counsel. We had two Germans come in who wanted to do a picket with me.And so we went at lunchtime and did a picket. I told them that as long as they’re with me and we’re picketing, I recommend highly we all stay 10 feet away from them —
“Right.
“– on the other side of the street while we’re picketing. And everybody abided by that.
“Right. Right.
______________________________________
“The policeman, he’s Lieutenant Hall, he’s a really, really nice guy. He’s in charge of this whole area.
“Well then, how come he didn’t know what Chief Kline said? I mean —
“He wasn’t here.
“He wasn’t here?
“Okay, he’s just —
“He’s back today.
“Okay, fine.
“He’s under Captain Jones.
“He was very courteous. He said, ‘I appreciate the fact that all of you have been trying very hard to cooperate with this whole thing. I’m sorry about the confusion that has been caused by this whole thing.’
958
“But, he said — he said, ‘You have every right to walk down a public sidewalk. The only person who has been named that has any kind of restriction is Bob Minton. There is no one else that has been named that has any restrictions.’
“Really, what I understood from what he was saying, it is not the police department’s job to do this. I mean, Sid Kline specifically for —
“Sid Kline — let me just explain.
“Specifically for that picket he said this is the way we’re going to do it. But I think it is putting him in an uncomfortable position to be asked to interpret the law. And so I think that Denis should go before the judge.
Don’t you, Ken?
“Well, in the meantime —
“Seek modification as soon as possible.
“But if we walk down the street, not picketing, I go buy a goddamn apple —
“Let them fucking call the police. Let them call the police, Stacy.
“Don’t talk like that.
“Ask –” (Inaudible.)
“What is this shit about?
“I’m saying it is unreasonable for them to ask us
959
to walk —
“It’s not legal.(Inaudible.)
“You are legally right.
“Legally what?
“You are legally what?
“You are legally right. Everybody can walk down a sidewalk except Bob Minton. (Inaudible.)
“You have the legal right to walk down the sidewalk. The police agree with that. Lieutenant D.J. Hall, who is in charge of this district, who tells his officers what to do and what not to do, said you can walk down the sidewalk except Bob Minton.
“Right.
“But he said, ‘Please, until this gets sorted out, can you walk on the other side of the street so we don’t get called down here a lot and just keep wasting our time driving down here? But if you want to — if you want to and they call, we’ll come down.’ (Inaudible.)
“Okay, here he is. Hi.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you remember that meeting with Mr. Dandar?
A I do not, but I see it now.
Q And the reason that is part of the film library of the LMT is what?
A Personally, I have no knowledge of it being a part of a film library. This looks like a video of — a private video that was shot. And it was never published, that I know of. I don’t think this ever appeared on the Internet. It is not part of the videos that is offered by the Lisa McPherson Trust or anything else. It seemed just like a private video.
Q Do you know what the trial consultant, Dr. Garko, was doing at this meeting where there was — where the legalities of picketing were being discussed?
A No, I do not.
Q And was Mr. Dandar, Mr. Minton or your lawyer or the LMT lawyer at that point giving advice about what you could, couldn’t do, as far as Judge Penick’s order?
A You know, I don’t — I’m sorry, I don’t know. I don’t have recall about that. I know our good friend, Mr. Penick, sorted this out for everyone wonderfully, though.
Q That was at the LMT, correct?
A What we just saw there?
961
Q Yes.
A Yes, it was.
Q You would call that a meeting, the one where you were all sitting in the room, with Mr. Dandar, Dr. Garko and you —
A I would say we certainly were having a discussion.
Q That was one of the examples where you were having a meeting, Mr. Minton would sort of express — sort of taking over the meeting?
A You are mixing two things. He would express his opinion. That doesn’t mean he would take over the meeting. Mr. Dandar spoke. Stacy spoke. I spoke. It seems like everyone has been allowed to speak. There doesn’t necessarily seem to be a chairman of that meeting. We’re just having a discussion.
Q And that meeting took place while you were being paid by Mr. Dandar as a trial consultant?
A I don’t know those dates. I don’t know.
THE COURT: Could you give him a date?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Yes, what was the date? It is January of 2000?
A I’ll stipulate to the evidence. I’ll agree with that.
Q Now, did Mr. Dandar ever tell you, you know, when you were getting paid by Mr. Dandar, including then in
962
January of 2000, that you shouldn’t be — as his religion expert, you shouldn’t be picketing the Church?
MR. DANDAR: I’ll object to Mr. Weinberg raising his voice at the witness. It is uncalled for.
THE COURT: It was fairly modest. So I think Mr. Prince can handle that.
THE WITNESS: After all this, sure.
A You know, I think that — I forgot what the question was.
MR. WEINBERG: She can read it back to you.
THE COURT: I believe it was did Mr. Dandar ever suggest, as his consultant/expert on religion, that you should not be involved in picketing?
A Yes. He didn’t like that. Mr. Dandar didn’t like that.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And he didn’t express that opinion at that meeting that we just looked at, did he?
A Excuse me?
Q He didn’t express that opinion at that meeting that we just viewed, did he?
A I didn’t hear it. I think we were talking about walking down the street, though. I think the subject of that video was walking down the street. It wasn’t so much
963
picketing. We talked about picketing, but what we’re talking about is the ability to be able to walk down the street without being arrested.
THE COURT: And the two videos were entirely different, different — it was different, everybody was all dressed up the second time.
MR. WEINBERG: Was it?
THE COURT: The first time —
MR. WEINBERG: It’s the same day, the same time, because Dr. Garko was there and Mr. Dandar was there. It’s from the same tape, at least.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, for the record, we’re going to supply, for the record, tapes of what we played and transcripts of what we played —
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: — because I doubt that the court reporter —
THE COURT: I’m sure they are able to get it because —
MR. WEINBERG: Some are tough. I mean, that one was probably easier, but all these videos we played —
THE COURT: If the court reporter was unable to get it and you supply a transcript, let the court
964
reporter take it down, because the district court, and I’m sure the Supreme Court, as well, now wants videos, wants tapes, transcribed in the record.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
THE COURT: So if the court reporter got it, that is grand. If the court reporter said she didn’t get it, perhaps you and Mr. Dandar can agree on the — what it was and she can put it in the transcript. Then we don’t need the transcripts in the record.
MR. WEINBERG: So what we’ll do is we’ll put the videos in the record and we’ll have transcripts available for the court reporter, if needed.
THE COURT: I saw Mr. Keane come in. I’ll bet he’s here to say something about this case.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, I’ll step down a second.
THE COURT: Mr. Keane, did you need me?
MR. KEANE: I just have things to deliver to you in camera.
THE COURT: Let’s go ahead, since he’s here, let’s take — will five minutes do it?
MR. KEANE: Yes. Fine.
THE COURT: We’ll just take a little break here. And I’ll be back as soon as I’m done.
(WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
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______________________________________
THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Keane brought me four packets of E-Mails that didn’t look too overwhelming. I’ll take them home tonight and look at them. Some are Mr. Dandar’s, some of Ms. Greenway’s, some are those identified by — who is Stacy Brooks’s lawyer, Mr. McGowan?
MR. FUGATE: McGowan.
THE COURT: As attorney-client privilege.
There is a different group.
So I’ll go through them and decide if any or all of them you can have and make them available.
MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge.
THE COURT: If I don’t get it done tonight, I’ll try to get it done by Friday. Is today Wednesday?
MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
MR. FUGATE: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. LIEBERMAN: One day just runs into another.
THE COURT: It sure does. I just tell everybody 9 to 5 all day every day.
MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, could I talk to Mr. Lieberman?
THE COURT: Yes.
966
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll check an exhibit number.
This is a supplemental affidavit of Jesse Prince that I put in yesterday.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: This is exhibit — Plaintiff’s Exhibit 132.
THE COURT: Are these — are these the exhibits?
THE CLERK: No. Those are the transcripts.
THE COURT: Lee —
MR. FUGATE: Yes, ma’am?
THE COURT: — I thought I had five volumes here of transcripts. And then I see that this is Volume 1 of the time line, discovery, contempt and coercive sanctions. And this is Volume 2. This says Binder 3, 4, 5. I wonder if I have Volume 2.
MR. FUGATE: You, I think, took those with you.
THE COURT: Did I take them with me?
MR. FUGATE: Yes.
THE COURT: I’ll look and see if maybe I have them in my office.
MR. FUGATE: Because I think we were up to Binder 3. And 2 — I mean, 4 and 5 are just since we’ve been back.
THE COURT: But you started Volume 1 with the
967
first day of the hearing?
MR. FUGATE: Yes.
THE COURT: I’ll check it. Those are exhibits.
MR. FUGATE: Let me just check.
Yes, Judge, 1 and 2 beginning, and 3 and 4 and 5 continue on. So 5 is the latest which just went up there today.
THE COURT: I’ll have to look then, because I was thinking I better start taking these home. And I thought I would start with 1. And apparently maybe it is home or here. I’ll check. Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Okay, I just showed you your September — I’m sorry, your December 22, 1999 affidavit — or declaration, the supplemental declaration that you submitted in the Wollersheim versus Church of Scientology California case.
A Yes, you did.
Q And that is Exhibit Number 1 on the front?
A Exhibit Number 132.
Q Plaintiff’s 132?
A Yeah. Evidence 132.
Q Now, this was an affidavit — this was a declaration — but an under oath statement — that was filed by you at the request of Mr. Leipold?
A Correct.
968
Q Now, you did this declaration in response to a declaration that had been filed by Mr. Miscavige in this case a few months prior. Correct?
A No, sir. That is incorrect.
Q Well, you — if you turn to Page 9 —
A Okay.
Q — Paragraph 14, you say: “The missionaire in charge of the San Francisco mission holder’s vision was David Miscavige. Mr. Miscavige is flat out attempting to deceive this court in his declaration when he characterizes his presence at the conference as that of an ‘invited’ master of ceremonies.”
A Okay, yes, you are right. I remember that.
Q Do you remember that now?
THE COURT: The whole affidavit may not have been filed in that response. I remember reading that last night. It was one of the things I took home. I just remember that as being part of the affidavit. I mean, I’m not saying it wasn’t.
THE WITNESS: Right.
THE COURT: I don’t know why it was filed. But that is just one of a lot of stuff in there?
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
969
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q But what I’m saying is when you — you had reviewed and were being asked, among other things, to comment on things that had been raised or discussed by Mr. Miscavige in his declaration. Correct?
A Well, not entirely. What I was asked to do specifically by Mr. Leipold was to do a declaration that would shed some light into how Scientology works, how the different corporations relate to each other, what are the names of them, what are the practices of them. I think —
THE COURT: Well, when you said — I didn’t mean to get off here. When you said whatever you said about Mr.Miscavige was misleading the Court, was that in some testimony? Was this in a declaration? In a deposition? Or do you know?
THE WITNESS: I don’t recall at this time.
MR. WEINBERG: But it says here the declaration.
THE COURT: Then it must be the declaration.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
MR. DANDAR: Which page is that on?
MR. WEINBERG: Paragraph 14 on Page 9.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And declaration is this thing that is used in the California court, as opposed to an affidavit in Florida,
970
correct?
A Correct.
Q Now, let me show you what we’ll have the reporter mark as the next exhibit.
THE CLERK: 241.
MR. WEINBERG: 241. Do we have a copy for the Judge?
THE COURT: What is the number?
THE CLERK: 241.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. WEINBERG: 241. For this part I’ll just give you this.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q If you look at that declaration, you remember that Mr. Miscavige filed a long declaration with regard that was submitted in the Wollersheim case that you reviewed and at least commented on in this declaration that you filed a few months later. Correct?
A Yes, I did comment, in part, in my declaration about this one.
Q Right. And as this one indicates, it was filed on September 29, 1999, which would be a few months before your declaration was done. Correct? Yours is December.
A That is correct.
971
Q Okay. Now —
THE COURT: Out of curiosity, I just started leafing through here real quick, and I see if this is a declaration that came before Mr. Prince’s declaration, on Page 54, Paragraph 115, it says:
“Further, I do not know why Prince would allege he signed an undated letter of resignation.”
MR. WEINBERG: Right, because this is —
Mr. Prince’s, the one in front of you, is a supplemental declaration.
THE COURT: Mr. Prince had a declaration?
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
THE COURT: Mr. Miscavige —
MR. WEINBERG: Responded to it.
THE COURT: Then this is a supplemental?
MR. WEINBERG: Right. All right?
THE COURT: Okay. And what I was given yesterday and what I read last night was a supplemental affidavit?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes. The one that —
THE COURT: 134, whatever you call it.
MR. WEINBERG: Let me just — I should — I’m usually better at this than that. It is 132, it is Mr. Prince’s supplemental declaration.
THE COURT: All right.
972
MR. WEINBERG: Okay? It is falling apart.
(A discussion was held off the record.)
MR. WEINBERG: Now, your Honor, what goes along with this declaration is there were exhibits, this and this. We will just put this in the record.
This is part of — of 241.
THE COURT: What is that?
MR. WEINBERG: It would be exhibits that go with Mr. Miscavige’s declaration.
THE COURT: Other than what I have got attached to this —
MR. WEINBERG: Yes. Well, this is Exhibit Q.
THE COURT: Oh.
MR. WEINBERG: — of the declaration, “The Way To Happiness,” which you have seen before.
And the tape is what? The tape is — I’m not sure what the tape is. What is the tape? Oh, I need the tape back. The tape was actually some of the videos we are going to put in from yesterday.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: So exhibit — what was it –241?
THE CLERK: Yes.
MR. WEINBERG: Exhibit 241 is what you have in front of you, plus Exhibit Q here.
973
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: Which you may or may not want.
That is “The Way To Happiness.”
THE COURT: I thought “The Way To Happiness” was the little book, the little brochure.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, I guess I’ll open this up and find out. I have to look.
No, this is a — well, this is a —
THE COURT: This must be a —
MR. WEINBERG: This is a better — this is what was filed. This is the — the bound copy of it.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll give a copy to Mr. Dandar.
MR. DANDAR: I object to the relevance.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, it’s — it’s Mr. Prince’s affidavit that Mr. Dandar put in yesterday. It was in response, at least in part, to this. So, therefore, we’re offering Mr. Miscavige’s affidavit, your Honor.
THE COURT: I’ll let it come in as to whatever part relates to this testimony. I’m sure there is stuff that doesn’t. But rather than try to pick and choose, we’ll just let it all in for now.
MR. WEINBERG: All right.
THE COURT: And this is, I’m sure, a deluxe
974
version of the little brochure.
MR. WEINBERG: I think it is. I’m sure it is.
THE COURT: That was Number 241?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Thanks.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you have in front of you your April 2002 affidavit.
A No, I do not.
Q Probably not. Mr. Dandar marked that yesterday.
MR. WEINBERG: Could we see if we can find that one? That is the one that was filed — the most recent affidavit.
THE COURT: Is that the May 2002? No?
MR. DANDAR: April. April.
MR. WEINBERG: I think it’s April, your Honor.
You marked it as an exhibit, right, Mr. Dandar?
MR. DANDAR: I thought I did, yes.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Dandar, I’m looking here,”Notice of Filing Affidavit in Opposition of Defendant’s Omnibus Motion.” Is that the one?
MR. DANDAR: That is the one.
THE COURT: Okay. It is dated — “Jesse Prince, sworn the 1st day of May, 2002.” So I want to make sure we’re looking at the same one.
975
MR. DANDAR: Let’s make sure. The front says April 2002? The next page? Yes, that is it. I see the attachment.
THE COURT: It says April 2002. He signed it May 1. We can agree it’s the same?
MR. DANDAR: It’s the same.
MR. WEINBERG: Do you have a copy for Mr. Prince?
THE CLERK: What exhibit is that, Judge?
THE COURT: I don’t know. It was something that came in —
MR. WEINBERG: Well, it was filed in this case.
THE COURT: It is filed.
MR. DANDAR: I would like it to be part of the evidence.
THE COURT: Yes, let’s make this the next plaintiff’s exhibit, which would be what? We’ll make this Plaintiff’s 135.
So now it is Plaintiff’s 135.
MR. DANDAR: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Mr. Prince, you have a copy of it?
A Yes, I do.
THE COURT: Do you have that?
976
THE CLERK: No. I don’t.
THE COURT: Well, you’ll have to give the clerk one.
MR. DANDAR: Well, I’ll make a copy of that as soon as we’re done.
THE COURT: Okay. Because I have one here but it is mine.
MR. DANDAR: It is yours.
THE COURT: And I guess what you want to be sure is the notes — I think they were attached to the original affidavit.
MR. DANDAR: Yes.
THE COURT: — are part of the affidavit.
So, Madam Clerk, you have an affidavit with some attachments, some handwritten notes?
THE CLERK: Right.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Counsel.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, this is an affidavit that was prepared by who?
A Which one now?
Q The one we’re looking at.
THE COURT: The one you have in front of you.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q The one that says April 2002 but I guess it is
977
dated May 1, 2002.
A Okay. You know, you gave me three of them here.
Q I gave you what?
A Three declarations.
Q Oh, I’m sorry, the one that Mr. Dandar is entering as his next exhibit is your May 1, 2002 affidavit.
A Okay.
Q Who prepared that affidavit?
A I did.
Q And where did you prepare it?
A Mmm, in Mr. Dandar’s office; partially at my home.
Q When did you prepare it?
A Well, according to this document, it looks like I started it in April and executed it May 1.
Q But, now, this isn’t too long ago. So I’m asking you, when do you recall that you first started work on this affidavit?
A Mmm, let me see. Maybe the second week of April. I don’t know. The second, third week of April. No — yeah, maybe the third week of April.
Q The third week of April?
A Yeah.
Q And did you — at that point, did anybody make any suggestions, revisions, changes, to your affidavit?
A Mmm, no.
978
Q Who typed the affidavit?
A I did.
Q So it was produced off of your computer?
A Yes.
Q Or what?
A Yes.
Q Executed in Mr. Dandar’s office?
A Correct. I used my laptop.
Q Now, did — what prompted you to do this affidavit?
A My friends were being blackmailed and coerced. There was nothing that I could do to get them to try another solution to whatever problem that they were trying to have — they wanted me to do it with them. I refused to do
it. I spoke to law enforcement about these things. And I put it in writing for the benefit of Judge Schaeffer and anyone else who would be interested in it.Q The time that you started this affidavit, the Church had already filed its motion terminating sanctions and for disqualification in this case of Mr. Dandar?
A I don’t know. I don’t remember.
Q Well, did you have a copy of the motion when you prepared this affidavit?
A I did not.
Q Had you — did Mr. Dandar ever provide you with a
979
copy of the motion?
A As I sit here today, I can’t say that he did.
THE COURT: He may have. You are not saying he didn’t, either, right?
THE WITNESS: No, I don’t — terminating sanctions? No, I don’t think I have seen that thing.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And how did you find out that there was — that there had been a motion filed to dismiss this lawsuit as a result of allegations of misconduct and to disqualify Mr. Dandar?
