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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,vs.
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants._______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants’ Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
CONTENTS: Testimony of Jesse Prince.1
VOLUME 6
DATE: July 10, 2002. Morning Session.
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida.BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge.
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500722
APPEARANCES:
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. LEE FUGATE
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. HOWARD ROSS
Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A.
980 Tyrone Boulevard
St. Petersburg, Florida 33710
Counsel for Robert Minton.THE COURT: Good morning. Mr. Prince. All right. Mr. Dandar, you are standing. You must want something.
MR. DANDAR: Well, we have a proposed order here. I have some responses here. I have declarations of Stacy Brooks and others I want to file. But let’s just go with Mr. Prince.
THE COURT: Okay.
(A discussion was held off the record.)
THE COURT: What day is today? The 10th? I was looking, what is — how many days of hearings is this?
THE BAILIFF: 30.
THE COURT: No, no. Mr. Bailiff says 30. Does anybody —
MR. WEINBERG: Add zero to that. That is where we are.
THE COURT: Is that where we are, 30?
MR. WEINBERG: I think so.
THE COURT: Good morning, Mr. Ross. Are you designated Mr. Minton’s attorney here today?
MR. ROSS: That is correct.
THE COURT: I think that probably you have been advised Mr. Minton needs a lawyer in this proceeding and, therefore, we welcome you. But you have no ability to object in this particular proceeding.
MR. ROSS: I understand, your Honor.
THE COURT: You understand you may hear some very weird testimony as far as some strange evidentiary rulings. But this is a strange hearing and sort of the rules of evidence — we’re going to deal with that after the hearing.
MR. ROSS: I understand.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: Just give me a minute, your Honor.
THE COURT: I will. I will ask Mr. Dandar, while you are doing that, did you have a chance to E-Mail Mr. Henson?
MR. DANDAR: Yes, I did. And he E-mailed me back and said, “Can you find me a lawyer, is it worth it?” I said no, both questions.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I notified Mr. Hill’s secretary that Mr. Rosen would not be called. And I should have an order here on the pro hac vice, if it is not by the morning break, by noontime.
THE COURT: All right. Fine.
MR. LIEBERMAN: I would just like to inquire, does that mean Mr. Henson is abandoning his motion?
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THE COURT: No, I think what that means, he will not be represented. And I suspect you should — as I said, let me have time to read it. I may be able to rule on your motion without any argument.
MR. LIEBERMAN: Very good.
THE COURT: But, frankly, I want to still leave it scheduled for hearing, because he may get somebody to appear. And we’ll deal with it at the scheduled time. I would not assume that is an abandonment.
MR. LIEBERMAN: All right.
MR. DANDAR: Right.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: All right? I’m ready.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Mr. Prince, you — I think you said on your direct testimony — but let me go over it again — you have testified previously as a witness under oath in either trial testimony or deposition testimony. Is that right?
A In this — in this case, yes, I have.
Q In other cases, as well. Correct?
A Yes, I have.
Q And — and is it your testimony that at all times
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in those other cases when you were under oath, that you testified truthfully?
A Yes, it is.
Q Okay. Now, yesterday — or the day before, whenever it was — you testified that you had participated in the destruction of PC folders, particularly Mr. Wollersheim’s PC folder which he said was pulped, I believe, while you were at RTC?
A Correct.
Q Now, you remember testifying as a witness in 1989 in the lawsuit Religious Technology versus Joseph Yanny?
A I do not.
Q You don’t remember that?
A No, I do not.
THE COURT: I don’t even remember hearing about that case. That is a new one for me.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I thought you testified, by the way, on your direct, that you had been a witness in that case, in fact, that while you were in Scientology, you were actually a witness in that case.
A No. While I was in Scientology I said I was a witness in the Wollersheim 4 case, specifically concerning the Advanced ability Center, David Mayo.
MR. WEINBERG: Could I approach the witness,
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your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Let me show you a transcript of your deposition taken in Los Angeles, California on September 11, 1989 and ask you if you can identify that transcript and identify that as your testimony on that day under oath, and at the end you’ll see an errata sheet which I believe also has your signature on it.
A What is this on? On September ’89? Okay.
Then —
Q At the end is an errata sheet. Do you see that?
A Uh-huh.
Q And you see that you — do you recognize your signature on there dated —
A 12 December, ’89. Yes, I do.
Q Obviously — I’ll leave this here because I have a few questions on it. Obviously you testified as a witness in 1989 and were given the opportunity to review that testimony and make corrections. Correct?
A I don’t — Mmm — recall that, Mr. Weinberg, but since I did sign the errata sheet, I’ll say okay.
MR. DANDAR: I would like to have a copy of that, Judge. If they’re going to start using it, pulling things out of context, I would like to be
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able to review it.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, it’s amazing I’m being accused of pulling something out of context.
MR. DANDAR: We all do, we pull something out and say, “Did you say this?”
THE COURT: If you are going to use a deposition and he doesn’t have a copy of it, he ought to have a copy of it.
MR. WEINBERG: Do we have an extra copy of it?
Do we have copies of these?
THE COURT: I tell you what, go ahead and use it and then get him a copy before Mr. Dandar —
Mr. Dandar, please listen if you care, maybe you don’t care. If you care, I’ll have them provide you a copy of the deposition before your redirect.
MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
THE COURT: If anything was pulled out of context, you can correct it.
MR. DANDAR: Okay. Thank you.
MR. WEINBERG: Now, in addition —
THE COURT: You-all provide him a copy.
MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, in addition to your testimony in this proceeding that you had participated in the destruction of
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PC folders, you also, in your August 20, 1999 affidavit, that is the — the affidavit where you made the accusation about David Miscavige, in that affidavit, in Paragraph 22 you swore that you had participated in the destruction of Wollersheim’s PC folder. Correct?
A Correct.
Q Now, if you will turn, Mr. Prince — when I get the right folder here — to Page 153 of your Yanny deposition. You find Page 153?
A Mmm, just about. I have it here.
Q I want you to read Line 5, 6 and 7.
“Question: Were you ever involved in the destruction of PC folders?
“Answer. No.”
Okay. That was your sworn testimony then, correct?
A Yes, it was.
Q And when you go to that errata sheet, does it say anything about you making any mistakes with regard to that sworn answer where you swore under oath in 1989 that you had not been involved in the destruction of PC folders?
A Mr. — you know, I don’t recall this errata sheet, to answer the question that quickly. I don’t even recall the errata sheet.
THE COURT: The real question is that was your
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testimony on that date, is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes, this was the testimony I had given on that date.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And you previously testified that all your prior sworn testimony was true. Correct?
A Correct.
Q So you lied here in court when you said that you had participated in PC folders being destroyed?
A Well, you know, I have to at least look at a couple pages earlier here to kind of get an idea what was going on here to orient myself to 1989.
Q Look at a couple pages earlier.
THE COURT: Might I just ask, where he was reading, was he testifying for plaintiff, or defendant?
MR. WEINBERG: He was testifying for the Church. For RTC.
A Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q That was certainly — you wouldn’t have had a recollection problem back in 1989, would you, as to what had occurred a year or so or two or three before that, as opposed to 2002, talking about things that supposedly happened?
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A Mmm, Mr. Weinberg, I — I don’t think I would have had a recollection problem, but maybe I would have had a problem with coercion.
Q Let’s see now —
A Or — or manipulation.
Q Excuse me. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt.
A Or manipulation. This was a very bad time for me. This was shortly — well, let’s see, this was a couple years after I had been away from any position of authority. I was still being asked to — Mmm — participate in the courts, for whatever reason, God only knows. And I was not in a very good state of mind.
Q Well, I thought you said you were relieved yesterday to leave your post at RTC and that you were in a better state of mind as a result of being relieved and not having to do all those things that you swore yesterday and the day before that you had participated in.
A Certainly in that regard, Mr. Weinberg, I was relieved. But I didn’t have a lot of direction for my life.
I think I was pretty suicidal at that point. And I had written about that, as well.
Q All right. So you started saying these things about destroying PC folders after people started paying you,like Mr. Minton and Mr. Leipold and through Mr. Dandar, that
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is when you started saying these things, not when you weren’t being paid.
A No, Mr. Weinberg, quite the contrary. I — this came out because I decided that it was no longer an operating principle of mine that the greatest good is for Scientology. I kind of — you know, just kind of got away from that.
Q So it’s a principle now the greatest good for Jesse Prince, whoever will put the money in your pocket, that is what you’ll say?
A No, Mr. Weinberg, the greatest good is the truth and justice and equity.
Q All right. So what you’re saying, just so I get this right, you lied back in 1989?
A Yes — yes. According to these documents, I lied on behalf of Scientology.
Q All right. And you lied in — I’ll just refresh your recollection about being asked about this before — do you remember giving a deposition in this case when — when I deposed you?
A I think you and I have been at it a time or two.
Q And do you remember that I asked you the questions on Page — I’ll refer now to Page 465 of your deposition of — of November 17, November 18, 1999.
“Question: Now, when you testified — how many
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times have you testified in your entire career, life?
“Answer: In a courtroom or deposition setting?
“Question: Both.
“Answer: Possibly five.
“Question: All right, and each time you testified, whether in deposition or in court, you were under oath, right?
“Answer: Correct.
“You raised your hand and swore to tell the truth.
“Answer: Correct.
“Question: Nothing but the truth, right?
“Answer: Correct.
“And you testified truthfully on those five occasions.
“Answer: Correct.
“Question: You didn’t perjure yourself.
“Answer: Correct.
“Question: So if you were asked the questions in a deposition that I asked and those were your answers then when you gave those answers, it is your testimony that they were truthful answers, correct?
“Answer: Well, you know, yeah, okay. I’ll say yeah, okay, yeah.”
Then later in the deposition — do you remember being asked those questions and giving those answers?
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A No, I do not, Mr. Weinberg.
Q Do you remember being asked on Page 469 of your deposition two years ago, “You testified in the Yanny case we’ve already talked about, was that deposition and trial or just deposition?
“Answer: I believe it was just deposition. And again, I was never afforded the opportunity — well, no, I’m sorry, I’ll answer the direct question, I won’t tell stories. Yes.”
Do you remember being asked that question and giving that answer?
A No, Mr. Weinberg. But if it’s there, then I believe it.
Q So apparently three years ago when we took your deposition you remembered the Yanny case testimony but today you don’t?
A I — Mr. Weinberg, I think that is a bit of mischaracterization to say I would have remembered the Yanny testimony. You know, this document here is a couple hundred pages long. I — I don’t think any of us are capable of remembering a couple hundred pages of something that happened ten years ago.
Q Is there a particular reason why, in all these accusations you made against Scientology, you didn’t say,
“And they told me to perjure myself in 1989 in the Yanny
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deposition”? Why didn’t you do that?
A Well, the fact of the matter is, Mr. Weinberg, again, like I — I was damaged goods during that time. I had gone through a lot of stress, a lot of — Mmm — decisions to change my life. Mmm, didn’t have certain — you know, a certainty on where I was going with my life. I felt pretty hopeless.
But let’s talk about the perjury here since this is the subject here. What I have testified to before concerning preclear folder destruction is the fact that because these preclear folders of Mr. Wollersheim were being asked to be produced and ultimately the whole folders were turned over, the order to destroy the folders came from Mr. Miscavige with Mr. Rathbun present, myself, Vicki Aznaran. It became my responsibility to report when that fact was done.
I myself was not the person that destroyed the preclear folders or had — or pulped them. Rick Aznaran is the person, along with another current Office of Special Affairs, Charlie Earl, rented a truck, took these folders; Vicki Aznaran — Lawrence Wollersheim, possibly Bill Franks, Gerry Armstrong and others took them to the recycling plant, and when Mr. Aznaran came back, he showed me a liquid bottle with paper on — with the pulp paper on the bottom.
So technically did I know about it? Yes.
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Technically did I do it? No.
Q Oh, I see.
A But I sanctioned it and I went along with it.
Q So perjury — the question was: “Were you ever involved in the destruction of PC folders?
“Answer: No.”
That is not perjury because you have somehow justified in your mind that you really weren’t involved because you didn’t actually pull the switch? Is that what you’re saying?
A No, I’m saying that I’m not the person that actually did it myself, but I knew about it. And reported about it.
Q Is that —
A I didn’t stop it. So, you know, the fact of the matter is I won’t beat around the bush with you, Mr. Weinberg. Right here I was not being truthful.
Q Now, did somebody tell you to perjure yourself?
Is this something that somebody told you to do? Or you just did this on your own?
A No, I was told to do it. Mr. Earle Cooley, who was lead counsel for the Church of Scientology at the time, wanted me to do it. Mr. Rathbun, who was — was again and always responsible for church legal, wanted me to do it.
Mmm, I was being a good Scientologist and protecting
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Scientology.
Q That is amazing. So when this started out you didn’t have any recollection of the Yanny deposition, you don’t remember having even signed the errata sheet, and now you have this clear recollection that — that Mr. Cooley, a lawyer who is on the board of trustees of Boston College — or Boston University, and Mr. Rathbun told you to lie? Is that what you’re saying now?
A Mr. — Mr. Weinberg, I mean, because we are talking about this, because you have presented me with documentation, we’ve discussed it, I think I do have a mind and I can have some recollection about this. And I’m just telling you what happened here.
Mmm, there are other things that I have written specifically about my relationship with Earle Cooley, and because you have all of those E-Mails, I’m sure you have those in evidence, too. That is not the only thing that I thought was unethical that happened with Mr. Cooley, irrespective of where he sits.
Q So the way it works is, if we can catch you at it and if we can show you a video or show you some testimony where you perjured yourself, then it’s an indiscretion, essentially, you sort of caught me. Is that the way it works?
MR. DANDAR: Objection, argumentative.
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THE COURT: Sustained.
A Mmm —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q It was sustained, Mr. Prince.
THE COURT: You don’t have to answer the question.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you said your life was hopeless?
A Correct.
Q When was this deposition, 1989?
A Correct.
Q But having been hopeless, you stayed another three years?
A I stayed another five years after my life was pretty much hopeless. You know, I fell into the hopelessness — you know, right in 1987 when that whole thing happened I was ready to leave Scientology at that point. All I wanted to do was walk away. I had to escape to leave because I was in the RPF, walking through the desert, on and on, and I’m sure you don’t want to hear that story.
Q That story? Is that what you said? Do I want to hear the story?
A Let’s please maintain civility here, Mr. Weinberg.
Q All right, I asked you —
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A I’m trying to explain this to you. I had escaped. I had helped Vicki Aznaran escape. We were being kept in the RPF in a — behind a — Soboba Indian Reservation in the most horrid conditions. All I wanted to do was walk away. I had to threaten to go to the press, threaten to go to the police, the same thing I suspect Lisa had to do when she tried to leave, as well.
And ultimately because the woman that I was married to, who had no idea what I had been involved in, what my position really was in the Church of Scientology, what my participation was, it came down to Mr. Mithoff, Mr. Miscavige specifically talking to my wife and telling her what a horrible person I was and that I’m blowing and I’m psychotic and I’m crazy because I want to leave and this kind of thing.
So then I was faced with even a bigger problem. And my bigger problem was now am I just going to walk out of Scientology and leave this person that I love, that I’m married to, because she hasn’t woke even up, because she doesn’t understand, because I haven’t been with her and let her know what’s going on. And that is kind of a problem in Scientology in and of itself because the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. You are not allowed to talk about your case, you’re not allowed to talk about secret this, secret that. So we had had a breach of
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communication for many years.
But in my mind at that time I was thinking, you know, I’m not going to desert another person in my life, I’m not going to desert this woman for Scientology. I will sit here with her until she sees what I see. And I was actually, therefore, there for another five years.
And these are points I have written about as well.
I felt almost like an animal, I had no mind, no brain, no will, nothing. And this is what happened to me and I went and did this and it was wrong. And yeah, I did that and you have pointed it out and here we are.
Q Now, in 1989 when you perjured yourself —
A Uh-huh?
Q — according to your testimony now, or didn’t, depending upon whether you perjured yourself in this hearing, you weren’t on the RPF, were you, in 1989? You were working in the Golden Era studio, correct?
A I think in 1989 I was on what is considered — what is called the DPF, the Deck Project Force. The reason I say that is because in 1987 when I was removed from my position and I went to the RPF — Mmm — I think I was there for — until December of ’87.
In December of ’87 I got off the RPF, I started trying to practice auditing again. I did that for some time and really didn’t want to do it anymore.
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Toward the end of ’88, I believe, a security guard at Golden Era Productions got kind of rough with my wife.
THE COURT: You know, this really doesn’t matter where he was. You weren’t in RPF.
A No, I was in DPF. I wasn’t in Golden Era Productions, I mean, working in the studios, as you suggested. I was actually on the DPF. And this is the same period I did that watch with Mrs. Brooks, Terese or — or Teresita —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q That was in ’88?
A That was in ’88?
Q Yes. You say things were hopeless for you?
Things were hopeless for you in 1997 and 1998, as well, wasn’t it?
A I wouldn’t say that.
Q You filed for bankruptcy and went bankrupt in November of — filed in what, May of ’97, and it was finalized in November of ’97, correct?
A I believe there are documents to that effect that have the correct dates.
Q But — but you went bankrupt in 1997, correct?
A Mmm —
Q Yes, or no?
A Yes, I did. I believe that is correct.
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Q So you were broke in 1997?
A I filed for bankruptcy in 1997, but I — I wasn’t able to pay my bills adequately in 1997.
Q And except for Mr. Minton coming like an angel from heaven in June of 1998, you didn’t know what you were going to do?
A Utterly and completely false.
Q After Mr. Minton appeared on the scene you then hooked up with Stacy Brooks, you hooked up with Dan Leipold, you hooked up with Ken Dandar, and since that time this is what you have been doing, getting paid to testify, write affidavits and work against Scientology, correct?
A No, that is absolutely incorrect and it is false.
Q Now, let’s go back to the deposition for a moment.
Now, you testified under oath a lot about the GO and OSA and all that. Do you remember that, here in this proceeding? You said you had all this knowledge about the kinds of activities that had gone on. Do you remember that?
A No, I think you are mischaracterizing my earlier testimony. I don’t think that the words Guardian’s Office exited my lips during these proceedings. I have spoke about OSA and I have — I have presented Mr. Hubbard’s eternal words on — on what intelligence is expected to do, what legal is expected to do and some of what public relations is supposed to do. I think that better characterizes —
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Q Well, let me refresh your recollection, if you remember on June 18 saying, “Question, was there any carryover from the Guardian’s Office to OSA?
“Answer: Yes, there was, there was a carryover of some of the staff and some of the policies. Then you went on to say, “Question, was OSA still Department 20 like the Guardian’s Office was?
You said, “Yes, OSA wanted to make sure they didn’t make the same mistakes as the past Guardian Office was. One of the mistakes was putting in writing and detailing some of the operations.”
A Yes, I did.
Q Do you remember that?
A Yes.
Q Now, turn to Page 149, please, of the Yanny deposition.
A Okay.
Q I want you to read Line 5 through Line 16 — Line 5 through Line 13 — 16, I’m sorry.
A To 16?
Q Yes, just read it out loud.
MR. DANDAR: Objection, that is not the way you do it.
THE COURT: That is true.
A I have read it.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I’ll read it. Did you give — were you asked these questions and give these answers?
MR. DANDAR: Objection, that is not the way you —
THE COURT: Yes, it is the way you do it.
Overruled.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q “You ever heard of the GO?
“Answer: Yes.
“Question: What was the GO?
“It was Guardian’s Office.
“Question: And Mary Sue Hubbard was in charge of that for a period of time?
“Answer: I have no knowledge of the Guardian’s Office. I was never associated or affiliated with it in any way.
“Answer (sic): You do know that a number of Guardian’s Office people went to jail?
