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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,vs.
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants._______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants’ Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
CONTENTS: Testimony of Jesse Prince.1
VOLUME 5
DATE: July 9, 2002. Afternoon Session.
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida.BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge.
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.583
APPEARANCES:
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for PlaintiffMR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. LEE FUGATE
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.584
MR. STEPHEN J. WEIN
Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A.
980 Tyrone Boulevard
St. Petersburg, Florida 33710
Counsel for Robert Minton.585
THE COURT: You may be seated. Okay, before we begin, two questions. Have you decided when you want the trial date, Mr. Dandar?
MR. DANDAR: September.
THE COURT: All right. Have you decided whether or not you need Mr. Rosen?
MR. DANDAR: No, I don’t need Mr. Rosen.
THE COURT: All right. Then I’m going to assume that — I will go ahead and enter an order pro hac vice admitting Mr. Rosen, just in case.
He’ll be admitted, just for this purpose. And I’ll let you have —
MR. FUGATE: Should I prepare an order, Judge?
THE COURT: Do you mind?
MR. FUGATE: No.
THE COURT: Tell him to prepare an order, whatever.
MR. FUGATE: I’ll do it.
MR. DANDAR: So, Judge, since we will start picking a jury for the trial in September, what specific date would that be?
THE COURT: The second week in September. Whatever that Monday is.
MR. DANDAR: All right.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
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MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
THE COURT: That, of course, assumes the motion to dismiss is not granted.
MR. DANDAR: I understand.
THE COURT: Mr. Lirot, are you still of the mind that if Mr. Dandar is removed as counsel, you are prepared on that date?
MR. LIROT: Hope springs eternal, Judge. But yes, Judge, I’ll be prepared on that date if need be.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Mr. Prince, what I was trying to do before the lunch break was finish up on the meetings that you had with Mr. Minton and Stacy Brooks.
A Okay.
Q I believe we left off with your meeting with them when things got a little testy at the hotel for dinner.
A At the Radisson.
Q At the Radisson. In my — your note attached to your affidavit, you said you met with me before you met with them that Sunday. So that was April 14th.
A Okay.
Q All right? So let’s go from then on. What happened after April 14th?
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A Mmm —
THE COURT: I’m sorry, he met with you before he met with them?
MR. DANDAR: That same day. That is where this handwritten note —
THE COURT: Right. For some reason, I thought it was after. But it was before?
MR. DANDAR: On this particular day he met with me at the mall with Mr. Lirot. And that was April 14th.
THE COURT: In the afternoon? Then he went there in the evening?
MR. DANDAR: Then he went there.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q What happened after April 14th?
A Mmm, well, contact again — and I think I mentioned I had the one phone conversation with Mr. Minton where I invited him over to my house.
But they — they talked to me — or got messages to me via my fiancee. They would talk to her.
And if anything happened — we wouldn’t talk, we were not talking.
Q And what messages did you receive from Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks that way?
MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: Hearsay. That would have to be
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hearsay. I mean, that would have nothing to do with Mr. Minton’s state of mind or anything in this proceeding, so you would have to, at the very least, bring in the other person.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q So you never talked with Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks since then directly, one-on-one?
A I talked with Mrs. Brooks. Mmm, she just told me that everything was going to be fine, regardless of whether or not I agreed to go with them or participate in activities with them with Scientology. She just told me things were
going to be okay.Q When did Ms. Brooks stop paying you your monthly income?
A Either March or April.
Q And you said before that you went to Denis deVlaming’s office and spoke with him, and he couldn’t help you because of the conflict of interest. Did you go to any law enforcement?
A Well, it’s not entirely true to say that Mr. DeVlaming couldn’t help me.
What Mr. DeVlaming did do is refer me to his brother because, again, I wanted to somehow get a federal law enforcement involved in this, since my perception was that the criminal activity — conspiracy and criminal activity happened at least in New
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York, New Hampshire and Clearwater.
Mmm, he said that he would talk with a federal agent that he did know and get back with me. He — I guess maybe a day or so later, he had a conversation with the federal agent, Mr. Douglas DeVlaming.
And he told me, after speaking with an agent, they thought that it would make a difficult case because Mr. Minton was now on the stand lying, telling lies. If he changed his mind —
MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Did you ever meet personally with law enforcement?
A Yes, I did.
Q All right. Who did you meet with?
A I met with FDLE Agent Lee Strope.
Q Did you talk about Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks?
A I pretty much gave Mr. Strope a complete rundown of the meetings, with the dates similar to how I laid it out there in the affidavit. And after —
THE COURT: Mr. Strope is with what agency?
THE WITNESS: FDLE.
THE COURT: FDLE?
A And after speaking with him, he asked me to give Bob Minton a message. And the message was that if it is determined that you have perjured yourself on the stand,
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that he would see to it that charges would be brought.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q This is Mr. Strope telling you to talk to Mr. Minton?
A This is a message Mr. Strope asked me to give Mr. Minton specifically.
Q Did you give him that message?
A Mmm, I wrote — I hand-wrote what he said. I gave it to my fiancee and she read it to Mr. Minton over the phone.
Q Okay.
THE COURT: Mr. Prince, is it your testimony here today under oath an agent of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement asked you to deliver a message to someone?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Any other meetings with law enforcement?
A Not about this specific incident.
Q Okay. Now, what was your impression, after meeting with Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, on the meetings you have just mentioned, all of these meetings —
MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form. What was his impression?
THE COURT: Yes. What does that mean?
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MR. DANDAR: I didn’t finish my sentence.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q What was your impression as to who was the person who was creating the scenario that I told Mr. Minton to lie?
A Mr. Rinder.