A When it came over to this courtroom, I think it was here the first day because I had been a sequestered witness from Judge Baird’s court, you know, where this thing started. Then when it came over here, I was able to appear
in court the first day. And I was here for it.Q Mr. Dandar asked you to prepare an affidavit in response to the motion for sanctions?
A Mmm, no, Mr. Weinberg. This is something that I had to sit down and do. It’s not anything I could keep carrying on in my head. I knew that I would have to sit down and write about this.
Q Now, these notes that are at the back of this, that is April 14th, 2002. You see that, correct?
980
A Yes.
Q Had you already started writing your affidavit as of April 14, 2002?
A No. Because this is the day that I met with Mr. Dandar, Mr. Lirot, then later on that evening met with Mrs. Brooks and Mr. Minton.
Q So it was sometime —
A But, you know, this was just like in case anything happens to me where I don’t appear again, at least this would be written.
Q So the affidavit was written sometime between April 14 — written and completed, obviously, sometime between April 14 and May 1?
A Correct.
Q Now, you attended — I think you testified — the April 9, 2002 hearing before Judge Baird where Mr. Minton testified, purged himself, with regard to his contempt? In other words, purged himself of perjury?
A I —
Q Do you understand that concept?
A You know, I guess that is one way to look at it.But the way I describe it in my affidavit, he got up and lied to save his own skin.
Q And you were there?
A Yes, just for a very short amount of time. And
981
I — and I covered that really extensively here. The first lie I heard, I got up, I was out the door.
Q And that is when you got really angry at Mr. Minton for the first time?
A I wouldn’t say that. No. I was more upset by the situation. I — I didn’t have anger directed at Mr. Minton.
I mean, I was upset about what he did but, you know, this is my friend. We have been watching these videos. You see we had a close relationship. So it wasn’t like I want to do something to him. I was angry what he had done.
Q Now, it’s your testimony that weeks before that Mr. Minton had told you, before he ever met with Mike Rinder and Sandy Rosen at the end of March, he told you that he had been told that the Church already had his $500,000 check?
A No. I gave testimony about this. I’ll try to answer it as best I can. And I think it is covered here in the very beginning of this affidavit of when all of that talk had started.
Yes, Page 3 of the same affidavit, Paragraph 9, if you go to Line 28, it says: “Bob said there was a problem with some checks he had given to Ken Dandar. Somebody is going to die,” on and on.
Q All right. But there is nowhere in this affidavit where you say that Mr. Rinder or the Church of Scientology
982
had the $500,000 check prior to the meetings in New York, or even at the meetings in New York, correct? You don’t say that in the affidavit, do you?
A Correct.
Q Did Mr. Minton tell you in this — at any point that his name didn’t appear on the $500,000 check?
A Yes.
Q And you first learned that when?
A That Mr. Minton’s name wasn’t on the check? I think I learned that — you know, I’m not going to speculate. I’m not sure when I learned that.
Q Well, did you learn it at or about the time that Mr. Minton gave the check to Mr. Dandar?
A No, I did not. I wasn’t present when he gave the check to Dandar. You are talking about the $500,000 check?
Q That is the one I asked you about.
A Okay. Well, that particular check I — I think I’ve given testimony concerning the fact that, you know, he took us to the top of the parking garage and told us about this. I’d never seen anything physically with my eyes.
Q Now, where in the affidavit do you talk about the parking garage? Can you show us?
A Mmm, I meant my testimony. Not in here, in the —
Q But is it — didn’t you address it in your affidavit?
983
A I may have. Let me see.
Q Look at Page 11 at the top.
A Okay.
Q You see where you say, “I reminded them of an incident that happened in August 2001 –”
A Yes.
Q “– where Bob said the case was costing too much and Ken had to cut costs. Part of the cost-cutting was to not pay Mr. Garko until the case was over. Bob invited me and Stacy Brooks to the top level of a parking structure
directly across the street from the LMT to make sure there was no illegal surveillance going on, and he said Ken is getting $500,000 and that was all he was going to get and it was a big secret and we were not to tell anyone about it.”Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q So your most recent sworn affidavit, May 1 of 2002, you said that this alleged incident in the garage took place in August of 2001, not in May of 2000. That is what you say. Right?
A I’m completely confused.
Q Well, look at it again then.
A Okay. Oh, 2001. Yes, that is an error. It was 2000. That is an obvious error. This happened in August of 2000 when the check was issued. Right?
984
Q No.
A Okay.
Q That is not right. May 1, 2000.
A The $500,000 check?
Q Yes.
A Okay. Sorry. I didn’t remember it like that. I didn’t have the check at my convenience to have that date there. I did the best I could.
Q Well, do you think it is important to be accurate in your declarations, sworn testimony, sworn affidavits?
A Yes, I do.
Q And you are very specific in this reference I just read to you about the circumstances where this alleged conversation took place when Mr. Minton was pulling back in August when we all know that the LMT was about to shut down. That is what you said. Right?
A No.
Q You — we just read it, “Part of the cost-cutting,” that is what you’re talking about?
A What does that have to do with the Lisa McPherson — LMT? I mean —
Q It’s that you described this very vivid incident on the garage in the context of the August 2001 time period when Mr. Minton is cutting back. That is how you describe it. That is how you date it. Correct?
985
A Okay. That is an error. I thought this $500,000 check happened in 2000. Am I wrong about that?
THE COURT: No. You are not wrong.
THE WITNESS: Oh.
THE COURT: It was 2000. But what you said was August.
THE WITNESS: It was not my intention to commit perjury by making a typographical error, if that is what you want to ask me about this, and you pointed it out. No one else did. You know, I’m sorry.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Well, if you said May of 2001, maybe I would understand. But it says August of 2001. So where is the typographical error here?
A Because the check was given to Mr. Dandar when?
In 2000, is that right?
Q The testimony is May of 2000.
A Okay. Well, you know, beat me for making a typographical error. I may not have the exact date right. But the incident is correct.
Q So the incident when Mr. Dandar was given the $500,000 check was at the same time that Mr. Minton had decided not to fund the case anymore and to cut back? Because that is what this says.
A Mr. Minton had — well, you know, I stand by this
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testimony, whatever it says, with the exception of this typographical error that you correctly point out.
And I think I explained this a little bit yesterday — or whatever day it was — when, you know, they were doing the accident reconstruction, jury surveys. I mean, the costs were mounting. And he was concerned.
Q Who was concerned?
A Mr. Minton.
Q He was concerned about the costs in the Lisa McPherson lawsuit?
A Correct.
Q And so what does that have to do with you dating the $500,000 check when he was concerned about the mounting costs of the Lisa McPherson lawsuit?
A You know, I’m just totally confused. I don’t know where we’re going with this.
Q Well, where we’re going —
A I made a mistake here. I said — I said 2001. I should have said 2000.
Q You said August and you should have said May. And then you should have said, instead of it was at the time that Mr. Minton was cutting back, it was actually the time when he was funding the lawsuit.
Other than that, you didn’t make any mistakes. Right?
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A Well, beat me for making a mistake. But, Mmm —
THE COURT: Well, what page is this on, again?
MR. WEINBERG: It’s on Page 11.
THE WITNESS: 11.
MR. WEINBERG: At the top.
THE COURT: I have got it.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Well, it’s not that I want to beat you for making a mistake. But is it important to you that your sworn testimony is accurate, or not?
A That is the second time you asked me that. And, yes, I have the same answer. Yes, it is. I made a mistake.
Q Well, do you think you might have made some other mistakes in your sworn testimony, whether it is in court here or in this affidavit or the August 20 affidavit or the other affidavits that you filed?
A Mr. Weinberg, I think I’m doing the best that I can to bring out this testimony into this hearing.
Q Now, after you got angry when you saw Mr. Minton for a short time testify on April 9, 2002, you, a few days later, met with him and Ms. Brooks at the Adam’s Mark Hotel?
A Yes.
Q And that was on or about April 12th?
A Approximately. Yes.
Q You had dinner?
988
A Yes.
Q And you-all talked about ending the fight against Scientology?
A We talked about committing perjury on behalf of Scientology.
Q Did Mr. Minton tell you that he was relieved because he was finally — he was finally going to be telling the truth and not perjuring himself anymore? Did he tell you that?
A Absolutely not. He told me he didn’t feel good about it, he still wasn’t certain about it, that it was the right thing to do.
He felt horrible about what was going to happen — or the charges that were going to happen to Mr. Dandar.
Q Now —
A He had a conscience about it.
Q Now, when Mr. Minton told you, you say, in March of 2002, that the Church already had this $500,000 check, did you pick up — and it was going to cause — I guess you said it was going to cause him problems, right?
A Yes.
Q He said it was going to cause Mr. Dandar problems, right?
A Cause him problems. He didn’t say Mr. Dandar. He said it was going to cause him problems.
989
Q Because he was going to have to lie about it, is that what he said?
A No. Because he had already lied about it.
Q All right. Now, did you pick up the phone then, given your concern, and call up Mr. Dandar and say,
“Ken — Mr. Dandar, Bob Minton told me that the Church has this $500,000 check and he perjured himself in your lawsuit and it’s a problem”?
Did you do that?
A No.
Q Why not?
A Well, Mr. Rosen — why do I want to call you Mr. Rosen?
THE COURT: It is late in the day.
THE WITNESS: It is late in the day.
A Mr. Weinberg —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q We’re both Sandys but he’s a lot taller than I am.
A Yes, that is true.
Why didn’t I immediately call Mr. Dandar?
Q Why didn’t you call Mr. Dandar?
A Because I thought that there was actually something that I could do to — you know, to encourage Mr. Minton to not go down this road. I mean, they’re busy trying to drag me down this road. I’m busy trying to tell
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them, “Don’t do it. Don’t go down there.”
Q Did it concern you Mr. Minton was telling you he had already perjured himself in this lawsuit? That is what you just said he told you. That was a problem. Right?
A The problem was that that check surfaced. There was some problem about where it came from. Mmm, I personally don’t know his deposition testimony or his — his testimony that he had given in the courts, what he had said
about that. I don’t know that today. I haven’t read any of that stuff.But, you know, I described the situation where a man is on the phone, crying uncontrollably, very upset. You know, there was a lot about this that didn’t make sense.
And I’m sorry I couldn’t have been more rational about it to ask a question such as that.
Q After the meeting, dinner, whatever it was, on April 12 at the Adam’s Mark, the next time you met with Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton was at the Radisson on Sand Key a couple of days later on April 14, is that right?
A I believe I met with them on a Saturday. If I’m right, I met with them at the Adam’s Mark. And the next day I met with them at the Radisson.
Q So whatever the Saturday is, the 12th, 13th, then the next day you went back to the Radisson?
A A Sunday.
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Q And that is the last meeting you had with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks?
A Correct.
Q That is the day you went to the Radisson is the day that you prepared these notes. Right?
A Earlier that day I prepared these notes.
Q All right. So when you actually went to meet at the Radisson with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, you had already sat down with Mr. Dandar and Mr. Lirot. And who else?
A You know, my girlfriend was there.
Q Was anybody else there?
A Mr. Haverty.
Q Anybody else there?
A Not that I specifically recall.
Q Was Miss Greenway there?
A I don’t know. I don’t think so.
Q You had already sat down with Mr. Dandar and Mr. Lirot and Mr. Haverty?
A No. That is incorrect. I only spoke to Mr. Dandar about this. I pulled him aside and spoke to him about that specifically.
Q So when you said you met with Mr. Lirot, you didn’t really meet with Mr. Lirot, you only met with Mr. Dandar?
A That was the first time I had ever met Mr. Lirot.
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Q Can you just answer that question? You didn’t meet with Mr. Lirot, you just met with Mr. Dandar to tell him your concerns, right?
A Correct. And then at the end of that, toward the end of that meeting, I shared some things with Mr. Lirot about it.
Q All right. And is there a particular reason why you met Mr. Dandar at a mall, as opposed to his office?
A Yes. Because I have a continuing concern that my house is electronically bugged by Scientology for illegal surveillance purposes. And I wanted to be in a place where I felt secure in not having that concern.
Q Well, you didn’t have the meeting at your house.
A Correct.
Q My question was why didn’t you have the meeting at Mr. Dandar’s office?
A Because his air-conditioning doesn’t work on the weekend and it is very hot in there. You know, they turn it off. He’s in a building where they turn the air-conditioning off — you know, it’s like a 9-to-5 kind of place. At 5 o’clock, boom, it starts getting hot. On the weekend they don’t turn it on because there is no one in the office, unless you want to pay $25 an hour.
Q So it was his suggestion you meet in the mall?
A Yes.
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Q Was there a particular place in the mall where you met?
A We were at the International Plaza at some lounge.
I don’t remember the name of it.
Q Just sitting at a table?
A Yes.
THE COURT: Counsel, please. Please. Move into something —
MR. WEINBERG: I will. I will.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Your testimony is, I think, that you didn’t call Mr. Dandar to set up this meeting.
A Correct.
Q You called Frank Oliver, one of the people that was connected with the Lisa McPherson Trust, to set up the meeting with Mr. Dandar. Right?
A Correct.
Q Now, Frank Oliver lives in Miami?
A Correct.
Q Frank Oliver, as far as I know, has never been a consultant or expert for Mr. Dandar. Is that right?
A You would have to ask him that. You know —
Q Do you know from your experience?
A No. I do not know.
Q And you called — you have had dozens of phone
994
conversations with Mr. Dandar over the years. Correct?
A Hundreds.
Q Right. And we have your phone records in evidence from the LMT.
A Right.
Q There are hundreds of phone calls. Is that right?
A Well —
Q In other words —
A Well —
Q You know his number?
A Yes.
Q Why didn’t you pick up the phone and call him?
A I’ll state it again. I was at home using my home phone. I didn’t want to call him because of those concerns.
I called somebody else.THE COURT: Was there concern that Mr. Dandar’s phone was bugged, as well? Or not? You did not have that concern.
THE WITNESS: No, I didn’t have that concern.
THE COURT: So the concern you had was your phone was bugged at your house?
THE WITNESS: Correct.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So — and you picked Mr. Oliver because? Why?
A I trust him. He’s my friend.
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Q So from your phone — which you had a concern was bugged — you called Mr. Oliver and said, “I really need you to call Mr. Dandar and set up a meeting with me”?
A No. “Ask him to call me because I want to help him.”
Q Asked who to call you?
A Mr. Dandar.
Q Call you where?
A I called Mr. Oliver and asked him to please have Mr. Dandar call me because I want to help him.
Q Okay. So doesn’t that still concern you, if your phones were bugged, if Mr. Dandar was going to call you?
A I didn’t want to have a long, protracted conversation with Mr. Dandar on my phone specifically about what I wanted to talk to him about.
Q Well, you could have just picked up the phone, called him and said, “I don’t want to have a long, protracted conversation with you over the phone, let’s have a meeting”?
A No, I could have done that. And if I was a wasp, I could have flown away. Where is this going?
Q But you didn’t do that?
A No.
THE COURT: Is there some relevance to that?
Because if there isn’t, I wish you would move on.
996
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll go on. Mr. Oliver is the next witness. And, you know, I —
THE COURT: Mr. Oliver may or may not be the witness.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, Mr. Dandar told me he was the next witness.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And did you have any kind of conversation with Mr. Oliver, other than to ask him to tell Mr. Dandar to call you?
A No.
Q So you didn’t tell Mr. Oliver the details of what was going on?
A No.
Q You didn’t tell anybody else the details of what was going on other than Mr. Dandar?
A Incorrect. I told Denis deVlaming. Denis deVlaming’s brother.
THE COURT: Some agent — I mean, come on.
We’ve been through this testimony.
MR. WEINBERG: I know. Just names.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I mean, there was no nobody else other than what you testified to?
997
THE COURT: That you can remember, Mr. Prince, at 4:40 in the afternoon —
A Correct.
THE COURT: — when you have been on the stand all day.
A Yes, that is correct, Mr. Weinberg.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you testified that you went to the FDLE — to FDLE Agent Strope. Correct?
A Correct.
Q Now, Agent Strope is the — one of the two law enforcement people that were the principal investigators of the criminal investigation of the Church of Scientology. Correct? You knew that?
A Yes.
Q And you had had meetings with Agent Strope over the years?
A I would say that is correct.
Q And what kind of meetings had you had with Agent Strope over the years in your role as either LMT’s VP or trial consultant for Ken Dandar?
MR. DANDAR: Objection. Outside the scope.
THE COURT: Overruled. What is a trial VP?
MR. WEINBERG: I said VP of LMT or a trial consultant.
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THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q My question is —
MR. LIEBERMAN: It’s getting late.
THE COURT: It’s getting late. Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: And I know the hour.
THE COURT: Well, if you come to a nice little stopping point, we’ll stop. But whatever this is all about, you met with Agent Strope. What is it you want to know about that?
MR. WEINBERG: He said he met with him over the years.
THE COURT: Right.
MR. WEINBERG: What I want to know is, you know — you know, what was the — the —
THE COURT: I’m not going — you can ask him about the conversation that he had about whatever is going on in this hearing.
But as far as what he talked to Agent Strope about over the years, that is outside of the scope and I’m not going to let you go there.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, then —
THE COURT: I’m not letting you go there.
Finish up.
MR. WEINBERG: Do you think maybe we can stop
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now and just go to —
THE COURT: No. Finish with Agent Strope. I don’t care if it takes until six o’clock. Then we’re going to stop.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you met with Agent Strope where?
A In his office downtown Clearwater.
Q And you — was anybody else with you?
A No.
Q Was anybody else with him?
A No.
Q Did he record the conversation?
A He recorded it inasmuch as he took copious notes as I spoke.
THE COURT: Recording means did he put a tape recording on?
THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, nothing electronic.
THE COURT: That is what he means when he says recording. If you don’t understand what somebody says, ask.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you know if he filed a report with regard to
1000
what you discussed with him?
A I do not.
Q Did he — did he ask to — did you have any — did you reach any agreements with him with regard to cooperation?
A I specifically asked him, “Based on the information — ” I said “– this looks like racketeering to me, it looks like RICO, criminal activity that starts in New York, continues in New Hampshire and carries on down here in Florida.”
And I briefed him on the fact that they’re calling me — you know, I wanted — when I went to deVlaming,
“Please give me a wire so that you can hear what these people are saying,” you know. You don’t — “I don’t even want you to hear it from me. Please give me a wire so you can hear what they’re saying.”
And he told me that —
Q “He” being DeVlaming? Or “he” being Strope?
A Mr. Strope — Mr. Lee Strope. He told me that he would see what he could do, but — Mmm — you know, he was — he was — he was pretty upset about what had happened himself, you know, when I told him this because, again, Mr. Strope and I do have a relationship.
But he — that is when he gave me that message to give to Mr. Minton.
1001
Q Well, let’s — one thing at a time.
A Okay.
Q Did he wire you up?
A No.
Q Did he — did he ask you to report back to him?
A No.
Q Did you have any further conversations with him?
A No — well, I take that back. I’m sorry. He came to Judge Baird’s hearing. I believe he was there for a short time. And we made casual conversation. It was obvious that this thing was going to be protracted and no decision was going to be made any time soon about any type of perjury so he said he would be in touch — we would be in touch.