“Answer: I don’t –”
Then there was objection.
A Okay.
Q Were you asked those questions and give those answers?
A Yes, that is correct.
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Q And that was true or was that perjury, as well, that you had no knowledge of the Guardian’s Office?
A Well, that was true then and it is true now.
Prior to my association with going to Gilman Hot Springs, I had — you know — you know, I had done protests at the behest of the Guardian’s Office where all Scientologists got together, and I think did a demonstration of the courthouse down there at a point in time on — Hebert would — what they do is they have a thing in Scientology called a call to arms —
Q Really, all I asked you, was that true or not and you said it was true that —
A Okay.
Q Using your words, you had no percipient knowledge —
A Well, I don’t want to play —
Q Can I ask my question first?
A I told you that there was — you know, was some association with the Guardian Office, and I tried to clarify that. So you know, I don’t want to get into word games here where you say, well, you said you never did it but suddenly now you have me picketing at the behest of Scientology. I mean, little activities like that, I mean, I popped out of a coffin across the park doing a skit based on something that —
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Q I understand, but you waxed eloquent about the GO and how it’s the same — OSA was the same, and under oath here you said you didn’t know, didn’t have information about the GO. You didn’t know anything about it.
A No, I think you are confused on that issue, Mr. Weinberg.
Q Now, do you remember testifying in this proceeding that — that you were — had responsibility for legal, intelligence and PR activities of OSA? Do you remember that?
A Yes.
Q Particularly intelligence activities of OSA, that was your testimony?
THE COURT: Could you define or tell him — I don’t remember, was it here in this hearing?
MR. WEINBERG: That is what I said. I was just reading from his testimony.
THE COURT: Here?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG: Q I’ll read — this is the dirty — when I say dirty, this is the —
THE COURT: Dirty copy, I know.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q The dirty copy, but on my Page 71 of the dirty copy, which is obviously not the actual transcript, what it says is, “As I mentioned –” this is your answer — “we used to do the technology side of Scientology. Then there was a separate area, areas that I also had responsibility for.
And those were legal, intelligence and PR activities of OSA which is a separate network in Scientology.”
That was your testimony, right?
A Yes. Yes.
Q Now, I want you to turn, if you will, Mr. Prince,to Page 77, first, of your Yanny depo. While you are looking for it, you were deputy inspector general of RTC, correct?
A Correct.
Q And it was deputy inspector general external was your actual — DIG external, right?
A Right.
Q Did you — if you go to the bottom of the page, Line 22, were you asked this question and did you give this answer.
“Question: Back when you were the DIG external, did you have any responsibility for intelligence?
“Answer: Not particularly.
“Question: Is there a group or subgroup within
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Scientology organization referred to as Intel?
“Answer: No, not that I know of.
“Question: Has Intel ever been part of your job description?
“Answer: No.
“Have you ever had any responsibility for Intel?
“Answer: No.”
Were you asked those questions and did you give those answers?
A Yes, I did.
Q And was that truthful testimony?
A Yes, it was. And you know, in — inasmuch as it — that it was deceptive testimony because we’ve sat here and we’ve gone over all of these Scientology issues, now that says intelligence action, this, that and other thing, but when the GO was gotten rid of, the section that was called intelligence was no longer called intelligence; it was called the information bureau. And I think if you look at a current organization chart for the Office of Special Affairs, you will find that it says information bureau. It doesn’t say intelligence bureau. But if you look at the materials that the persons are trained on in the information bureau, it is intelligence.
Q It is sort of like your testimony yesterday where I asked you about the picket sign, you know, in front of
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Mr. Minton’s house and you said you didn’t own a sign?
A You know, I don’t know about that, Mr. —
Q Was that truthful but deceptive testimony, or is that sort of like an example of what you’re talking about?
A I don’t know about that analogy, Mr. Weinberg. I think you are confused on that issue and you are mixing apples and oranges. But I pretty much answered your question with this.
Q All right. So this is truthful but — and so what is — by the way, just so — it’s not perjury when you tell the truth but you are deceptive? In your mind, that is okay?
A Well, you know, I’m —
Q Just answer the question.
A I’m not going to draw a legal conclusions. You are the trained lawyer here. I’m the trained Scientologist.
Q You are the trained witness.
A I can tell you about that. I can’t tell you about the lawyering so much. I can’t explain the law to you. You can explain that to me.
Q Explain to me how you are being truthful when you are being deceptive?
A By the mere fact being deceptive, you are not being totally honest. But then again, as I understand the law, you are not obligated to answer but an exact question,
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and the exact question here was about intelligence and — and again, I’ll tell you, when the GO was changed, the word “intelligence” was gotten rid of and the word “information” was put in there; information bureau, information department.
So if they would have said information department, I could have answered these questions a little differently.
But I didn’t say, oh, you know, well, they changed intelligence to information because no person wants a witness walking in just blah-blah-blah, blah-blah-blah. Answer the question you are asked and that is it, okay.
THE COURT: Sort of like you are doing now?
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So why did you use the word “intelligence” when you testified for Mr. Dandar? I just read you the testimony. “In those areas that I was responsible for, legal, intelligence and PR activities of OSA,” why did you use the word “intelligence”?
A Because I was able to take the eternal words of L. Ron Hubbard that had that on there and show it. I used it because that is what the issue says.
Q And by the way, that is acceptable to you to give truthful but deceptive testimony? That is acceptable to you as you sit here as a so-called expert in Scientology?
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A It is acceptable to me to answer — answer the question that is asked.
Q So I have got to ask the absolutely right question or you can deceive me and there is no problem here? You can deceive me and the Court? And everybody else that is — that is in this room?
A Mmm, well, you know, you can call it deception or you can call it inadequate lawyering. I mean, I don’t know. What do you want to say about it?
Q Well, have you had any of those answers while you have been on the stand, those truthful but deceptive answers? Can you think of a couple where we just missed the question a little bit?
A You know, Mr. Weinberg, I think I’m making a valiant effort here to keep perspective and keep things in perspective. And I think I have gone overboard in explaining my rationale.
THE COURT: The question is, Mr. Prince, is there any time in this hearing you have not told the absolute whole truth, that is what the oath is, the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth?
THE WITNESS: No, there is not.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you testified, I think — correct me if I’m
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wrong — a number of times that — that Mr. Miscavige was deeply involved in the activities of you and Ms. Aznaran at the RTC and that — and that you and her reported to Mr. Miscavige when you were there. Is that right?
A Mmm, partially right. I — I don’t — don’t remember saying Miscavige was deeply involved with me and Mrs. Aznaran in RTC. I don’t remember —
THE COURT: He did say he reported —
THE WITNESS: Yes, but the other part, I —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Let’s make it clear because that is actually the question I wanted to ask you. You said — you testified under oath you reported to David Miscavige while you were DIG external at RTC?
A I — ultimately, I did report to him, yes.
THE COURT: Frankly, I think he said he reported to Vicki Aznaran.
MR. WEINBERG: I’m just asking him now — we’ll, I’ll read you what he said.
THE COURT: You have to read him what he says because I can’t even remember, myself.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q This is actually the real transcript, Page 342, lines 19 through 25. And this is in response to a question from Mr. Dandar. And you say: “Answer: So you know from
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the –”
THE COURT: Read the question.
MR. WEINBERG: That is what I’m trying to find.
There was a lot of interruptions.
MR. DANDAR: Well, that is surprising!
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Mr. Prince just starts talking. There was — there was dialogue about the Clearwater Police Department.
THE COURT: Well, let me hear what it is you are wanting to read to him, then we’ll see if he can remember this testimony.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Okay.
“Answer: So you know from the limited time that I was there in Religious Technology Center myself, I know that — you know, there wasn’t much about the Flag Service Organization I didn’t know about and also had responsibilities for to make sure the whole thing ran smoothly, and the person that I reported to was certainly the — ultimately was Mr. Miscavige.”
That is what you said?
A Correct. That doesn’t mean to the exclusion of Mrs. Aznaran who was my direct —
Q No, I didn’t — wasn’t suggesting that.
A Okay.
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Q Now, if you’ll go to — by the way, did you also report to Marty Rathbun back then?
A Yes. Yes.
Q If you go to Page 52 of the Yanny deposition, please —
A Was that 52, Mr. Weinberg?
Q Yes, 52.
A Okay.
Q Look at Line 15 through 19.
“Question –” were you asked these questions and gave these answers under oath.
“Question: Back in this ’84, ’86 time period did you ever have an occasion to report to Marty Rathbun?
“Answer: No.
“Question: Did you ever report to David Miscavige?
“Answer: No.”
A Right.
Q Were you asked those questions, did you give those answers?
A Yes, I did.
Q Were those truthful answers?
A No, they were not.
Q So you perjured yourself?
A Correct.
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THE COURT: I honestly don’t want you to use the word “perjury.” Perjury is a term of law.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
THE COURT: Lie would be fine.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, I have had judges tell me not to use lie because it is inflammatory.
THE COURT: If that were in front of a jury, that may be true, but for me in this particular proceeding perjury is a term of law.
MR. WEINBERG: Fine.
THE COURT: If you say is that a lie, that would be fine.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Was that a lie?
A Yes, it was.
Q And did somebody instruct you to lie?
A Yes. Again, Mr. Earle Cooley, Mr. Rathbun.
Again, I’m being a good Scientologist and I’m protecting Scientology.
Q And you’re not being a good anti-Scientologist as you sit on the stand in this proceeding and write affidavits and stuff like that, correct?
A I’m sorry, I didn’t understand the question.
Q Well, is there a code of ethics for people like you that are part of the anti-Scientology movement?
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MR. DANDAR: I’ll object to the phrase “Anti-Scientology movement.” I don’t know if that has been established anywhere.
THE COURT: I think you need to save that for another time.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Is there a code of ethics, did you and members of the A team and those people that were carrying the signs for the Lisa McPherson Trust that we saw that video yesterday, was there some code of ethics as to what you guys were going to do when you were under oath?
A Mr. Weinberg, no one carried a sign for the Lisa McPherson Trust. You know, you make it impossible for me to answer these questions when you draw these conclusions and inferences that simply are just not true.
Q Well —
THE COURT: So the question is, was there a code of ethics that you and Mr. Minton and —
MR. WEINBERG: Ms. Brooks.
THE COURT: — Ms. Brooks developed when you were to testify?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: In this proceeding?
THE WITNESS: No. The answer to the question,
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your Honor, is no.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you have testified again today about the RPF and I believe that on direct — and I’ll read you your testimony if you don’t remember it, but I believe that you have referred to the RPF as being a concentration camp or something like that, correct?
THE COURT: Prison camp.
A Prison camp.
MR. WEINBERG: Actually, in this transcript it says concentration camp on Page 456.
THE COURT: I heard prison camp for sure.
Prison, concentration camp, I guess they’re all the same.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, actually —
THE COURT: They’re not.
MR. WEINBERG: In my mind a concentration camp brings images of Nazi Germany, and a prison camp, you know, we have them in Florida. But —
MR. DANDAR: Well, Japanese had concentration camps in the United States. We had —
MR. WEINBERG: I’m not even going there.
MR. DANDAR: There must be a difference.
THE COURT: Maybe not to this particular witness. He may not — not make a distinction.
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THE WITNESS: Well, actually, your Honor, I think there is a distinction in that I think the Rehabilitation Project Force is more akin to a concentration camp in that part of the program is to have not — not only to have a mind-altering experience, but to have a total revamping of the way you were before.
THE COURT: Okay. So you refer to it as a concentration camp?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q By the way, did you lose a lot of weight when you were in the RPF?
A Which time?
Q I mean, did you get meals?
A Which time?
Q You said you were in twice, I believe.
A Right. So you mean both times?
THE COURT: Either time.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Either time.
A The first time I lost weight dramatically. I think I got down to 144 pounds because we weren’t allowed to eat regular food, we had to eat fruit and — and protein supplement called Progest. Then we had to run around with
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plastic suits on our body to, quote/unquote, get the impurities out. This is all we were allowed to eat is fruit and Progest.
Q That was in the ’70s?
A That was ’77.
Q So then in ’87 when, you know, everything came down on you and you got —
A I lost weight there, too, yes.
Q Were you running around drinking protein drinks and wearing sweat suits?
A No, not the second time.
Q Now, you testified that you were — let me quote — “forcibly,” quote/unquote, that is what you said here, “removed from the RTC.” That is what you said on the stand.
A Yes.
Q Do you remember that? Now, when you said forcibly, what — what were you referring to?
A Well, I was referring to a couple of things.
Prior to assuming any position as a board member in the Scientology conglomerate, the one thing that you’re asked to do in order to have this position is to sign an undated resignation.
After signing an undated resignation, then you are allowed to be a corporate officer, on the board of directors
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or — or some such like that, you know, having to do with corporate matters.
So I was a — on the board of directors of the Religious Technology Center. I was the treasurer. But when I was graced with that position I also at that time had to sign an undated resignation. Again, I was woken up at I guess 5 o’clock in the morning with 12 people in — security guards wearing uniforms like they’re on a mission, and I was told that I was removed, I was shown my undated resignation so that, you know — and this is a legal process. And apparently this is a problem that they had, but I won’t diverge, but this and this, and I was told, “You stand up, you call me sir.”
Miscavige wanted me to do that, and I didn’t want to do it.
So they grabbed me and they started jumping me.
Q All right. That is the gun thing?
A Right.
Q The gun thing?
A Right. We talked about that yesterday.
THE COURT: Are you also talking about the fact your resignation was filled in, is that what you considered part of forcible removal? Or not?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: So when you mentioned that, that is also part of your forcibly removed because it was
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filled in and, therefore, you were removed?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you understood when Scientology reorganized in the early ’80s and created RTC and CSI and a variety of other corporations, you understood that there was a corporate structure then that was very clear and defined in corporate documents, correct?
A Before —
Q You understood that?
A Before or after — I guess — there was a corporate structure before they created RTC, CSI, all these other corporations?
Q No, I said you understood in the early ’80s, the Church of Scientology reorganized with a new corporate structure —
A Right.
Q — including the RTC, CSI, which was the mother church, and all the churches under them. You understood that, right?
A Yes. Yes.
Q And there was a very detailed corporate structure with — with articles of incorporation and various agreements that set forth clearly the corporate way in which various — Scientology would be run, correct?
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A Correct.
Q And that was the wish and desire of L. Ron Hubbard, who was still alive that that happened, that there be this reorganization of the church?
A You know, I can’t say that that is true. I can’t —
THE COURT: Who would care? The idea there was a corporate reorganization, surely this is going somewhere.
MR. WEINBERG: It is going somewhere.
THE COURT: Get there.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q The RTC was composed of a board of directors.
Correct?
A That was part of it, sure.
Q And there were trustees?
A Correct.
Q In fact, there were trustees in every Scientology corporation, correct?
A Well, I came to learn that in 1987. But you are correct.
Q Well, you learned when you joined RTC that there were trustees, there were three trustees?
A No. No. No.
Q Well, what you learned is that the trustees had
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one function, correct, and that is to — that is to — to name or remove directors. You understood that, didn’t you?
A No, sir.
Q And you were removed in 1987, along with Ms. Aznaran, by the trustees of RTC, one of which was Mr. Miscavige, correct?
A Incorrect. I was removed by one person, only one person’s will, on one person’s authority, and that was Mr. Miscavige.
Q Was he one of the trustees of RTC?
A Yes. And this got explained to me as he was doing this. You know, he — you know, and I guess I was a bit naive, you know, I didn’t know. I wasn’t a corporate person. I’m not trained, you know.
And he explained it to me very well. He said, “Look, I am a trustee. Norman is a trustee.” I think Marty may have been a trustee or Steve Marlowe may have been a trustee. I’m not sure. And he explained to me how it worked.
And he said, “Here is your undated resignation and you have officially resigned and this is how it works and we have the authority to do that.” And at that point I was cognizant of how it worked.
Q Are you saying that for the five years that you were in RTC and for the three or so that you were a board
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member and, you said, the number two person at RTC, you didn’t know that there were trustees that had the ability to — to remove you?
A Correct.
Q But you are an expert on the corporate structure of Scientology?
A I have never said I am an expert on the corporate structure of Scientology, Mr. Weinberg. I said that I am an expert in the — in the policies, bulletins and issues that are Scientology. That is Scientology.
Q If you go to Page 16 of your deposition —
THE COURT: Which deposition?
MR. WEINBERG: I’m sorry, the Yanny deposition.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q The —
A I’m not quite there.
Q Okay.
A Okay. I’m there.
Q Okay, Line 4, question — were you asked these questions and did you give these answers — and you will see there is one date that is wrong, but it is wrong in the transcript, and I think you — it didn’t affect the question.
“Question — Line 4 were you asked this question, “October of ’83 to March of ’87 you were deputy inspector
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general for external affairs.
“Answer: That’s right.
“Question: Was Vicki Aznaran your senior during that entire course of time?
“Answer: Yes.
“Question: Were you out at Gilman Hot Springs?
“Answer: Gilman Hot Springs and Los Angeles.
“Question: What was your next position then in March of ’83.”
That would be obviously March of ’87, I think you understand that by your answer. And did you give this answer.
“Answer: Then I went to the RPF for three months, probably three and a half. Then I was an auditor. I was an auditor at Golden Era, the same place at Gilman Hot Springs, for a while.
“Question: For about three and a half months starting in March of ’83 –” but it is ’87 — “you were in the RPF again?
“Answer: Yes.”
Then I’ll skip to Page 17. Top of the page. Line 3 were you asked this question and gave this answer: “What were the circumstances of your transferring from RTC to Golden Era Productions?
“Answer: Well, when I was in RTC I wanted to go to the RPF because I needed more training. I needed — I
766
just needed more skill than I presently had. And that afforded me an opportunity to do that because I could go five hours a day, so I did that and also got auditing, co-audited and life audited, because I audited practically my whole career in Scientology. So I decided to audit for a while.”
Do you see that?
A Yes, I do.
Q Were you asked those questions, did you give those answers?
A Yes, I did.
Q So that was false testimony?
A This was coached testimony by Mr. Earle Cooley, Mr. Rathbun, for the purpose of deposition with Mr. Yanny.
Q So is that a definite category —
THE COURT: That was also false, correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You were coached by who?
THE WITNESS: Mr. Earle Cooley and Mr. Marty Rathbun.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, that deposition — you were asked questions by whom in that deposition?
A You know, I don’t know. I — I don’t know.
THE COURT: Take a look at the front. It
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should say who was representing Mr. Yanny. Did you give him the front page?
MR. WEINBERG: I gave him the whole deposition. If I could approach, I think I could show him.
THE COURT: Okay.
A Cummings & White. Is that who it was?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Barry Van Sickle. Do you remember Barry Van Sickle?
A Not really.
Q But do you remember this was a deposition, now that we refreshed your recollection, the questions were being asked by Mr. Yanny’s lawyer, not by Mr. Cooley, the ones we went over.
A Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: Just one second, your Honor. I need to move some stuff and get some other stuff.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, going to a different subject now, Mr. Prince.
A Are we finished with this?
Q Yes, let me take that back.
THE COURT: Why don’t you go ahead and give that, then, to Mr. Dandar.
MR. WEINBERG: I will.
THE COURT: That will save you all from having to copy it.
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MR. WEINBERG: Is this our only copy? No, we have other copies.
MR. DANDAR: You do have another copy?
MR. WEINBERG: Apparently, somewhere back at the ranch.
THE COURT: But you can go ahead and make yourselves a copy and he can have that one?
MR. WEINBERG: Right. Right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, let’s go back to the LMT now. And I think you said a minute ago that I had some misconception of the LMT and picketing. Did I hear you say that?
A Mmm, that is quite possible, yes.
THE COURT: What he said, Counselor, was that you were suggesting that they were picketing on behalf of LMT, and that wasn’t exactly correct.