Q And what is the basis of that? What is the basis of your impression it is Mr. Rinder?
A Because that is what they said.
Q Who said?
A Bob and Stacy.
Q All right.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, could we just — I mean, is that — your Honor, so his testimony is that at some point Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks said that Mike Rinder said for Mr. Minton to lie?
THE COURT: Yes. That is his testimony.
MR. WEINBERG: Could we date that testimony, please?
THE COURT: Mr. Prince, is that your testimony?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
THE COURT: If you could look at your affidavit and tell us which one of these conversations that that conversation took place.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Let me see if I see it
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here. I don’t seem to have my affidavit up here.
THE COURT: You don’t? I think I have it right here, if it will help.
MR. DANDAR: Well, I have the affidavit right here. I’m sorry. I was looking at it instead of listening to the Court.
THE WITNESS: This would have had to have happened sometime after the date that I mentioned on Page 5, Line 16, Paragraph Number 11 of the 3rd of April or 2nd of April, sometime after that time period.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q After this — after the 2nd or 3rd of April?
A Correct.
Q All right. Did Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks tell you this on more than one occasion?
A Well, the subject of the meetings — after they returned to Clearwater with Mr. Bunker April 2nd, the many times that I met with them, the subject of the conversations concerned what they were asked — or what they were being asked to do, what they wanted me to do.
So that was a continuing theme until, you know, the point that it finally broke off, because I didn’t, I guess, qualify to meet with the Scientologists or speak with them about this myself. But it was a continuing theme of
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conversations.
THE COURT: I believe that, in fairness, Mr. Prince may have testified to some of this yesterday, too.
MR. DANDAR: I think so maybe.
THE COURT: And may have dated some of this yesterday. I’m looking through his affidavit. I am remembering some of his testimony from yesterday.
MR. DANDAR: All right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Now, Mr. Prince, yesterday you talked about Volume 0 and 00. Do you recall that? You looked in the book Introduction To Ethics and you said —
A Yes.
Q — what you were looking for may be in Volume 0 and 00?
A Yes.
Q And there are a bunch of books over there. Are there any of the books you want to refer the Court to?
A Sure, if I could just walk over there.
MR. DANDAR: Is that all right, Judge?
THE COURT: Yes. By the way, Ms. Greenway asked if she could take my picture. You can’t take pictures when court is in session. So I gave her permission to come in and take pictures when court
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wasn’t in session of whatever she wanted to take pictures for. But when court is in session you cannot take pictures unless you are connected with the media and you are a pool photographer. Then you can.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q No other books?
A No.
Q All right.
A This is — first off, I would like to say yesterday that I said that this was a crime for a person to give testimony about Scientology. I actually misspoke. It is a suppressive act to do that, according to this document here, suppressive acts, suppression of Scientology, Scientologists, the fair game law. And what it states specifically is —
THE COURT: Tell us, first of all, what are you reading from.
THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q The book?
A I’m reading from HCO Division 1 Policy Volume, Scientology Policy Volume.
THE COURT: Okay. Those are Scientology policies in a book?
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THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is there a page number?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. It is 553, what I’m going to make reference to.
MR. LIEBERMAN: Could we have the date on that book?
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Copyright on the front?
THE COURT: Would it matter with these policies —
MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, some, it may.
THE WITNESS: This is copyright 1970 through — what is it, 1950, it looks like. These are all of the copyright notices here.
THE COURT: Okay. I’m going to let you-all take a look at it.
MR. WEINBERG: Now? Or —
THE COURT: No. Let him go ahead and have his testimony, and then before cross-examination you-all can look at the book.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q So a suppressive act is someone saying they want to leave Scientology?
A Yes. And testifying as a hostile witness against Scientology in public is a suppressive act.
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Q All right. That has to do with testifying?
A Correct.
Q What about leaving Scientology or saying you want to leave?
A Mmm, yesterday I showed the reference and we went through that. It’s a high crime to publicly depart Scientology.
Q This may be something I already marked. Let me show you what has been marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit 133. CS Series 22.
Can you identify that Exhibit 133?
A Yes. This is an HCO bulletin of 28 November, 1970, Mmm, subtitled “CS Series 22.” The “CS Series” means case supervisor series. It’s — it’s a series that is a staple or basic for persons that are supervising auditing in Scientology. And this document refers to the subject of psychosis.
Q And this document came from the PTS/SP course book you read yesterday. Is that correct?
A Correct.
Q Okay. Now —
THE COURT: Who is permitted to take that course? Maybe you asked it before, but, I mean, if I’m a new Scientologist, new public member, can I go register for that course?
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THE WITNESS: You certainly could. Any Scientologist in good standing —
THE COURT: Could take that course?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q This course book also contains the search and discovery bulletin?
A I believe it does.
Q Okay. Now, this particular document, Exhibit 133, CS Series 22, does this have anything to do with people wanting to leave?
A Well, if you turn to the second page, it talks about the easiest ways for a case supervisor to detect the insane, and we go down here to Number 6, it says: “They often seek transfers or wish to leave.”
Q Now, does this apply to staff as well as public members?
A Absolutely.
THE COURT: I think this is already in evidence, isn’t it?
MR. DANDAR: I’m not sure. You told me to mark this yesterday as an exhibit.
THE COURT: Well, now that I’m looking at it, I’m thinking I read it before. But if you are not
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sure, you want to introduce it again, why, that is all right.
MR. DANDAR: I’m really not sure.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. DANDAR: I know we talked about this yesterday.
THE COURT: I’m not positive if this was the document, but I have read some of this before.
MR. DANDAR: Yes. It is quite possible.