Q But you haven’t been in touch with him since?
A No.
Q Did Mr. Dandar instruct you to go to Agent Strope?
A I’m not sure if it was Mr. Dandar or Mr. Emmons.
Q Mr. Dandar’s investigator?
A Correct.
Q Did you report to Mr. Dandar and/or Mr. Emmons your contact with Agent Strope?
A Yes, I did.
Q And the day that you went to Agent Strope, was what in relation to these notes of — of April 14?
1002
A I do not remember.
Q Well, you obviously went to Agent Strope before you met with — for the last time — Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks?
A That is incorrect. And that is my fault because I mixed it up, speaking about DeVlaming, when you were asking me specifically about Mr. Strope, because it was with Mr. DeVlaming that I asked him to give me a federal agent,
not a local person, that would be willing to put a wire on me, because, you know — but by the time I met with Mr. Strope, the opportunity was passed.THE COURT: You met with Strope after. That is not the person you met with when Denis deVlaming or Doug DeVlaming or whenever somebody sent you to see somebody?
THE WITNESS: Douglas DeVlaming said he would do the contact himself. He contacted the agent, explained the situation to him, then he called me and told me what the federal agent told him.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Right. Well, that was a federal agent. You never met with a federal agent, right?
A Personally, no.
Q So that is what Mr. DeVlaming was doing?
A Douglas DeVlaming.
1003
Q But at the suggestion of Mr. Emmons or Mr. Dandar, you are the one that initiated the contact with Agent Strope of the FDLE. Correct?
A Well, you know, that is not the way you said it, Mr. Weinberg. You said who asked you to go. I said it was either Mr. Dandar or it was Mr. Emmons. Now you are saying I arranged it and somehow — you know, one of the two persons, Mr. Emmons or Mr. Dandar, arranged or contacted Mr. Strope and arranged for me to meet with him.
Q The way we started was I was just trying to date it. It was sometime before the April 14 last meeting with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. Correct?
A Incorrect.
Q So you went to Agent Strope after you had had your last meeting with Ms. Brooks and — and — and Mr. Minton?
A Correct.
Q You wanted Agent Strope to make you an informant?
A No. I wanted Agent Strope to do what he could to talk to someone on a federal level to deal with this problem, because in my mind it was a federal crime. I asked him about that.
And he — you know, he said, “If what you are saying is true, it is a federal crime.”
I didn’t want to fool around with the Florida folks. I wanted something federal, because it happened in
1004
New York, it happened in New Hampshire, and it happened here in Clearwater.
Q At the time that this was going on, you meeting with Agent Strope, did you know that Mr. Minton had a lawyer with regard to these matters?
A Oh, I think it was Mr. Howie, wasn’t it? Well, he had a couple lawyers. Mr. Howie. Mr. Jonas.
Q And it’s your testimony that Agent Strope told you, if not instructed you, to deliver a message to Mr. Minton?
THE COURT: He already testified to that.
A Correct.
THE COURT: Asked and answered.
A Correct.
THE COURT: I believe I asked the question the second time. So we really don’t need it for the third time.
MR. WEINBERG: All right.
THE COURT: The testimony is what it is.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And you delivered the message?
A Yes, I did — well, as I testified, my fiancee delivered the message. She read it to him. I wrote it down on a piece of paper. She read it to him over the phone.
MR. WEINBERG: That is a good stopping point.
1005
THE COURT: Okay. Then we’re done for the day.
And we will start tomorrow at —
(A discussion was held off the record.)
THE COURT: We’ll start tomorrow at nine.
We’ll be in recess.
MR. WEINBERG: I should tell Mr. Dandar, I don’t have very much more with Mr. Prince, so he needs to be ready for the next witness.
MR. DANDAR: How much more?
THE COURT: Have your witness here in the morning.
MR. DANDAR: Judge, I’m handing over to the defense my response to the request to produce.
THE COURT: I don’t have to get into that unless you-all don’t get together on it.
Requests to produce normally don’t require the Court.
MR. DANDAR: I just wanted to file it with the clerk.
THE COURT: We’re in recess until 9 o’clock.
Good night.
(WHEREUPON, Court is adjourned at 4:55 p.m.)
______________________________________
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REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties’ attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action.
DATED this 10th day of July, 2002.
______________________________
LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
Testimony of Jesse Prince (Volume 5) (July 9, 2002)
582
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,vs.
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants._______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants’ Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
CONTENTS: Testimony of Jesse Prince.1
VOLUME 5
DATE: July 9, 2002. Afternoon Session.
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida.BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge.
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.583
APPEARANCES:
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for PlaintiffMR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. LEE FUGATE
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.584
MR. STEPHEN J. WEIN
Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A.
980 Tyrone Boulevard
St. Petersburg, Florida 33710
Counsel for Robert Minton.585
THE COURT: You may be seated. Okay, before we begin, two questions. Have you decided when you want the trial date, Mr. Dandar?
MR. DANDAR: September.
THE COURT: All right. Have you decided whether or not you need Mr. Rosen?
MR. DANDAR: No, I don’t need Mr. Rosen.
THE COURT: All right. Then I’m going to assume that — I will go ahead and enter an order pro hac vice admitting Mr. Rosen, just in case.
He’ll be admitted, just for this purpose. And I’ll let you have —
MR. FUGATE: Should I prepare an order, Judge?
THE COURT: Do you mind?
MR. FUGATE: No.
THE COURT: Tell him to prepare an order, whatever.
MR. FUGATE: I’ll do it.
MR. DANDAR: So, Judge, since we will start picking a jury for the trial in September, what specific date would that be?
THE COURT: The second week in September. Whatever that Monday is.
MR. DANDAR: All right.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
586
MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
THE COURT: That, of course, assumes the motion to dismiss is not granted.
MR. DANDAR: I understand.
THE COURT: Mr. Lirot, are you still of the mind that if Mr. Dandar is removed as counsel, you are prepared on that date?
MR. LIROT: Hope springs eternal, Judge. But yes, Judge, I’ll be prepared on that date if need be.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Mr. Prince, what I was trying to do before the lunch break was finish up on the meetings that you had with Mr. Minton and Stacy Brooks.
A Okay.
Q I believe we left off with your meeting with them when things got a little testy at the hotel for dinner.
A At the Radisson.
Q At the Radisson. In my — your note attached to your affidavit, you said you met with me before you met with them that Sunday. So that was April 14th.
A Okay.
Q All right? So let’s go from then on. What happened after April 14th?
587
A Mmm —
THE COURT: I’m sorry, he met with you before he met with them?
MR. DANDAR: That same day. That is where this handwritten note —
THE COURT: Right. For some reason, I thought it was after. But it was before?
MR. DANDAR: On this particular day he met with me at the mall with Mr. Lirot. And that was April 14th.
THE COURT: In the afternoon? Then he went there in the evening?
MR. DANDAR: Then he went there.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q What happened after April 14th?
A Mmm, well, contact again — and I think I mentioned I had the one phone conversation with Mr. Minton where I invited him over to my house.
But they — they talked to me — or got messages to me via my fiancee. They would talk to her.
And if anything happened — we wouldn’t talk, we were not talking.
Q And what messages did you receive from Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks that way?
MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: Hearsay. That would have to be
588
hearsay. I mean, that would have nothing to do with Mr. Minton’s state of mind or anything in this proceeding, so you would have to, at the very least, bring in the other person.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q So you never talked with Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks since then directly, one-on-one?
A I talked with Mrs. Brooks. Mmm, she just told me that everything was going to be fine, regardless of whether or not I agreed to go with them or participate in activities with them with Scientology. She just told me things were
going to be okay.Q When did Ms. Brooks stop paying you your monthly income?
A Either March or April.
Q And you said before that you went to Denis deVlaming’s office and spoke with him, and he couldn’t help you because of the conflict of interest. Did you go to any law enforcement?
A Well, it’s not entirely true to say that Mr. DeVlaming couldn’t help me.
What Mr. DeVlaming did do is refer me to his brother because, again, I wanted to somehow get a federal law enforcement involved in this, since my perception was that the criminal activity — conspiracy and criminal activity happened at least in New
589
York, New Hampshire and Clearwater.
Mmm, he said that he would talk with a federal agent that he did know and get back with me. He — I guess maybe a day or so later, he had a conversation with the federal agent, Mr. Douglas DeVlaming.
And he told me, after speaking with an agent, they thought that it would make a difficult case because Mr. Minton was now on the stand lying, telling lies. If he changed his mind —
MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Did you ever meet personally with law enforcement?
A Yes, I did.
Q All right. Who did you meet with?
A I met with FDLE Agent Lee Strope.
Q Did you talk about Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks?
A I pretty much gave Mr. Strope a complete rundown of the meetings, with the dates similar to how I laid it out there in the affidavit. And after —
THE COURT: Mr. Strope is with what agency?
THE WITNESS: FDLE.
THE COURT: FDLE?
A And after speaking with him, he asked me to give Bob Minton a message. And the message was that if it is determined that you have perjured yourself on the stand,
590
that he would see to it that charges would be brought.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q This is Mr. Strope telling you to talk to Mr. Minton?
A This is a message Mr. Strope asked me to give Mr. Minton specifically.
Q Did you give him that message?
A Mmm, I wrote — I hand-wrote what he said. I gave it to my fiancee and she read it to Mr. Minton over the phone.
Q Okay.
THE COURT: Mr. Prince, is it your testimony here today under oath an agent of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement asked you to deliver a message to someone?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Any other meetings with law enforcement?
A Not about this specific incident.
Q Okay. Now, what was your impression, after meeting with Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, on the meetings you have just mentioned, all of these meetings —
MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form. What was his impression?
THE COURT: Yes. What does that mean?
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MR. DANDAR: I didn’t finish my sentence.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q What was your impression as to who was the person who was creating the scenario that I told Mr. Minton to lie?
A Mr. Rinder.
Q And what is the basis of that? What is the basis of your impression it is Mr. Rinder?
A Because that is what they said.
Q Who said?
A Bob and Stacy.
Q All right.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, could we just — I mean, is that — your Honor, so his testimony is that at some point Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks said that Mike Rinder said for Mr. Minton to lie?
THE COURT: Yes. That is his testimony.
MR. WEINBERG: Could we date that testimony, please?
THE COURT: Mr. Prince, is that your testimony?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
THE COURT: If you could look at your affidavit and tell us which one of these conversations that that conversation took place.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Let me see if I see it
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here. I don’t seem to have my affidavit up here.
THE COURT: You don’t? I think I have it right here, if it will help.
MR. DANDAR: Well, I have the affidavit right here. I’m sorry. I was looking at it instead of listening to the Court.
THE WITNESS: This would have had to have happened sometime after the date that I mentioned on Page 5, Line 16, Paragraph Number 11 of the 3rd of April or 2nd of April, sometime after that time period.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q After this — after the 2nd or 3rd of April?
A Correct.
Q All right. Did Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks tell you this on more than one occasion?
A Well, the subject of the meetings — after they returned to Clearwater with Mr. Bunker April 2nd, the many times that I met with them, the subject of the conversations concerned what they were asked — or what they were being asked to do, what they wanted me to do.
So that was a continuing theme until, you know, the point that it finally broke off, because I didn’t, I guess, qualify to meet with the Scientologists or speak with them about this myself. But it was a continuing theme of
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conversations.
THE COURT: I believe that, in fairness, Mr. Prince may have testified to some of this yesterday, too.
MR. DANDAR: I think so maybe.
THE COURT: And may have dated some of this yesterday. I’m looking through his affidavit. I am remembering some of his testimony from yesterday.
MR. DANDAR: All right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Now, Mr. Prince, yesterday you talked about Volume 0 and 00. Do you recall that? You looked in the book Introduction To Ethics and you said —
A Yes.
Q — what you were looking for may be in Volume 0 and 00?
A Yes.
Q And there are a bunch of books over there. Are there any of the books you want to refer the Court to?
A Sure, if I could just walk over there.
MR. DANDAR: Is that all right, Judge?
THE COURT: Yes. By the way, Ms. Greenway asked if she could take my picture. You can’t take pictures when court is in session. So I gave her permission to come in and take pictures when court
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wasn’t in session of whatever she wanted to take pictures for. But when court is in session you cannot take pictures unless you are connected with the media and you are a pool photographer. Then you can.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q No other books?
A No.
Q All right.
A This is — first off, I would like to say yesterday that I said that this was a crime for a person to give testimony about Scientology. I actually misspoke. It is a suppressive act to do that, according to this document here, suppressive acts, suppression of Scientology, Scientologists, the fair game law. And what it states specifically is —
THE COURT: Tell us, first of all, what are you reading from.
THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q The book?
A I’m reading from HCO Division 1 Policy Volume, Scientology Policy Volume.
THE COURT: Okay. Those are Scientology policies in a book?
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THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is there a page number?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. It is 553, what I’m going to make reference to.
MR. LIEBERMAN: Could we have the date on that book?
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Copyright on the front?
THE COURT: Would it matter with these policies —
MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, some, it may.
THE WITNESS: This is copyright 1970 through — what is it, 1950, it looks like. These are all of the copyright notices here.
THE COURT: Okay. I’m going to let you-all take a look at it.
MR. WEINBERG: Now? Or —
THE COURT: No. Let him go ahead and have his testimony, and then before cross-examination you-all can look at the book.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q So a suppressive act is someone saying they want to leave Scientology?
A Yes. And testifying as a hostile witness against Scientology in public is a suppressive act.
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Q All right. That has to do with testifying?
A Correct.
Q What about leaving Scientology or saying you want to leave?
A Mmm, yesterday I showed the reference and we went through that. It’s a high crime to publicly depart Scientology.
Q This may be something I already marked. Let me show you what has been marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit 133. CS Series 22.
Can you identify that Exhibit 133?
A Yes. This is an HCO bulletin of 28 November, 1970, Mmm, subtitled “CS Series 22.” The “CS Series” means case supervisor series. It’s — it’s a series that is a staple or basic for persons that are supervising auditing in Scientology. And this document refers to the subject of psychosis.
Q And this document came from the PTS/SP course book you read yesterday. Is that correct?
A Correct.
Q Okay. Now —
THE COURT: Who is permitted to take that course? Maybe you asked it before, but, I mean, if I’m a new Scientologist, new public member, can I go register for that course?
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THE WITNESS: You certainly could. Any Scientologist in good standing —
THE COURT: Could take that course?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q This course book also contains the search and discovery bulletin?
A I believe it does.
Q Okay. Now, this particular document, Exhibit 133, CS Series 22, does this have anything to do with people wanting to leave?
A Well, if you turn to the second page, it talks about the easiest ways for a case supervisor to detect the insane, and we go down here to Number 6, it says: “They often seek transfers or wish to leave.”
Q Now, does this apply to staff as well as public members?
A Absolutely.
THE COURT: I think this is already in evidence, isn’t it?
MR. DANDAR: I’m not sure. You told me to mark this yesterday as an exhibit.
THE COURT: Well, now that I’m looking at it, I’m thinking I read it before. But if you are not
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sure, you want to introduce it again, why, that is all right.
MR. DANDAR: I’m really not sure.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. DANDAR: I know we talked about this yesterday.
THE COURT: I’m not positive if this was the document, but I have read some of this before.
MR. DANDAR: Yes. It is quite possible.
MR. WEINBERG: We have no problem, but the next-to-last sentence says: “The insane can be helped, they are not hopeless.” We don’t have a problem with this. But the introspection rundown comes after this policy.
THE COURT: But you have no objection to this being introduced?
MR. WEINBERG: No.
MR. DANDAR: We move it into evidence.
MR. WEINBERG: It was referred to in the introspection rundown which was introduced three or four years later, this policy.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Speaking of the introspection rundown, Mr. Prince, speaking of your experience, expertise, is there any part of
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the introspection rundown that is considered religious?
MR. WEINBERG: Objection to his competence to this because Mr. Prince previously testified he wasn’t trained on the introspection rundown and never — as an auditor never did any introspection rundown.
THE COURT: I thought he did.
THE WITNESS: That is correct. I did. I never was — I never stated that I was not trained on the introspection rundown.
THE COURT: I’m sorry, what?
THE WITNESS: I never stated I was not trained on the introspection rundown. That is false. I am very trained on the introspection rundown.
MR. WEINBERG: What he said was he participated in an isolation watch, not as the auditor, you know, but as one of the people staying with Teresita.
THE COURT: Is isolation watch and introspection rundown the same?
MR. WEINBERG: It is part, Step whatever it is, 0, 00.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. DANDAR: This will kind of answer the question, I think.
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BY MR. DANDAR:
Q So, Mr. Prince, is there parts or all of the introspection rundown that is religious? A religious practice?
A Mmm, in the very first bulletin about the introspection rundown, L. Ron Hubbard describes it as a new technical breakthrough that marveled something else of the 20th century, I forget specifically what it says there. But it was hailed as a researched scientific discovery for handling insanity.
MR. WEINBERG: So, your Honor, is what Mr. Dandar is doing is challenging whether or not the introspection rundown is part of the religion of Scientology? Because if he is, I think that has already been decided in this case and it is not appropriate and we should not be wasting our time on it.
THE COURT: Haven’t we decided that — or — I don’t know because I don’t know — I saw a motion once that dealt with religiocity. I didn’t hear any of that.
MR. DANDAR: That was not the —
MR. LIEBERMAN: But you have stated several times, your Honor, that there is no question in this case as to the religious nature of Scientology or
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religious nature of the introspection rundown.
THE COURT: Okay. I know I have stated that I have no question on the — that the Church of Scientology is a religion and it is a recognized religion in the Church. And I have no question in my mind that Lisa McPherson was undergoing some sort of introspection rundown. I didn’t know whether I said that introspection rundown is part of the religion of the Church. I don’t even know if that is a call for me to make, to tell you the truth. I would suspect the Church doctrine would tell us whether it is or isn’t.
MR. LIEBERMAN: That is correct. And the Church characterizes what is religious practice.
THE COURT: I don’t know if I have seen that or not. I know we have a Mr. Rice affidavit. I haven’t looked at it in some time.
MR. LIEBERMAN: And he quite clearly places it within the Scientology practice. In fact, every part of Scientology, by definition, is part of Scientology belief and practice and is not a matter for the Court to challenge what is characterized by the Church as this religion.
THE COURT: I am going to let him answer this. I think he already has answered it, but I don’t know
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we’re going to go there. And certainly one answer isn’t going to get it there.
MR. DANDAR: Right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Mr. Prince, Mr. Hubbard called it scientific breakthrough?
A That is correct.
Q Did he ever call it religious practice?
A Never.
Q Did he call auditing a religious practice?
A No.
Q Oh.
A Not to my knowledge. I mean, this whole business of religion — I don’t know, you know, it is kind of — has kind of reared its head in Scientology every now and again. When I was here at the Flag Service Organization in 1979, there was a scare — a cold war scare of some nuclear threat and conscription in the Army and on and on. This is what we were told. So all of the staff had to do a two-week course called the minister’s course where you are instantly trained to be a minister. This was part of — a program which, in part, was to kind of improve or create a religious image for Scientology.