THE WITNESS: That is right. That’s right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q But the — part of the purpose — part of what the LMT did in 1999 and 2000 was to picket various buildings of the Church of Scientology?
A You know, Mr. Weinberg, I hear you saying that.
But with every video that you have shown here and you have related to the LMT, there are LMT staff that have never picketed, never wanted to, never would, and would not
769
participate —
THE COURT: Mr. Prince, this is really simple.
Really the question is here, and I don’t think it is that difficult, one of the things that LMT did, those folks who were at LMT, was to picket when they thought it appropriate.
THE WITNESS: Yes, occasionally they would.
THE COURT: Exercising their rights, whatever you want to call it.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: They would at times organize a picket and go picket the Church.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, in January of 2000 you were the consultant, expert, working with Ken Dandar in this case, right?
A Correct.
Q And you were also working in the Wollersheim case, as well, at that time?
A Mmm, more than likely, yes.
Q And you were also vice-president at the LMT?
A Well, we already did LMT. You said I was at the LMT. And I was working with Mr. Dandar. There are two things.
Q I’m focusing on the time, January of —
770
A Okay.
Q — 2000, you were the expert for Mr. Dandar —
A Yes, I was the expert for Mr. Dandar, but I don’t think that I immediately assumed work at the Lisa McPherson Trust. I don’t think that is how it happened.
Q Now, I asked you yesterday about you being the big boss at the LMT?
A Yes.
Q And you said no.
A Correct.
MR. WEINBERG: Could we play that video, please.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q By the way, do you remember a situation where Mr. Minton handed out parrots to various members at the LMT as Christmas gifts so that — indicating — rather, whether you are a big parrot or little parrot, squawking at Scientology, do you remember that happening?
A I think you are referring to a newspaper — a press that Mr. Minton had — had done and that came up —
THE COURT: Did he give you all parrots?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Little ones.
MR. WEINBERG: All right, could we play this?
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This is from the film library, January 5, 2000.
______________________________________
(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“I have a little presentation, a little sort of Christmas present for the people who are associated with the Lisa McPherson Trust who have made all this possible. Some of you may be aware that back in December a guy named Dave — no, Rick Barry wrote an article in the Tampa Tribune about — I think the headline was ‘Bob Minton, will he rouse the gorilla?’
“Yes. Yes.
“But the real headline is ‘Lisa McPherson Trust, will they rouse the gorilla.’ And in that article, he referred to — in terms of the gorilla, first of all, he was talking about how this gorilla came to Clearwater 25 years ago, 800-pound gorilla, set himself down in the middle of Clearwater, began buying influence, began buying property, and for the last 25 years they have basically made themselves a force in this community by buying people off one at a time.
“And the — the question that Mr. Barry raised in this article was whether, you know, this small band of parrots would be able to, you know, make a
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difference here in terms of changing the way that this — that this organization is perceived in this community and in terms of the way this organization behaves in this community.
“Well, I remember a good friend of mine, Mark DeLarma, who you all know, said, ‘You thought that was a good article? He, like, called you guys parrots.’ I said, ‘I thought it was a great article.’
“So did I.
“Because it really expressed in a very vivid way how the Lisa McPherson Trust was going to change the way this community interacts and perceives Scientology. And how Scientology will have to — if they want to be healthful here, start acting like an organization that is a church if they want to be called a church.
“So I figured that the first thing that the Lisa McPherson Trust had to do is we had to set up a little — Mmm — mascot for this organization. And everybody who is part of it. So for the first — the first group of — of Christmas presents are for those people who will be based here as part of the organization day in and day out.
“And so the first of those goes — goes to —
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this is my little parrot that we want to have, the staff members of the Lisa McPherson Trust, and the most famous staff member of all is — is Stacy Brooks.
“There you go.
“The president and chief operating — executive officer.
“The next one — the next one, the same parrot, you know, the same parrot, goes to Jesse Prince, the boss of the whole thing. Who we all love.
“Thank you, Bobby.
“And the — and the third — the third of the fifth parrots goes to Mark Bunker, the multimedia king of the world.
“Sweet.
“Who is doing everything he can to keep a straight face while this is going on.
“There is one for me. I want to keep that.
“And then when David gets here, this is for David Cecere. And I have another parrot which is not currently in waiting here, but that is for Kim Baker when she arrives.
“So we’ve got plenty of parrots.
“We’re not done.
“We’re not done. You know — you know, I mean,
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so I would like to make a recommendation that we adopt this parrot as the mascot of the Lisa McPherson Trust so that everybody knows that we are going to make a lot of noise, we’re going to be squawking about what Scientology does in terms of harming people and their abusive and deceptive practices, and we’re going to, as little parrots, we’re going to make a lot of noise and drop a lot of stuff that parrots — come out the back end and help these guys learn the way to behave. Okay?
“So —
“Bravo.
“So now — now — now we have little parrots. We have little parrots for all of the big people who have made all this possible. And the first and most important little parrot goes to Patricia because — because what Patricia has done, to help everybody who is down here, get themselves down here and get them settled in and make them feel comfortable in this — in this whole environment, which is not an easy place for — for former Scientologists to come to. You know, they have been willing to stick their neck out and come down here and really make this organization happen. And so Patricia has really made everybody feel comfortable, she’s — she’s sort
775
of like —
“She chased PIs into the bathroom for me.
“Yes, and you — you know — so I — I want Patricia to have a parrot.
“Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.
“Ray Emmons has been teaching us all for — and a lot of people didn’t listen for a long time, how this organization really operates. And he did this in Clearwater. He made himself known nationwide in terms of his opposition to Scientology. And the type of organization that they really are underneath the surface. And so I want Ray to know that he’s a parrot, as well. You have been a parrot for a long time.
“Okay.
“Let me have a kiss here, Patricia, because I didn’t do that. Thank you so much.
“The order of the parrot.
“The order of the parrot. This is like the highest award that the Lisa McPherson Trust can bestow upon somebody.
“Now, you know, Peter Alexander has been squawking about Scientology for a long time, even when he was in it, especially toward the end of the time he was in it, when he was — when he was —
776
when he was being squawked at by Patricia — you know, rather regularly. So — and Peter has allowed Patricia particularly to devote so much time and energy into helping this organization get off the ground.
“And I just want you to know, Peter, that we’re totally thankful for your help and support in this organization, your being on the board. And I really want all of us to know that this is an incredibly tight-knit little group, and got a lot of hard work to do here in Clearwater. But with people like all of us here and you, Peter, thank you so much for doing this. And I want to present you with a little parrot.
“Yes.
“Thank you, sir. Thank you.
“And I want to — I want to —
“The order of the parrots.
“The order of the parrots.
“I want to talk to you about a theme park.
“Yeah. Yeah.
“Now, the next parrot — the next parrot is for Duncan Pierce, you know, our national coordinator. Our national coordinator.
“Oh, my God.
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“Duncan has been abused by Stacy so much in the last few months that he really deserves a big parrot. But because he’s not here on the staff in the office every day, he can’t get a big parrot, you know, it’s just not part —
“The big parrot —
“Look at Peter.
“It’s — you know, the problem is —
“Patricia? Look at Patricia.
“The problem is it is not in the tech. He can’t have a big parrot. But —
“The standard tech.
“Yeah. Yeah. But — but Duncan has done so much to get us off the ground, as well.
“I don’t know what I would do without him.
“It is amazing. The thing is there are so many people that have really pushed so hard to get this thing going. And, you know, there is no recognition for us. You know, we get abused a lot on the Internet. Our demise has already been scripted by, you know, anti-cult and Diane Richardson. Fine, let them squawk all they want. But the real squawking will be done here in Clearwater by a bunch of parrots. And Duncan is one of those parrots. (Inaudible.)
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“Then for the — and the person who lives the furtherest from Clearwater, Grady Ward, who is standing right here, we have another parrot, because Mr. Ward — Mr. Ward is — is our security expert here. And already — and already during the course of this day he has learned a lot about security. (Inaudible.)
“Yeah, don’t tell me about it. But I can tell you some things about Grady personally because — (Inaudible.)
“Because one of the things that really got me involved in this thing was Grady Ward. And Grady’s stand against Scientology, you know, back in 1995 or — early ’96 when he started going after them directly after they sued him, he went after them as his own attorney, you know. You know what they say about guys who are their own attorney.
“It is perfectly true.
“And it is perfectly true. Grady will be the first to tell you he had no expertise, no competence whatsoever. But he — he studied the law. He studied what Scientology was doing. He — he learned so much about it. And has become a really good legal man in terms of fighting Scientology. And I — you know, I — I can’t — I can’t imagine
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somebody having the patience to understand and go through and traveling back and forth from Arcadia, California, eight hours to San Francisco in his car and memorizing the Rules of Civil Procedure. You know, while he’s going back and forth. And I mean memorizing so he knows every paragraph, every subparagraph, whatever. And — (Inaudible.)
“You know, if you talk about a parrot, then this guy is a parrot. And I want to give — I want to give this guy who is a shining example for many people on the Internet in terms of standing up to somebody who is trying to curtail free speech on the Internet, I want Grady to have this parrot as a symbol of our love for him and his contribution to this whole battle.
“Thank you very much. “Thank you, Grady. Thank you.
“And — and now. (Inaudible.)
“And now this other parrot, I forgot to tell you. I told you this was mine. And this parrot is mine because all of you gave me this parrot and I really appreciate it. So —
“Something about Rob and why he gets a parrot,
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because if it weren’t for him, none of us would be here.
“Absolutely.
“None of us.
“For sure.
“There is nothing else to say.
“Bob is the big parrot.
“Definitely.
“Oh, but this is not all. Oh, some of the best stuff is — some of the best is saved for last. Well, what I would like everybody —
“He’s big with presents, you can see that.
“What I would like everybody to do, if you put the parrots around in a little circle here, if you put the parrots around in a little circle there. (Inaudible.)
“Right, don’t anybody forget — don’t anybody forget — don’t anybody forget. But, you know what the parrots are supposed to do, don’t you? We’re going to get the gorilla. And I didn’t want you to think I forgot about that gorilla. So this gorilla is going to sit right there.
“Whew.
“Don’t dump on the gorilla. Come on. But — but that is what this is all about here.
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little parrots and some of us big parrots here, we’re going to be here and we’re going to make sure this gorilla behaves.
“We’re going to educate this gorilla and —
“We’re going to put the — we’re going to put the gorilla in the cage or the jungle, wherever it belongs.
“We’re going to turn this gorilla into a parrot.
“Yeah, this gorilla is going to be cooperating with us.
“In any case, everybody can take their parrot back now. And I’ll keep the gorilla, so when we have it on the desk out there, it will be —
“Yes, a constant reminder.
“Yes, as a constant reminder of what we need to do.”
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Bring back memories, Mr. Prince?
A Very fond memories. I’m so sorry that that place doesn’t exist anymore.
MR. DANDAR: I’ll object because we just went through that long video and with the — the question was — to Mr. Prince, “Mr. Prince, were you called or did you call yourself a big boss at the LMT,” and
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that is not what that video showed. Mr. Minton called Mr. Prince a boss of the whole thing. So — so whatever Mr. Weinberg’s question was was not supported by the video.
THE COURT: Well, it certainly is a video that he could play at some other time so he played it now.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
THE COURT: But it is true, he was not called a big boss —
MR. WEINBERG: He was called the boss of the whole thing.
THE COURT: But I think Mr. Minton made it clear he was the big boss.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, Mr. Prince, I asked you a lot of questions about what the Lisa McPherson Trust was about. That meeting there was initially the start-up meeting of the Lisa McPherson Trust, wasn’t it? It is essentially right at the beginning?
A I think so. You know, I think you are right about that.
Q Right. And Mr. Minton made it very clear what it was about, squawking about Scientology. That is what the
783
Lisa McPherson Trust was about, wasn’t it?
A No, sir. It was about making Scientology behave.
I think that was also part of this video. Just to behave. Be decent.
Q Putting the gorilla in the cage? Was that what it was about?
A Or in the jungle, wherever it belonged.
Q What does that mean, “or in the jungle, wherever it belonged”?
A Well, it means everything has its place, Mr. Weinberg. And there is hardly anything sinister about what we just watched here.
Q “We’re going to make a lot of noise,” that means you are going to disrupt the activities of the Church of Scientology in Clearwater, right?
A No, Mr. Weinberg. That means that we’re going to expose the deceptive and abusive practices of Scientology and help those who have been victimized by it. That is what we were talking about there.
Q And at that time when you got the second parrot for being the boss of the whole thing, you were supposedly the full-time expert for Ken Dandar, correct?
A I was working for Mr. Dandar as his expert. I wouldn’t go as far as to say full-time. I mean, even you brought up the fact I was working on the Wollersheim case,
784
as well, simultaneously.
Q We’ll get to the — we’ll get — I’ll ask you one question. From June of ’99 until May of 2000 you were getting $5,000 a month from Dandar & Dandar?
A I think the record reflects that, Mr. Weinberg.
Q And this was in that period of time, wasn’t it, this parrot thing?
A I believe it was.
Q Now, you saw this meeting and you were at a number of meetings with Mr. Minton, correct, over the years? You have been with him a lot?
A Yes, I have been with him a lot.
Q And in this particular meeting and others that you were in, Mr. Minton was pretty outspoken, outgoing, he would take over, right? He would speak his piece? He was in control?
A No. Mr. Minton is not that way. That is the biggest myth. You know, Mr. Minton has exact things that he likes to do and he does them. I mean, I learned a lot from him myself. You know, I have never had millions upon millions of dollars myself. I have never been able to help people the way he has been able to help people. He has a different agenda, a different track. Unfortunately, in some instances he has a very short attention span.
And he never, in any instance, ever wants to be
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the person that is the leader. I mean, he doesn’t — he doesn’t do that. You know, if you want to do it, great. If what you want to do makes sense, great, he’ll support you.
But he’s not going to tell you how to do it.
Q So this was just an aberration?
A No, this was — it was clear what this was.
Mr. Minton was showing his appreciation to persons like Patricia Greenway, myself, Peter Alexander, Duncan Pierce, for helping organize and make the people feel welcome at the Lisa McPherson Trust and helping us be a social — be a social reform group, if nothing else, in order to ultimately help Scientology.
Q By the way, did he look harassed? Did he look like a man that was under some wave of harassment unknown to mankind?
A Actually, he looked like a man giving a speech to a group of people.
Q It looked like he was — that was in the Lisa McPherson Trust building, correct?
A Correct.
Q It looked like all of you, Ms. Greenway, you, Mr. —
THE COURT: What difference does that make they were having fun at the LMT? When gifts were given out?
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MR. WEINBERG: All right. I’ll go on.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Let me ask you a question about Ray Emmons, the guy that put the parrot on his head.
A I know Ray Emmons well.
Q Now, Mr. Emmons had been a Clearwater police officer and had done an investigation of the Church of Scientology in the ’80s, is that right?
A Yes, I believe that is correct.
Q And Mr. Emmons has been and continues to be the investigator for Ken Dandar in this case, you know that?
A I know that Mr. Dandar has used him to do service of process or locate witnesses and things like that.
Q Now, what was Mr. Emmons’ position at the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A I don’t think he had a position. He may have been on the board of directors, which was huge and basically was a friends list. But as far as an official position or coming into that office on a daily basis to work or accomplish a specific task, that was never anything that he did.
MR. WEINBERG: I have a couple E-Mails — or postings I was going to put in, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. I want to take a break here in five minutes, so if it will take more than
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that, break now. If not, go ahead and do those and we’ll take a break.
MR. WEINBERG: I think we can do those in five minutes. I mean, it is just identifying them.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: These are actually E-Mails, I’m told. I have trouble telling the difference.
THE COURT: Yes, I don’t know the difference, either. If they’re up there on the screen and people can read it, to me, it’s an E-Mail.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay, your Honor, this is 223. I didn’t write the number on it.
THE COURT: Okay, I’ll do it.
MR. WEINBERG: And this is 224.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I’m going to hand you the originals. We’ll put them back when we’re done.
A Okay.
Q All right. If you’ll look at first, Mr. Prince, 223.
A 223? Which one is 223?
Q That is the —
A Okay, I have it here.
Q That is the Jeff Jacobsen —
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THE COURT: It is the long one.
THE WITNESS: Yes, okay.
MR. WEINBERG: I’m really only referring to —
I — we just received these from the Lisa McPherson Trust. I have attached the whole thing, your Honor, but the only page that — that — this is part of the E-Mails that were produced.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: But really what I’m focusing on is the first page.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Mr. Prince, you can look at it all, but I don’t know if the rest — sometimes it comes off the computer and —
THE COURT: Who is this from?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q If you look at this, Mr. Prince, this is from Jeff Jacobsen to you and Mr. Bunker and Stacy Brooks. Who is Karen Case?
A She used to be a person hired specifically to work as public relations.
Q And this is dated August 2, 2000. Is that right?
A Well, you know, okay.
Q Do you see that?
A Yes. I do.
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Q And this is — do you remember having meetings about things that needed to be done at the Lisa McPherson Trust?
MR. DANDAR: Well, Judge, I have to object.
This is not Mr. Prince’s E-Mail so I don’t know how he can question him about some hearsay document authored by somebody that is not here.
THE COURT: Well, I think he can state whether or not this is accurate or not.
MR. WEINBERG: It is to him.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You received this, right, Mr. Prince?
A I have no memory of this.
MR. DANDAR: Which one are you on?
MR. WEINBERG: He’s copied on the E-Mail, it is addressed to him.
THE WITNESS: I don’t even know what this is.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q It is an E-Mail to you.
A Okay.
Q Among other people. All right?
A Okay.
Q What it says, “This is a list of things we talked about, elaborated on by me.”
Now, Mr. Jacobsen was also part of the Lisa
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McPherson Trust, correct?
A Yes, he was.
Q In fact, in some of those videos yesterday you saw Mr. Jacobsen in it with a camera himself?
A No, I did not see that yesterday, but —
Q Oh. He did take — he took videos from time to time, didn’t I?
A Yes.
Q Do you know why those videos haven’t been turned over, by the way, his, Mr. Jacobsen’s?
A No, I do not. Were they asked for?
THE COURT: Don’t ask him what he knows or doesn’t know about something like that.
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll ask it a different way.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you know where the videos that he took are?
A No, I do not.
Q Were they kept at the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A I don’t know what he did with his personal videos.
Q But, anyway, this — this — this E-Mail talks about a list of things we talked about, 1, speeches, radio talk shows. 2, picket. 3, press releases. 4, press conferences. 5, help with investigations by EEOC, DEB. 6, the library open for public use. 7, concert November 11. 8, newsletter. 9, attend city council meetings,
791
participate. 10, put up a sign for the office outside. 11, ads in local newspaper. 12, support group. 13, radiofree Clearwater.”
Now, that is 13 things that the Lisa McPherson Trust, I assume, prioritized to do. Not one says anything about counseling, does it?
A You know, I think you are mischaracterizing this E-Mail to somehow reflect or — or be a staple for the activities of the Lisa McPherson Trust, and what this is is just simply an E-Mail of Jeff writing. I have no recollection of it whatsoever and I don’t even remember what it relates to at this point in time.
I mean, I literally have had thousands of E-Mails, Mr. Weinberg. I’m not trying to be uncooperative, I’m trying to cooperate in the spirit, but what you are asking me has no perspective. You are tying this into the Lisa McPherson Trust and it just doesn’t make sense to me.
Q Well, does it make sense to you one of the priorities of the Lisa McPherson Trust was pickets? Does that make sense to you?
A No, not at all.
THE COURT: This is really — in fairness, this is a statement from somebody about some meeting and, frankly, you don’t have to persuade me that the Lisa McPherson Trust picketed. I don’t know why you just
792
keep badgering that home. I know what he’s going to say, you know what he’s going to say. It is me that is in charge of this hearing, and I’m persuaded, but the point was not picketing, it was counseling, wasn’t on the list.