MR. WEINBERG: We have no problem, but the next-to-last sentence says: “The insane can be helped, they are not hopeless.” We don’t have a problem with this. But the introspection rundown comes after this policy.
THE COURT: But you have no objection to this being introduced?
MR. WEINBERG: No.
MR. DANDAR: We move it into evidence.
MR. WEINBERG: It was referred to in the introspection rundown which was introduced three or four years later, this policy.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Speaking of the introspection rundown, Mr. Prince, speaking of your experience, expertise, is there any part of
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the introspection rundown that is considered religious?
MR. WEINBERG: Objection to his competence to this because Mr. Prince previously testified he wasn’t trained on the introspection rundown and never — as an auditor never did any introspection rundown.
THE COURT: I thought he did.
THE WITNESS: That is correct. I did. I never was — I never stated that I was not trained on the introspection rundown.
THE COURT: I’m sorry, what?
THE WITNESS: I never stated I was not trained on the introspection rundown. That is false. I am very trained on the introspection rundown.
MR. WEINBERG: What he said was he participated in an isolation watch, not as the auditor, you know, but as one of the people staying with Teresita.
THE COURT: Is isolation watch and introspection rundown the same?
MR. WEINBERG: It is part, Step whatever it is, 0, 00.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. DANDAR: This will kind of answer the question, I think.
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BY MR. DANDAR:
Q So, Mr. Prince, is there parts or all of the introspection rundown that is religious? A religious practice?
A Mmm, in the very first bulletin about the introspection rundown, L. Ron Hubbard describes it as a new technical breakthrough that marveled something else of the 20th century, I forget specifically what it says there. But it was hailed as a researched scientific discovery for handling insanity.
MR. WEINBERG: So, your Honor, is what Mr. Dandar is doing is challenging whether or not the introspection rundown is part of the religion of Scientology? Because if he is, I think that has already been decided in this case and it is not appropriate and we should not be wasting our time on it.
THE COURT: Haven’t we decided that — or — I don’t know because I don’t know — I saw a motion once that dealt with religiocity. I didn’t hear any of that.
MR. DANDAR: That was not the —
MR. LIEBERMAN: But you have stated several times, your Honor, that there is no question in this case as to the religious nature of Scientology or
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religious nature of the introspection rundown.
THE COURT: Okay. I know I have stated that I have no question on the — that the Church of Scientology is a religion and it is a recognized religion in the Church. And I have no question in my mind that Lisa McPherson was undergoing some sort of introspection rundown. I didn’t know whether I said that introspection rundown is part of the religion of the Church. I don’t even know if that is a call for me to make, to tell you the truth. I would suspect the Church doctrine would tell us whether it is or isn’t.
MR. LIEBERMAN: That is correct. And the Church characterizes what is religious practice.
THE COURT: I don’t know if I have seen that or not. I know we have a Mr. Rice affidavit. I haven’t looked at it in some time.
MR. LIEBERMAN: And he quite clearly places it within the Scientology practice. In fact, every part of Scientology, by definition, is part of Scientology belief and practice and is not a matter for the Court to challenge what is characterized by the Church as this religion.
THE COURT: I am going to let him answer this. I think he already has answered it, but I don’t know
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we’re going to go there. And certainly one answer isn’t going to get it there.
MR. DANDAR: Right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Mr. Prince, Mr. Hubbard called it scientific breakthrough?
A That is correct.
Q Did he ever call it religious practice?
A Never.
Q Did he call auditing a religious practice?
A No.
Q Oh.
A Not to my knowledge. I mean, this whole business of religion — I don’t know, you know, it is kind of — has kind of reared its head in Scientology every now and again. When I was here at the Flag Service Organization in 1979, there was a scare — a cold war scare of some nuclear threat and conscription in the Army and on and on. This is what we were told. So all of the staff had to do a two-week course called the minister’s course where you are instantly trained to be a minister. This was part of — a program which, in part, was to kind of improve or create a religious image for Scientology.
But if you will notice, in every document that Mr. Hubbard writes about Scientology, whether or not it is a
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green —
THE COURT: I don’t want to hear this. The United States Government, State of Florida, on and on down, determined Scientology is a religion, the Church of Scientology is a church. I don’t care what they used to think, what they used to say. It doesn’t matter. That is it.
MR. DANDAR: What I’m — I was getting at is just the introspection rundown itself.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q The part of the introspection rundown talking about get some rest —
MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I —
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q — make sure you eat —
MR. WEINBERG: This is precisely why Mr. Prince should not be an expert, considered an expert in Scientology, because as he sits here today, he still is sitting there saying it is not even a religion or a church. He doesn’t recognize it —
THE COURT: He wasn’t. He was talking about some things that were said back in the 1970s when they were all sitting around talking —
MR. WEINBERG: He just said that — well, I
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don’t want to argue with you. I mean, it — that is where he was going with this and that is what this — that is what this is about.
MR. DANDAR: It is not what this is about. I just asked him what I’m asking him now, the introspection rundown, the part that talks about resting and eating — resting and eating, something else —
THE COURT: 0, 00.
MR. DANDAR: Yes, those two steps.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q In your experience within the Church of Scientology, was that ever considered a spiritual or religious part of Scientology?
MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, again, this is unconstitutional inquiry. You can’t bifurcate a religious practice and say part is and part isn’t. To just even hear this testimony is an unconstitutional attack on the religion.
THE COURT: Mr. Lieberman, your objection on that is preserved.
MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you.
A Well, you know, since — you know, people that are atheists or other ideas also rest and sleep. You know, it never came to me that this was a religious experience to
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rest and eat.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Well, and in your knowledge of Scientology, if someone is injected with Valium or chloral hydrate, are they eligible to have auditing?