But if you will notice, in every document that Mr. Hubbard writes about Scientology, whether or not it is a
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green —
THE COURT: I don’t want to hear this. The United States Government, State of Florida, on and on down, determined Scientology is a religion, the Church of Scientology is a church. I don’t care what they used to think, what they used to say. It doesn’t matter. That is it.
MR. DANDAR: What I’m — I was getting at is just the introspection rundown itself.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q The part of the introspection rundown talking about get some rest —
MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I —
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q — make sure you eat —
MR. WEINBERG: This is precisely why Mr. Prince should not be an expert, considered an expert in Scientology, because as he sits here today, he still is sitting there saying it is not even a religion or a church. He doesn’t recognize it —
THE COURT: He wasn’t. He was talking about some things that were said back in the 1970s when they were all sitting around talking —
MR. WEINBERG: He just said that — well, I
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don’t want to argue with you. I mean, it — that is where he was going with this and that is what this — that is what this is about.
MR. DANDAR: It is not what this is about. I just asked him what I’m asking him now, the introspection rundown, the part that talks about resting and eating — resting and eating, something else —
THE COURT: 0, 00.
MR. DANDAR: Yes, those two steps.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q In your experience within the Church of Scientology, was that ever considered a spiritual or religious part of Scientology?
MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, again, this is unconstitutional inquiry. You can’t bifurcate a religious practice and say part is and part isn’t. To just even hear this testimony is an unconstitutional attack on the religion.
THE COURT: Mr. Lieberman, your objection on that is preserved.
MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you.
A Well, you know, since — you know, people that are atheists or other ideas also rest and sleep. You know, it never came to me that this was a religious experience to
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rest and eat.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Well, and in your knowledge of Scientology, if someone is injected with Valium or chloral hydrate, are they eligible to have auditing?
A According to — Mmm — the HCO bulletin entitled Model Session —
Q How do you spell that?
A Model, M-O-D-E-L, model session, a person who has had drugs or who has used drugs continuously is not eligible for auditing until six weeks after the period of taking the drugs.
Q Now, in your experience with Teresita, you said Dr. Dink, Hubbard’s doctor, came out and injected her with some kind of drug?
A Correct.
Q And she went to sleep?
A Correct.
Q How soon after that did she have auditing?
A Within hours after awaking.
Q Was that within the written policy?
A Is that what now? I’m sorry.
Q Is that per policy to have an auditing right after you have slept off the effects of the drug?
A Well, in the introspection rundown bulletin, it
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states that each program is tailored specifically for the individual. So to that degree, if the person had to sleep first in order to get auditing, they would get the auditing, but then there is also later references in Scientology technology which state that in a period after the auditing that was delivered, while the person was on drugs, you could then go back and check those areas again to make sure that everything is fine.
Q Okay. Let me show you Exhibit 134. And do you recognize where this copy of this Page 258 comes from?
A Yes. This comes from the Hubbard Administrative Dictionary.
Q And what — how does it define the phrase “high crimes”?
A It says: “High crimes. 1. These consist of publicly departing Scientology or committing suppressive acts. Cancellation of certificates, classifications and awards and becoming fair game are amongst the penalties which can be leveled for this type of offense as well as those recommended by Committees of Evidence.”
MR. DANDAR: Okay. That is all of the questions I have.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may inquire.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
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CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Mr. Prince, David Miscavige busted you from your position of authority — your executive position of authority in the RTC — in March of 1987, didn’t he?
A Correct.
THE COURT: I’m sorry, you just got started.
Did you want to introduce this 134?
MR. DANDAR: Yes, sir. In fact —
MR. WEINBERG: We object to that. I would like to see the dictionary, see what the date of the dictionary was.
MR. DANDAR: Do you have it here? In fact, I just realized, unless you want to do this later, there are a bunch of things I marked and didn’t move them into evidence.
THE COURT: I’ll go ahead and let you do that —
MR. DANDAR: Later?
THE COURT: — later. But don’t forget.
MR. DANDAR: Right. Yes.
MR. WEINBERG: Should I start over?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Mr. Prince, David Miscavige busted you from your
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position — your executive position of authority in the RTC in March of 1987, didn’t he?
A Correct.
Q And at that time you were removed from your post, the last executive post you ever held in the Church of Scientology. Correct?
A Correct.
Q And that post, you said, was deputy inspector general external. Right?
A Right.
Q Now, you were removed because you had supported Pat Broeker and Annie Broeker and Vicki Aznaran in their effort to change Scientology tech. Correct?
A That is categorically false.
Q That was precisely what occurred, that Pat Broeker, who had designated himself the loyal officer, was in the process of changing, among other things, the Scientology grade chart, right? That is what he was doing?
A That is categorically false.
Q So Mr. Broeker wasn’t doing that?
A Correct.
Q And you never acknowledged that Mr. Broeker did that?
A Correct.
Q So Mr. Broeker wasn’t off on his own, trying to
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change the religion of Scientology, after Mr. Hubbard died?
A Well —
Q Yes? Or no?
A Excuse me. Let me answer the question.
THE COURT: Well, I’ll tell you how this works on cross-examination. Go ahead and answer the question, but if you feel you have to explain your answer, you are allowed to do that after you have answered it.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I’m sorry.
A Ask me the question again.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Wasn’t Mr. Broeker caught in — in an attempt to change Scientology tech?
A I have no percipient knowledge of that.
Q You have no percipient knowledge of that?
A In other words, I was not there — let me — I was not there. I didn’t see him changing anything. And, again, I was going to say, I have heard some hearsay about it. Since you vehemently object about it, I won’t comment about it, but I — you know, I haven’t personally been with Mr. Broeker when he’s altering Scientology technology.
Q When you were in the RTC prior to March of 1987, in that year after Mr. Hubbard died, you became aware of the
610
fact that some point in time that Mr. Broeker was changing and altering Scientology tech, weren’t you?
A Incorrect.
Q You became aware of the fact that Vicki Aznaran was part of an effort to change Scientology tech, weren’t you?
A Absolutely incorrect.
Q And what happened in March of 1987 is that Mr. Broeker was removed from all authority. Correct?
A Mr. Broeker was removed from authority.
THE COURT: Wasn’t? Or was?
THE WITNESS: He was, your Honor.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Annie Broeker, his wife, was removed from all positions of authority. Correct?
A To my knowledge, that is correct.
Q Your boss, Vicki Aznaran, was removed from her position of authority. Correct?
A Correct.
Q And you were removed?
A Correct.
Q And you were at that time — at that point in time, you went from what you described as an executive position with some authority in the — in RTC. Right?
A Correct.
611
Q To no authority whatsoever?
A No. That is incorrect.
Q From — for the next five years after March of 1987, did you ever hold a position where someone was junior to you? You know what I mean by that?
A Yes, I do. And, yes, I have.
Q I mean, you were, what, a machine operator after that?
A Mmm, no. I worked on post-production, pre-production and post-production for films.
Q That was one of the things you did, and you were a Cinemix, was that your job?
A No.
Q What was your job?
A My job was like an assistant engineer, assistant sound mixer. Again, I state I worked for post-production and pre-production for films and videos.
Q During that period of time you were in the RPF a couple of times. Correct?
A Incorrect.
Q How many times were you in the RPF?
A I was in the RPF two times, but not that period of time.
Q You were in the RPF in March of 1987. Correct?
A Correct.
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Q All right. Until what, the end of 1987?
A Mmm, I think it was — I wasn’t in there a very long time. I think maybe four months.
Q By the way, there is no higher crime in Scientology than changing the tech. Correct?
A That is incorrect.
Q Well, what would be a higher crime than changing Mr. Hubbard’s scriptures?
A Placing Scientology and Scientologists at risk.
Q One of the highest crimes in Scientology is to alter the tech. Correct?
A It is a high crime to do that. Yes.
Q Now, for the next — for those five years after you were busted — and that was the day you claimed, by the way, that you pulled these guns on David Miscavige and threatened to kill him?
A You didn’t mention a specific day. What day are you talking about?
Q Well, what day are you talking about when you were busted?
THE COURT: Without worrying too much about the date, the date you testified about when you were rousted from bed or got out of bed and went and got the guns, that is on the same day, right?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I’m sorry.
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THE COURT: That is the day you were busted?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: That is what he was referring to.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I’m sorry. I just didn’t understand the question.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q That is the same day you claim you pulled these guns on David Miscavige and you threatened to kill him.
Correct?
A I didn’t threaten to kill Mr. Miscavige. What — maybe you have a wrong idea about what happened there.
I came there to defend myself. Twelve people were attacking me, were trying to hold me. Because I do know karate and have a black belt in it, I was able to get them away from me until I went and got protection for myself.
Q So then these twelve people that were attacking you let you go back to your room, get these two loaded guns?
A They didn’t know where I was going.
Q That didn’t really happen, did it, Mr. Prince?
A Yes, it did.
Q You didn’t pull guns on David Miscavige.
A Yes, it did.
Q So this is the person you say you could still be friendly with?
A You know, Mmm — yes. And I need to explain
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something here because, you know, Mr. Weinberg, you and I have been around and around on this in front of Judge Moody. So, you know, you are giving me the exact same questions and I’ll sit here and be patient with you, but I think the record reflects we have done this one or two times before.
THE COURT: See, I haven’t heard it. This is my hearing, so we’ll do it again.
MR. DANDAR: Explain yourself.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So you contend that you really did go back to your room, get two loaded weapons, and walk back and enter a room and point them directly at David Miscavige?
A No, I never walked back into a room. By that time —
Q You ran back into the room?
A Would you like me to explain it? I —
Q Explain it.
MR. DANDAR: Wait. Wait. Objection.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did you —
MR. DANDAR: He needs to explain it.
Mr. Weinberg —
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll withdraw that question.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did you point two loaded guns —
MR. DANDAR: That is not fair.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q — at David Miscavige?
A No, I did not.
Q Who did you point them at?
A I had the one gun on my hip and the .45 in my hand. And they stood this way. The assault rifle never was pointed at anyone. It was just on my hip like this. And I had the .45.
And Mr. Miscavige, when he saw me, walked directly up to me with those guns in my hand and said, “Jesse, we are friends. Let’s talk.”
So I don’t think he felt that threatened. And I think that Judge Moody pointed that out to you the last time we were doing this.
Q I mean, no one would feel threatened when they had just busted somebody from position and the person got so mad to go back to the room and get two loaded guns and walk into a room. You can’t imagine anybody would be threatened by that, would they?
A I think that is a mischaracterization of what happened.
Q Well, my question is was there a particular reason
616
why you never told that story until — until you started getting paid to be a witness in the FACTNet case in 19 — whatever it is, 1998?
Why you waited all those years to tell that story?
A Mmm, I don’t know how to answer that question, Mr. Weinberg. You are associating things that don’t associate. You are associating with me being paid telling stories. And there is no association there.
Q Well, is there a particular reason, in the years after this alleged incident took place, that took you until 1998 to first tell this story about pulling guns on David Miscavige?
MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. It makes no sense. Telling stories where? Under oath? In a deposition? To his friends?
THE COURT: I don’t, either, because I don’t know whether you are talking about the first time he ever testified about that, and if that is the first case he was ever involved in, that is the first time he ever testified about that.
MR. WEINBERG: I —
THE COURT: I’ll tell you one thing —
MR. WEINBERG: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to —
THE COURT: — don’t get ahead of me because you want to go at this witness.
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MR. WEINBERG: You are right.
THE COURT: I won’t have it.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
THE COURT: I won’t have you really cutting this man off. I mean, I know you want to get where you want to go. But you’ll have to go slow.
And, Mr. Prince, whatever you told Judge Moody, I haven’t heard it, I haven’t seen too much of the transcript before Judge Moody, so I don’t want to hear what I — I already told Judge Moody this, I am not Judge Moody.
THE WITNESS: I understand.
THE COURT: If he asks you a question, unless I tell him, “You can’t ask that question,” just answer, even if you have already answered it before.
Okay?
THE WITNESS: Okay. Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Let’s go.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You were interviewed by Earle Cooley while still in the Church in 1988, weren’t you, in relation to another lawsuit?
A I would have to see something about that. I’m not sure what you are talking about.
Q You didn’t say anything about the guns to him, did
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you?
A Again, I would have to see what you’re talking about.
Q Well, you mention the 1994 interview with Mr. Cooley. You didn’t say anything about the guns to him in that interview, did you?
A I mean, you know, you are mixing apples and oranges. I mean, I don’t understand what you are asking me. I mean, I have told that story long before 1998 to my friends, my family, people that I know. I mean, you know, it isn’t like here is some money, let’s tell this story. I beg to differ with the way you are characterizing what happened here.
Q The reason you told the story to Mr. Minton in April of this year was to threaten him as to what you would do as to what kind of person you were? I mean, what did you tell him about it for?
A I told him that story, as I gave testimony yesterday, to show that Scientology, more than likely, will never keep or honor an agreement with anyone. It wasn’t to say I’m going to run and shoot you with guns. It was to give him an example to show him that Scientology will never honor an agreement.
Q Now, you would agree that the positions that you held after you were busted were extremely low positions in
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the Church of Scientology?
A I would beg to differ on that, as well.
Q Now, you were — you were so humiliated, apparently, by Mr. — what you claim Mr. Miscavige did in March of 1987 that you pulled these guns on him. That is what it was about, wasn’t it?
A Absolutely not. And even as we have been sitting here, I think I made it clear to you why I went and got those guns. It wasn’t humiliation. It was being attacked.
Q You were —
A Physically attacked.
Q You resented the fact that you had been busted?
A I resented the fact I was being physically attacked by people that used to be my friends.
Q No. My question is did you resent the fact that you had been busted from your executive position in RTC?
A And I’ll answer the question it isn’t so much that I resented the fact that —
THE COURT: Come on, Mr. Prince, of course you must have been annoyed. I don’t know why we’re playing a semantics game. Anybody would be annoyed if they were busted from the position they thought —
THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, that isn’t right.
I think that deserves clarification because I was
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pretty much tired of that activity that I had been involved in, in Scientology. I was ready for a change. I was ready to be done with that position because that — that position responsibility entailed being involved in criminal activity.
This is something that I had not experienced in Scientology prior to going to Gilman, Hot Springs and working at that level. To me, Scientology was something different than what I was doing.
So, no, it wasn’t a big deal for me, you know. I was already wanting to be away from that responsibility.
But what was a big problem for me was twelve people grabbing me, because I had an earlier incident of that happening in Scientology where six people grabbed me and locked me in a room for three months, and I ended up staying 16 years. So that had precedent over that position I was being removed from.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So you were relieved by the fact you were busted from your position?
A Yes. I was somewhat relieved by it.
Q Now, you — you, Jesse Prince, dislike vehemently David Miscavige, don’t you?
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A I would not say that that is true. I have no vehement dislike for him. I dislike the things that he does. But I don’t envy his position. He’s the leader of a religion. He has a lot of responsibility. That doesn’t give you license to be a criminal, though.
Q You spent the last four years, ever since you met apparently sometime in the summer of 1998, started getting paid by, ever since you met Mr. Minton, you spent the last four years trying to destroy David Miscavige, haven’t you?
A That is incorrect.
Q You have picketed where you have spoken vilely and obscenely about Mr. Miscavige, haven’t you?
A Yes, I have.
Q You have picketed various Churches of Scientology around the country and even in the world, correct?
A That is incorrect. I never picketed an organization outside of the United States.
Q Just in this country?
A Correct.
Q You have threatened David Miscavige in these pickets, haven’t you?
A I need you to clarify what you mean by threatened for me, please.
Q Threatened to do harm to him.
A I have jokingly alluded to it, yes, I have.
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Q You thought it was funny?
A Yes, I did.
Q And did you think it was funny when you were outside the various Churches of Scientology, including what you call the mecca of Scientology, holding signs and shouting obscenities about the leader? You thought that was funny, too?
A I — I think you would have to show me or present evidence that I was holding a sign, shouting obscenities.
Q Oh, we will, Mr. Prince.
A Okay. I would like to see that.
Q Did you think that was funny?
A I would like to see the evidence, please, sir.
Q Would you consider, sir — I mean, I think you said that Mr. Minton was the — something basically the most harassed person you’d ever seen, something to that order?
A Something along that order, correct.
Q Would you consider what you and Mr. Minton and Ms. Greenway and Mr. Alexander and Mr. Oliver and the other folks at the LMT — would you consider what you were doing harassing Scientology?
A Well, what were we doing that was supposed to be harassing?
Q I mean —
THE COURT: His question to you is whatever it
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was you were doing, would that be, in your mind, harassing Scientology?
THE WITNESS: Well, I guess to clarify it, if it meant picketing, does that mean harassing Scientology? It has a broader meaning to me. It means I’m exercising my First Amendment rights as a citizen to protest.
Mmm, if you want to call that harassing Scientology, I call it exercising my freedom.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I’m asking you, because remember you talked about the harassment time line of Mr. Minton?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember talking about that?
A Yes.
Q And my question to you, if — if we put all of your pickets and all Mr. Minton’s pickets and all your postings and all Mr. Minton’s postings and all of the postings of these folks that have been in and out of the LMT and all the pickets of them on a time line, do you think that time line might be somewhat larger than this Minton harassment time line?
A I think it would be minuscule and it would pale by comparison.
Q By the way, are you part of an anti-Scientology
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movement?
A I have never been part of an anti-Scientology movement.
Q Are you an anti-Scientologist?
A No, I am not.
Q What do you consider yourself?
A I consider myself in the instant case where I’m sitting right here today an expert witness concerning Scientology.
Prior to that, I worked in an establishment whereby I helped people who had been victimized by Scientology.
Q And would you consider Mr. Minton to be an anti-Scientologist during those four years that you were part of the A team, I think you said?
A I consider Mr. Minton to be an activist.
Q An activist?
A Yes.
Q What is that?
A You tell me what it is. Do you need to know what the word means? I mean, he was an —
Q What do you mean —
A — activist concerning —
Q What do you mean when you say he was an activist?
A He was an activist ensuring the rights, basic
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human rights, that are accorded to us through our constitution.
I think Mr. Minton got started on his relationship with Scientology when he found out a Scientologist was trying to remove the name “Scientology” from a newsgroup — or at least this is the way he explained it to me. And how
lawyers and raids and things would come to even discuss Scientology, which is how I knew it from being in Scientology.I knew if you ever spoke about Scientology outside of Scientology, you would get clobbered. So to actually see people doing it openly on the Internet was —
THE COURT: That is well past the answer. You don’t have to — we have to try to get through this.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: He simply asked you to define what an activist was. And I think you have done that.
THE WITNESS: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, when did you begin — when did you begin your work against Scientology? What date or time?
A Mmm, I began to give testimony concerning Scientology, to the best of my recollection, in the FACTNet case.
Q Specifically, up until I — I think you said you
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considered yourself a Scientologist until, I think you said, 1997. Correct? Isn’t that what you said in your testimony?