You know, that is unfair to suggest because somebody writes a letter with things they talked about on a given day of things that needed to be done, you can hardly assume putting a sign outside is a primary — is something that needs to be done.
It doesn’t say this is our purpose. I mean, fair is fair, Counselor. And that is not fair to suggest that those are the purposes of the LMT.
MR. WEINBERG: I move it into evidence, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. It will be received. It will be received, although it is only being received for the fact that — that we have a bunch of E-mails.
MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
THE COURT: — that I have let in.
MR. WEINBERG: Then 224 quickly is an E-Mail that —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Is this a posting or E-Mail, 224, Mr. Prince?
793
A I have no idea.
Q Well, this is something that you —
A There is no “to”.
THE COURT: It says it is from you.
THE WITNESS: Yes, is this a note to myself? I don’t know what it is.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you recognize this as something that you did?
THE COURT: Who is Mark? I know there is a Mark.
THE WITNESS: You know, there are lots of Marks.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I think it is pretty clear, the message at the bottom is a Mark Bunker passage. Then —
A The message at the bottom? Oh, I see what you are saying.
Q Do you see?
A Okay.
Q And my question to you is, your advice was, “With regard to the Lisa McPherson Trust, contact Ken Dandar.”
That is what it says, correct?
A Absolutely not.
Q That is not what it says?
MR. DANDAR: I’ll object. It doesn’t say that,
794
either.
A No.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Are you saying, “In the meantime, I recommend you contact U.S. attorney Kennan G. Dandar,” and give his E-Mail address?
THE COURT: What is the date on that?
MR. WEINBERG: It is November 10, 1999.
THE COURT: Before the trust was formed?
MR. WEINBERG: Right — well, the trust actually had already been formed, remember, it was incorporated and it was in the process of being set up.
A You know, this is a partial thing here from Mark. I can’t tell if somebody wrote in and had a legal question and I’m referring them to Ken Dandar, who is a lawyer that could maybe answer a legal question for them, or whether or not they need assistance or the service the trust has to offer. I can’t tell from this. I can’t draw the inference that somehow this means Ken Dandar is running the Lisa McPherson Trust or anything like that.
MR. WEINBERG: I move it into evidence, your Honor.
MR. DANDAR: I object. It is too partial to make sense.
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THE COURT: I’m going to let it in for whatever value it has, which is little, as to a lot of the other E-Mails, because of the same problem.
MR. WEINBERG: So is this a good time to take a break?
THE COURT: It is a good time to take a break.
We’ll be in recess for 15 minutes. I show it is 25 till. That will be about ten till.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
(WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 10:35 to 10:55 a.m.)
_______________________________________
THE COURT: Okay. I signed the order and I mailed out the copies. But those of you who are here, I’ll give you yours. Mr. Dandar. Here is Mr. Lirot’s, too. I didn’t realize he wasn’t here.
Mr. Moxon, Mr. Lieberman, Mr. Fugate. Always trying to save you all some stamp money.
MR. WEINBERG: Everything counts.
THE COURT: Every little bit counts. That is right.
You may continue.
MR. DANDAR: I returned the envelopes to opposing counsel.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
MR. DANDAR: So they can save their stamps.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, Mr. Prince, you first learned about Bob Minton after watching a television show Dateline in which he appeared and Ms. Brooks appeared in June of ’98?
A That is incorrect.
Q Did you watch a television show before you met Mr. Minton where you learned about him?
A No, I did not.
Q How did you learn about Mr. Minton?
A Through Mrs. Brooks.
Q So she just reached out for you, you didn’t reach out for her?
A Well, Mr. Weinberg, I think I spoke on this before but I’ll speak on it again.
I was on vacation in Connecticut. I had been in the cyber coffee cafe. I had gone on the Internet. Do you remember that testimony, Mr. Weinberg?
THE COURT: It was rather elaborate.
A I left my phone number and she called me.
(Telephone interruption.)
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did you ever see the Dateline —
THE COURT: Don’t be sorry to him. Be sorry to me. It is my word that says no phone.
THE WITNESS: I’m sorry, I apologize for the
797
distraction.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did you ever see the television show The Crusader, I think on NBC Dateline, where Mr. Minton was featured about his crusade against Scientology?
A Mmm, more than likely, many months to possibly a year after he had done that program, I’d seen it. But I didn’t see it when it ran on national television.
Q Well, you learned, shortly after your call from Ms. Brooks, that Mr. Minton was a very wealthy person who was handing out a lot of money to people that would work against Scientology, correct?
A That is categorically false.
Q Ms. Brooks didn’t tell you that Mr. Minton had given her and Vaughn a lot of money, including the purchase of a $250,000 home?
A At one point in time Mrs. Brooks did relay the information that Mr. Minton had given her and her husband some money and she explained the circumstances about that.
Q Did a relative tell you about the Dateline show featuring —
THE COURT: A relative of whom?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q A relative of yours tell you about — in or about this time period before you met Mr. Minton — did a relative
798
tell you about having seen this show where Mr. Minton was featured or some friend or some family member?
A A cousin of mine, when I lived in — I guess I must have been still living in Minneapolis and we were in a phone conversation. And she was telling me about a program where she had seen — she had seen concerning Scientology and there was a man that was helping people or somehow got involved in it. She didn’t remember his name. She just remembered — and, you know, as it is with my family, if they see something about Scientology on TV, they tell me about it when I speak to them.
Q Was that before you communicated with Ms. Brooks?
A I believe it was.
Q So when you learned about Ms. Brooks, you already knew about Mr. Minton?
A As I said, she didn’t know Mr. Minton’s name. All she related was, “I saw a story on TV about Scientology and the different things that they do. And there was a man that was helping people that had been in Scientology before.”
Q And did you research, prior to hearing from Ms. Brooks, did you research to learn who this guy was and what he was doing for people who had been in Scientology?
A No. I had not.
Q Now, when did you learn, after communicating with Ms. Brooks, how wealthy Mr. Minton was?
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A When I spoke to him.
Q And how long after you talked to Ms. Brooks did you talk to Mr. Minton?
A Mmm, maybe a month. Maybe two months.
Q So I was under the impression that on this trip — I guess I’m wrong — this trip to Connecticut, that you went from Connecticut right up to Mr. Minton’s house after talking to Ms. Brooks?
A No, that is incorrect, Mr. Weinberg.
Q So you went home after that?
A Correct.
Q And you stayed in touch —
A Oh, no, no, I’m sorry, you know, because it is so important to make sure the record is correct. From Connecticut, I flew to Ohio and met with Mrs. Brooks and Mr. Haney.
Q And was it at that time that you were given a new car?
A No. No. It was not. And I was never given a new car by anyone.
Q Somebody purchased it? Mr. Minton purchased a new car for you or caused a new car to be purchased for you?
A No. That is incorrect.
Q Well, how did you get the $23,000 Rodeo vehicle?
A I never got a $23,000 Rodeo. I had use of a
800
$23,000 Rodeo but that $23,000 Rodeo belonged to FACTNet, and when I terminated my employment with them, that car stayed with FACTNet. You understand?
Q Now, that was purchased where, the car?
A In —
THE COURT: Where like what dealer? What city?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q What city? What city?
A You know, I don’t remember the name of the city.
Q But it was in Ohio, that area, either Minneapolis or Ohio, correct?
A Correct.
Q And did —
A Well, wait a minute. Let me not do this thing because you accused me of this earlier. It was in Minneapolis specifically. I know the specific answer. I’m not going to play charades here with you. It was in a place near Minneapolis, a city that was near Minneapolis, and I don’t specifically recall the name of the city.
Q And it was purchased new, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you and who went to pick it up at the dealer?
A Mmm, a friend of mine — Mmm — took me — drove me to the dealership to pick it up.
Q And did you have a check with you? How was it
801
paid for?
A No. I didn’t have a check.
Q Ms. Brooks took care of paying for the car? Is that what happened?
A No. Ms. Brooks did not — well, you know, I don’t think so. But quite factually, I don’t know who — how that part of it happened.
Q There just happened to be a new car waiting for you at the dealership?
A No. They needed a vehicle for FACTNet. You know, let me — if you have patience with me, I’ll tell you the — what happened there.
They needed a car in Boulder —
Q Boulder, Colorado?
A Boulder, Colorado, which is where FACTNet was located. I was going to FACTNet to assist in that organization. The car was purchased. I moved everything that I had in Minneapolis and moved to Boulder, Colorado. I made that move to at least be safe or — or to be around some people that could offer some protection to me, because after I’d contacted Mr. — Mr. Minton, the private investigators started, the threatening letters to sue me from Scientology started. And I was alone in Minneapolis, and it was like, “Okay, come here, we’ll help you, we’ll protect you, we have lawyers,” whatever.
802
Q You were alone and bankrupt in Minneapolis, right?
A I had filed bankruptcy in 1997. I think the year we’re talking about now is 1998.
Q June of 1998. Bankruptcy in November of 1997, right? Your next real job after bankruptcy was to be paid by FACTNet and Mr. Minton, correct?
A That is completely false.
Q Now —
A You want to know what my next job was or you just want to leave it like that.
Q Tell me what your next job was.
A I was self-employed. I had an art business called The Art Guy. I had a kiosk in the mall in downtown Minneapolis. I was making my own money and I was actually doing pretty good for myself.
Q But something encouraged you, prompted you, to pick up and leave Minneapolis and move to Boulder, Colorado, at which time you became associated with FACTNet and started being a paid witness in various Scientology cases, correct?
A I think you have added a little bit of baggage on that. But what actually occurred is I left Minneapolis with my business intact. I had employees in Wisconsin and employees in Minneapolis, and I left and went to Boulder, Colorado.
Q Driving this car?
803
A Correct.
Q And you drove this car for how long? How many months did you drive this new car that somebody paid for that you picked up new?
A Off and on, maybe about three months.
Q Now, after — but before you moved to Boulder, you went to New Hampshire to visit Mr. Minton?
A Yes.
Q And you and who went to New Hampshire to visit Mr. Minton?
A It was just myself.
Q And he flew you to New Hampshire?
A I — I believe the way the scenario worked is Mrs. Brooks arranged flight — airfare, the flight, for me to fly there, yes.
Q Much like she had arranged the car to be purchased?
A I think we’re mixing apples and oranges here because I think I stated earlier in the testimony I’m not quite sure who did that on behalf of FACTNet. That car was purchased in FACTNet’s name. It was never in Jesse Prince’s name, Bob Minton’s name, Stacy Brooks’s name. It was a corporate car. That is the way it was purchased and that is the way it was left.
Q And the person that was financing FACTNet at the
804
time was Bob Minton?
A Mmm, no.
Q Did Mr. — one last question about the car. Did Mr. Haney provide the funds for the car, Brian Haney?
A Not that I’m aware of. But then again, I don’t know the details of it. I know that — I think Mr. Haney did have some association with FACTNet at the time.
Q And what were you seeing Mr. Haney in Ohio about with Ms. Young?
A I mean, I had never known Mr. Haney. I didn’t know who he was. He just happened to be there. I was there to visit with Stacy.
The visit with Stacy — her and I have been associated — associated and friends through Scientology since 1976. She was one of the very first persons that I met when I joined the Sea Org. And we were just happy to see each other. Her ex-husband, Vaughn Young, and I were very good friends. You know, he was an executive and we were friends, and it was — and from leaving Scientology — because when you leave and you are ostracized, people disconnect from you; you are a suppressive person, degraded being, whatever, you don’t have any friends anymore. But to actually encounter someone from Scientology that you knew before that will talk to you because you are not a Scientology is a rare thing.
805
Q Now, the Youngs left in 1989, correct?
A Yes, I assume that, yes.
Q You left in 1992?
A Yes.
Q But you didn’t communicate with the Youngs until Mr. Minton came on the scene in 1998, after you left Scientology, correct?
A I think that is a mischaracterization of my earlier testimony, Mr. Weinberg. Because I think the way I testified, and again I’ll go through the whole thing —
Q No, just answer that question.
A But I wrote an E-mail from a cybercafe that said, “If you know Vaughn Young or Stacy Brooks, please give them my phone number.” Mr. Minton was not part of the equation.
Q My question was you didn’t have any communication with Vaughn or Stacy Young after you left Scientology in 1992 until this cybercafe thing in 1998?
A Correct.
Q As far as you know, they didn’t reach out for you prior to that time, either, is that correct, as far as you know?
A As far as I know.
Q Now, Stacy Young must have told you, when you were in Ohio with her and Brian Haney, she must have told you about the activities that she and Vaughn, her husband, had
806
been involved in for the past four years concerning cases involving Scientology. She told you about that, didn’t she?
A In our first meeting?
Q When you —
A Oh, when I went to Ohio? Are you talking about the Ohio trip?
Q Yes.
A There may have been a brief mention of that, what she was doing. But for sure the substance and the bulk of our conversation was the fact that we were together, we were alive, we actually made it out somewhat sane people and we were just happy to see each other.
Q Did she tell you she and her husband had been making a living off testifying and being experts in cases against Scientology for the past three or four years?
A No, she did not.
Q Did she tell you you had a good opportunity to — to get in on the gravy train, so to speak? Did she tell you that?
A I take offense to that characterization. But that statement is categorically false.
Q Did she tell you that you had the opportunity to make money by being — by working with lawyers in cases involving Scientology? Did she tell you that?
A No, she did not.
807
Q So you didn’t have any discussion about you getting involved in any of these cases?
A At that point in time in Ohio, no, we did not.
Q There came a point in time where you did talk to Stacy about that?
A Yes.
Q And when was that?
A Mmm, I’m not quite sure. It was maybe some months later or — I’m not quite sure. But I think while we were talking she was telling me about FACTNet. She was telling me about this organization which, in some respects, was similar to the Lisa McPherson Trust which had as its intention of providing information and doing what it can to assist people or persons who felt they had been victimized by Scientology. And —
THE COURT: Was FACTNet just Scientology or was it cults in general?
THE WITNESS: Cults in general, you know, the whole subject. Very broad.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q It was primarily Scientology, though, wasn’t it?
A No. If you go on their website, you know, Scientology has its place, but there are many other cults that they have provided information, ex-members speaking
808
about it, you know.
Q Well, the staff members of FACTNet tended to be people that were more interested in Scientology or had had some involvement with Scientology as opposed to other groups. Correct?
A No. That is actually false. There was one person that was a staff — that was a staff member in FACTNet, I think her name was Justine. She was a Christian woman that had never been in Scientology before.
Q You are telling me so you learned about how you could make some money involving Scientology from Ms. Brooks.
So when did that happen?
A You know, I —
THE COURT: Make some money involving Scientology? That doesn’t make sense.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Who was the first person that told you –suggested to you that you might be — you might be a witness and could be paid as a, quote, expert on Scientology? Who told you that?
A No one told me that, Mr. Weinberg.
Q Who asked you to be involved in the first case that you got involved in?
A Mr. Leipold.
Q He just reached out for you?
809
A He was an associate of Mrs. Brooks. Mrs. Brooks was explaining to me about FACTNet. And the whole subject came about because we were talking about being in touch with people that we had lost contact with, old friends that were in Scientology. So she was introducing me, “Well, you know, another person, you know, people from Los Angeles, hey, do you know this one? He’s out.” And Andre Tabayoyon, I think I spoke with him. We were just talking about the people that we knew in Scientology that were no longer there that were out, you know, getting on with their lives, doing what they do.
Q What were you doing in Ohio with Mr. Haney and Ms. Brooks? I mean, why Ohio? You live in Minneapolis. She lived in Seattle. Why were you in Ohio?
A That is where she was when she called me. And I was in Connecticut and she was in Ohio.
Q Is there something special in Ohio?
A I think that is where Mr. Haney lives. She was in Columbus, Ohio. That is where Mr. Haney lives.
Q You went to New Hampshire. How did you get in touch with Mr. Minton? Did you call him? He call you?
A I think I answered this before. This happened through Mrs. Brooks. I met Mrs. Brooks, and then I had — you know, sometime after that I spoke to Mr. Minton on the phone and maybe a month or two later actually went to visit
810
with him.
Q He flew you to New Hampshire —
THE COURT: He said he didn’t know who paid for the ticket. We can assume it was Mr. Minton, directly or indirectly.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Somebody arranged for you to fly to New Hampshire, right?
A Stacy Brooks.
Q All right. But she wasn’t at this weekend — was it a weekend?
A Actually a couple weeks.
Q You were at Mr. Minton’s house for a couple weeks?
A Yes.
Q Who else was there other than you and Mr. Minton?
A His family would come occasionally. His wife. His children.
Q And anybody — I mean, other than his family, anybody else?
A No.
Q What did you-all — did you talk about Scientology in those two weeks?
A Yes, we did. We talked about Scientology. We talked about why — why he became involved. What this was
811
all about. He was very interested to know my involvement, my history, compared to other people that he had talked to.
And again, this is all in reference to, hey, you know, these ex-people, these people that used to be in and now they are not in and now they’re getting together and talking to each other and it is okay to do that.
Q And did he give you some money, some expense money at that point, either before the trip or during the visit or after the trip?
A No. No. I don’t think so.
Q Did he pay for your expenses to move from Minneapolis to Denver?
A Yes.
Q And —
MR. DANDAR: I object because we have got to establish a time frame here. It sounds like it all happened on the same day.
THE COURT: That is true. Whatever the time frame is, I don’t think it all happened on the same day.
MR. DANDAR: All right.
A It didn’t.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q It didn’t. I’m not suggesting that. Do you remember how much he gave you to move from Minneapolis to
812
Denver?
A Mmm, $10,000.
Q In a check? Cash? I mean, how did you get the money?
THE COURT: What difference does it make?
MR. WEINBERG: Probably not.
THE COURT: It doesn’t make any difference.
MR. DANDAR: Right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Where did you get the money? I mean, did this happen in New Hampshire? Or did it happen after the trip to New Hampshire that he gave you the $10,000?
A You know, I’m not sure because, you know, I made a couple of trips to New Hampshire. So I’m not really sure how that came about. But I’ll do the best I can to explain it to you, Mr. Weinberg.
I went there once, I stayed there for a couple of weeks, came back to Minneapolis. The threats started. I was starting to get letters from Elliot Abelson, Scientology attorney in Chicago, letting me know I would be sued. I had private investigators starting a noisy investigation in my neighborhood. And I think I alerted Mr. Minton and Mrs. Brooks, I said, “Look, I can’t believe this whole thing is starting all over again.” You know — you are right, I did do the bankruptcy thing. I cut ties with Scientology
813
completely. I was done with it. I didn’t want another thing to do with it. You know, it is kind of like every time you put your hand in the fire, you know you are going to get burned. I was done.
Q You were done but then you decided to get involved in cases against Scientology?
A Then I went to meet these people and my freedom of association was trying to be inhibited from Scientology — by Scientology. They didn’t want me to associate with these people. There were no — no criminal activity occurred, nothing happened. I’m simply talking to people that used to be in Scientology.
Q All I asked you, did you get the money from Mr. Minton during your trips to New Hampshire or after. That is all I asked, and if you don’t remember just —
A In one of the trips.
Q — just tell me you don’t know.
A In one of the trips, Mr. Weinberg, I did get the money from him to move.
Q Now, did Mr. Minton tell you that he would, in essence, take care of you thereafter to support you with regard to your work involving Scientology?
A No, he did not.
Q But in reality, that is what happened for the next four years, didn’t it?
814
A No, it is not.
Q Well, you began to get money from Mr. Minton after this first $10,000, correct? I mean, from that point on for the next four years you received money, directly or indirectly, from Bob Minton on a monthly basis, didn’t you?