A According to — Mmm — the HCO bulletin entitled Model Session —
Q How do you spell that?
A Model, M-O-D-E-L, model session, a person who has had drugs or who has used drugs continuously is not eligible for auditing until six weeks after the period of taking the drugs.
Q Now, in your experience with Teresita, you said Dr. Dink, Hubbard’s doctor, came out and injected her with some kind of drug?
A Correct.
Q And she went to sleep?
A Correct.
Q How soon after that did she have auditing?
A Within hours after awaking.
Q Was that within the written policy?
A Is that what now? I’m sorry.
Q Is that per policy to have an auditing right after you have slept off the effects of the drug?
A Well, in the introspection rundown bulletin, it
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states that each program is tailored specifically for the individual. So to that degree, if the person had to sleep first in order to get auditing, they would get the auditing, but then there is also later references in Scientology technology which state that in a period after the auditing that was delivered, while the person was on drugs, you could then go back and check those areas again to make sure that everything is fine.
Q Okay. Let me show you Exhibit 134. And do you recognize where this copy of this Page 258 comes from?
A Yes. This comes from the Hubbard Administrative Dictionary.
Q And what — how does it define the phrase “high crimes”?
A It says: “High crimes. 1. These consist of publicly departing Scientology or committing suppressive acts. Cancellation of certificates, classifications and awards and becoming fair game are amongst the penalties which can be leveled for this type of offense as well as those recommended by Committees of Evidence.”
MR. DANDAR: Okay. That is all of the questions I have.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may inquire.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
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CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Mr. Prince, David Miscavige busted you from your position of authority — your executive position of authority in the RTC — in March of 1987, didn’t he?
A Correct.
THE COURT: I’m sorry, you just got started.
Did you want to introduce this 134?
MR. DANDAR: Yes, sir. In fact —
MR. WEINBERG: We object to that. I would like to see the dictionary, see what the date of the dictionary was.
MR. DANDAR: Do you have it here? In fact, I just realized, unless you want to do this later, there are a bunch of things I marked and didn’t move them into evidence.
THE COURT: I’ll go ahead and let you do that —
MR. DANDAR: Later?
THE COURT: — later. But don’t forget.
MR. DANDAR: Right. Yes.
MR. WEINBERG: Should I start over?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Mr. Prince, David Miscavige busted you from your
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position — your executive position of authority in the RTC in March of 1987, didn’t he?
A Correct.
Q And at that time you were removed from your post, the last executive post you ever held in the Church of Scientology. Correct?
A Correct.
Q And that post, you said, was deputy inspector general external. Right?
A Right.
Q Now, you were removed because you had supported Pat Broeker and Annie Broeker and Vicki Aznaran in their effort to change Scientology tech. Correct?
A That is categorically false.
Q That was precisely what occurred, that Pat Broeker, who had designated himself the loyal officer, was in the process of changing, among other things, the Scientology grade chart, right? That is what he was doing?
A That is categorically false.
Q So Mr. Broeker wasn’t doing that?
A Correct.
Q And you never acknowledged that Mr. Broeker did that?
A Correct.
Q So Mr. Broeker wasn’t off on his own, trying to
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change the religion of Scientology, after Mr. Hubbard died?
A Well —
Q Yes? Or no?
A Excuse me. Let me answer the question.
THE COURT: Well, I’ll tell you how this works on cross-examination. Go ahead and answer the question, but if you feel you have to explain your answer, you are allowed to do that after you have answered it.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I’m sorry.
A Ask me the question again.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Wasn’t Mr. Broeker caught in — in an attempt to change Scientology tech?
A I have no percipient knowledge of that.
Q You have no percipient knowledge of that?
A In other words, I was not there — let me — I was not there. I didn’t see him changing anything. And, again, I was going to say, I have heard some hearsay about it. Since you vehemently object about it, I won’t comment about it, but I — you know, I haven’t personally been with Mr. Broeker when he’s altering Scientology technology.
Q When you were in the RTC prior to March of 1987, in that year after Mr. Hubbard died, you became aware of the
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fact that some point in time that Mr. Broeker was changing and altering Scientology tech, weren’t you?
A Incorrect.
Q You became aware of the fact that Vicki Aznaran was part of an effort to change Scientology tech, weren’t you?
A Absolutely incorrect.
Q And what happened in March of 1987 is that Mr. Broeker was removed from all authority. Correct?
A Mr. Broeker was removed from authority.
THE COURT: Wasn’t? Or was?
THE WITNESS: He was, your Honor.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Annie Broeker, his wife, was removed from all positions of authority. Correct?
A To my knowledge, that is correct.
Q Your boss, Vicki Aznaran, was removed from her position of authority. Correct?
A Correct.
Q And you were removed?
A Correct.
Q And you were at that time — at that point in time, you went from what you described as an executive position with some authority in the — in RTC. Right?
A Correct.
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Q To no authority whatsoever?
A No. That is incorrect.
Q From — for the next five years after March of 1987, did you ever hold a position where someone was junior to you? You know what I mean by that?
A Yes, I do. And, yes, I have.
Q I mean, you were, what, a machine operator after that?
A Mmm, no. I worked on post-production, pre-production and post-production for films.
Q That was one of the things you did, and you were a Cinemix, was that your job?
A No.
Q What was your job?
A My job was like an assistant engineer, assistant sound mixer. Again, I state I worked for post-production and pre-production for films and videos.
Q During that period of time you were in the RPF a couple of times. Correct?
A Incorrect.
Q How many times were you in the RPF?
A I was in the RPF two times, but not that period of time.
Q You were in the RPF in March of 1987. Correct?
A Correct.