A I think maybe ’96, I said.
Q All right. So you considered yourself a Scientologist after you left the Church of Scientology in 1992, after you say that you were — you said all those horrible things happened to you in the five-year period, you still considered yourself a Scientologist in ’93, ’94, ’95 and ’96. Correct?
A I think I should clarify that for you, if that is okay. I think that I still had Scientology values. I think that I still respected some of the tenets of Scientology, and I freely associated with Scientologists.
Q Well, you were working for a public member of Scientology for several years, right?
A Several years is incorrect.
Q How many years?
A Maybe one.
Q This is the job that the Church had helped you get after you left the Church where you were making $60,000 or $70,000 a year. Was that your testimony?
A I think you are mis-characterizing what happened. No, that is not my testimony. The Church didn’t help me do anything. It never has.
Q Well, just tell us one of those Scientology values
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that you — that you continue to accept and feel close to after you left the Church of Scientology.
A That man — man is a spiritual entity. That — Mmm — man is capable of seemingly — seemingly more capable than is realized and those potentials can be cultivated and used and expanded on.
Q Any other ones?
A You know, some of the organical principles about the importance of organization, the importance of schedules. You know, these kind of things.
Q When you were a Scientologist, you believed, did you not, that psychiatric problems were spiritual in nature. Correct? That is what you believed? And could be dealt with spiritually through the religion of Scientology. You believed that when you were a Scientologist, didn’t you?
A Yes, I did.
Q And that is what Scientologists believe, don’t they?
A I can’t speak for all Scientologists. I know that, you know, as you are trained in Scientology, you accept more and more of what you read, and it’s a progression, it is a degradation of belief system, I guess.
But I couldn’t say that everyone believes that.
Q Well, you could say that Scientologists — no Scientologist would want to be committed to a mental
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institution. You can say that, can’t you, from your years as a Scientologist?
A Mr. Weinberg, I can say that about Scientologists and anyone else. There is no one that I know that is aching to be committed to an institution.
Q But I’m asking you from when you were a Scientologist —
A Uh-huh?
Q — the last thing that you would have — you would have rather shot yourself than be committed to a mental institution?
A Absolutely not. I mean, that is unreasonable. It is irrational.
Q Well, can you think of anything worse, as a Scientologist, than to be committed to a mental institution?
Can you just answer that question?
A Rehabilitation Project Force, maybe.
Q One of the fundamental principles of the Church is — is the Church’s abhorrence with psychiatry and mental health treatment. Correct?
A Well, you know, Mr. Weinberg —
Q Can you just answer that question?
A I used to believe that is the answer. I used to believe that. But I found, from Mr. Hubbard’s autopsy report that I had a copy of, that he himself was taking
629
psychiatric medication —
MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike.
A — in his life. So maybe —
THE COURT: Stop. There is an objection. You have to stop.
MR. WEINBERG: It is not responsive to the question. It was a very simple question. Yes or no.
MR. DANDAR: I would say this is outside of the scope of direct and the issues.
THE COURT: It is not outside the scope of direct and not outside the scope of the issues but, quite frankly, this is not helping me any.
MR. WEINBERG: All right.
THE COURT: It is an interesting banter between you and Mr. Prince and —
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll go on.
THE COURT: — this might be of interest to a jury, but it really isn’t of interest —
MR. WEINBERG: All right.
THE COURT: — to me.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Since you have met Bob Minton, all of the money that you have received since June, other than this apparently $4,000 that you just got from Mr. Dandar, that
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you have received since June, July, of 1998, up until April of 2002, came directly or indirectly from Mr. Minton, didn’t it?
A That is incorrect.
Q And all of the money — all of the money that you have received in that period of time you received as a result of your work about or against or involving Scientology?
A That is incorrect.
Q Correct?
A That is incorrect.
Q What is incorrect about that statement?
A I think that — Mmm — that all of the money that I have had during those periods of time derived from those activities, that is — specifically is incorrect about it.
Q What, 99 percent of it? 95 percent of it?
A You know, I have turned over my financial records to you. I think they speak for themselves.
Q All right. Let me play you — because you asked me to — let me play you a video — some videos and maybe this will refresh your recollection. I’ll ask you some questions about it.
A All right.
MR. WEINBERG: Get the first one.
MR. DANDAR: We’re going to object. If he
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plays the video that they would like to play from the Boston picket, I demand that they play the whole video so that you, Judge, can see what Mr. Prince was responding to in that very vile video that you may have already seen.
You only saw their version of it. There is like two, three, four minutes of extremely vile language coming from ministers of the Church of Scientology to bull bait Mr. Prince into responding the way he did on video. So if they are
going to do that, they need to play the whole thing.MR. WEINBERG: That is not the one I’m playing, first of all —
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: — to make it easy. Secondly, if he wants to do something later, he can.
THE COURT: There is a rule of completeness which we’ll get into when we get to trial. At a trial, if somebody will try to pick and choose, I’m probably going to insist on the rule of completeness in an appropriate case.
But in this hearing, if they play something and you think I need to see it all, make a little note, tell them to keep it there and play the whole thing on redirect.
632
MR. DANDAR: All right.
THE COURT: Or ask them if they’ll play it all.
If they say no, then you play it.
MR. DANDAR: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: Now, this is a video in front of the Ft. Harrison on November 30, 1998.
______________________________________
(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“You want to see the other side of the sign, too? Just want to make sure you get all of the information, all of the data.
“Tell David I’m coming with a dick so big, I’m gonna knock his goddamn spine out cuz I’m black. I got a big dick. I’m black. I got a big dick.
“Hey. Hey. Didn’t that guy have curly hair? (Inaudible.)
“No. No. Jesse. Yo momma. I been fucking your momma a long time (inaudible). That’s why you got that curly hair.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you recognize yourself, Mr.~Prince?
A Yes, I do.
Q You recognize Mr. Minton?
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A Yes, I do.
Q And you thought that was funny? Your statement about Mr. Miscavige?
A Yes, I did.
Q You don’t consider that a threat?
A No, I don’t.
Q You think it is appropriate for an expert, or anybody, for that matter, but particularly an expert on — supposedly on religion to be in front of the Ft. Harrison to be making obscene statements about David Miscavige like that to other — to Scientologists?
A You know, I think there was an indiscretion that happened there, certainly.
Q And you consider it harassment for you and Mr. Prince — and Mr. Minton and others to be holding signs like the one you were holding, “Lisa, blood on her hands,”and the one Mr. Minton was holding about the Third Reich, do you consider that harassment to be walking in front of the mecca of Scientology? Do you consider that to be harassment?
A I consider it to be exercising my constitutional right —
Q Okay.
A — as a citizen of America.
MR. WEINBERG: Want to play the next one,
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please? Actually, let me — go ahead.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played. No audio available.)
MR. WEINBERG: This is on the same day in front of the Criminal Court Complex.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, do you remember this being the day of the arraignment in the criminal case and do you remember being in front of the complex with Stacy Brooks, Bob Minton, Ken Dandar, Dr. Garko and yourself? Do you remember that photo?
A I remember that photo.
Q And do you recognize that as the criminal complex in Clearwater?
A The one on 49th Street?
Q Yes.
A Yes, I do.
Q And who took that photo?
A You know, I’m not sure.
Q And do you think that is funny? “Scientology, Hubbard Third Reich,” do you think that is funny?
A You know, I think those people in that picture are exercising their constitutional rights.
Q Do you think it is appropriate for the trial team of Mr. Dandar, Dr. Garko and you and Ms. Brooks, along with
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Mr. Minton, to be standing in front of a public building holding signs like that?
MR. DANDAR: Objection.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you think that is appropriate?
MR. DANDAR: Objection. Mr. Minton is not part of any trial team.
THE COURT: He said “and Mr. Minton.” So I’m assuming he was excluding him.
MR. WEINBERG: That is what I did.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you consider that to be appropriate behavior?
A I consider that unless I’m committing a crime, I’m exercising my constitutional rights as an American citizen.
Q Do you believe that that constitutes harassment of the Church of Scientology?
A No, I don’t. I think if I was doing anything illegal, Scientology would have had me arrested on the spot.
Q Okay.
THE COURT: Harassment is not illegal. I guess what he’s trying to ask you is, in addition to exercising your First Amendment rights, did you consider that that might be considered harassment?
THE WITNESS: You know, and I — my answer again is no. My answer is I’m exercising my
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constitutional rights as an American citizen.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You wouldn’t consider that picket —
MR. WEINBERG: Can you put that photo back up?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Somebody asked you — I think Mr. Dandar asked you whether or not he was ever on a picket.
THE COURT: Now, Counselor, in all fairness, that is a picture, that is not a picket. What we saw before —
MR. WEINBERG: I understand. I was asking to ask him. This is a picture.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q My question is what was going on with these signs in front of the Clearwater courthouse? What were you-all doing with these signs?
A I think we had been picketing earlier.
THE COURT: Was Mr. Dandar with you when you were picketing?
THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. Neither was Mr. Garko.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And whose idea was it to pose for this picture?
A I don’t know. I don’t recall. I don’t remember.
Q I mean, no one forced you-all to do this.
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Correct?
A Correct.
MR. WEINBERG: Go to the next one, please.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“You work for a criminal organization. And they’re going to be found out. You take that and put it on the camera and run it to Miscavige, your leader, your guru. He’s going down.”
(End of playing of video tape.)
______________________________________
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, that was right outside the Clearwater Bank building where all the people go in to eat. Correct?
A Yes. It was.
Q And right down the street, as you look down the street, is where the LMT offices were?
A That is correct.
Q All right. And do you consider that to be a threat to Mr. Miscavige where you say he’s going down?
A No, I do not. And I think I have to — you know, because this is just a little snippet you are showing here, I think I should give the situation that was occurring.
On that very street that you saw me in front of where the Lisa McPherson Trust is around the corner, on that
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particular day I had gone to a shop on Cleveland to buy a pack of cigarettes and go back to the office.
From the moment I walked out of my office, all of the way up to the door of the shop I went to and all of the way back, a Scientology OSA person had a camera on me like this (indicating).
I was annoyed. If that is a crime, find me guilty.
Q Now, was that your purpose when you say, “You’re going down,” was your purpose to get rid of Mr. Miscavige from being the chairman of the board or the ecclesiastical leader of Scientology?
A My purpose was to express my annoyance.
Q And “guru,” were you just being funny?
A Again, my purpose was to express my annoyance.
Q Now, was that your agenda? Strike that.
Was it Mr. Minton’s agenda — was part of his agenda to get rid of David Miscavige?
A You had Mr. Minton up here —
Q I’m just asking you.
A — Mr. Weinberg, forever, you know.
Q I’m asking you.
A He never said that to me. He never said that to me.
THE COURT: There is an answer in the
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courtroom. It is called “I don’t know.” If it is —
A He never — no, he never said that to me.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you described you, Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton as the A team, right?
A Correct.
Q And the A team got formed in the summer of 1998?
A I would say — Mmm — thereabouts.
Q Right. And the A team continued to be —
A Maybe — wait a minute. I misspoke about that because that A team business didn’t come up until after — after we’d worked together for a while and had done things.
And that concept came out — in the summer of ’98 is when I first met them, so I think it would be a misrepresentation to say that the A team was in the summer of ’98, at least to my best recollection as I sit here today.
Q So when was it?
A And I can’t be sure. It was sometime later.
Q When you said it became the A team after you had done things, what kind of things? Are you talking about like — do you mean like pickets and sending postings and things like that? Are those the things that you were doing?
A I think more like helping people directly.
Q Helping people?
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A Yes.
Q How was Mr. Minton helping people, by standing and holding signs like that?
A Well, you know, I guess there is a myriad of answers for that. But what I meant to say, helping people, I meant helping people that had run into problems with Scientology and were not able to resolve them so that they can get on with their lives.
Q Now, where did the A team concept come from?
A You know, I think there used to be a television program.
Q Are you talking about the one with Mr. T?
A If you let me finish. You know, the reason why I can’t answer that question, because when those television series were going on, I was in the Sea Org and we weren’t allowed to watch TV. So I have a big missing section in my life with serial programs and things like that.
So again I’ll say there was some program that had the A team on it. And I think Mr. Minton brought it up and — but —
Q And —
A — but I have never seen a program called the A team or anything like that.
Q When you said the A team yesterday, what did you mean, A team? What was it that the A team was doing?
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A The A team was myself, Bob and Stacy. And the A team were helping people that needed help to resolve issues with Scientology.
You know, just to — to show how far at the other end of the spectrums were, Mr. Minton actually thought he was helping Scientology by helping these people resolve issues with Scientology.
Q Do you remember speaking to the media about bringing Mr. Miscavige down?
A No. I do not.
MR. WEINBERG: Play that next one, please.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“It takes standing up and recognizing it for what it is, a dead, arcane idea. We’re dealing with people who are ignorant and we’re going to bring them down.”
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you remember that?
A I object to that very — I can’t object, but that was an obvious edit where you sliced two things together.
And I think you are mis-characterizing a speech that I gave for a vigil for Lisa McPherson where the press was there. I was not speaking for the press. I was speaking to former Scientologists.
642
Q Were you talking about bringing down Scientology?
Is that what you were talking about?
MR. DANDAR: We object and ask the whole thing be played.
THE COURT: I think that is fair.
MR. WEINBERG: It was a newscast, we didn’t — we can play the whole newscast. It takes a minute.
THE COURT: I don’t want the whole newscast.
Just whatever Mr. Prince said.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, that is what Mr. Prince said. That is all he said is what we just played.
THE COURT: Well, it did look like there was a definite splice.
MR. WEINBERG: There was. One of these newscasts where the reporter said something and Stacy Brooks said something and he said the first thing on there, Mr. Prince, then somebody else said something, then he said the last thing.
We took the two things Mr. Prince said and put it together. But we can play the whole section.
THE COURT: It makes it look like he said all that together, and it may not have been.
I think if what it is you are trying to do is every time he said we’re going to bring him down, what is it you mean when you say that?
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THE WITNESS: Expose — expose what is actually going on.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: You know, expose the fact that private investigators are being used to terrorize citizens because they disagree with Scientology.
Expose the fact that someone gave $100,000, and it is Scientology’s policy, if you don’t use a service that you paid for, they will refund it to you.
THE COURT: Normally, when you want to say we’re going to expose somebody, you don’t say expose somebody, you say bring them down, that kind of means put them out of business. That is what I mean by that. What did you mean by it?
THE WITNESS: I mean ending the criminal activity. Ending the assault of citizens who have no way to protect themselves once they get on the bad side of Scientology.
THE COURT: When you say “We are going to bring you down,” this is your testimony, you did not mean put the Church of Scientology out of business, do away with the Church?
THE WITNESS: Right, in the illegal activities. I never had a — as I said, corrupt activities wasn’t even anything in my mind during the majority
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of my stay in Scientology. These are things that I learned about after I got to Gilman, Hot Springs, and started working directly for Mr. Hubbard and Mr. Miscavige. I was an ignorant, blind person to it prior to that time.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q When you said in that newscast that I just played, quote, “It takes standing up and recognizing it for what it is, a dead, arcane idea,” that was how you — that — you were expressing your opinion about Scientology, that is what
you meant by that, isn’t it?A No. You have taken this out of context because I don’t know what “It is.” You showed me a little snippet. I don’t know what you’re talking about.
THE COURT: I don’t, either.
MR. WEINBERG: I have the transcript. We’ll play the whole tape because we are obviously not going to get done today.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q But — it was a response to a question, “Today they spoke out against the Church of Scientology,” and then they play what you said about it. But we’ll play the whole thing. It takes about a minute. All right.
You remember going on several trips to Europe with Mr. Minton, correct?
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A I think I went on a couple of trips with Mr. Minton.
Q All right. He paid for the trips?
A Correct.
Q Who else went with you?
A You know, as a matter of fact, I only traveled to Europe with Mr. Minton one time.
Q And the purpose of that trip was?
A To visit with his business partner, Jeff Schmidt, to have a face-to-face with him to find out specifically what Scientology-hired private investigator David Lee was doing to try to get him to a — do a similar thing as Bob and Stacy, basically turn against Bob and provide criminal information so Scientology could use it to attack Bob Minton.
Q Now, do you remember being in Germany with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks in or about June of 2000?
A I think I was in Leipzig, Germany.
Q And Mr. Minton paid for that trip?
A I think that trip was paid by the Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q So in June of 2000 you were on the payroll of the Lisa McPherson Trust at that point?
A Correct.
Q You had just gone on the payroll?
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A You know, I can’t remember.
Q And do you remember — you remember being in the DB lounge?
THE COURT: What is that?
A Yes.
THE COURT: What is a DB lounge?
MR. WEINBERG: It is a bar of some sort.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Correct?
A We were at a train station in Leipzig, and there was a bar called the DB Bar, which we thought was amusing because DB means something very specific in Scientology, it means degraded being.
Q And you were there with Ms. Caberta, we heard about, the German government official that works against Scientology, right?
A Correct.
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll play this clip here. This is something turned over to us by the Lisa McPherson Trust.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Okay, so — so, Stacy, you start. DM, this drink’s for you.
“DM, this is a special toast to you coming
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straight from the DB Lounge in Leipzig, Germany.
“I’m not going to call this guy DM anymore. Remember what my new name for David Miscavige is, the former ecclesiastical leader of the Church of Scientology.
“I know this is going on camera.
“I know, but what did I say — (inaudible).
“Yes — yes, this is — this is a toast to David Miscavige, also known as Pope David I, from the DB lounge in Leipzig, Germany. Up, up, up and away.
“Now, Ursula.
“Hi, Mr. Miscavige. We did a great work here in Germany. And we will finish Scientology soon.
“This is to you, Miscavige. We are so thankful that you give us reason to live. Salute.
“Pope David I. Cheers.
“Cheers.
“Just some DBs hanging out here.
“David I.
(Inaudible.)
“This is to David Miscavige in the DB Lounge in Leipzig, Germany at the train station.
“Pope David I.
“Cheers, Miscavige.
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“Rear Admiral.
(Inaudible.)
“Listen, listen, just —
“No, just stop here now. Now listen.
“We all know in Grady’s deposition, when Grady was deposing David Miscavige, that he went ballistic over the thought of Graham —
“Now —
“– of Graham Berry spending time –”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Does that bring back memories, Mr. Prince?
A Yes.
Q And you think that is funny?
A Well, what I think you have is a home video of our trip in Europe that was never made public — Mmm — to anyone. And we were just having fun. Yes, I do think it was funny. We were just having fun at the train station.
Q Does that man, Mr. Minton, look like the most harassed person on the face of the earth?
A He does, to me.
Q And when Ms. Caberta, the German official who has — who flew over here and who is working against Scientology, when she said, “We’re going to finish
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Scientology,” she was talking about getting rid of it, wasn’t she?
A No. I think she was specifically talking about Scientology isn’t viewed as a religion in Germany.