A Mr. Weinberg, I received money from FACTNet when I started working for FACTNet, when I moved from Minneapolis to Boulder, Colorado. I started to receive some — and very little from FACTNet. The fact of the matter is that I was able to live and do what I was doing because I had been — I had my own business, I had staff working for me in two states. I was receiving regular moneys from profits that I had made. And this was where the bulk of my money was coming from.
Q So you had all these profits that you had accumulated after the November bankruptcy between November and June of ’98?
A Correct.
Q Okay. Now, you got the $10,000 from Mr. Minton.
And how much money do you remember that you received from FACTNet?
A Maybe a couple of thousand. You know, one month.
A thousand another. You know, it was kind of back and forth.
Q And then you came — then, shortly after this, you
815
came to Florida in the fall of 1998 to begin work with regard to the PC folders in this case. Correct? You flew to Florida?
A Correct.
Q And you spent how many days with Ms. Brooks reviewing the PC folders of Lisa McPherson in the fall of ’98?
A You know, I’m not sure, but it was like many days, maybe even more than a week. And it was something I came back to, as well, and participated in getting the folders copied. So this whole thing with the folders started in December but it went through a period of time, a month’s period of time of going through those folders.
Q So at that point when you first came you were now officially on board as an expert for Mr. Dandar in the Lisa McPherson matter, correct?
A I — I wouldn’t say that. The reason why Mr. Dandar wanted me to go through those folders is because of my expertise in Scientology, my prior technical experience, the many courses and certificates and internships I had finished.
THE COURT: Were you his consultant, as well?
THE WITNESS: Not at that time. I just came down to do the preclear folders. Mr. Dandar and I did not have a relationship because we didn’t know
816
each other. And through time — and he could see my competence in interpreting Scientology policies and bulletins — that I then became a consultant and worked more closely with him on the case.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Well, at the time — when you were reviewing these folders it was in Mr. Dandar’s office?
A Yes.
Q And you had — you met with Mr. Dandar at that period of time?
A Yes.
Q I mean, you introduced yourself to him and all that?
THE COURT: Well, Counsel, come on.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did you bill him for your time?
A No.
Q You just did this for free?
A Yes. And I had done it for free many times. I mean, I have worked for Morrison & Foerster, and Feaster from — out of San Francisco in a legal case. I worked for Mr. Leipold in a legal case. I worked for Mr. Dandar. I mean, by that time I had been working with these different attorney firms or at least they had been calling me to see if I could assist them in these other legal cases.
817
Q Well, who was paying you to be in Tampa, St. Pete, wherever it was, that you were to work with Mr. Dandar and Ms. Brooks with regard to this case in the fall of 1998 and early 1999 when you were going through these PC folders?
A Again I’ll say that my expenses to fly down to Florida, I believe, was paid by Mr. Dandar. The money that I used to exist for that period of time, I think we’re talking about maybe six months, for the most part — for the greater majority of it were residuals from the business I operated in Minneapolis.
Q Well, didn’t Mr. Minton give you checks in early 1999, $5,000, $6,000 a month?
A No.
Q He didn’t do that?
A He may have did it a time or two but it wasn’t consistent. And FACTNet was a very small organization. It sometimes just didn’t have money. And my — you know, and this was kind of like a period of time like where how do you fit in? So, you know, I would occasionally tell Mr. Minton, “Hey, you know, these people don’t have money. I can’t live on air here. Can you help out?”
Q Well, why Mr. Minton? Why not Mr. Dandar who you were doing the work for?
A Because I was working on FACTNet now, you know.
We’re mixing apples and oranges here. FACTNet was a
818
corporation that Mr. Minton was on the board of directors of.
Q Well, I thought — correct me if I’m wrong, I thought I heard you say that starting in the fall of 1998, into 1999, you spent a number of days, weeks, whatever, working on this case, the Lisa McPherson case?
A Well, hold on, hold on, hold on. I never even met Mr. Dandar until 1999. So let’s leave 19 —
Q How can you say that? You just said you were in his office in the fall of 1998 looking at the PC folders?
A Wait — okay. Well, okay, I’m confused with the dates. So —
THE COURT: So what is the right date?
THE WITNESS: I don’t know. I mean, was it 1998?
THE COURT: That is fine. I told you and I’ll tell you again and it is really a wonderful answer, you know, 1997, ’98, ’99, there could be a lot of these dates you simply don’t know, and there is nothing wrong with saying, “I’m not sure what the date was. I don’t know for sure.”
THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
A Mr. Weinberg, I don’t know. I don’t recall for sure.
819
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, when did you become the expert/consultant in the Lisa McPherson case?
A I believe that I got a letter from Mr. Dandar quite possibly in March of 1999 that memorialized the fact that he wanted to hire me to be his consultant. We had had a working relationship at that point because I helped him a lot and I — and —
THE COURT: You know, I haven’t heard a date yet. When is the question?
A March of ’99. I think that is when we formed an agreement and decided on terms.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q All right. Prior to March of ’99, in the months prior to March of ’99, you had done a lot of work assisting Mr. Dandar with, for example, PC folders, correct?
A Correct.
Q So whether that started in November or December of ’98, it was sometime several months before March of ’99 when you signed on as the expert. Right?
A Yes.
Q And —
A To the best of my recollection.
Q And prior to signing on as the expert, can you tell us how much time you had spent down here helping out
820
Mr. Dandar before you signed on as the expert?
A I’m sorry, I can’t tell you how much time it was.
Q Okay. Now, once you signed on with Mr. Dandar, then was it established that you were on a monthly salary?
A Mmm, I think the letter that memorializes that agreement, I was on a monthly retainer of $5,000 a month and my billable hours which I believe was either $100 or $150 an hour.
Q If you exceeded the $5,000? Or is it in addition to the $5,000?
A The $5,000 retainer, and the hours against that, plus any other hours if I put in more hours or whatever.
Q But you didn’t keep your hours, we established — remember we established that in front of Judge Moody that you didn’t keep your hours. Right?
A Well, no, in the beginning I didn’t. And again, Mr. Weinberg, there was nothing to keep prior to that because I had just literally done the work for free.
Q Well, we have asked for your hours as part of the various discovery, and it came up in the Judge Moody hearing when you testified in front of Judge Moody and your testimony was, I believe, that either you didn’t keep them or you didn’t have them.
A Right. I didn’t have accurate records. I didn’t have any notes to turn over or — no.
821
Q So what you got paid by Mr. Dandar was $5,000 a month because you didn’t keep the time in order to get anything in addition to that. Correct?
A Well, you see, we’re mixing apples and oranges here again now. Because I think, you know, you talk about that time period from 1998 to —
THE COURT: I’m — he’s talking about the time period from March of ’99 when you were placed on a $5,000-a-month retainer, was it $100 or $150 an hour again that — which was it?
THE WITNESS: I’m not sure, I think it may have been $150, actually.
THE COURT: Let’s assume it was $150 an hour.
Basically how that works, if you go over, whatever $150 into $5,000 is, then you get more, but if you get less, you still keep the five.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Was that the deal?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: So you didn’t keep records, apparently?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: You were paid $5,000 a month?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: For whatever — for however many
822
hours you worked?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q We’ll show you the checks, but that continued up until — your recollection is that continued to a particular point in time, I believe the records will show, May of 2000 when you left Mr. Dandar’s payroll and went on LMT’s payroll. Correct?
A My reference point for that, Mr. Weinberg, is that we had finished the depositions of all of the Scientology persons that needed to be deposed. And Mr. Dandar was going to go on to —
THE COURT: Well, is that correct? Is that the date? I mean, all he wants to know —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q All I want to know —
A I don’t know if that is the right date. I’m saying my reference is this —
Q At some point, and we’ll show you the checks, I’m representing to you I think the last Dandar check is May of ’99 — or May of 2000. At some point in time you quit getting Dandar & Dandar checks and you started getting LMT checks?
A Correct.
Q And LMT continued to pay you at $5,000 a month?
823
A Correct.
Q The same $5,000 — the same amount. And you negotiated that rate with Mr. Minton?
A And Mrs. Brooks.
Q Now, and then the LMT at some point — you testified about either yesterday or the day before — closed down, correct?
A Correct.
Q And whenever that was, your recollection it was sometime in August or September of 2001. Right?
THE COURT: When was the date? When was the date?
MR. WEINBERG: That I don’t know exactly. I mean, it depends on — I mean, I’m really asking Mr. Prince.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I believe that you, Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks said it was sometime in the August/September of 2001 time period, is that correct?
A Mr. Weinberg, my recollection is I think it ceased to exist as a corporation — I think there was something that Stacy wrote. But again as I testified to yesterday, there was that period of time when Judge Beach still had to come into the trust in order to go through all of the offices, the library, looking for discovery, so in effect it
824
was kind of forced to stay open longer after that.
Q Well, we’ll show you the checks. But the records from LMT —
THE COURT: If you have got the checks, wouldn’t it make a lot more sense to show him, then I wouldn’t have to listen to this?
MR. WEINBERG: Right. I will.
THE COURT: What you said yesterday was even after it closed down there was a period of time when you were working and you got paid for that, too, is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Whatever the checks show, the checks show.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And then at some point you quit getting LMT checks, right?
A Correct.
Q And — but Mr. Minton continued to pay you. Right?
A No. That is incorrect. Mrs. Brooks did.
Q You knew that Mrs. Brooks was getting the money from Mr. Minton. Right?
A Well, you know — come on.
Q Come on yeah?
825
A Do I need to assume that for you to make a point?
The answer to the question is I was being paid by Mrs. Brooks. Her name is on the check. It is to me. That is it.
Q All right. And that was at $5,000 a month, as well?
A Correct.
Q And who did you negotiate that deal with?
A Mrs. Brooks.
Q And did you talk to Mr. Minton about it?
A No. I specifically talked to Mrs. Brooks about it because she wanted everyone to take a cut in pay. And, again, this constant figure of $5,000 is something that we had discussed many years earlier.
Q “We” being?
A Mrs. Brooks, Mr. Minton. This is what I need to be able to live.
Q So —
A This is comparable to what I was making before I came and started doing this. I —
Q I’m sorry, before you ever signed on with Mr. Dandar, you had already discussed with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks that you needed $5,000 a month to live, correct?
A Correct.
Q And is that what you’re getting paid at FACTNet,
826
as well?
A No.
Q Now, when you started getting these checks — they were checks, right, from Ms. Brooks, you were still living in Clearwater. Right? Or — or Florida?
A I’m still living here. Yes.
Q And you’re living in a house that Mr. Minton gave you a $50,000 down payment on. Correct?
A That was part of the down payment that I had to make. My total down payment for that house was $70,000.
Q How much of that $70,000 did Mr. Minton give you?
A $50,000.
Q And when was that? When did he give you the $50,000?
A You know, I guess it was sometime in February.
And, you know —
THE COURT: If you have the check, show it to him.
MR. WEINBERG: I don’t have the check, I don’t think.
A Well, you know, we’ve said —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Well, could you just tell me when you bought your house?
THE COURT: If he doesn’t know, he doesn’t
827
know. If you don’t know, say you don’t know.
A I know when I bought the house. I think the 21st or 22nd of February of 2000.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And at that point in February of 2000, you were getting Dandar & Dandar monthly checks as his consultant.
Right?
A Correct.
Q All right. And how did it come about Mr. Minton gave you $50,000 of the $70,000 that you needed for the downpayment?
A You want to hear this?
Q You asked him for it?
THE COURT: Go on ahead. You asked. He can tell it. Go on and rattle off however long this story is going to take.
A Prior to moving down to Clearwater, we had discussed — had many discussions about, well, where to put the Lisa McPherson Trust. We were kicking around this idea of the LMT, where is it going to go? Should it be in D.C., should it be in Boston, in the Los Angeles area. Bob said Clearwater.
We discussed this, David Cecere, myself, I think Mrs. Brooks, Mr. Minton and there — there quite possibly could have been someone else there — I don’t remember — of
828
where to put this thing.
And Mr. Minton really wanted to put it in Clearwater. He felt that it was important that it happen in Clearwater. Which meant that everyone that was going to work there would be displaced from where they were currently living to move here.
Mr. Minton offered to pay the moving expenses for all concerned and to help all concerned establish residence in Clearwater.
Q So he paid your moving expenses which —
A Correct.
Q — included a $50,000 downpayment?
A No, sir. That is what was discussed in — in New Hampshire, you know, before we moved here. Ultimately, Mr. Minton gave me the $50,000 loan to purchase that house, but I paid for my own moving expenses and I paid — I mean, the whole deal cost about $80,000 for me to relocate.
Because I had a place in Memphis. And by this time I’m kind of living with — in Chicago. By this time I’m kind of living with my fiancee in Memphis, Tennessee, as well. So when I moved down to Clearwater I had to move from two cities; I had to move from Chicago, I had to move from Memphis, Tennessee, to Clearwater.
Q Mr. Minton paid some other things for you. He paid your attorney fees in the criminal case down here,
829
didn’t he?
A I believe the Lisa McPherson Trust paid those.
Q Well, did you — did you discuss with Mr. Minton that you needed funds to pay an attorney when you got charged down here?
A No.
Q So who did you discuss that with so that the Lisa McPherson Trust paid for your attorney fees?
A I wanted to hire a fellow named Rob Love to defend me in that action. Mrs. Brooks insisted that Mr. DeVlaming would handle my case and it would be taken care of by the Lisa McPherson Trust as a job hazard.
Q As a job hazard?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And that was around $60,000 or $70,000?
A The bill that I saw — I think it was about $45,000 that I saw.
Q Do you think it was more than that or you don’t know?
A I think it could have been more.
Q Now, how long — so how would you get these checks from Ms. Brooks after the Lisa McPherson Trust closed down?
A She would mail them to me from Atlanta.
Q The last check you got was on or about April 4 of 2002?
830
A Correct.
Q And did you have a discussion — all these discussions that you had with Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton that you have testified about this year, in any of those discussions did you discuss with them your need for them to continue paying you?
A Mmm, no, I haven’t had a discussion about that. I mean, we — I think I brought up earlier, in September there was a renegotiation of — Stacy wanted people to take pay cuts or whatever. And —
Q But you didn’t take one?
A Correct.
Q I was talking about April. In that — do you remember you said you had all these conversations, that you referred to them in your affidavit, with Mr. Brooks — with Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton —
A Oh, okay.
Q In those conversations did you raise the fact that you needed more money, you needed money, you wanted money?
A No.
Q Okay.
A I did not.
Q Now, you said that you began as the paid expert/consultant in the Lisa McPherson case in March of — of 1999. Correct?
831
A Yes.
MR. WEINBERG: Now, let me have the reporter — the clerk —
A To the best of my recollection.
MR. WEINBERG: — mark as a 3-page exhibit, if we can do that, your Honor —
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. WEINBERG: — some checks. This will be 225.
THE COURT: All right. Do I have the right order, the way you handed it to me?
MR. WEINBERG: I think so.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: It is possible, however, that I screwed that up, but —
THE COURT: It is all right.
MR. WEINBERG: But the order should be February, March and May. That is what I’m hoping.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q This is 225, Mr. Prince.
A Okay.
Q And you recognize the first page of 225 to be a February 2nd of 1999 check from Bob Minton for $6,500 to you?
832
A Yes, I do.
Q Do you recognize the second page to be a March — appears to be March 18, 1999 check to you for $5,000, do you see that?
A Yes, I do.
Q From Mr. Minton again?
A Yes.
Q And the third check to be a May 4, 1999 check for $5,000 from Mr. Minton?
A Correct. Q Now, this was — these checks had to do with the agreement that you had already worked out with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks about you getting at least $5,000 a month?
A Correct.
Q But you were getting this on top of what you were getting from Mr. Dandar?
A No.
Q Okay. You think you started getting from Mr. Dandar a little bit later?
A Yes.
Q Now, what was this $5,000 a month for? I mean, one was $6,500. Do you know why it was $6,500?
A Do you know, I don’t know. I was looking at that. That is an anomaly. That must have been money left over from another month. Because as I said, there was a
833
stretch — period of time after I met — certainly from 1998 until I guess this first check here that I was just simply not paid at all.
Q But this — you are not getting paid for FACTNet work, you are getting paid for Lisa McPherson work prior to signing on with —
A No.
Q — Ken Dandar?
A No.
Q Well, what is this work? What is this —
A I’m in FACTNet when this is happening.
Q Why was FACTNet paying you?
A Well, I think I mentioned earlier that sometimes FACTNet just didn’t have money and I would call Mr. Minton. I can’t just be down here.
Q Now, when —
THE COURT: Weren’t you making $3,500 a month at FACTNet? Or am I thinking of something else?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, you may be right about that because we did have — have some agreement, I think I reached some agreement with them to do that. And, you know, at that time I still had my other business. I still had other employees. I would often make trips, you know. So that could have been the case.
834
But the fact of the matter is the organization didn’t have the money.
THE COURT: I’m trying to think of why — I have no idea why it was $6,500 either unless perhaps —
MR. WEINBERG: I think it might have been some expenses or something.
THE COURT: Or perhaps he was getting $3,500 from FACTNet. He was supposed to start getting $5,000 from whatever, and I didn’t get — the difference from $3,500 to $5,000 would be $6,500.
That would be rational but —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q In any event, Mr. Minton knew you had been doing this work in Clearwater for Mr. Dandar with regard to the PC folders? He knew that?
A I assume he did.
Q I mean, you were in — once you had spent that however long you said it was, I forgot now, a couple weeks at his house, you communicated with him regularly after that, didn’t you?
A Up until this very occurrence, yes.
THE COURT: What is “this very occurrence”?
This —
THE WITNESS: That is occurring here.
835
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: Now I’m going to mark as our next exhibit, your Honor —
THE CLERK: 226.
MR. WEINBERG: — 226, this is 226 —
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, Mr. Prince, 226 is a response that was filed by Mr. Dandar on April 6, 2001. And attached — and the response shows that it has checks attached, but if you’ll look at the summary on Page 2, it identifies a 6/30/99 check, an 8/20/99 check, a 9/15/99 —
A Excuse me, I’m not following you at all.
MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach a second?
THE COURT: You don’t need to read them all into evidence. Just put it into evidence.
MR. WEINBERG: I just wanted him to look at it.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You see those?
A Uh-huh.
Q Attached is those checks. So either look at the attachment or summary there.
Is it your recollection that is the sum and substance of what Dandar & Dandar paid you while you were on the — you know, being working as a consultant/expert?
836
A I believe this is correct with the possible exception of recent activity.
Q Right. No, I’m talking about prior to 2002.
A Okay.
Q And that the first check was on or about June 30, 1999. Do you see that?
A Yes, I do.
Q And the last check was on or about May 24, 2000.
A Yes.
Q And it’s your recollection that after you received the last check, that is when you started getting paid at the same rate by Lisa McPherson Trust?
A Correct.
Q You see for the most part these checks are $5,000 a month?
A Correct. I think I can explain what this other one is for, $1,772.
Q What?
A I mean all of $5,000 with the exception of the $1,772 —
Q Is that some expense check?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Now, the Lisa McPherson Trust actually withheld from your check. Right?
A Yes.
837
Q In other words, you — your salary was $5,000 a month but your take-home was whatever —
A About 35.
Q So I’m going to show you a series of those checks, as well.
A Okay.
Q You were on a 1099 for Mr. Dandar, in other words, he didn’t withhold from your checks, right?
A Correct.
THE COURT: You were considered an independent contractor when you worked for him, is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
THE CLERK: 227.
MR. WEINBERG: This is 227, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q This is 227.
A Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll mark as 228 this document.
And all this is is the payroll records of Mr. Prince which show that the salary was $5,000, it shows what the withholding was.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: That is 228.
838
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: These were produced by the Lisa McPherson Trust.
THE COURT: These weren’t additional moneys.