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Q All right. Until what, the end of 1987?
A Mmm, I think it was — I wasn’t in there a very long time. I think maybe four months.
Q By the way, there is no higher crime in Scientology than changing the tech. Correct?
A That is incorrect.
Q Well, what would be a higher crime than changing Mr. Hubbard’s scriptures?
A Placing Scientology and Scientologists at risk.
Q One of the highest crimes in Scientology is to alter the tech. Correct?
A It is a high crime to do that. Yes.
Q Now, for the next — for those five years after you were busted — and that was the day you claimed, by the way, that you pulled these guns on David Miscavige and threatened to kill him?
A You didn’t mention a specific day. What day are you talking about?
Q Well, what day are you talking about when you were busted?
THE COURT: Without worrying too much about the date, the date you testified about when you were rousted from bed or got out of bed and went and got the guns, that is on the same day, right?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I’m sorry.
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THE COURT: That is the day you were busted?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: That is what he was referring to.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I’m sorry. I just didn’t understand the question.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q That is the same day you claim you pulled these guns on David Miscavige and you threatened to kill him.
Correct?
A I didn’t threaten to kill Mr. Miscavige. What — maybe you have a wrong idea about what happened there.
I came there to defend myself. Twelve people were attacking me, were trying to hold me. Because I do know karate and have a black belt in it, I was able to get them away from me until I went and got protection for myself.
Q So then these twelve people that were attacking you let you go back to your room, get these two loaded guns?
A They didn’t know where I was going.
Q That didn’t really happen, did it, Mr. Prince?
A Yes, it did.
Q You didn’t pull guns on David Miscavige.
A Yes, it did.
Q So this is the person you say you could still be friendly with?
A You know, Mmm — yes. And I need to explain
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something here because, you know, Mr. Weinberg, you and I have been around and around on this in front of Judge Moody. So, you know, you are giving me the exact same questions and I’ll sit here and be patient with you, but I think the record reflects we have done this one or two times before.
THE COURT: See, I haven’t heard it. This is my hearing, so we’ll do it again.
MR. DANDAR: Explain yourself.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So you contend that you really did go back to your room, get two loaded weapons, and walk back and enter a room and point them directly at David Miscavige?
A No, I never walked back into a room. By that time —
Q You ran back into the room?
A Would you like me to explain it? I —
Q Explain it.
MR. DANDAR: Wait. Wait. Objection.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did you —
MR. DANDAR: He needs to explain it.
Mr. Weinberg —
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll withdraw that question.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did you point two loaded guns —
MR. DANDAR: That is not fair.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q — at David Miscavige?
A No, I did not.
Q Who did you point them at?
A I had the one gun on my hip and the .45 in my hand. And they stood this way. The assault rifle never was pointed at anyone. It was just on my hip like this. And I had the .45.
And Mr. Miscavige, when he saw me, walked directly up to me with those guns in my hand and said, “Jesse, we are friends. Let’s talk.”
So I don’t think he felt that threatened. And I think that Judge Moody pointed that out to you the last time we were doing this.
Q I mean, no one would feel threatened when they had just busted somebody from position and the person got so mad to go back to the room and get two loaded guns and walk into a room. You can’t imagine anybody would be threatened by that, would they?
A I think that is a mischaracterization of what happened.
Q Well, my question is was there a particular reason
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why you never told that story until — until you started getting paid to be a witness in the FACTNet case in 19 — whatever it is, 1998?
Why you waited all those years to tell that story?
A Mmm, I don’t know how to answer that question, Mr. Weinberg. You are associating things that don’t associate. You are associating with me being paid telling stories. And there is no association there.
Q Well, is there a particular reason, in the years after this alleged incident took place, that took you until 1998 to first tell this story about pulling guns on David Miscavige?
MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. It makes no sense. Telling stories where? Under oath? In a deposition? To his friends?
THE COURT: I don’t, either, because I don’t know whether you are talking about the first time he ever testified about that, and if that is the first case he was ever involved in, that is the first time he ever testified about that.
MR. WEINBERG: I —
THE COURT: I’ll tell you one thing —
MR. WEINBERG: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to —
THE COURT: — don’t get ahead of me because you want to go at this witness.
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MR. WEINBERG: You are right.
THE COURT: I won’t have it.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
THE COURT: I won’t have you really cutting this man off. I mean, I know you want to get where you want to go. But you’ll have to go slow.
And, Mr. Prince, whatever you told Judge Moody, I haven’t heard it, I haven’t seen too much of the transcript before Judge Moody, so I don’t want to hear what I — I already told Judge Moody this, I am not Judge Moody.
THE WITNESS: I understand.
THE COURT: If he asks you a question, unless I tell him, “You can’t ask that question,” just answer, even if you have already answered it before.
Okay?
THE WITNESS: Okay. Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Let’s go.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You were interviewed by Earle Cooley while still in the Church in 1988, weren’t you, in relation to another lawsuit?
A I would have to see something about that. I’m not sure what you are talking about.
Q You didn’t say anything about the guns to him, did
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you?
A Again, I would have to see what you’re talking about.
Q Well, you mention the 1994 interview with Mr. Cooley. You didn’t say anything about the guns to him in that interview, did you?
A I mean, you know, you are mixing apples and oranges. I mean, I don’t understand what you are asking me. I mean, I have told that story long before 1998 to my friends, my family, people that I know. I mean, you know, it isn’t like here is some money, let’s tell this story. I beg to differ with the way you are characterizing what happened here.
Q The reason you told the story to Mr. Minton in April of this year was to threaten him as to what you would do as to what kind of person you were? I mean, what did you tell him about it for?