Scientology is viewed as a political group. The reason Scientology is viewed as a political group —
THE COURT: I don’t need to know that.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: I don’t need to know, care, what is going on in Germany.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q When you talk about the reason for living, when you-all were talking about, you know, David Miscavige gives us a reason to — a reason for living — reason to live for, talking about so that you can malign him, is that what
you-all are talking about?A No. Not at all.
Q And do you remember — it was cut off at the end.
Do you remember that — that at that point, Mr. — Mr. Minton said something very obscene about Mr. Miscavige?
A I do not remember that. But, again, I’ll state that this was a video that we made on our trip that was a private video, never made public, never put on the Internet, and it is being exploited here today.
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Q Well, it sort of gives you a different impression about what you-all were about, doesn’t it?
A Who is you-all?
Q Excuse me?
A Who are you talking about, you-all? What you-all were about. What are you talking about?
Q You, Ms. Brooks, Mr. Minton?
A The —
Q The A team?
A I didn’t get that impression.
Q Now, who took that video, this home video that ended up in the LMT on this trip that was financed by the LMT?
A I think Mr. Bunker.
Q So he was there, too, obviously? Was anybody else on this trip? You have the A team, you have Mr. Bunker. Is there anybody else on it?
A Not that I specifically recall.
Q And you-all thought the DB was kind of funny because that is a Scientology term?
A Correct.
Q Now, after looking at your obscenities in front of the Ft. Harrison about Mr. Miscavige, watching this toast, you still think that he would be your friend? Wasn’t that your testimony this morning?
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A You know, I’m talking to a camera there. The answer to your question is yes, I think that if he and I sat down and actually had a discussion, we would certainly find friendship, would be able to communicate.
I mean, isn’t Scientology all about helping people learn —
THE COURT: That didn’t really answer the question. You have that opinion and that is fine. Then that is the answer to the question.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You talk about counseling. The principal purpose of the LMT, when it moved into Clearwater, was for the A team and the people that were working for the A team to picket and harass Scientology, wasn’t it?
A That is incorrect beyond belief.
Q Okay. Now —
A I would like to explain that, if I could. I would like to explain why the LMT came here, since you brought it up, and if you would allow me to just fully answer the question.
Q So you were involved in the —
THE COURT: I’m going to let him answer the question. What was the purpose of the LMT that — what do you believe the purpose of the LMT was?
THE WITNESS: The purpose of the LMT —
THE COURT: Fifty words or less.
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THE WITNESS: Okay, fifty words or less, and I won’t talk too fast for the court reporter.
THE COURT: That is 25.
THE WITNESS: When Lisa McPherson left that hotel, she had no place to go. She had a minor accident, stripped off her clothes, told people that she needed help. She ended up back in the Ft. Harrison. Seventeen days later, she was dead.
The reason that Lisa McPherson came to Clearwater and the reason it was there, in case there was another instance where someone needed a safe place to go where they could come and get help.
That is why we were there. And that is the only reason we were there.
And those were the dying wishes of Fannie McPherson, Lisa McPherson’s mother, when she was on her deathbed.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So all of this picketing which happened on a regular basis, correct —
A Incorrect.
Q Well, can you, like, give us an estimate of the number of times you participated in a picket against the Church of Scientology?
A Yes, I can. Let me think. Because I certainly
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remember the first one well enough. I think I have probably been involved in maybe six or seven pickets.
Q So in the —
THE COURT: Over what periods of time, Mr. Prince?
THE WITNESS: From 1998 to the present.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So in a four-year picket —
THE COURT: Four-year period. Not picket.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Right, I have picket on the brain. In the four-year period, you say you only picketed six times?
A I roughly estimated six or seven times that I picketed, yes.
Q And do you have a sense of how many times Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton picketed in that four-year period?
A I do not.
Q A lot more than six?
A I believe so.
THE COURT: He said he didn’t know.
MR. WEINBERG: I believe he just said “I believe so.”
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, in Clearwater there were other people in the
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LMT that participated in pickets, including Peter Alexander, correct?
A Yes.
Q Patricia Greenway?
A Yes.
Q Frank Oliver?
A I — I can’t say that I have ever seen Frank Oliver carrying a sign, picketing.
Q So you are not aware he picketed?
A Correct.
Q Of course Minton — of course, the A team, right?
A You know, I think Stacy herself maybe picketed maybe five or six times, as well. But then she didn’t do it anymore because it was not anything she agreed with, nor did she feel it was effective in handling the problem that we
were dealing with.Q Well, let me ask you this. Do you remember that on September 2, 1998 you and Mr. Minton participated in a picket in Boston at the Boston Airport?
A At the Boston Airport? We — I think you have that in complete reverse. Scientologists picketed us at the airport.
Q Do you have signs, “Scientology, The Third Reich”?
A Do I have signs?
Q Did you-all, you and/or Mr. Minton?
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A Mmm, it’s a possibility. I don’t know.
Q In September of ’98 did you and Mr. Minton picket in front of the Church of Scientology in Boston?
A That is possible.
Q Well, that is when he was actually arrested for assault and battery. Right?
A Correct.
Q In October of 1998 did you picket with Mr. Minton in front of the Church of Scientology in Boston?
A It’s possible.
Q You remember several pickets in Boston in October of ’98 with one of Mr. — one with Mr. Minton and one with Ms. Brooks?
A I don’t remember that specifically, no.
THE COURT: Tell me why we have to spend so much times on these pickets.
MR. WEINBERG: Because, your Honor, it — it — it demonstrates — first of all, it puts the lie to what we’ve heard all of the way through —
THE COURT: But I know that this man has been involved in pickets.
MR. WEINBERG: It is way beyond that, your Honor. I mean, really —
THE COURT: Pardon?
MR. WEINBERG: It is way beyond that. You have
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before you a harassment time line. And Mr. Dandar has spent literally 28 days suggesting that somehow Mr. Minton was harassed to the point where — where, for reasons that don’t make any sense to me, for that purpose he would come in and incriminate himself.
And the fact is — we’re not playing all of the pickets. But when you see these clips, most of which we got from the Lisa McPherson Trust in these videos that were just turned over, you will see what was really — what was happening here in Clearwater.
THE COURT: I have no doubt that at the LMT Trust they had very little use, if any, for the Church of Scientology. And they picketed them fairly regularly. Quite frankly, if they had fallen on their face, they wouldn’t have cared; that they were out, in essence, to undo what they perceived to be the bad things that they perceived the Church of Scientology did. I don’t have any doubt about that.
I think the record is clear. So I don’t know why we keep going over those things.
There are things that are really critical to this hearing. And I don’t think those are it.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean —
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THE COURT: It might be important to the counterclaim, but not to this hearing.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, if you rely on, for example, what Peter Alexander said, he said he didn’t have anything — or essentially nothing to do with it. You’ll see essentially the opposite.
You have heard that somehow Mr. Minton was harassed. And you’re going to see what was really going on, that the Church was harassed beyond comprehension.
THE COURT: I have no doubt Mr. Minton harassed the Church, as well as the Church harassed Mr. Minton. It is just that simple.
MR. WEINBERG: But nothing is more — well, can I proceed with my cross-examination?
THE COURT: Yes. You may.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You went on the Internet, as well, didn’t you?
A I have been on the Internet. Yes, I have.
Q You made postings on the Internet?
A Yes, I have.
Q In that Leipzig toast you — instead of using the name “David Miscavige,” you actually said “Miss Cabbage,” didn’t you? That was a little joke, wasn’t it?
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A Did I say that?
Q I’m asking you.
A I thought I said “Miscavige.”
MR. DANDAR: I think we need to hear the video, rather than someone’s transcript.
MR. WEINBERG: I’m going to show you a posting.
THE COURT: In a posting we have heard him called Rear Admiral. We know what that means. And we know they called him Miss Cabbage. And they don’t speak kindly of David Miscavige.
MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. And I’m going to show him, have him identify, his Internet postings.
A I will admit — I have said that before, Miss Cabbage. I just don’t know that — if that is what you are seeing there.
MR. WEINBERG: Could I stand up here with Mr. Prince?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. WEINBERG: I have no other copies.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea what this is.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q This is your postings, isn’t it?
A Excuse me?
Q This is your postings?
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A I don’t think so. I think it is a fictitious document created —
Q So you didn’t send a posting that said:
“Too bad, Little Miss Cabbage has a corncob up your ass, 724365. I know the feeling. That is why I have him reeling, spending money like a bitch kicked from a pimp. Roll on, ho, big daddy can see you. Jesse.”
A Yes, correct. But that is a fictitious document that was created for the purpose of — to malign me.
Q To malign you?
A Yes.
Q But you have used Miss Cabbage?
A Yes, I’ll admit it. Freely admit it.
MR. DANDAR: Objection. This does not have the normal E-Mail headers on it that you would find if it was an original document, instead of something that someone altered.
A I don’t even know who Robert is.
THE COURT: I don’t know. If he can’t authenticate that, I don’t know whether — I don’t know whether it is in or not. At the top it says
“Spread the word, bitch.”
Then it goes on to some other comments. And that is not the way an E-Mail normally —
MR. WEINBERG: It is not an E-Mail. It’s a
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posting.
THE COURT: Well, the same thing. I don’t know. It would seem like this Jesse Prince, Jesse77@GTE.net would be Mr. Prince’s — that would be — is that what you go by?
THE WITNESS: I had that in 1998, I think, when I had a particular type of computer, I used to have that address. But as I sit here today, I don’t know what name — the name Robert.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Well, when you use the word “Miss Cabbage,” what do you mean?
MR. DANDAR: Objection. That is not his E-Mail.
THE COURT: No, he admitted that he has called David Miscavige Miss Cabbage.
A It’s an obvious derogatory use of Miscavige.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And derogatory in — I mean, in what context did you use it when you used it?
A I don’t remember. I just know that — you know —
I have said that before. I admit to it.
Q Now, let me show you — see if you recognize this posting. Or is this another fictitious one?
MR. WEINBERG: What will this be?
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THE CLERK: 219.
MR. DANDAR: What exhibit number is that?
MR. WEINBERG: 219.
THE COURT: The one before that was 2-what?
MR. WEINBERG: 218.
THE COURT: That did not come in because —
MR. WEINBERG: He said he couldn’t authenticate it.
THE COURT: So that is not in evidence. That is Number 218. This one you just gave us is 219?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did you make that posting?
A Yes, I did.
Q And do you consider that to be a — a posting that would indicate a derogatory view toward Mr. Miscavige and the religion of Scientology?
A Mmm, I think that this posting is a result of the Scientology operations being run on me.
While I’m trying to testify in a court in front of a judge in Denver, Scientology hired a prostitute, had a deep undercover agent, Laura Terepin, working on me, helping me with the deposition, saying there are people other than
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who they are. You know, this is an annoyance response to what had been happening to me. You see I clearly speak about private investigators following me.
In Denver, very strange things happened.
Q What do you mean, they hired a prostitute?
A A prostitute.
You know, this guy from Denver — there was a private investigative agency in Denver that was watching me. He brought a woman who said it was his sister, who was a whore. She got a room directly across the street from my — not across the street, across the hall from my room in the hotel that I was staying in.
And when I came out — and she was a beautiful woman, you know. “Oh, can you help me get my key,” on and on and start this conversation.
This guy says, “This is my sister. We’re just in town.”
Suitable guise. Mr. Sharp will explain it to you. And they started this whole routine of, “Come on. Party with us tonight. We’ve got drugs, we have this. We’ve got whatever.”
I’m supposed to testify. I literally had to get rid of them.
The other person, Laura Terepin was — her real name wasn’t Laura Terepin.
Jolie Steckart, specifically paid by Scientology
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to infiltrate Mr. Dan Leipold’s office as I sat there writing my declaration for his case.
It was these kind of things that annoyed me, and I would write these things.
Q So when this hooker came to your room, you told her to leave?
A Yes.
Q Or did you —
A We were at the bar. And then she wanted to come to the room. I’m like, “No, I have to testify.”
Q But I think you testified previously that she actually — you let her come to your room and you did something with her. Right?
A No. I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I — I think that you are fabricating that.
Q Now, when you say in the first sentence: “It seems some people (Miscavige) just don’t have the guts to quit when it’s over,” what did you mean by that?
A What I meant specifically by that is that I came into the case — the FACTNet case — Scientology had brought an action against FACTNet for copyright — certain copyright violations.
And — Mmm — I — I remember vividly the whole issue of copyrights in Scientology. I have given a — a detailed affidavit about it.
But the fact of the matter is the copyrights — or
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at least some of them — were completely bogus. And the filings of the copyrights were filed under false premises.
I did an affidavit against that concerning that — concerning that naming specifically the people that were involved. Another officer, staff member, Pat Brice, was involved, because after Mr. Miscavige dismantled the Guardian’s Office, there was always a section in Scientology, according to its own policy, to register trademarks and copyrights all of the time.
Q That is what you meant —
A Excuse me I’m still talking. And they let that lapse a period of time. So you had a large section of materials that they claim copyright protection for which, in fact, they did not have. And I was able to identify what that was.
Q So that is what you meant when you said, “When it’s over, they just don’t have the guts to know when it’s over”?
A Correct. They submit false documents to the Court. I point out to the Court that the documents are false and show them how, is specifically what I mean there.
Q The third paragraph, the last sentence, where you say: “Can’t you just –” talking about Miscavige now, “Can’t you just take it like a man? Soon you’ll be in a place where you’ll be taking it like a man regularly,” that
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is sort of like the Miss Cabbage thing, you’re talking about him being in jail and sexually assaulted?
A I’m talking about him being incarcerated for being involved in criminal activity.
THE COURT: Was this a posting to David Miscavige, or somebody else?
THE WITNESS: No. It was that newsgroup, alt.religion.scientology.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Let me show you another one. You did hundreds of these things?
A I don’t think so.
Q You just felt compelled, as an expert, to go on this alt.religion.scientology and say obscene things about David Miscavige?
A At the time of these writings, I was not operating — I don’t think I was — I don’t know. I don’t remember. I don’t think I was an expert in this — I think I came in here in December of ’99 when —
THE COURT: I mean, there are people that learn things from this case. Mr. Prince, if you are going to ever testify in another case, you ought to learn not to post things on an Internet, especially not to be involved in vulgar demonstrations. They’ll always come back to haunt you in a court proceeding.
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Just like I hope Mr. Dandar learned, whether you call it picket or vigil, if you are a lawyer, you ought not to be there.
There are certain things you need to have learned. I hope you learned that.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, that is a true statement. I have learned that from Judge Moody. He taught me quite a bit about how I needed to act in relationship to this.
And you are right, I have had some indiscretions. All right, if we need to talk about that, we will.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I showed you what I marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 220. Do you see that, Mr. Prince?
A Yes, I do.
Q Do you remember writing that open letter to David Miscavige?
A Uh-huh.
THE COURT: That is a yes?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I’m sorry. Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And — and this is when you are definitely involved as an expert, you already worked on Wollersheim, you already reviewed the PC folders for Mr. Dandar.
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Correct?
A Quite possibly I’ll agree with you there.
Q And so you say in the first paragraph: “How desperate you must feel. If you sit quietly and listen carefully, you will hear it.”
MR. DANDAR: Objection. I need to have the question asked of the witness to identify this document and make sure it is his.
MR. WEINBERG: He just did.
A This is my document. Yes.
MR. DANDAR: It doesn’t have headers on it. That is all.
THE COURT: Well, he has identified it, so —
MR. DANDAR: All right.
A Yes.
THE COURT: You are introducing this?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I am.
THE COURT: It will be received.
MR. WEINBERG: And I —
THE COURT: Honestly, I’ll tell you the same thing, I don’t need you to read it to me. If there is some part you want to point to —
MR. WEINBERG: Really, the first paragraph and last paragraph.
THE COURT: Okay.
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A Yes, I wrote — I wrote the first paragraph, all of the paragraphs in the middle, all of the way to the end.
And I think if you read this whole thing, you’ll see that I’m upset, I’m very peeved over the fact on Page 2, second paragraph, that —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I didn’t ask about Page 2. I asked about the first paragraph. That is all I asked you.
A Oh, okay.
Q And the last paragraph. You wrote that, where you quote the Bible?
A Correct.
Q And the reason for quoting this passage from Revelations about “Avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth” was what?
A Well, you know, if you know this passage, these are the saints that died for righteousness but evil and corruption carries on. And when the fifth seal is opened, biblically speaking, the saints’ blood will be avenged.
This is specifically what I’m talking about. And how this relates to Miscavige and Scientology is the corruption — the agonizing activity that I had to go through to deal with my children, my father, old girlfriends, Scientology did their noisy investigation on me.
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I wish I would have had this document when Mr. Dandar was asking me do you remember noisy investigations. They ran around to my entire family. I had to go to Chicago, I had to go to Minneapolis, to Memphis, Tennessee, to deal with friends and associates and family as a result of Scientology doing their, quote/unquote, noisy investigation, spreading lies and false information about me.
THE COURT: Are you done with Number 220? We need to take our break.
MR. WEINBERG: We offer 220. And I do also offer 219, the one before that.
THE COURT: That will be received, too. And we’ll go ahead and take our afternoon break. It is 25 after. A 20-minute break.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
(WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 3:25 to 3:50.)
______________________________________THE COURT: You may continue.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. At the break I had one more of these things I was going to mark. I’ll go on. That is 221.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, Mr. Prince, do you recognize Defense Exhibit 221 as a posting which you made on or about August 6 of
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1998?
A If you’ll give me just one minute —
Q Sure.
A — to review this document, please, I’ll indicate it for you.Okay, yes. I do remember this document.
MR. WEINBERG: All right. I’ll offer this, your Honor. I have a couple questions to ask on it.
THE COURT: All right. It will be received.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, this is one of the first postings you made after you had joined the ranks of working against Scientology, correct?
A I would hardly characterize it as that. But this is one of the first postings that I made on the Internet concerning Scientology. Yes.
Q All right. Now, in that first paragraph you say, second sentence: “You know, I just can’t refer to Scientology as a church in any way. It would be an insult to all religions.” Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q And that is how you feel today, isn’t it?
A You know, it is not. And I can explain to you why.
Q You don’t need to.
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A Okay. Then I have answered the question.
Q So you think it’s a church?
A Correct.
Q So you just sent this out of some hatred?
MR. DANDAR: Objection. He didn’t want him to explain it. Now he’s asking him. So let the man explain his answer.
THE COURT: Well, I think that was a different question. And I think that Mr. Prince is capable of answering that question, then I think he can explain it.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You sent this out of some hatred for Scientology?
A Mmm, no, sir.
Q Now, if you go to the fourth paragraph where it says, I quote:
“The bottom line is that the hierarchy of Scientology is composed of people who are very, very, very mentally ill, sick people of the worst sort. Why? Because they are sick and don’t know it. In all honesty, I hope to reach them so they can wake up and start getting well like I have and others have.”
You wrote that, right?
A Correct.
Q Wasn’t that what you have, in essence, been doing for the last four years, trying to get rid of the hierarchy
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of Scientology, including David Miscavige?