MR. WEINBERG: No, it just shows what the salary was, 228, and they withheld —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q If you look at the checks, Mr. Prince, they are $3,552, starting in June of — of 2000, do you see that?
A Mmm, yes, I do.
Q And it is June, July, August, September, October, November, December —
THE COURT: Counselor — Counselor, just can you go from the beginning to the end?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q It begins in June — end of June of 2000 and ends — one is out of place — ends —
THE COURT: June ’01.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q June/01, except if you look at the other exhibit, Mr. Prince — if I could just approach, your Honor — the payroll records indicate that you would have received — you would have received a — one last payment on August 1, 2001 of $5,000 salary with all of the withholding. Do you see that?
839
A I’m trying to follow.
Q It is the last page. Right there (indicating).
August 1 —
A Oh, yeah. Okay.
Q All right? So that was probably the close-out payment or something?
A That was the last check. Yeah.
THE COURT: Counselor, from LMT again?
MR. WEINBERG: These are the LMT records, this is what they produced.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So it appears you were paid a salary as an employee from June of 2000 until August of 2001 at $5,000 a month. Correct?
A Correct.
Q And after August 1 of 2001, you continued to get your $5,000 a month but it was from Ms. Brooks?
A Correct.
Q Now, did Ms. Brooks withhold from — I mean —
THE COURT: What could she withhold from? I mean, she was not paying him out of a business; she was giving him money.
MR. WEINBERG: It’s a good question.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did — what were you considered at that point when
840
you were getting this $5,000 a month from Ms. Brooks?
A What was I considered? Stranded in Clearwater.
All of the other staff had moved.
THE COURT: Was this a friend giving — giving you living money until you could get some other job?
THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Was there some understanding how long that was going on?
A No.
Q Was — had there been discussions it was going to end?
A No.
Q Now, you have a monthly mortgage, obviously, because you haven’t sold this house yet, right?
A Correct.
Q Who paid you in May of 2002?
A It’s not here?
Q May of 2002. The last check from Ms. Brooks you said was April 4, 2002.
A Correct.
Q You said for years you needed $5,000 a month to live.
A Correct.
Q So my question is who paid —
841
your money to live in May of 2002?
A I think from the State of Florida.
Q What do you mean?
A I filed for unemployment.
Q Well, how did you do that?
THE COURT: Because he was unemployed.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q But you’d been unemployed since August of 2001.
A Yeah.
Q Or did you tell them that you had been employed since August of 2001 and just lost your job when you had this argument or disagreement with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks?
A Mr. Weinberg, it is actually quite a simple process. You go online, you tell them you are employed — unemployed, you put it in there, and they send you a check. You check in. You have to look for employment. I mean, that is what I know about.
Q And who did you say your last employer was?
A Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q And what did you say the circumstances were that you had lost your job?
A Mmm, I — I think — I think maybe the place was bankrupt, went out of business, closed shop. Something like that, you know.
842
Q Is there some application you have to fill out?
A Online, yes.
Q And is there — so it is all online, it is with the State of Florida?
A Yes, it is with the State of Florida online, yes.
Q And so since May of 2002, you have been on unemployment?
A Since late May of — yeah. Late May of 2002.
Yes.
Q So you are still on unemployment?
A No.
Q Well, when did that end?
A Well, when I worked out a new agreement with Mr. Dandar and came to appear as an expert and give testimony here, he gave me a check which I think he said he would send here, and at that point when you receive money — when you are employed and you are actually receiving money, whether it is self-employed or otherwise, that terminates unemployment.
So that check effectively terminated my unemployment.
Q And so you notified the authorities of that?
A Yes. And I haven’t received another check since.
Q How many checks did you get — where do you get it, from the State of Florida, is that where you get the
843
checks?
A Yes.
Q And how many checks did you get for unemployment?
A Mmm, well, they do it — I think I was getting like $293 a week or something like that. Then they would double them up so the checks were like $494, I would get two of those —
THE COURT: Were you getting weekly checks?
THE WITNESS: No, I had it every other week.
So I got $494 — I believe I received —
THE COURT: Do you know?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Then why don’t you say that?
THE WITNESS: Sorry. I don’t know.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q When did you get the first money from — when did you sign up with Mr. Dandar to be an expert again? What date?
A I don’t know.
Q Well, that can’t be long ago, so what is your best —
A Well, I don’t know the date. I don’t know.
Q What were the circumstances of you becoming an expert again?
A Mmm, you know, again, this whole thing was over.
844
People were going home. It was over. Your client took Mrs. Brooks and Mr. Minton as trophies and we are sitting here today and this brought me into this position here again today. So, you know, those are kinds of the circumstances.
THE COURT: Are you back as a consultant or expert or combination of the two?
THE WITNESS: I have been a combination of the two with him.
THE COURT: And what time did that start, about? Was it like —
THE WITNESS: Maybe a week ago, two weeks ago or however.
THE COURT: So between May of 2002 up until that time you were collecting unemployment?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And is there some agreement you executed with Mr. Dandar a week or two weeks ago?
A Yeah, that I participate in the case, I would help —
Q No, is there some written agreement?
A Oh, no.
Q And the day that it started is when you got the check. Is that when you became the expert, when you got the check?
845
A You know, I’m not — I’m not sure because —
THE COURT: As opposed to they talked, then they got a check —
MR. WEINBERG: I’m trying to date it. It is not that long ago. I’m trying to date it.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I mean, when it happened, did you — I mean, did this essentially happen simultaneously that somehow it was established that you were going to be the expert again and you negotiated what you needed?
A There was no — I’ll try to explain it as best as I can, Mr. Weinberg.
THE COURT: I don’t care. I don’t want to hear it, I’m not interested. I’m just not interested.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Could I ask the amount then? What is the agreement? Are you getting paid on monthly basis? Salary?
A We have no agreement like that. I just — you know, I will put in X amount of time, I’ll get through this hearing —
THE COURT: Are you going to bill him per hour, or what?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I am.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And how much have you received from Mr. Dandar?
846
A $4,000.
Q Is that just a retainer?
A Yes.
THE COURT: Are you keeping records now?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I am.
THE COURT: What is your hourly fee?
THE WITNESS: 150.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: I think this would be — I have a few other questions.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did anybody else, between the time that Ms. Brooks quit giving you money and the time that Mr. Dandar did give you money, did anybody else give you whatever you want to call it, expense money, living money, expert money, money?
A No.
THE COURT: Between the time Ms. Brooks —
MR. WEINBERG: — quit giving him the money in April of 2002 of this year and whenever it was Mr. Dandar gave this check.
THE COURT: Other than his unemployment?
MR. WEINBERG: Other than his unemployment.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did anybody else give you money?
A The answer is no.
847
MR. WEINBERG: I think that — you know, I’m sort of at the end of this section. If you want me to start another section I will, or we can —
THE COURT: Yes, I would like to go until about 12:15, if you don’t mind.
MR. WEINBERG: No.
THE COURT: Because we kind of got a late break.
MR. WEINBERG: No, I really don’t mind.
THE COURT: Gee, I thought you were about to say you were done.
MR. DANDAR: I thought so, too.
THE COURT: I was real excited.
MR. WEINBERG: Or I could put it a different way. Maybe I could have some time to collect my thoughts. No, I’m not done.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you have been asked before about —
THE COURT: Could I ask one question? I’m sorry.
MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
THE COURT: What is the number of the response from Mr. Dandar? Can somebody give me a number on that?
848
MR. DANDAR: 226.
THE COURT: Thank you. I forgot to mark it.
MR. WEINBERG: Which means that the — that the LMT —
THE COURT: I have everything else marked. I just didn’t have that marked.
MR. WEINBERG: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You have been asked before and testified about going to Key West. Do you remember that?
A I don’t remember testifying about that.
Q Well, did you go to Key West?
A Yes. But I don’t remember testifying about it.
MR. DANDAR: It is outside of the scope of direct.
THE COURT: Well, I don’t know what he’s going to ask about it, but it is probably doubtful it is outside of the scope of direct but —
MR. WEINBERG: It is. It is.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And you were in Key West for what purpose?
A Vacation.
Q For a fishing trip is what you previously testified to.
849
A Yes, okay. And, you know, I don’t want to do this — if I have testimony, could you please just show it to me and ask me about it?
THE COURT: That is a fair question. I mean —
MR. WEINBERG: Well, let me ask a few questions and then I will show it to you because we do have — actually we’ll show you the video.
THE COURT: If he wants to see it, you show it to him now.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, this is it. He can look at it.
THE COURT: Then put it up then.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, I need to ask him one question before.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: One series.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q In Key West, it didn’t have anything to do about Scientology or this case or cases against Scientology, is that right?
A Mmm, you know, we were there for a fishing trip.
I was there with Mr. Haverty, Mr. Haney, Mr. Ford Greene, Mr Dan Leipold, Mr. Dandar; Mr. Garko came out there. We all have a common interest, and it would be crazy for me to say that the subject of our work didn’t come up and was
850
discussed or whatever at some — you know, during the fishing trip.
So the — that is the best way I can answer that question.
THE COURT: So the answer is yes, you all discussed the case?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Well, let me play your testimony and then I’ll ask you about it.
THE COURT: What testimony? This is on direct?
MR. WEINBERG: No, it’s in his deposition under oath in this case on November 17 —
THE COURT: See, you misled — I think Mr. Prince and I both thought you were talking about on direct examination which is what Mr. Dandar said was outside the scope.
MR. WEINBERG: No, in this case about Key West.
THE COURT: But it was in his deposition?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. When you say testimony in this case, I’m going to assume you’re talking about direct.
MR. WEINBERG: I’m sorry.
851
THE COURT: So if it is something else, you need to identify it for him and for me.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
MR. DANDAR: What page number is this going to be?
MR. WEINBERG: Right here. This is a transcript of where this comes from.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: May I have a transcript, too?
MR. WEINBERG: Oh, sure.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
______________________________________
(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did you go to Key West?
A Yes.
Q Who sent you to Key West?
A No one sent. I went.
Q Who paid for the trip?
A I paid for the majority of it while I was there, but it wasn’t — really not much to pay for. I paid to be on a boat to go out fishing. I paid —
Q Who — well, who gave you the money?
A I used my own money.
Q Well, where did that money come from?
852
A Money that I earned from working.
Q For FACTNet and Mr. Dandar and Mr. Leipold?
A I think we’ve covered this earlier. You know, I have a — you know — different businesses, as well as expert, and, you know, the money that I used for that particular trip came from money derived from income from work that I’ve done.
Q Including FACTNet, Mr. Dandar and Mr. Leipold, right?
A I’m not sure why you’re bringing up FACTNet. I thought we —
Q Is that right?
A No, that is wrong.
Q Well, when was the trip to Key West?
A Well, six weeks ago now.
Q And who was on the trip? What people were on the trip?
A Oh, you know, I really don’t want to discuss that because I was on a complete pleasure trip. It had nothing do with McPherson, or Wollersheim. Nothing. It had to do with fishing and having a good time. Okay?
Q Now —
A And I explained to you earlier that I am very reticent to bring up the names of people that I’m involved with that is activity outside of Scientology because of the
853
behavior of your client. How many times do we have to keep going over this?
Q Were you on the trip with Mr. Dandar? Or are you embarrassed about bringing his name up? Were you on the trip with Mr. Dandar?
A No, Mr. Dandar was not —
Q Answer yes or no?
A — on the trip. No.
Q Was Mr. Leipold on the trip?
A Mr. Leipold — Leipold was there, Mr. Weiner (sic). He was there.
Q Was Mr. Minton on the trip?
A No.
Q Ms. Young on the trip?
A No.
Q Vaughn Young on the trip?
A No.
Q Mr. Jacobsen on the trip?
A Who is Mr. Jacobsen?
Q You don’t know Mr. Jacobsen?
A No.
Q That is fine. Mr. Ward on the trip?
A No. No.
Q Did you talk about Lisa McPherson on the trip?
A Very little.
854
Q So Mr. Leipold went from California to Key West to just fish —
A Yes.
Q — with Jesse Prince?
A Yes. We went deep-sea fishing. We went 40 miles off the coast, caught fish like this. Had a ball.
Q And there was no planning session with regard to litigation. Is that correct?
A No.
Q Was Mr. Haney on the trip?
A Yes. And his son. And he learned to fish.
Excuse me. Now that we don’t have a question pending I would like to take a break. My leg is going to sleep.
Q We just broke ten minutes ago?
A Well, okay, I’m sorry, my leg is going to sleep.
I’ll take a two-minute break. Is that okay, Mr. Weiner (sic)?
Q Okay, take a break.
____________________________________
Q Now, I asked you if Mr. Dandar was in Key West with you. And you said no. You said no repeatedly. Is that correct?
A I don’t — if I did say no, I’m very sorry. He was not part of the trip. He came and appeared one day,
855
said, “Hi,” we had dinner and he left.
Q When you were outside did they — did they — Ms. Young remind you that you had made yet another mistake under oath? Did they tell you that?
A How could Ms. Young said — say that when I gave you testimony that she wasn’t there?
Q Well, who told you that then? Who told you — who corrected your — your false testimony that Mr. Dandar wasn’t there?
A I never gave false testimony. You asked me if Dandar was part of the trip that I went fishing. I said no.
Q And you were absolutely insistent that Mr. Dandar wasn’t there and yet he was in Key West?
A And came and had dinner and left. One time.
Q Flew down to Key West to have dinner and left.
MR. DANDAR: Objection, asked and answered and don’t answer it again.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did he stay in a hotel down there?
A I don’t know.
Q What do you mean, you don’t know?
A That means that I don’t have personal knowledge of it.
Q And you understand what personal knowledge is,
856
right?
A Oh, come on, please.
Q No, do you understand it, personal knowledge?
A I do not know if he was staying in a hotel there.
I was in a different place. I don’t know where he was.
Q How many — how long did you spend with him in Key West on that trip this summer?
A A dinner. Maybe 15, 20 minutes. Outside of dinner —
Q Dinner is usually at night, right?
A Correct.
Q Did you see him the next morning?
A No.
Q Now, was Mike Garko down there?
A Yes, he was. Dr. Garko was there.
Q Was Thom Haverty down there?
A Yes. He was.
Q So that is like the whole consulting team for the McPherson case?
A Mr. Garko was with Mr. Dandar.
Q So he just flew in for dinner?
A Came in and left.
Q Didn’t have anything to do with the Lisa McPherson case?
A No.
857
Q Who paid for your trip?
A As I gave testimony to earlier, I paid my own expenses to — Mmm — take the boat out. I went out on a boat several times. I paid about 50, 60 bucks a time. I bought beer, wine, food, cigarettes.
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________
THE COURT: Counselor, is it — is it important that —
MR. WEINBERG: We are demonstrating —
THE COURT: Right now we have testimony coming out, I paid for my trip.
MR. WEINBERG: We are playing it in context.
THE COURT: No, it is not. I see about a jillion pages. You are on Page 259 and I see it going straight through to Page 267. That is a lot of pages. And I see that you’re — there is a lot of consistent testimony here.
MR. WEINBERG: But, your Honor, when we play this, I think you’ll see that there is a lot of inconsistent statements.
THE COURT: Yes, you already played it. I’m saying why do I have to listen to the consistent testimony from a deposition, it is improper.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, because — because —
858
there has been a lot of argument, accusations in here about taking things out of context so we left it in context is what we did.
THE COURT: All right.
If you have any more like this, you — you cut and paste. You can give it all to me, go to where you want to go, but I don’t want to hear it —
MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
THE COURT: I have better things to do than listen to this man’s testimony two times when it is exactly the same both times. Now, there is differences and I’m interested in hearing the differences.
MR. WEINBERG: And it is different from the other sworn testimony before —
THE COURT: And I’m interested in hearing that.
I’m not interested in hearing that which is not inconsistent. Do I make myself clear?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
THE COURT: It is improper. All right.
MR. WEINBERG: We could play it on rebuttal case, and we thought it would be appropriate to play it here with Mr. Prince on the stand and get his explanation for the inconsistencies between this and —
859
THE COURT: I have no problem with your playing inconsistencies.
MR. WEINBERG: All right.
THE COURT: That is called impeachment. I do have a problem with having to listen to Mr. Prince’s testimony on the stand and then listen to identical testimony in a deposition. Cut and paste it. You can give me the whole deposition, so if I want to read it in between, I can.
MR. WEINBERG: I apologize. Just play the rest — no, are we done?
That is fine.
THE COURT: I mean, there is more here and there may be more inconsistencies and I want you to play that —
MR. WEINBERG: I understand, and we don’t have it set up and I’ll go back and look at it at the break.
THE COURT: Let me look and I can see what you have underlined and that is probably the important part. I see I have two pages here not underlined.
MR. WEINBERG: The only stuff being played is the underlined stuff.
THE COURT: That is not true, Counsel, it is not true.
860
MR. DANDAR: And I don’t have anything underlined.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, then — then I should have followed the transcript.
THE COURT: Page 259, this is about the time I interrupted you, “Who paid for your trip down there?
“As I gave testimony to you earlier, I paid my own expenses. I went out on a boat several times –”
MR. WEINBERG: Wait a minute. I thought — point made. I really thought when I was — that I had this — only the stuff that was yellowed.
THE COURT: No.
MR. WEINBERG: That is why it was yellowed.
THE COURT: If there is something else in here you want to impeach, that is perfectly fine, you can catch it during lunch.
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll catch it during lunch. I think I pretty much made my point.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, in Mr. Dandar’s testimony in this proceeding on May 3, 2002 —
A Not this?
Q No, it is not this.
A Okay.
861
Q On Page 90 — this is in his direct testimony when it first started at the beginning — I could hand this up.
THE COURT: If you are going to try to impeach this witness from Mr. Dandar’s testimony —
MR. WEINBERG: No, I’m going to ask him a question about it.
THE COURT: You don’t need to show him Mr. Dandar’s testimony or ask him about it. You can’t do it. If their testimony differs, it differs. You can bring it up, inconsistencies in their testimony, but you can’t show him Mr. Dandar’s testimony and say, “Is that true?”
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I take it that you did not spend hours and hours talking about Scientology strategy, the Lisa McPherson case and the other Scientology cases with Mr. Dandar or anyone else at the Key West meeting. Is that correct?
A That is correct. My recollection, I didn’t spend hours speaking to anyone about this. I mean, you know, there were a point in time when the attorneys were meeting, you know. And again, I don’t profess to be an attorney, I don’t try to be an attorney. I was there on a fishing trip, you know. Mr. Leipold has certain experience in dealing with Scientology. Mr. Ford Greene has certain experience with dealing with Scientology because of the cases he has
862
done. They had discussed with Mr. Dandar about that. This had nothing to do with me.
Q Well, you said Mr. Dandar in your testimony was only there for dinner one night for a few hours with Dr. Garko and flew back and there was no discussion about — about the case. That is what you said?
A You know —
Q Under oath. Correct?
A This is getting ridiculous, Mr. Weinberg. I mean, he flew in for dinner. He flew in. He brought in Mr. Garko. He had his own personal pilot. They were flying a little personal plane. They came, you know, while it was still light outside, you know, “Hi.” Thom Haverty’s wife is there and Captain Wayne’s wife is there, the boat. This is a social setting.
Q All right, so —
A There is nothing sinister about it.
Q So Mr. Dandar was not there for two or three or four days with Dr. Garko, was he?
A Not to my recollection. No.
Q Did you fly back to Tampa with Mr. Dandar?
A No, I did not.
Q And did you talk, on the trip in Key West — which you remember it was in August of 1999?
A I’ll take your word for it.
863
Q And do you remember that on August 20th of 1999 is when you wrote that David Miscavige affidavit that was used about him ordering the death of — letting — ordering or allowing her or causing her to die? Do you remember that?