A I told him that story, as I gave testimony yesterday, to show that Scientology, more than likely, will never keep or honor an agreement with anyone. It wasn’t to say I’m going to run and shoot you with guns. It was to give him an example to show him that Scientology will never honor an agreement.
Q Now, you would agree that the positions that you held after you were busted were extremely low positions in
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the Church of Scientology?
A I would beg to differ on that, as well.
Q Now, you were — you were so humiliated, apparently, by Mr. — what you claim Mr. Miscavige did in March of 1987 that you pulled these guns on him. That is what it was about, wasn’t it?
A Absolutely not. And even as we have been sitting here, I think I made it clear to you why I went and got those guns. It wasn’t humiliation. It was being attacked.
Q You were —
A Physically attacked.
Q You resented the fact that you had been busted?
A I resented the fact I was being physically attacked by people that used to be my friends.
Q No. My question is did you resent the fact that you had been busted from your executive position in RTC?
A And I’ll answer the question it isn’t so much that I resented the fact that —
THE COURT: Come on, Mr. Prince, of course you must have been annoyed. I don’t know why we’re playing a semantics game. Anybody would be annoyed if they were busted from the position they thought —
THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, that isn’t right.
I think that deserves clarification because I was
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pretty much tired of that activity that I had been involved in, in Scientology. I was ready for a change. I was ready to be done with that position because that — that position responsibility entailed being involved in criminal activity.
This is something that I had not experienced in Scientology prior to going to Gilman, Hot Springs and working at that level. To me, Scientology was something different than what I was doing.
So, no, it wasn’t a big deal for me, you know. I was already wanting to be away from that responsibility.
But what was a big problem for me was twelve people grabbing me, because I had an earlier incident of that happening in Scientology where six people grabbed me and locked me in a room for three months, and I ended up staying 16 years. So that had precedent over that position I was being removed from.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So you were relieved by the fact you were busted from your position?
A Yes. I was somewhat relieved by it.
Q Now, you — you, Jesse Prince, dislike vehemently David Miscavige, don’t you?
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A I would not say that that is true. I have no vehement dislike for him. I dislike the things that he does. But I don’t envy his position. He’s the leader of a religion. He has a lot of responsibility. That doesn’t give you license to be a criminal, though.
Q You spent the last four years, ever since you met apparently sometime in the summer of 1998, started getting paid by, ever since you met Mr. Minton, you spent the last four years trying to destroy David Miscavige, haven’t you?
A That is incorrect.
Q You have picketed where you have spoken vilely and obscenely about Mr. Miscavige, haven’t you?
A Yes, I have.
Q You have picketed various Churches of Scientology around the country and even in the world, correct?
A That is incorrect. I never picketed an organization outside of the United States.
Q Just in this country?
A Correct.
Q You have threatened David Miscavige in these pickets, haven’t you?
A I need you to clarify what you mean by threatened for me, please.
Q Threatened to do harm to him.
A I have jokingly alluded to it, yes, I have.
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Q You thought it was funny?
A Yes, I did.
Q And did you think it was funny when you were outside the various Churches of Scientology, including what you call the mecca of Scientology, holding signs and shouting obscenities about the leader? You thought that was funny, too?
A I — I think you would have to show me or present evidence that I was holding a sign, shouting obscenities.
Q Oh, we will, Mr. Prince.
A Okay. I would like to see that.
Q Did you think that was funny?
A I would like to see the evidence, please, sir.
Q Would you consider, sir — I mean, I think you said that Mr. Minton was the — something basically the most harassed person you’d ever seen, something to that order?
A Something along that order, correct.
Q Would you consider what you and Mr. Minton and Ms. Greenway and Mr. Alexander and Mr. Oliver and the other folks at the LMT — would you consider what you were doing harassing Scientology?
A Well, what were we doing that was supposed to be harassing?
Q I mean —
THE COURT: His question to you is whatever it
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was you were doing, would that be, in your mind, harassing Scientology?
THE WITNESS: Well, I guess to clarify it, if it meant picketing, does that mean harassing Scientology? It has a broader meaning to me. It means I’m exercising my First Amendment rights as a citizen to protest.
Mmm, if you want to call that harassing Scientology, I call it exercising my freedom.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I’m asking you, because remember you talked about the harassment time line of Mr. Minton?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember talking about that?
A Yes.
Q And my question to you, if — if we put all of your pickets and all Mr. Minton’s pickets and all your postings and all Mr. Minton’s postings and all of the postings of these folks that have been in and out of the LMT and all the pickets of them on a time line, do you think that time line might be somewhat larger than this Minton harassment time line?
A I think it would be minuscule and it would pale by comparison.
Q By the way, are you part of an anti-Scientology
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movement?
A I have never been part of an anti-Scientology movement.
Q Are you an anti-Scientologist?
A No, I am not.
Q What do you consider yourself?
A I consider myself in the instant case where I’m sitting right here today an expert witness concerning Scientology.
Prior to that, I worked in an establishment whereby I helped people who had been victimized by Scientology.
Q And would you consider Mr. Minton to be an anti-Scientologist during those four years that you were part of the A team, I think you said?
A I consider Mr. Minton to be an activist.
Q An activist?
A Yes.
Q What is that?
A You tell me what it is. Do you need to know what the word means? I mean, he was an —
Q What do you mean —
A — activist concerning —
Q What do you mean when you say he was an activist?
A He was an activist ensuring the rights, basic
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human rights, that are accorded to us through our constitution.