A You know, that is not exactly what I say here, to get rid of those people. I said I hope that I could reach them so that they can wake up and start getting well themselves.
Q Now, you — the truth is, isn’t it, Mr. Prince, that you and Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, the A team, had a ball with regard to all this picketing you-all participate in over the last four years?
A I’m sorry, I hardly can agree to that, Mr. Weinberg. I wouldn’t call it a ball.
Q You had a lot of fun doing it, wouldn’t you say?
A I wouldn’t say that either, Mr. Weinberg.
Q You remember the first time that you went to New Hampshire and — and — and encountered picketing in New Hampshire?
A Yes, when Scientologists came in and picketed Mr. Minton’s home.
Q Right. And that was on Mr. Minton’s — that was on Ms. Brooks’ harassment time line. Right?
A It very well could have been. Sure.
Q And do you remember that you were there with Mr. Minton and that you-all were laughing and giggling and making fun of the Scientologists, the few that came by in the cars? You called it a drive-by —
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A The picketers, yes, it was amusing because the Scientologists came by and stood in the road with their signs, and it is quite a narrow road up in New Hampshire, there aren’t sidewalks where Mr. Minton lives. So a state trooper came and asked them not to stand in the road because it was dangerous. It was actually kind of a blind curve by Mr. Minton’s house that makes it dangerous, being there are no sidewalks.
And what was particularly amusing about what the Scientologists resorted to at that point is that they — Mmm — went around and pulled their cars way back, then took their picket signs out the window, because they were too big to stick through the window, and they held them outside of the car and drove back and forth. I thought that was pretty pathetic.
Q And you and Mr. Minton had anti-Scientology signs, correct?
A Mr. Minton had signs.
Q You did, too?
A No. I never owned a picket sign myself.
Q You never held a picket sign?
A I never owned —
Q I didn’t ask you whether you owned it.
A I’m sorry.
Q You had a sign. There were signs there that you
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and Mr. Minton had, correct? Anti-Scientology signs?
A That may or may not be correct. I don’t specifically recall.
Q All right. Do you remember doing a posting with regard to that incident that appears on the harassment time line?
A I do. But — but, Mr. Weinberg, I have to say this because, you know, you selectively are taking paragraphs out of these things and you are painting a picture here.
But really what this is about is — this last thing you handed me is about trying to help these people. I’m telling the story about something that happened to Marty Rathbun, something that might have had a psychological
impact on him that he would need help resolving.Q But that wasn’t my question. All my question was, you did another posting about this incident which appears on Mr. Minton’s harassment time line in front of his house in 1998. Correct?
A You know, I need that time line right here. I mean, I’m saying it’s possible. But if you want to pull it out, you want to show me what you’re talking about, I think I can answer the question better.
Thank you.
MR. WEINBERG: Marked as 222.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You can identify this as your posting, can you not, Mr. Prince?
A Yes.
Q And in the second paragraph you say, “Bob and Jesse quickly helped with the pilot and started bullbaiting the protesters.”
When you say bullbaiting, that would suggest that you were, what, holding signs or doing something back?
A No. Bullbaiting is a term that is used in Scientology specifically to designate some of their training routines. The training routines are called TRs; TRs for short.
Part of the training routine is to be able to sit across from a person without flinching and without moving when the person makes gestures or tries to do something shocking; in other words, this is a routine to train you to keep your countenance during an adverse commission, I guess.
Q In here you said, “We had great fun”?
A Correct.
Q Now, do you know why this appeared on the harassment time line if it was so much fun?
A Well, you haven’t shown me that — and I have asked you, too, to show me on the time line. So I can’t answer these questions — you know, you are referring to
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something that I don’t have in front of me. I can’t see it.Q I thought from the testimony yesterday that you had reviewed the time line pretty closely?
THE COURT: Well, believe me, he has. It’s a very long thing. I think it’s a fair request. If you want him to specifically note whether it is on the time line or not, show him the time line.
MR. WEINBERG: I will.
THE COURT: My recollection is that document was extremely long.
MR. DANDAR: It is. And, Judge, I object to 222 because there has definitely been editing done. Right after “barbecue” and before the word “soup,” something is taken out.
MR. WEINBERG: No, it is not. You knew exactly what it is.
THE WITNESS: Where is that at?
MR. DANDAR: Where it said, “You invited Minton for barbecue,” after “barbecue” there is a blank, then there is “soup.”
THE COURT: 222, you are talking about?
MR. DANDAR: Yes. Right here.
THE WITNESS: Second paragraph? Oh, yes, you are right. You are right. It has been edited.
Something has been deleted from there.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q What was there? Because we didn’t edit anything.
A Yes, maybe you didn’t, but your client did. And I know specifically why.
What it said, “We were having BT and cluster soup.” BT is part of the secret cosmology of the upper levels of Scientology. So this has been, in fact, edited.
MR. DANDAR: I object to it. It is an altered document.
MR. WEINBERG: Are you testifying, first of all?
MR. DANDAR: I’m objecting to it based on Mr. Prince’s testimony. It’s an altered document by the defendant.
MR. WEINBERG: He identified it before, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Dandar just indicated that it had been altered. And so if it now — I’ll ask you, Mr. Prince, is that the original document, or has it been altered?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, this has been altered. This is not the original.
THE COURT: If you have one that has not been altered, then it will be admissible.
MR. WEINBERG: First of all, we didn’t alter
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anything.
THE COURT: I didn’t say you did. But if — I mean, I’m happy to write in the original what was there if Mr. Prince remembers it and everybody agrees.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you remember what was there?
A I remember exactly what was there. It says we were having barbecue BTs and cluster soup. “BTs” and “clusters” are words Scientologists aren’t allowed to use outside of Scientology.
Q So it’s a derogatory thing?
A No, there is nothing derogatory about BTs and clusters. This is a reality – something they believe in.
Q Well, I —
A But they are sensitive to it, so they altered the document.
MR. DANDAR: And I would object. If there is any more altered documents, that they not attempt to use them, or tell you in advance.
THE COURT: You just heard counsel say he did not know or believe it had been altered. So be careful, though, when you look at your documents.
That does look like something is missing from there. But I do know on my own E-Mails sometimes they
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all get askew and don’t seem to line up right. I was on the Florida Supreme Court website looking up stuff on the death penalty cases. And all of a sudden they go and they just stop. So you can’t tell by looking.
MR. DANDAR: But this one —
THE COURT: That one does appear to be where there is something clearly missing. So —
MR. WEINBERG: It obviously was not what I was focusing on, BT and cluster soup. But with the record indicating what Mr. Prince was saying was there, I offer the exhibit.
THE COURT: Take the original back and write it in.
MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
THE COURT: And ask Mr. Prince if that is what he recalls it said and, if so, then we can admit it with that —
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll let him write it because I don’t know — I assume how to spell it but I’m not sure how to spell it.
THE COURT: BT , is that like two initials.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Here. Do it like this.
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THE COURT: Everybody make notations on your copies. Cluster is C-L-U-S-T-E-R.
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And the original has “BT” and that he wrote in.
THE COURT: Okay. That will be admitted.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you remember that at this —
A Excuse me.
Q I wanted to show you the harassment time line. Let me show you what has been previously marked as the harassment time line, the “Time Line of Scientology Harassment of Robert Minton and Colleagues.”
I show you the entry for September 7, 1998. It says: “Scientologists picketed Mr. Minton’s home in New Hampshire again but it was done in a car with picket signs held out of the car window.”
A Correct.
Q So that was the incident, right?
A Yes.
Q Now, I want to play this. This is that — you remember you-all videoed this?
A I don’t remember videoing the incident, but let’s see what you have got.
Here is your pen, by the way —
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______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Don’t block her sign now, Jesse. I’ve gotta get a picture of that good sign.
“Okay. Let me put mine up.
“Okay, yeah.
“Hey, Maureen, just out here having a little chat.
So did you see that last — “(Inaudible.) I don’t know. All I can say is when I was in your position, there was a lot of —
“That you’re a staunch Scientologist. And it’s dangerous for you to believe otherwise because you’d be wrong.”
______________________________________
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Those are Mr. Minton’s signs?
A Correct.
______________________________________“Drive-by pickets. That’s cool.”
______________________________________MR. DANDAR: Could we clarify the people in the car are Scientologists?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q They are, aren’t they, Mr. Prince?
A They are. OSA personnel.
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______________________________________“Damn dumb asses. I got ’em. See, what they need, what they need is like a — what they need — what they need is a chain — I mean a long line of cars.
“They just don’t seem to be able to get more than two —
“Yeah.
“– for these little New Hampshire things.
“Hey, it’s an hour from Boston, man.
“Ain’t it pathetic. One person holding one sign out the window. And then when they go by this way, the driver can’t do it so the fucking sign’s over there. Oh, my God. How pathetic.
“They must think this is having some kind of terrible psychological impact.
“Yes, it’s just entertaining as all hell.
“Here they come.
“Okay.
(Inaudible.)
“Hey, you fucking idiot.
“They don’t have enough nerve to try to run over me.
“Me, either. I stood there, too. I just stood in the middle of the road and got ’em driving up.
“Look at this. This is a good one.
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“Here they come again. That’s when they were coming earlier. That’s all I got of them so far, but the two of them are good.
“Yeah.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________MR. WEINBERG: That is it?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So you were having fun, you and Mr. Minton, in this thing on the harassment time line?
A Mmm, you know, Mr. Weinberg, I think even I said on that tape it was just an annoyance that they do it; though it was pathetic and though it was funny, it’s annoying. Now, you made a huge point about how harassed Scientology feels about being picketed. But when these people come by and picket, we’re supposed to be having fun. You can’t have it both ways.
Q Well, what do you call what they were doing, by the way? Do you call that harassment? Or do you call that the First Amendment?
A They were exercising their First Amendment rights.
But what happened that was harassing is that Bob and I didn’t have a clue they were even out there until they parked their cars, ran up to the door, knocked on the door
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screaming, “Minton, Minton, Minton,” then ran back to their cars. This is the only way they let us know they were there.
We are upstairs fooling around on the computers. These guys are banging on the doors. We wonder, what the heck. We run down. And we got the drive-by pickets going on.
Q They didn’t shout obscenities?
A Absolutely. “Where is your whore, Minton?” This kind of thing. Absolutely.
Q You didn’t hear that on the tape, though, did you?
A Well, of course not. Because what I’m speaking about is when they knocked on the door, and we were way in the back of the house. They wanted to make themselves known. Now, what they’re doing, going up and down there,
okay.Q Now, after this, after September of 1998, was this your first encounter with picketing, having signs and stuff like that?
A It could have been.
Q Now, after this, for the next — for the next four years, or almost four years, Mr. Minton and you and Ms. Brooks and other people affiliated with the Lisa McPherson Trust did all kinds of pickets in front of Scientology buildings, shouting obscenities, making threats,
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interfering with — with Scientologists going into their buildings and the like, didn’t you?
A That is categorically false.
MR. WEINBERG: Could you play the first tape, please. This is May 27 — this is again — this is the Lisa McPherson Trust.
______________________________________
(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Stick this in the right place. Scientology is a scam. A white meter. Fucking criminal. David Miscavige is a white Jew. He will be a convicted criminal.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, do you consider that harassment of the Church of Scientology? That was out in front of the church in Boston, wasn’t it?
A Yes. Was I there?
Q I’m asking you, do you consider that harassment?
MR. DANDAR: Objection. He’s not there. He should not be asked to comment about —
THE COURT: I think he can comment on that.
Overruled.
A You know, what I see there, that little snippet that you showed me, I would say yes, that is a bit annoying
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and harassing.
But I also suspect, because when Bob Minton would go out and picket, he would just be quiet, he wouldn’t say a word, he would just walk up and down the street.
But then the OSA people would come out, Maureen Garde, the person I was walking with in the previous video, they would come out and start talking to Mr. Minton about things from his therapy sessions.
This is where the therapy information started, in picketing the Boston org. And they would kind of whip him into a frenzy. And the whole idea was to bait Mr. Minton to make him look like an ass.
Well, you know, I agree everyone ended up looking like an ass on some of those things, but, you know, let’s put this in perspective, because these little snips aren’t going to work. These people were specifically targeting Mr. Minton to do psychological terrorism on him.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, is it a bit annoying that Mr. Minton said that L. Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige were wife beaters?
That is a bit annoying?
A And I’m sure he’s annoyed because Mrs. Maureen Garde started speaking to things about — from his confidential counseling sessions with Scientology.
How Scientology got that information, God only knows, because no one will ever speak on it, will they? But that is what was
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happening there.
Q And Mr. Minton, according to your testimony, was quiet on his pickets?
A He would just be as quiet as hell. Then if he got antagonized, he would start in. And I think that was known.
And, you know, you talk about me hating Scientologists. When you saw me in that first —
THE COURT: We’re well past the answer to that question.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: Play the next one, please.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Reform Scientology now. Don’t let David Miscavige destroy Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard would not approve of what David Miscavige has done.
“It’s safe to look. It’s safe to talk. Don’t let David Miscavige destroy the Church of Scientology. Make it something you can be proud of. Dump David Miscavige. Dump David Miscavige. It’s safe to talk. It’s safe to look. Don’t let David Miscavige destroy Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard would never approve of what Miscavige is doing. (Inaudible.)
“Reform Scientology now.
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“Don’t let the introspection rundown kill you. You don’t have to die in introspection rundown. You don’t have to let Miscavige scare you to death.
“Don’t be afraid.
“Don’t let Miscavige scare you out.
“It’s okay to confront the fact that Miscavige cannot handle some pressure.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You recognize that as people including Mr. Minton from the Lisa McPherson Trust, right where the Scientologists in Clearwater go to eat, right? That is where that was, wasn’t it?
A Yes, it was.
Q And that sure sounded like a direct attack on David Miscavige, didn’t it?
A Mmm, it sounded like there was definitely some problems with Miscavige being voiced there.
Q You saw Miss Greenway there, didn’t you?
A Yes.
Q You saw David Cecere from the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A Yes. I didn’t see me, though.
Q You were the vice-president of PR at the Lisa
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McPherson Trust, weren’t you?
A That is such a fabrication, it is laughable. I have never been — had anything to do with public relations, period. Can’t you tell?
Q So what was your position at the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A I was there specifically to help people who had been in — somehow had some gripe with Scientology that they wanted to make right.
And again I’ll say it. The work that we were doing at the Lisa McPherson Trust helped Scientology because you had a lot of garbage in the street, people that were hurt, people giving you a bad name.
When we finished with those people, they signed releases saying they wouldn’t speak disparagingly about you again, they got their money and they went on their way. Okay, that part needs to be told.
Q My only question was what was your title or position in the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A Vice-president.
Q Vice-president of what?
A The Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q And what was your responsibility there?
A I’ll say it again.
THE COURT: He just already said that.
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MR. WEINBERG: That is just what he said?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, were you referred to as the big boss at the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A No.
MR. WEINBERG: Play the next one, please.
_____________________________________
(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Make Scientology something to be proud of. Reform it now before David Miscavige ruins it. Find the new leaders within your organization whom you can be proud of.
“Stacy, why don’t you try to round some of them up?
“The Lisa McPherson Trust was established at 33 North Ft. Harrison Avenue in order to let the world know about the abusive practices which David Miscavige has caused Scientology to live by.
“The Lisa McPherson Trust will always be here to remind you that you have a responsibility to be good human beings. David Miscavige is ruining your organization.
“Telecommunications is one of the powerful things you have learned in Scientology. Use it.
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Try to use it to make the world a better place and start with dumping David Miscavige.
“If you ever want any help from Scientology, you can run to 33 North Ft. Harrison Avenue to the Lisa McPherson Trust.
“If you remember, Lisa McPherson is the woman who was held by Scientology for 17 days.
“The whole episode in the Church of Scientology’s Ft. Harrison Hotel was totally out-tech. Even the state prosecutor said it was totally out-tech. The whole thing was run by David Miscavige. David Miscavige is responsible for that woman’s death.
“Remember, David Miscavige is the one who performed the out-tech on Lisa McPherson.
“Remember, David Miscavige was responsible for the out-tech, out-tech handling of Lisa McPherson. She died after 17 days in captivity here.
“It was totally out-tech and you know it. You can look and smile.
“David Miscavige pulled the plug on Lisa. He pulled the plug on Hubbard’s tech. It’s time to face reality. Reform Scientology or it will be destroyed by David Miscavige.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
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______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, what was the reason that the Lisa McPherson Trust documented all these pickets by taking videos like this?
A Mmm, I think the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust always having the video when in close proximity to Scientology is the same reason that — for the same reason that happened to Mr. Minton when David Howe (phonetic) and another staff member — I think that was a staff member that attacked him. I personally took him to the hospital. He just raced him, no one is looking, boom.
So it became routine to take a video camera, in case something did happen that was truly criminal, that it could be documented. That was the purpose.
Q But it was for evidentiary purposes?
A Correct.
Q It wasn’t for posterity?
A Correct.
Q I mean, wasn’t this what the Lisa McPherson Trust was about — let me finish my question — to try to get rid of David Miscavige and to terrorize, using your word now, the Church of Scientology?
A I — I think Mr. Minton was very clear on what the Lisa McPherson Trust was for. And I’m glad you showed that
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video, because he made it clear he wasn’t out to destroy Scientology, make Scientology go away, as you have, you know, suggested earlier. He wanted it to reform. He wanted the criminal activities to stop.
Why does he pick David Miscavige? I think we need to talk about it. Because you know why? He’s the man that has the private investigators do what they do. He’s the one that — that instigates these vicious attacks against individuals who have any disparaging thing to say about Scientology.
Why does Mr. Minton mention him? Because he knows he’s the person that can change it. Just like that letter that was turned into evidence concerning Bernie McCabe.
He’s the person that can do it. If anyone can do it, Mr. Miscavige can do it.
Q Right. And you accused Mr. Miscavige of murder in your affidavit, didn’t you?
A I accused of — Mr. Miscavige of letting her die?
Q Of intentionally letting her die?
A Letting her die.
Q Intentionally?
THE COURT: We’ll not get anywhere. The document speaks for itself.
MR. WEINBERG: You are right.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You suggested, stated, in your affidavit, that a decision was made, an intentional premeditated decision, to let her die?
A Correct.
Q This is the same man that you shouted obscenities about, it’s the same man we are watching videos of Mr. Minton and others stand up, asking to be deposed or thrown out of position, right?
A It’s the same man I audited. It’s the same man I have been friends with many years. It’s the same man I have done training with. It’s the same man I helped myself establish and build Scientology for many years. So add that into the equation, too.
Q You think he would call you his friend?
A I think if David and I sat down and talked, he would —
THE COURT: I have heard this question and I have heard this answer at least twice.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, when Mr. Minton said the words “Out-tech” that is something that means something to a Scientologist, correct?
A Correct.
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Q I mean, Mr. Minton, prior to getting involved with you —
THE COURT: Counselor, it is getting pretty bad to me because I understood it.
MR. WEINBERG: But — all right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q A Scientologist, or a judge that sat in a hearing for 28 days.