A You got me all screwed up on the dates now. Could you just tell me again?
Q The testimony in this case is that the Key West trip was around August 8, 9, 10, 11 of 1999. Or 12th of 1999.
A Whose testimony is that now?
Q Mr. Dandar’s testimony, Dr. Garko’s testimony, Mr. Haney’s testimony. That is the testimony.
A Okay.
Q All right? You executed an affidavit — the affidavit in this case, part of what this hearing is about, on August 20 of 1998?
THE COURT: We are talking about that is the date he signed it?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes, that is the date he signed it.
THE COURT: You are not going to suggest to this witness that whole affidavit was written on the date it was —
MR. WEINBERG: I wasn’t going to ask that.
864
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Just ten or fifteen days later you executed this affidavit, right?
A Correct.
Q Now, did you participate in any conversations in Key West with anyone, whether it is Ford Greene, lawyer on Scientology cases, or Dandar Leipold, or Ken Dandar, or Dr. Garko or Thom Haverty, part of the — part of the Lisa McPherson team, did you have conversations with anybody down there about any of the assertions in this what became the August 20th affidavit?
A Not that I recall.
Q Did you have any discussions down there with anyone about adding David Miscavige as a strategy to the Lisa McPherson case?
A Not that I recall.
Q As far as you know, was anybody down there talking about the strategy of adding David Miscavige to the Lisa McPherson case?
A Not that I know of.
Q And was it —
A Or not that I recall or have memory of.
Q But you did leave Key West and go directly to Tampa, correct, after that trip that you call a fishing trip?
865
A I believe that — that that is correct.
Q And as soon as you got to Tampa, you started work — you must have started working on this affidavit. Right?
A I think that affidavit was a work in progress by the time I got to Tampa already. If you notice — I mean, that thing is pretty detailed. I have references. I have studied. You know, it takes me time to do these affidavits.
I just don’t sit and imagine it. I have my calendar, I have my notes or whatever and I sit and I do these things.
Q But the first check you got from Mr. Dandar was June 30, 1999. Correct?
A If that is what you just showed me, I’ll take your word for it. Okay.
Q So as you look back, as you think back, do you recall whether you were working on this affidavit before you went to Key West?
A I’m pretty sure that was a work in progress.
Q So you had already had discussions with people about adding Mr. Miscavige to the case?
A I don’t know. I don’t recall it so I’m going to say I don’t know.
THE COURT: The only thing I’m going to allow you to inquire about — remember we had this little business about the work product — is the meeting
866
which is at issue in this case, the meeting, whether Minton was there and whether Minton influenced that. Whether this man, as a consultant, paid or otherwise, had a conversation about adding David Miscavige is what I would have expected him to add. Nothing sinister about that.
MR. WEINBERG: Nothing said it was sinister, except Mr. Dandar already asked Dr. Garko about meetings, Mr. Haney about meetings, Ms. Brooks about meetings, so —
THE COURT: Meetings? What meetings? The only person that I know of that was asked about the Key West meetings was you-all. Maybe he brought it up —
MR. WEINBERG: He brought it up on May 3rd.
You didn’t let me cross-examine him. Mr. Dandar is the one that brought up the Key West meeting, said that is where he —
THE COURT: Well, do you think I think all those people sat down there and didn’t talk about this case?
MR. WEINBERG: No, I don’t.
THE COURT: I don’t care what they said.
MR. WEINBERG: I’m just —
THE COURT: I mean, you know —
867
MR. WEINBERG: I —
THE COURT: You are acting as if you have a jury here that — I’m a judge that has been involved in this case very deeply, and as I tried to suggest to you on several occasions, I’m not an idiot.
MR. WEINBERG: I know that.
THE COURT: I know what lawyers do.
MR. WEINBERG: I understand that.
THE COURT: And I know if you get this many lawyers together, all of whom have Scientology cases, you put them on fishing trip or movie theater or whatever, the subject comes up and they talk about it.
MR. WEINBERG: And you couldn’t have said it better, and I’m making a record which I’m done with on this thing —
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: — indicating that this witness, that is what this — you know, this Paragraph 34 in the complaint is all about, his sworn affidavit, has told lies. You know, I’m using that —
THE COURT: I already told you and I told your team, save it for the jury. I don’t care if he told a bunch of lies or not. The law in Florida is if he qualifies as an expert, he can testify.
868
MR. WEINBERG: No, I understand your ruling. I’m —
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: This is for credibility purposes.
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. WEINBERG: All right. But I’m pretty much done with this area.
THE COURT: All right. Then let’s have lunch.
MR. WEINBERG: Good.
THE COURT: And as I said, you just have to forget — I hope you all don’t forget that I was a lawyer for a long time.
MR. WEINBERG: Judge, believe me —
THE COURT: Please.
MR. WEINBERG: — I am well aware of that.
THE COURT: Frankly, my findings will go to the court this time with a presumption of correctness.
This is not a de novo hearing —
MR. WEINBERG: No, I understand that.
THE COURT: — by the Second District.
MR. WEINBERG: No, but it has also been a long proceeding.
THE COURT: Well, I understand, but it seems to me as if part of what you want to do is have
869
Mr. Prince up here just forever. I made statements before about Mr. Prince. I’m aware of Mr. Prince’s bias. I mean, Mr. Minton, according to Mr. Prince, shows where I said this before, this is not new.
MR. WEINBERG: I understand, but I just started yesterday — I mean, yesterday late —
THE COURT: I understand. But you are spending an awful lot of time about pickets which I knew what they would say, with pickets that I knew would not be pretty, all as if you are trying to show me what I already know. You are wasting time here.
MR. WEINBERG: But —
THE COURT: We’ll be in recess until 1:30.
(WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 12:00 to 1:35 p.m.)
______________________________________870
REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties’ attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action.
DATED this 10th day of July, 2002.
______________________________
LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
Stacy Brooks Young: Scientology’s reign of terrorism is at an end (September 3, 1998)
Title: Scientology’s reign of terrorism is at an end
Author: stacy8@gte.net (Stacy Brooks Young)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 05:52:14 GMTBy now everyone should have seen the lengthy message Vaughn posted last night.
For various reasons he did not want to discuss what he has been doing until now,
and I realize this silence has created concern and allowed Scientology to hope
for the worst. But Vaughn is, more than ever, doing what he does best in this
battle with Scientology. He and I are in daily contact, and I suggest that any
hope Scientology may have had that they could drive a wedge between Vaughn and
me is just as futile now as it ever was when we were inside the cult. It will
never happen.Now it is time to bring everyone up to date on the relentless campaign of
intimidation and harassment to which both Bob Minton and I have been subjected
recently. It is a campaign which has increased dramatically since Jesse Prince
emailed Bob at FACTNet after hearing about the Dateline program and, shortly
thereafter, met with me in Columbus, Ohio. It will become clear as you read this
report that Scientology is terrified of what Jesse’s information is going to do.
So terrified, in fact, that they have literally made death threats against him.
But let me start earlier.It began on July 7, while I was in Columbus, Ohio, for a meeting with Brian
Haney and Bob. That evening when I checked my email I found that the executive
director of FACTNet had forwarded a message to me that Jesse Prince had sent to
Bob Minton. In the email message Jesse suggested to Bob that he check with
Vaughn and me about who he was, since the three of us had worked together
extensively when we were in Scientology. He included a cell phone number in his
message. I called him immediately and left a message giving him my hotel phone
number.I had known Jesse since 1976 in Scientology and was thrilled to see that he was
reaching out to re-establish contact. He had been third in command of
Scientology, under David Miscavige and Vicki Aznaran, from 1982 until he was
busted, along with Vicki and many others (including Vaughn), by DM in 1987.
Jesse had always been a kind-hearted person, even when he had every reason to
advance his own position by becoming one of DM’s vicious lieutenants. Jesse
never crossed that threshold. He always remained my friend and someone that I
and others could trust not to sell us out.I also knew that Jesse would be David Miscavige’s worst nightmare if he decided
to come forward to expose what he knows about Scientology. He was not just in
the inner circle; Jesse was in the innermost inner sanctum, privy to all of the
illegalities, covert operations, destruction of enemies, and degradation of Sea
Org staff – all order by Miscavige. He was also a direct witness to the rift
between LRH, Pat Broeker and DM which began in 1981 and increased as LRH and
Broeker realized with growing alarm that DM was wresting control of Scientology
away from them. I was electrified at the possibility that Jesse and I might
re-connect. The ramifications for the battle being waged to reform Scientology
were staggering. I knew that if Jesse came forward with the information he had,
it would mean the end of DM’s reign of terror. I also knew that Jesse would be
in serious danger as soon as DM found that that he had contacted me. But Jesse
had always been fearless when I knew him. I hoped he would still be that way.On Wednesday, July 8, Bob left Columbus in the morning and I spent several hours
finishing up some business with Brian. When I got back to my hotel at 3:30 I had
a message from Jesse Prince asking me to call him on his cell phone. When I
heard Jesse’s voice again, after not having seen or heard from him for nine
years, I literally cried with joy. I called him right away and he answered on
the first ring. He was sitting in a bar in downtown Boston with some friends
when I reached him. We were so happy to hear each other’s voices that we
practically shouted at each other, it was such an emotional moment for us. The
idea that we had both survived so much, and that our friendship had survived all
these years and was as strong as ever, was just too much for us. I was the first
friend Jesse had contacted since he had gone into hiding after he left
Scientology and they began coming after him.Immediately, without even thinking about it, my support for Jesse was
unconditional. Whatever you need to recover, I told him, I’ll help you get it.
This is how I feel about Jesse and every other victim of the unspeakable abuse
and degradation to which DM subjects his subordinates. I experienced the
nightmare myself. I know the horror he survived. Jesse is my friend. He is a
decent, kind-hearted, caring person. He’s no angel and never claimed to be, any
more than I am. But I will help him in any way I can. He knows it, and we trust
each other, and nothing Scientology can do will ever drive a wedge between us.I arranged for Jesse to fly to Columbus that very night. He didn’t even have
time to go back to his hotel to get his suitcase. Brian and I met him at the
airport and when he walked down that ramp I can’t remember ever being happier to
see anyone than I was to see Jesse that night. We stayed up for hours just
catching up on each other’s experiences. He filled in the missing pieces for me
about the dismal failure of the 1987 attempted coup, when Pat Broeker sent
Vicki Aznaran, Jesse Prince and Spike Bush on a mission to the secret base of
international Scientology management in Gilman Hot Springs to remove Miscavige
from post and take over command of Scientology. I won’t retell the whole story
here because Jesse can do that much better than I, but it answered many
questions that I had had. At the same time, I was able to fill in missing pieces
for Jesse, since I had been in the LRH biography unit in LA under Vaughn and
Broeker at the time, and had therefore been directly and catastrophically
affected by the upheaval caused by their failed coup.Jesse and I spent all day Thursday together, just catching each other up and
re-establishing our friendship. Jesse told me how difficult it had been for him
to make the transition back to the real world after sixteen years in the bizaare
“through-the-looking-glass” world of the Sea Org. He told me that during the
first five years after he escaped, he felt he had hit rock bottom and it seemed
as if he had suffered just about all the loss possible for him. He said he had
felt as if he had nothing else to lose for a time. He had been forced to declare
bankruptcy in 1994 and start all over again. He said he found that he was so
unsocialized that he literally could not work with other people, because no
matter what he did, he just couldn’t fit in. He said he would experience a
physical revulsion to being around too many people, and sometimes he couldn’t
bear to be around even one other person. To his credit, Jesse started his own
company and was able to pull himself up by his bootstraps and begin the long
journey toward becoming a functioning member of society. By the time he and I
met, Jesse said he felt he was finally gaining some stability personally and
some success in his business. He was coming back to himself, he said, and coming
back to the world, and it was finally OK for him to be doing that.Jesse told me that for several years after he left, he had avoided any contact
with Scientology or Scientologists to try to separate himself from the deep
deception and delusion that, as far as Jesse was concerned, happens to anyone
who practices and associates with Scientology for any length of time. But at the
end of June, he said, he was in Chicago visiting his family, and his cousin told
him she had seen a program on NBC’s Dateline about a guy named Bob Minton. She
told Jesse that Bob helped people get out of Scientology and exposed the abusive
and deceptive practices of the Scientology cult.Two weeks later, for the first time ever, Jesse logged onto the Internet. He did
it via a computer at a cyber-cafe in Minneapolis, and he found
alt.religion.scientology. According to Jesse, he could hardly believe what he
was seeing! He had never seen so many people unafraid to stand up and tell the
truth about the misery that families and friends have suffered at the hands of
Scientology. He came across the FACTNet web page and saw something about Vaughn
and me, and that was how it all began. The more we talked, the more Jesse’s
conviction grew that it was time for him to stand up and tell his story and do
everything possible to end the abuse of Scientology. We talked about how
Scientology would go after him, how they would do everything they could to ruin
his life, discredit him, portray him as a criminal, a pervert and worse. He knew
he would be subjecting his own family to harassment and abuse if he took a
public stand against them. And he knew it was very possible he could be in
physical danger. But Jesse’s strength and courage increased before my very eyes.
By Thursday evening, Jesse was committed to exposing the evil of Scientology,
whatever the cost.Although I didn’t know it until several days later, it was on July 9 that the
Boston Globe published its huge article about Bob’s battle with the Church of
Scientology. It was extremely favorable toward Bob, and extremely critical of
Scientology.After an emotionally exhausting couple of days with Jesse, on Friday morning,
July 10, I flew to Boston to meet my family for a week-long vacation on Cape
Cod, while Jesse returned home to Minneapolis to prepare for his life to change
radically. We were in touch every day while I was in South Harwich, because as
soon as Jesse touched down in Minneapolis he discovered he was being followed,
and we realized that Scientology had had us under surveillance in Columbus.
Because of the information Jesse has, we had to assume he and I both would at
the very least be under continual surveillance once Scientology found out he had
hooked up with me.I suggested it would be wise for Jesse to meet with attorney Dan Leipold in
Santa Ana, California, just south of Los Angeles. I thought Jesse should speak
to an attorney as soon as possible about the legal risks to which he was
exposing himself by taking on Scientology. Dan is one of the most experienced
attorneys I know in the strange world of Scientology litigation. He is also
representing Lawrence Wollersheim in the FACTNet litigation and I thought he
would probably be interested in what Jesse knew about possible fraud concerning
the copyrights in question in the FACTNet case. Jesse was extremely apprehensive
about flying to LA, since it was in that city that much of his nightmarish
Scientology experiences occurred. I offered to meet him in LA so that he would
not have to deal with the painful memories alone. He accepted my offer with
great relief and I arranged for both of us to fly into Los Angeles on Saturday
evening, July 18, after my family vacation was over. .Little did either of us realize that painful memories would be the least of
Jesse’s difficulties during his stay in Los Angeles.I arrived several hours before Jesse, on Saturday evening, July 18. A dear
friend of both Jesse’s and mine met me at the airport and treated me to a
leisurely dinner until it was time to meet Jesse’s plane. Jesse and our friend
had not seen each other since the late 1970s, so it was a dramatic reunion.
Moreover, they had much to reminisce about, since they were both on the infamous
1977-78 RPF in Los Angeles, when the RPF was forced to renovate the
newly-acquired Cedars of Lebanon Hospital, now known simply as “the Complex” and
best-known for the fact that the entire complex of buildings is painted light
blue. Thirty hours on, three off, that was the schedule during the horrific
sixteen months they spent together in the RPF. Our friend told Jesse the story
of how she escaped, a heartbreaking story Jesse had never heard before, and
Jesse told her what had happened to him after she left Scientology.The reunion of the three of us was deeply moving. I imagine it to be very much
like the emotion that victims of any totalitarian, terrorist regime must
experience when they are reunited after so many years. For us as former Sea Org
members, our relief was in finding that the three of us had survived with our
sanity at least relatively in tact. We are three of the lucky ones. I have
encountered many former Sea Org members who have seemingly irreparable
psychological, emotional and physical damage, and it is heartbreaking to realize
that they may very well never fully recover. That night Jesse, our mutual friend
and I were poignantly aware of our good fortune.The next day the harassment began.
Jesse and I took a short drive for some morning coffee at Starbuck’s and quickly
realized we were being followed. We decided to confirm our suspicion by taking a
circuitous route and, sure enough, we confirmed without a shadow of a doubt that
we had tail. There were two different cars on us, and wherever we went one or
the other was always behind us.The next day we visited a former Scientologist in a suburb north of Los Angeles.
While we were there, a neighbor called to say there were two cars parked outside
of her house, and that a man had actually come to her door trying to get
information about Jesse and me. The neighbor described the cars for us and gave
us the license plates. She also assured us that she had totally refused to
cooperate with Scientology’s hired thugss.When Jesse and I left our friend’s house several hours later, sure enough, the
two cars the neighbor had described pulled out and began to follow us. It was
dark by then, and the truth is that neither Jesse nor I see very well at night.
So we got lost several times and ended up driving around in circles trying to
get home. Somehow our tail got in front of us, and we laughed as we pulled up
behind them at a stoplight. When the light turned green, our Scientology friends
sped off into the darkness, undoubtedly embarrassed at their clumsy attempt at
surveillance. By the way, Scientology has no idea how many quiet enemies it has.
The friend with whom Jesse and I were staying had another houseguest at the
time, a non-Scientologist. He jumped right into the fray, directing us to park
our car in a parking lot near our friend’s house, picking us up in his own car,
getting us to lie down on the back seat so the Scientology tails wouldn’t see
us, and safely delivering us home. All the while, private investigators were
circling the house as if we were carrion. And Jesse hadn’t said a word about
Scientology yet!I had to leave Jesse in LA to go to Wellspring (that will be the subject of a
separate post coming very soon), but Vaughn flew down to be with him so he
wouldn’t be alone. The day after I left, Vaughn and Jesse were at Dan Leipold’s
officeworking on a declaration for the FACTNet case concerning Scientology’s
extensive copyright fraud. Suddenly Jesse heard someone shouting his name
through the window.“Hey, Jesse! Come out here!” they were yelling. It was obvious that the two
people were OSA operatives, so, of course, Jesse didn’t go outside. One of the
operatives finally opened the door himself and threw a letter addressed to Jesse
inside the door. It was a letter threatening to sue Jesse if he said a word
about what he knew about Scientology. But, as Jesse told me on the phone that
night, it was too late to frighten him. The blanket of fear was being rolled
back, and the war was on.Two days later Jesse was falsely detained by two private investigators at four
in the morning as he returned to his hotel. As he pulled into the parking lot,
they pulled up behind him so that he couldn’t move his car and handed him
another threatening letter. Jesse lost his temper at them, and one of the PI’s
responded by screaming at Jesse, “You black motherfucker! I’m going to blow your
damn head off!”As Jesse said later, that PI obviously didn’t realize that as a veteran Sea Org
member, Jesse was quite used to racial slurs. Jesse just watched the guy spit
and stammer, and then he chased him to the highway in his red convertible
Mustang.Meanwhile, I left Los Angeles and flew to Boston on Friday, July 24. I was
literally exhausted after the harassment Jesse and I had been subjected to in
L.A., and I badly needed a rest. Bob met me at the airport and told me that
someone pretending to be my “travel agent” had called the house in Boston the
night before and told Therese what flight I was coming in on. Although Therese
already knew about the relationship between Bob and me and knew that I was
flying to Boston, having an obvious Scientology operative call her and throw
this in her face had been extremely upsetting for her, particularly because she
was scheduled to leave for England Friday morning with the two girls. Bob told
me about this phone call on the way to his house in Sandown, New Hampshire,
where we planned to spend a quiet weekend before I went to Wellspring. But as
all of you know by now, it turned out to be anything but a quiet weekend in New
Hampshire.On Saturday afternoon, July 25, Bob and I were swimming in the pool on his
property in New Hampshire. Bob was telling me about a phone call he had received
from high-level Scientology operative Mike Rinder. Bob was telling me that
Scientology had had Jesse and me under surveillance when we met for the first
time in Columbus, Ohio, on Wednesday, July 8, and that the reason he knew this
was that on Sunday, July 19, he had received a telephone call from Rinder.