I think Mr. Minton got started on his relationship with Scientology when he found out a Scientologist was trying to remove the name “Scientology” from a newsgroup — or at least this is the way he explained it to me. And how
lawyers and raids and things would come to even discuss Scientology, which is how I knew it from being in Scientology.I knew if you ever spoke about Scientology outside of Scientology, you would get clobbered. So to actually see people doing it openly on the Internet was —
THE COURT: That is well past the answer. You don’t have to — we have to try to get through this.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: He simply asked you to define what an activist was. And I think you have done that.
THE WITNESS: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, when did you begin — when did you begin your work against Scientology? What date or time?
A Mmm, I began to give testimony concerning Scientology, to the best of my recollection, in the FACTNet case.
Q Specifically, up until I — I think you said you
626
considered yourself a Scientologist until, I think you said, 1997. Correct? Isn’t that what you said in your testimony?
A I think maybe ’96, I said.
Q All right. So you considered yourself a Scientologist after you left the Church of Scientology in 1992, after you say that you were — you said all those horrible things happened to you in the five-year period, you still considered yourself a Scientologist in ’93, ’94, ’95 and ’96. Correct?
A I think I should clarify that for you, if that is okay. I think that I still had Scientology values. I think that I still respected some of the tenets of Scientology, and I freely associated with Scientologists.
Q Well, you were working for a public member of Scientology for several years, right?
A Several years is incorrect.
Q How many years?
A Maybe one.
Q This is the job that the Church had helped you get after you left the Church where you were making $60,000 or $70,000 a year. Was that your testimony?
A I think you are mis-characterizing what happened. No, that is not my testimony. The Church didn’t help me do anything. It never has.
Q Well, just tell us one of those Scientology values
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that you — that you continue to accept and feel close to after you left the Church of Scientology.
A That man — man is a spiritual entity. That — Mmm — man is capable of seemingly — seemingly more capable than is realized and those potentials can be cultivated and used and expanded on.
Q Any other ones?
A You know, some of the organical principles about the importance of organization, the importance of schedules. You know, these kind of things.
Q When you were a Scientologist, you believed, did you not, that psychiatric problems were spiritual in nature. Correct? That is what you believed? And could be dealt with spiritually through the religion of Scientology. You believed that when you were a Scientologist, didn’t you?
A Yes, I did.
Q And that is what Scientologists believe, don’t they?
A I can’t speak for all Scientologists. I know that, you know, as you are trained in Scientology, you accept more and more of what you read, and it’s a progression, it is a degradation of belief system, I guess.
But I couldn’t say that everyone believes that.
Q Well, you could say that Scientologists — no Scientologist would want to be committed to a mental
628
institution. You can say that, can’t you, from your years as a Scientologist?
A Mr. Weinberg, I can say that about Scientologists and anyone else. There is no one that I know that is aching to be committed to an institution.
Q But I’m asking you from when you were a Scientologist —
A Uh-huh?
Q — the last thing that you would have — you would have rather shot yourself than be committed to a mental institution?
A Absolutely not. I mean, that is unreasonable. It is irrational.
Q Well, can you think of anything worse, as a Scientologist, than to be committed to a mental institution?
Can you just answer that question?
A Rehabilitation Project Force, maybe.
Q One of the fundamental principles of the Church is — is the Church’s abhorrence with psychiatry and mental health treatment. Correct?
A Well, you know, Mr. Weinberg —
Q Can you just answer that question?
A I used to believe that is the answer. I used to believe that. But I found, from Mr. Hubbard’s autopsy report that I had a copy of, that he himself was taking
629
psychiatric medication —
MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike.
A — in his life. So maybe —
THE COURT: Stop. There is an objection. You have to stop.
MR. WEINBERG: It is not responsive to the question. It was a very simple question. Yes or no.
MR. DANDAR: I would say this is outside of the scope of direct and the issues.
THE COURT: It is not outside the scope of direct and not outside the scope of the issues but, quite frankly, this is not helping me any.
MR. WEINBERG: All right.
THE COURT: It is an interesting banter between you and Mr. Prince and —
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll go on.
THE COURT: — this might be of interest to a jury, but it really isn’t of interest —
MR. WEINBERG: All right.
THE COURT: — to me.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Since you have met Bob Minton, all of the money that you have received since June, other than this apparently $4,000 that you just got from Mr. Dandar, that
630
you have received since June, July, of 1998, up until April of 2002, came directly or indirectly from Mr. Minton, didn’t it?
A That is incorrect.
Q And all of the money — all of the money that you have received in that period of time you received as a result of your work about or against or involving Scientology?
A That is incorrect.
Q Correct?
A That is incorrect.
Q What is incorrect about that statement?
A I think that — Mmm — that all of the money that I have had during those periods of time derived from those activities, that is — specifically is incorrect about it.
Q What, 99 percent of it? 95 percent of it?
A You know, I have turned over my financial records to you. I think they speak for themselves.
Q All right. Let me play you — because you asked me to — let me play you a video — some videos and maybe this will refresh your recollection. I’ll ask you some questions about it.
A All right.
MR. WEINBERG: Get the first one.
MR. DANDAR: We’re going to object. If he
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plays the video that they would like to play from the Boston picket, I demand that they play the whole video so that you, Judge, can see what Mr. Prince was responding to in that very vile video that you may have already seen.
You only saw their version of it. There is like two, three, four minutes of extremely vile language coming from ministers of the Church of Scientology to bull bait Mr. Prince into responding the way he did on video. So if they are
going to do that, they need to play the whole thing.MR. WEINBERG: That is not the one I’m playing, first of all —
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: — to make it easy. Secondly, if he wants to do something later, he can.
THE COURT: There is a rule of completeness which we’ll get into when we get to trial. At a trial, if somebody will try to pick and choose, I’m probably going to insist on the rule of completeness in an appropriate case.