THE COURT: There you go.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q That is not something Mr. Minton or any of us, having not been exposed to Scientology before, would understand, correct?
A Yes.
Q And to be out — out to accuse the ecclesiastical leader of being out-tech is about as — about as serious and severe an accusation as you could possibly make against David Miscavige, isn’t it?
A Mmm, Mr. Weinberg, my answer is if the shoe fits, wear it.
Q Just answer that question.
A I did. If the shoe fits, wear it.
THE COURT: No, he wants to know if that is a serious accusation to make to other Scientologists about their ecclesiastical head. Is that a bad
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thing to the head of Scientology to be out-tech.
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
THE COURT: To another Scientologist, those folks seeing that demonstration, if they believed that, would not think very highly of their leader?
THE WITNESS: Correct.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And would you not — from looking at that video or the other videos that you have seen so far, it doesn’t look like any of the Scientologists are having a lot of fun at your demonstrations, correct?
A You know, you have only shown me specifically Mr. Minton. You haven’t shown me what the Scientologists are doing or not doing, Mr. Weinberg.
Q Well, in that video we just showed, it was —
A It was going back and forth.
THE COURT: You know what, the deal is we are showing this for —
MR. WEINBERG: That is correct.
Could you play the next one, please.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Communicate to David Miscavige that he’s fired.
“Remember Lisa McPherson.
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“When you’re eating, remember Lisa at her last meal in December of ’95, held captive by the Church of Scientology leader, David Miscavige.
(Inaudible.)
“What is not safe for you is to stand there and do nothing. Tell David Miscavige he’s wrong. Tell him that L. Ron Hubbard would never approve of what he is doing to destroy your church.
“PK, PK, don’t run away.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Does it look, in that video — I mean, and others that we’ve seen — that Mr. Minton is terrorized, harassed or anything like that?
A Mmm, it looks like Mr. Minton was picketing, to me.
Q Now —
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Okay, are we going to do the locks?
“But the — are we going to do the alarms or –” (Inaudible.)
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________698
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You were just having a big time, you and Ms. Greenway?
A You know, that is an edited video you have there. It is — there is obvious editing there, so I would be hard-pressed to draw that conclusion.
Q When it started, it started like all of the pickets started inside the offices of the LMT, correct?
A That is a mischaracterization of how pickets started because every picket did not start in the Lisa McPherson Trust. Other people picketed the Ft. Harrison that weren’t associated with the Lisa McPherson Trust or employees of the LMT — Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q That clip from the LMT film library, that one started in the LMT building, didn’t it?
A I don’t know if it started or finished there because you have shown me one tiny segment. So, you know, if I could have some perspective and see the whole thing, I would be able to comment more accurately.
Q Now, the LMT — literally at times these pickets were intended to literally shut down Clearwater around where you-all were picketing, right?
A No.
MR. WEINBERG: Play that one, please.
______________________________________699
(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Last year, we were all over the place in a clump. We shut down here, we shut down here, we shut down there. We had Flag shut down for the whole day, anyway. This year we spread out in strategic spots and shut down the whole city.
“Frank Oliver came and caused the last breach. So far about two hours now they can’t hardly move anybody any way. They can pick up people from Flag but they can’t bring them in because they have to bring them in there, and they can’t do it.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
_______________________________________
BY MR. WEINBERG:Q That is somebody from the LMT?
A Absolutely not.
Q Who is that?
A Greg Hagglund. He lives in Canada.
Q And he was down here for the picket in December?
A Looking at that date of that, he was down for the picket and vigil. People come from all over the United States and even Europe for that. They were doing that long before the Lisa McPherson Trust ever existed or it was here in Clearwater. So, you know, it would be a real bad stretch to think that, you know, he’s working at the trust because
700
he’s picketing.
Q Well, is there a particular reason why the trust had that tape in its film library?
A Maybe someone videotaped it and gave it to the trust, Mr. Weinberg.
Q Well, who was the videotaper for the trust?
A Mark Bunker.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Remember Lisa McPherson. Okay, let’s go. (Inaudible.)
“– is one of our old friends.
“Yes. Some other friends from Germany, too.
“That is a good one, too.
“Where else would you like –”
(Inaudible.)
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Those are all people from the Lisa McPherson Trust, weren’t they?
A False.
Q Oh, Miss Caberta was from Germany, your guest over here?
A Ms. Caberta was here on vacation. Mrs. Caberta.
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And if you will recall, you yourself earlier said she’s employed by the German government. So, you know, she’s not LMT. She’s just like you said, employed by the German government.
Q This was an LMT-sponsored picket in front of the Ft. Harrison Hotel?
A LMT has never, to my knowledge, sponsored a picket.
Q Is there a particular reason why Mr. Merrett was at that picket?
A I believe Mr. Merrett was at the picket to make sure that nothing happened, there were no altercations, no scuffles, no — you know, you’ll notice this, people, for the most part, are just silently walking up and down the street.
They are not screaming at Scientology itself or yelling at Scientologists; they are exercising their constitutional right to protest.
Q Do you think it might be somewhat harassing to the — on the doorstep of the mecca of Scientologists with signs saying “Blood of Lisa McPherson on your hands” and things like that?
A You know, I can see where someone could draw that inference or conclusion. But the inference and conclusion I draw is people were exercising their constitutional right.
If it was even a civil crime, they would have been sued out
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of existence.
Q Do you remember that the Lisa McPherson Trust — people documented by Lisa McPherson Trust video picketed in front of the Ft. Harrison Hotel when a Hindu wedding was going on? A Hindu wedding?
A No, I was not there. I know nothing about it.
Q As your position as the VP of the Lisa McPherson Trust, you don’t remember that one?
A Correct.
MR. WEINBERG: Why don’t we show that.
THE WITNESS: Was I present here?
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Well, Jesus, that is one thing Scientology didn’t believe in or any other religion, isn’t that right, guys? Isn’t that right? Isn’t that right? That is all — let’s let all of the Nazis come out.
“People are trying to have a wedding, sir.
“What is that?
“Hey, this is fine.
“They’re just trying to have a wedding. They are not —
“Listen, it’s not my fault they got married here.
“Come on now.
“This is a public sidewalk, buddy, so don’t start
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pushing.
“This is not — (inaudible).
“This is a public sidewalk. Let’s get out of the way. It is still a public sidewalk. Okay?
“When you get out of Scientology, your luck will — (Inaudible.)
“Let’s go. Let’s go.
“Let’s go.
“Come on.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Why did the LMT put that in its film library?
A I think that every — and I’m not sure if this is not Mr. Mark Bunker’s film library that you are referring to — but, you know, we’re — we’re looking at here your two star witnesses. You are showing me videos of your witnesses that you have used in this hearing to testify for you. What are we doing here?
Q I think you said that this is the most harassed person you have ever seen. Does it look like Mr. Minton is the most harassed person you have ever seen when he’s standing there with a sign with skulls on it in front of the Ft. Harrison —
704
THE COURT: Don’t —
MR. WEINBERG: I’m sorry.
THE COURT: — raise your voice up to this witness and start approaching him.
MR. WEINBERG: I’m sorry.
THE COURT: I won’t have it. And I’m not going to remind you again.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q With a sign with skulls on it, interrupting a Hindu wedding?
A Mr. Weinberg, I agree with you what happened there — what happened was extremely inappropriate. And I don’t agree with it. And you didn’t see me there.
Q I’ll show you one you are at, Mr. Prince.
By the way, before you play that, that tape was done — the one we just played was done in — in September of 2000.
You were full-time at the Lisa McPherson Trust, correct?
A That is possible, yes.
Q Not possible. That is correct?
A I said it’s possible.
Q Why do you say it’s possible? I mean —
A Because I’m not sure when I made that transition from — I’ll explain it to you, I’m not trying to be coy
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here, but there came a point in time when my work with Mr. Dandar involved doing a bunch of depositions of Scientology staff members or Scientologists or whatever and we worked together quite a bit then.
But then there came a period of time when it was time for the medical experts. Those people are the experts. He certainly didn’t need me there. So there came a point in time when I started working at the Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q In September of 2000 when that took place, you were on the payroll of the Lisa McPherson Trust, correct?
A It is possible, yes.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Jesse is — this is — Jesse, show him what you’re going to do if they come at you.
“Drop and fall. That is all. I’m going to fall down.
“Hey —
“You know what (inaudible).
“That is a good idea.
“Full resistance, that is our motto.
“How are you going to do it?
“Just carry the sign.
“Oh, my God.
“Kind of like the Three Stooges.
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“The St. Pete Police.
“Yes, I told them I would be there by quarter to seven.
“Oh, God.
“Let’s do this.
“Guys, remember what we all agree with. We’re all staying together.
“Yes, boss.
(Inaudible.)
“Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay, well — Mmm, no.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, that is one of your six pickets?
A Rhetorical.
Q Excuse me?
A That is one of the six pickets I have probably been in.
Q And in that video we saw Patricia Greenway, correct, who is in the audience, right?
A Show it to me again. I missed that.
THE COURT: Yes, she was there.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I’ll take your word.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Peter Alexander, who testified in this hearing?
707
THE COURT: I don’t know if he was there or not.
MR. WEINBERG: He was.
THE COURT: I didn’t recognize him, but —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q The gentleman, sort of young guy in the pink or red shirt, that was Graham Berry, correct?
A Correct.
Q The lawyer from LA?
A Correct.
Q Now, your sign, “Mafia Cult”?
A Correct.
Q And that was —
A In relationship to the black operations that are run out of OSA.
Q And you were picketing, you walked from the LMT — this was an LMT operation, wasn’t it? That is where you-all left from, from the LMT?
A Yes.
Q And at that point, you were full-time at the LMT?
A I — I’ll stipulate to that, sure.
Q Except you were still working for Mr. Dandar, you were still doing stuff on the Lisa McPherson case, weren’t you?
A Well, you know, as I said, Mr. Weinberg, there
708came a time when Mr. Dandar was solely doing medical experts. There was certainly no need for me to sit there through that.
MR. WEINBERG: One second, your Honor.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you, Mr. Dandar and a number of other people from the LMT were at the closing when Mr. Minton closed on the purchase of the building either at the — at the beginning — January 5 of 2000, is that right?
A I believe that is correct.
Q And Mr. Dandar was — and you and Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks were very enthusiastic about the LMT and how the LMT was going to — to operate. Correct?
A Yes.
Q And Ms. Liebreich was very enthusiastic about the LMT opening, correct?
A I don’t think Mrs. Liebreich was there.
Q But do you remember that the first phone call that was made was made to Ms. Liebreich, and you talked to her, among other people?
A I think I remember something about that, yes.
Q And she was very enthusiastic about that. Right?
A She was very happy and proud that the last wishes of Fannie McPherson were actually taking effect, which was to expose any deceptive and abusive processes by
709
Scientology, you know.
Mr. Minton is — just wants reform, tired of people calling, tired of people saying, “Can you please help.”
Q Your testimony, I believe, was — and correct me if I’m wrong — that you never met with Mr. Dandar for any purpose — for any meeting type purpose at the LMT. Is that right?
A Correct.
Q Now, do you remember at this opening that — at this closing where, in essence, the LMT was opening, that you described — or someone described what your position and responsibility was going to be at the LMT?
A I don’t recall it specifically, Mr. Weinberg.
Q And you deny it was in charge of PR, right?
A Correct.
MR. WEINBERG: If you could play that, please.
This is another video from the LMT.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Ken, I’m sorry there’s no more chairs.
“It is okay.
“Sign first — (inaudible).
“You want to sit down? Here is the — these are the — (inaudible).
710
“Did you bring the property insurance papers?
“Of course not.
“You didn’t?
(Inaudible.)
“You mean the balance, it’s everything you did fax me yesterday.
(Inaudible).
“The insurance papers are the closing paper for the mortgage.
“Yeah. Right. Right.
(Inaudible.)
“That is okay. That is okay.
“It’s just that we don’t have the check for him — or, we have the check but — (inaudible).
“How are we going to do it? How are you going to do it?
(Inaudible.)
“No, I’ll just tell you to send a check and how much it is. (Inaudible.) It’s a binder.
(Inaudible.)
“If Scott has a fax machine I can fax it to him.
“Hang on one second. Okay?
“Yes.
“Okay.”
711
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Is that Tom Tobin from the St. Pete Times?
A I believe it is.
______________________________________“This is Steve Mitchell. This is Jesse Prince.
“Nice to meet you, Jesse.
“Nice to meet you.
“He’s an expert on Scientology in the Lisa McPherson case. He’s going to be also working at the trust.
“Oh. Terrific.
(Inaudible.)
“So he has an idea of what we’re dealing with. Big time, right?
“Big time, Bobby. This is too cool.
“Jesse, what are you going to do with this organization?
“Make it as successful as possible.
“I mean, what’s your job or what — do you have functions or duties or —
“I’m on the board of directors. And I’m going to just, you know, be here with the organization, get it through its initial phase of establishing itself, and run around and do public relations.
“Oh, really.
712
“Yes.
“He’s also an expert on the Lisa McPherson case so he’s going to be spending a lot of time with Ken Dandar so he’ll be –”
(Inaudible.)
“He’s been working, you know, intimately with Ken on this case for a long time.
“Oh.
(Inaudible.)
“You mean, does he own the building now?
“Thank you very much. Thank you. Scott.
“Thank you.
“Thank you very much. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate this.
“I wish you the best. I hope you do well with this.
“Thank you.
“Scott’s been under a lot of pressure, I’m sure.
“Congratulations.
“Thank you.
“Jesse.
“Hey, Ken?
“Hey, Ken?
“So anybody want to open that champagne?
(Inaudible.)
713
“Ken, your comments?
“Well, I think this is a good day for downtown Clearwater.
“Hi, Mike. How is it going?
“Happy New Year.
“We just closed on the building.
“Okay. Call me.
“I have a binder in my office.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________MR. DANDAR: Could we have a stipulation that was edited by the defense?
MR. WEINBERG: I mean —
THE COURT: I don’t know if it was or not.
MR. WEINBERG: I mean, Mr. Bunker edited a lot of these tapes before he ever gave them to us. I mean —
MR. DANDAR: Well, whatever.
MR. WEINBERG: I mean —
THE COURT: All I can say, Counselor, it is available for you to get a copy of, so —
MR. DANDAR: I know.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, what was the Lisa McPherson trial consultant and the Lisa McPherson case lawyer doing at the closing of
714
the LMT building?
A It looks like they were partaking in the festivities, to me.
Q It does to me, too, Mr. Prince.
A Yeah.
Q Now, when Ms. Brooks said that you were going to be doing public relations, was your first job to get Tom Tobin from the St. Pete Times there?
A You know, I think that is a leap in logic. And I think the person that actually said doing public relations stuff was me. I don’t think it was Ms. Brooks.
Q All right, I stand corrected. When you said you were doing public relations, what did you mean?
A I think that that was just an offhand comment. And I didn’t even know what I meant. Maybe I had some intention on doing something public relations-wise.
But what factually ended up happening is once the door opened, the phones started ringing. And as I mentioned, you know, getting through the initial establishment part, to find out exactly what our role is going to be, it simply turned into servicing current and ex-Scientology members.
Q The way you got your message out was to carry signs and picket in front of the Church of Scientology?
A That was the one thing that was done.
715
Q And — but at this time when this started in January 5 of 2000, you were in charge of public relations but you were being paid by Mr. Dandar to be a so-called expert in the Lisa McPherson case. Correct?
A That is totally incorrect. There was no public relations. I was not doing public relations, orchestrating public relations, media contact.
Mr. Weinberg, if you have shown anything with the indiscretion I have used, public relations is not anything that I would even pretend to be versed in, so, you know, let’s move on.
THE COURT: I’m going to tolerate about one more of these, then I can’t stand any more for the day. I still do not know why we’re playing all of these, but —
MR. WEINBERG: I can explain.
THE COURT: I’ll let you do that in closing argument, but I can only stand one more today, so play it and —
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll play one more and it will be this one.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: December 2, picket across from the Ft. Harrison.
I want you to look for Mr. Dandar here. All
716
right?
THE WITNESS: Okay. All right.
THE COURT: What is the date again, Counselor?
MR. WEINBERG: December 2, 2000.
THE WITNESS: Was I at this picket?
(WHEREUPON, the video was played. No audio available.)
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You recognize the person with the sign was Frank Oliver?
A Yes.
Q You recognize Teresa Summers? She testified in this case.
A Yes.
Q You recognize yourself?
A Yes.
Q You recognize Mr. Merrett?
A Yes.
Q You recognize Mr. Minton?
A Yes.
Q You recognize Mr. Dandar. Correct?
A Yes.
Q And that was in front of the Ft. Harrison during a picket, wasn’t it?
THE COURT: I didn’t see any signs except
717
one — I did not see what I would classify as a picket.
A There was no picket. And I remember this incident, if you’ll let me explain it to you.
Bob Minton had come into town and Ken needed to talk to him or see him for something. Mr. Dandar simply stopped by. Mr. Dandar was not a part of any picket or doing anything. He simply knew where Mr. Minton was going to be, he came there, spoke with him and left.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So what were you-all doing there?
THE COURT: I saw folks across the street, Counsel, that had signs, then somebody said hi, went across the street. That is where Mr. Dandar was.
The sign was down. The only one person that had it, they were talking, then somebody put a sign up and went off like there was something else going on someplace else.
I don’t think it would be fair to classify what Mr. Dandar was in was a picket. I could not tell they were in front of any hotel, either.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Well, you recognize that was across from the Ft. Harrison?
A No, I do not.
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THE COURT: I don’t know where it was because I couldn’t tell. It looked like a street corner. It might have been. I don’t recognize that.
MR. DANDAR: I can tell you, Judge. It was catty-corner across the street from the Ft. Harrison. These people with signs who were across the street from me, across the street from the Ft. Harrison, were standing in front of the new Super Power building. But I wasn’t part of any picket.
That is right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, was Mr. Merrett part of the picket?
A No, he was not.
Q Were you?
A No, I was not.
Q So you had been — so all these LMT people were sort of off to the side, and there were other LMT people that were holding signs?
A You know, again, Counselor, I’m not trying to be difficult here. You are showing snippets and you are drawing conclusions. The conclusion that I see from this snippet is we are simply standing there having a conversation. No one but no one is picketing.
THE COURT: Looks like there was getting ready to be a picket. There were people with signs, but
719
when they saw Dandar, it looks like somebody waved, walked across the street, the guy that had the sign, whoever that was, the one, put his sign down. When he picked up the sign, he went walking off to where I would presume a picket was going on. But those other folks were across the street that must have been going for a picket, I’m guessing.
MR. WEINBERG: You said that was the last one you wanted to see.
THE COURT: That is absolutely the last one I want to see.
It is 5 o’clock. We’re done for the day.
We’ll see you at 9 o’clock tomorrow.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. Have a good night.
(WHEREUPON, Court stands in recess at 5 o’clock.)
_____________________________________720
REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties’ attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action.
DATED this 9th day of July, 2002.
______________________________
LYNNE J. IDE, RMR