During the phone call Rinder let Bob know that he was aware that Jesse Prince
had met with me in Ohio, and he demanded to know if Jesse Prince was on Bob’s
payroll, meaning was he now paying Jesse to do anti-Scientology work. Bob told
me he had replied that he was not, but because of that phone call Bob had known
the harassment of both Jesse and me was going to increase, and that was exactly
what had happened in Los Angeles.This was at about 5:00 p.m. on Saturday afternoon. I suddenly looked up the hill
toward the driveway and saw someone standing at the top of the hill near the
barn, looking down at us in the pool. When another person appeared and began to
shout my name along with outrageous obscenities, we both realized with alarm
that it was Scientologists on Bob’s property.As Bob wrote in his report to the New Hampshire prosecutor, “At that point I
knew that the Scientologists were trespassing on my property and invading my
privacy for the express purpose of continuing their campaign of harassment and
intimidation against Stacy Young and myself. Having experienced this harassment
for the past year, I was fully aware that these people are fanatical in their
beliefs and that they had been indoctrinated into believing that both Stacy
Young and I were dangerous criminals. There is a policy in Scientology known as
“Fair Game,” which states that anyone who is a threat to Scientology can be
“lied to, tricked, sued, and destroyed” in any way necessary without the
perpetrator being punished in any way. I fully believed this to be the state of
mind of the Scientologists on my property and considered that both Stacy Young
and I were in physical danger as long as these people were trespassing on my
property.As everyone knows, the final outcome of this incident was that no charges were
filed against Bob and the Scientologists were warned never to set foot on his
property again. But it was an extremely stressful weekend.The next day, Sunday, July 26, Bob got a call from Therese in England saying
that a letter had been hand-delivered to her father’s house outside of London.
The letter was signed by Mike Rinder and was filled with terrible information
about a number of people that Bob has assisted, but the majority of the letter
was filled with scurrilous information about me, clearly calculated to upset
Therese as much as possible.Later that day, Bob drove me down to Boston so I could take a flight to
Columbus, Ohio, and from there I drove south to Wellspring. As soon as I
arrived, I arranged for Jesse to fly to New Hampshire to stay with Bob to make
sure he was safe while I was in Ohio. Jesse flew to Boston on July 27 and was
there until August 8. As I had expected, Jesse and Bob became the best of
friends during the week he stayed there.Later Jesse would tell me that he was amazed to meet Bob, and utterly surprised
to meet someone who has compassion for people who have had a bad experience that
he has not personally had. As Jesse pointed out, the common reaction of people
toward ex-cult members is that they are strange and somehow basically stupid ,
easily manipulated people. But the fact of the matter is that it’s just plain
bad luck when a person gets into a cult, and it could and does happen to almost
anyone. Bob understands that, and Jesse loves him for it.As Jesse told me after his trip to New Hampshire, “Bob restored my faith and
belief in humanity. I don’t know how else to describe it beyond that. Bob has
the courage of a lion and the heart and mind of an angel. He is not afraid of
anything I’ve seen yet.”From New Hampshire Jesse flew to Minneapolis to pack up his things and get ready
for his life to change radically. Vaughn flew to Minneapolis to meet Jesse so
that he would have someone with him while he prepared to move to Boulder. The
most difficult part about getting Vaughn to Minneapolis was that MacPherson, our
85-pound dog, had to go with him. Mac is the dog who was kidnapped last February
and beaten brutally while Vaughn was in Germany testifying against Scientology.
You’ll be glad to know that he has fully recovered from the beating. The only
vestige of it is that he is missing all of his bottom front teeth, but that
doesn’t bother Mac at all. He and Vaughn are inseparable, so, of course, he goes
everywhere Vaughn goes. He is a very large dog (and an excellent watchdog – if
anyone ever tried to hurt Vaughn they would probably lose an arm) so it took a
while to find a crate big enough to hold him, and then we had to find a flight
that would allow him on. But we solved all of these logistical problems and
Vaughn and Mac arrived safely in Minneapolis.FACTNet purchased a car for Jesse’s use when he got to Minneapolis. Two days
later, one of Scientology’s hired thugs kicked in the passenger door of the car
(there is a picture of kicked-in door on alt.binaries.scientology).Jesse took Vaughn on a fairly wild journey to Chicago, where he got a chance to
meet Jesse’s Blues/Rock Star brother Ron. In vintage Jesse style, the two of
them ran all around the North and South sides of Chicago, visting old friends
and having a good time meeting new people.They left Chicago and went to visit Jesse’s daughter and his grandchildren in a
small town in southern Illinois, then headed for Memphis, Tennesse, where
Jesse’s father and sister live. As it happened, Vaughn checked into a hotel
right across the street from Graceland, and it happened to be Elvis week. So
Vaughn enjoyed the Elvis celebration while Jesse had a great time with his
father and sister, whose birthday happened to be just when they were there. The
best part of the trip for Jesse, though, was that he met his great-nephew
Malachi, who is two years old and, according to Jesse, is a “joy to behold.”While Jesse and Vaughn were ennroute to Denver, I was finishing my stay at
Wellspring. What an incredible place!Because of several extremely harassive visits from Scientology private
investigator Eugene Ingram a few years back, Wellspring has a gate at the
beginning of their driveway which they kept locked most of the time while I was
there to protect me from being harassed. So my two-week stay was wonderfully
free of Scientologists or private investigators — until Bob Minton arrived
toward the end of my stay. He came to Wellspring so that he and I could speak to
one of the counselors there together. As he drove up to the Wellspring gate he
was met with several scruffy looking individuals who soon made it clear that
they were Scientologists, there to take photographs of Bob and me.We took down their license plate numbers and reported them to the local sheriff,
who was already familiar with their tactics because of the trouble Wellspring
had had with Scientology earlier. The sheriff was very supportive and told us to
let him know immediately if we had any further instances of being followed or
harassed in any way. We assumed the Scientologists found out that the sheriff
was on the look-out for them, because we didn’t see them again for the duration
of our stay.When we left Wellspring Bob and I stopped briefly in Washington, D.C., to have
dinner with a high-level media contact, and then on Sunday, August 9, I returned
to Vashon Island and he flew back to Boston.Vaughn and Jesse made it to Denver in time for Jesse to be deposed in the
FACTNet case in a grueling three-day confrontation with Scientology attorney
Samuel Rosen. I met Jesse in Denver on Tuesday, August 18, so that I could
attend the deposition as a FACTNet director. Also attending were Ford Greene,
representing Jesse, Dan Leipold, representing Lawrence Wollersheim, Lawrence
himself (who is also named in the suit as an individual), and, sitting on
Rosen’s side of the table for Scientology, Mike Rinder and RTC staff member
Allan Cartwright. Jesse was senior to both of these Scientology operatives when
he was in RTC, so it was fascinating to observe these two as they reacted to
Jesse’s testimony. I won’t go into details here about the deposition, because it
will be the subject of another post once Scientology’s protective order is
lifted. I will say, however, that I have never seen anyone treated with more
contempt, discourtesy and blatant racism than Jesse was by Sam Rosen in that
deposition. It was staggering. To Jesse’s credit, he maintained his composure
throughout the deposition and never once rose to Rosen’s bait. Jesse is truly
and profoundly a gentleman.One night while we were all in Denver, Scientology sent a call girl in on Jesse
to try to entrap him. The woman stole a $100 bill that Jesse put on the table
to pay for the drink he had bought her in the bar of the hotel where we were
staying. Jesse was so irritated that she had stolen his money!“Now, I know this girl was being well paid,” Jesse laughingly complained to me
later. “Why did she have to rob poor me?”Oddly, Scientology also hired a gay man to try to entrap Jesse. Anyone who knows
Jesse Prince at all can tell you that he has never had any interest and probably
never will have any interest in anything but women. As Jesse put it, “With all
the pc folder information they have about me and use against me, I have no idea
why they thought I might go for a gay guy.”Needless to say, Jesse didn’t fall for either of Scientology’s attempts to
entrap him.After the deposition Jesse remained in Boulder to begin a thorough debriefing
with Lawrence Wollersheim, and I returned to Vashon Island. (This debriefing
will be the subject of a series of stunning posts in the near future.)Neither Ford Greene, Dan Leipold, Jesse nor I had been aware of any surveillance
while the deposition was ongoing. But as soon as Ford, Dan and I left and Jesse
was alone in Boulder, the PIs descended upon him in force. Jesse told me that
one day the PIs were following him in such a harassive way that he was forced to
call the police four times. The police ordered a female PI to leave Jesse alone
and watched to make sure she didn’t follow Jesse as he drove away. But when he
arrived at the house where he was staying, the very same female PI was waiting
for him, laughing, in front of the house.During this same period of time, on Monday, August 24, Scientologists picketed
the financial district in Boston and for several hours distributed fliers
concerning the relationship between Bob Minton and me. It was the distribution
of these fliers that prompted Bob to post his now-famous message on a.r.s. in
which he announced that he and I are getting married. What immediately preceeded
this post was a private email from one of the regulars on a.r.s. attacking Bob
really harshly for “not living up to proper moral standards.” He was extremely
upset by the distribution of the fliers, and the private message just hit him
the wrong way. He tried to reach me before he posted his announcement but I was
in Seattle and unreachable. When he finally reached me in the early evening, he
was extremely upset about what had happened that day and told me the stress of
Scientology’s harassment had nearly broken him. He read me what he had posted
about our relationship. I suppose it was because of the stress of having
Scientology turn our personal lives into a fishbowl that we decided that night
that we would no longer hide our relationship in any way.The next morning Bob flew into Seattle. I was there to meet him, and as we got
off the escalator from the gate, we nearly ran into four picketers holding signs
about Bob Minton and me. This was the first of a series of pickets which have
happened everywhere we have flown in the past two weeks. Somehow the
Scientologists know when both of us are flying, what airlines we are taking, our
flight number and the gate where we will arrive in the airport. They have met
every plane either of us has taken since Bob’s post on August 23.They have picketed not only our flghts. Bob was in Seattle from Tuesday, August
24, until Thursday, August 26, when we both flew to San Francisco. While he was
in Seattle the Scientologists picketed the hotel where we were staying in
downtown Seattle and my cat sanctuary on Vashon Island. The hotel security ran
them off at the hotel, and Vashon’s local sheriff ordered them off the island
when he discovered them on Vashon.On Wednesday, August 25, my assistant at the sanctuary reported to me that she
had received two telephone death threats. The calls seemed to come from two
different people, and both callers assumed that it was I who answered the phone.
The callers said roughly the following:“Listen, you fucking cunt, you better get that black bastard in the witness
protection program because we’re going to fucking kill him. Do you understand,
you fucking whore?”Forgive my language, but I want you to have the full impact of these calls. My
assistant was terrified, and Bob and I were both extremely alarmed at this
dramatic shift in Scientology’s approach. I called Jesse and Lawrence
immediately to let them both know Scientology was now threatening to kill Jesse.
Soon afterwards I received two telephone calls from the FBI wanting full details
of the telephone death threats. I spoke to the FBI agents at great length,
briefing them on the full implications of Jesse’s knowledge of Scientology’s
crimes and assuring them that the Scientology leadership is perfectly capable of
murdering Jesse to keep his knowledge from ever surfacing. To my knowledge, the
FBI has had Jesse under surveillance protection ever since and is keeping
detailed records of all the Scientology tails they are able to ascertain.Bob and I flew to San Francisco on Friday, August 28, to meet with Ford Greene
and several other people. Our departure was not without incident, as a lone
picketer said goodbye to us as we boarded the plane at the Seattle airport. When
we arrived at the San Francisco airport we were confronted with several
picketers with signs about Bob and me. They were extremely rude and continued to
harass us until we reached the baggage claim area of the airport.The next day Bob and I, along with Grady Ward, Keith Henson, and several others,
picketed the San Franicisco org. Several Scientologists came out and distributed
leaflets about Bob Minton and me to anyone who received a flier about Lisa
McPherson from Grady Ward or a flier about Xenu from Kristi. Kristi, I might
add, is better at working a crowd than anyone I’ve seen at any trade show.
Otherwise, it was a peaceful demonstration that concluded without further
incident.The next morning Therese Minton called Bob to let him know that Scientologists
had picketed their homes in Boston and New Hampshire, in both locations passing
out fliers about Bob and me. She was angry at the despicable tactics of the
Scientologists and concerned that these fliers were being passed out where
friends of the Minton children might recieve them. Therese had gone out and
photographed the picketers. She was not in the least bit intimidated by them.
She was merely furious at them for their hypocrisy in feigning concern for the
children while doing everything possible to hurt them.This incident upset Bob a great deal, and after a meeting with Grady, we were
ready for a long walk in downtown San Francisco just to try to relax. We set out
from our hotel toward Fisherman’s Wharf. When we had walked several blocks Bob
decided we should turn back and get a map from the Fairmont Hotel. We were
nearly to the front door of the Fairmont when we suddenly realized that one of
the Scientology operatives we had seen at the org the day before was standing
with his back to us in front of the Fairmont, holding a walkie-talkie to his
mouth, and saying, “They’re heading back toward their hotel now; they’re in
front of the Fairmont.”We were flabbergasted that we were being stalked like this by Scientology. Bob
was in no mood to be cordial to this Scientology goon. He walked over to him and
demanded to know why he was following us. The Scientologist sneered at Bob and
said, “I’m a citizen of San Francisco. I have as much right to be here as you
do.”At that, Bob called the San Franicisco police and reported that we were being
stalked, that we had been met at our gate at the San Francisco airport by
Scientologists, that they were stalking us all across the country, meeting us
wherever we fly, and now here they were stalking us through the streets of San
Francisco. We followed this man for many blocks, deep into the heart of
Chinatown, keeping tabs on him until the police could arrive. Every few feet the
Scientologist (we later found out his name was Mark Warlick) stopped and
pretended to be videoing scenes from Chinatown as if he were a tourist. Later
one of the police officers suggested that he was probably erasing the footage he
had taken of Bob and me in case they confiscated his camera. When the police
arrived the officer did take the video camera, although he later returned it.This Scientologist, Mark Warlick, admitted to the police that he was one of the
people who met us at our gate two days before, so it was obvious to the police
that the Scientologists were harassing us. But when the police sergeant finally
arrived and interviewed both the Scientologist and Bob and me, he came to the
conclusion, albeit reluctantly, that Mark Warlick had not technically broken any
law.“Listen,” he said to us, “you two are celebrities, and there is just no way to
control what people are going to do when you arrive in town. It’s the same
problem politicians have. People picket them, they follow them, they yell at
them, and what can the police do? Unless these people actually break the law, we
can’t arrest them.”This was unnerving to hear from a law enforcement officer. Bob and I looked at
each other in dismay as we realized that what this policeman had just told us
was that Scientology would be able to continue to harass us and there was
nothing the law of the United States could do to stop them.The sergeant did warn Mark Warlick that he had come dangerously close to
breaking the stalking law, and he did tell him to let all the other Scientology
operatives know that if they crossed the line and broke the law they would be
arrested. The sneer on Mark Warlick’s face that he had had when we first saw him
in front of the Fairmont Hotel was definitely gone by the time the police let
him go. But the incident had had a profound effect on Bob and me.We returned to our hotel room and talked about what had happened. What we
realized was that the only way we can deal with the harassment from Scientology
is to refuse to be intimidated by them in any way.We went out and purchased a large portfolio case that holds up to ten picket
signs and sticks. When we left San Francisco for Boulder, Colorado, to visit
Jesse and to have a board meeting with Lawrence Wollersheim, we carried our
portfolio case on board the airplane with us. When we landed in Denver, I got
out my digital camera, and Bob carried the portfolio case with him as we walked
out to the gate.I saw Jesse with several picketers as I rounded the corner to the gate and I
immediately started shooting pictures. Bob pulled out picket signs, handed one
to Jesse and held up one himself, and we immediately turned the tables on these
Scientology picketers. Bob and Jesse were following the picketers and I was
taking photographs of the entire incidents. Bob was announcing to everyone in
the airport that these were Scientologists who were stalking us, following us
everywhere we go and trying to frighten us into silence so we won’t expose the
true nature of their so-called “church.”We got on the shuttle to baggage claim and noticed that the Scientology
picketers purposely did not get on the shuttle. So when our shuttle arrived, we
waited for the next one. When the picketers got off, we began shooting their
photos again and following them with our own picket signs, again announcing
loudly who they were and why they were there. By the time we were finished with
them, these four picketers had their signs between their legs and they were
running out of the airport.The next night Jesse, Lawrence, Bob and I had dinner at the Boulderado Hotel. At
a certain point we recognized someone from the ARSCC Boulder Underground
standing outside the restaurant. Bob went out to say hello and when he came
back, he reported that there were approximately seven to ten Scientology PIs
surrounding the hotel, but that the ARSCC Boulder Underground had successfully
scrambled the radio signals of the PIs and disrupted their surveillance so
effectively that most of them had given up and left.Today I flew home to Seattle and Bob and Jesse flew to Boston. When I arrived on
Vashon Island I was met with picketers right up the street from the sanctuary,
undoubtedly because the sheriff warned them if they trespassed on private
property again he would arrest them.When Jesse and Bob got off their plane in Boston they were met by seven
picketers, including the DSA Maureen O’Keefe, OSA operative Gerard Renna, Frank
Hall, and several others who have picketed in Boston before.Immediately Bob pulled picket signs out of his portfolio case and both of them
held picket signs up while Bob also took photos with his digital camera, so he
could download them right away to post on alt.binries.scientology.Maureen came at Bob with, as he put it, “a stomach that stuck out three feet
from her face,” and holding the taunting a.r.s. post that Bob had sent from the
airplane announcing that he and Jesse were arriving in Boston and providing OSA
with their flight number. Gerard Renna was also trying to get in Bob’s face,
although he is so short that he wasn’t able to reach.Both Jesse and Bob pointed out to Renna on several occasions that he was in
serious need of mouthwash, as they were having a very difficult time every time
he got close to them.The Scientologists were extremely hostile all along, but they were unable to
stop the verbal tech of the tag-team duo, Bob and Jesse. Finally in the baggage
claim area the encounter became so boisterous that the Massachusetts state
troopers had to come in to restore order. When they found out that Jesse and Bob
were passengers who had arrived on a flight from Denver, had been stalked
through the terminal, and were trying to pick up their bags, they told the
Scientologists that had they known they were demonstating at the gate or
anywhere in the airport, for that matter, they would have arrested them, as FAA
regulations prohibit such activities.The Scientologists were removed to a neutral location, where they couldn’t
bother Bob and Jesse while they left the airport.Bob called Therese from the car and told her what had happened at the airport,
but Therese said she wasn’t afraid of “those fools” and told them to go ahead
and go to the house. But four Scientologist followed Bob and Jesse to a house
they knew Bob no longer lives in, specifically for the purpose of upsetting
Therese and the children. Jesse went outside of the Beacon Hill house and spoke
to the four Scientologists. DSA Maureen O’Keefe told the other three to stay
away from Jesse, but Gerard Renna and the other two Scientologists gathered
round him and listened, spellbound, as he told them the real story of life in
the inner circle of Scientology leadership.This conversation with Jesse continued until two Boston police cars arrived and
ordered the Scientologists to leave.From now on, we will document every instance of harassment or attempted
intimidation by Scientology. Soon we’ll have a web page set up that will get
daily updates of harassment from all over the country, complete with photographs
and video footage where appropriate.The reign of terrrorism by these bullies is at an end.