But in this hearing, if they play something and you think I need to see it all, make a little note, tell them to keep it there and play the whole thing on redirect.
632
MR. DANDAR: All right.
THE COURT: Or ask them if they’ll play it all.
If they say no, then you play it.
MR. DANDAR: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: Now, this is a video in front of the Ft. Harrison on November 30, 1998.
______________________________________
(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“You want to see the other side of the sign, too? Just want to make sure you get all of the information, all of the data.
“Tell David I’m coming with a dick so big, I’m gonna knock his goddamn spine out cuz I’m black. I got a big dick. I’m black. I got a big dick.
“Hey. Hey. Didn’t that guy have curly hair? (Inaudible.)
“No. No. Jesse. Yo momma. I been fucking your momma a long time (inaudible). That’s why you got that curly hair.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you recognize yourself, Mr.~Prince?
A Yes, I do.
Q You recognize Mr. Minton?
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A Yes, I do.
Q And you thought that was funny? Your statement about Mr. Miscavige?
A Yes, I did.
Q You don’t consider that a threat?
A No, I don’t.
Q You think it is appropriate for an expert, or anybody, for that matter, but particularly an expert on — supposedly on religion to be in front of the Ft. Harrison to be making obscene statements about David Miscavige like that to other — to Scientologists?
A You know, I think there was an indiscretion that happened there, certainly.
Q And you consider it harassment for you and Mr. Prince — and Mr. Minton and others to be holding signs like the one you were holding, “Lisa, blood on her hands,”and the one Mr. Minton was holding about the Third Reich, do you consider that harassment to be walking in front of the mecca of Scientology? Do you consider that to be harassment?
A I consider it to be exercising my constitutional right —
Q Okay.
A — as a citizen of America.
MR. WEINBERG: Want to play the next one,
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please? Actually, let me — go ahead.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played. No audio available.)
MR. WEINBERG: This is on the same day in front of the Criminal Court Complex.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, do you remember this being the day of the arraignment in the criminal case and do you remember being in front of the complex with Stacy Brooks, Bob Minton, Ken Dandar, Dr. Garko and yourself? Do you remember that photo?
A I remember that photo.
Q And do you recognize that as the criminal complex in Clearwater?
A The one on 49th Street?
Q Yes.
A Yes, I do.
Q And who took that photo?
A You know, I’m not sure.
Q And do you think that is funny? “Scientology, Hubbard Third Reich,” do you think that is funny?
A You know, I think those people in that picture are exercising their constitutional rights.
Q Do you think it is appropriate for the trial team of Mr. Dandar, Dr. Garko and you and Ms. Brooks, along with
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Mr. Minton, to be standing in front of a public building holding signs like that?
MR. DANDAR: Objection.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you think that is appropriate?
MR. DANDAR: Objection. Mr. Minton is not part of any trial team.
THE COURT: He said “and Mr. Minton.” So I’m assuming he was excluding him.
MR. WEINBERG: That is what I did.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you consider that to be appropriate behavior?
A I consider that unless I’m committing a crime, I’m exercising my constitutional rights as an American citizen.
Q Do you believe that that constitutes harassment of the Church of Scientology?
A No, I don’t. I think if I was doing anything illegal, Scientology would have had me arrested on the spot.
Q Okay.
THE COURT: Harassment is not illegal. I guess what he’s trying to ask you is, in addition to exercising your First Amendment rights, did you consider that that might be considered harassment?
THE WITNESS: You know, and I — my answer again is no. My answer is I’m exercising my
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constitutional rights as an American citizen.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You wouldn’t consider that picket —
MR. WEINBERG: Can you put that photo back up?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Somebody asked you — I think Mr. Dandar asked you whether or not he was ever on a picket.
THE COURT: Now, Counselor, in all fairness, that is a picture, that is not a picket. What we saw before —
MR. WEINBERG: I understand. I was asking to ask him. This is a picture.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q My question is what was going on with these signs in front of the Clearwater courthouse? What were you-all doing with these signs?
A I think we had been picketing earlier.
THE COURT: Was Mr. Dandar with you when you were picketing?
THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. Neither was Mr. Garko.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And whose idea was it to pose for this picture?
A I don’t know. I don’t recall. I don’t remember.
Q I mean, no one forced you-all to do this.
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Correct?
A Correct.
MR. WEINBERG: Go to the next one, please.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“You work for a criminal organization. And they’re going to be found out. You take that and put it on the camera and run it to Miscavige, your leader, your guru. He’s going down.”
(End of playing of video tape.)
______________________________________
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, that was right outside the Clearwater Bank building where all the people go in to eat. Correct?
A Yes. It was.
Q And right down the street, as you look down the street, is where the LMT offices were?
A That is correct.
Q All right. And do you consider that to be a threat to Mr. Miscavige where you say he’s going down?
A No, I do not. And I think I have to — you know, because this is just a little snippet you are showing here, I think I should give the situation that was occurring.
On that very street that you saw me in front of where the Lisa McPherson Trust is around the corner, on that
638
particular day I had gone to a shop on Cleveland to buy a pack of cigarettes and go back to the office.
From the moment I walked out of my office, all of the way up to the door of the shop I went to and all of the way back, a Scientology OSA person had a camera on me like this (indicating).
I was annoyed. If that is a crime, find me guilty.
Q Now, was that your purpose when you say, “You’re going down,” was your purpose to get rid of Mr. Miscavige from being the chairman of the board or the ecclesiastical leader of Scientology?
A My purpose was to express my annoyance.
Q And “guru,” were you just being funny?
A Again, my purpose was to express my annoyance.
Q Now, was that your agenda? Strike that.
Was it Mr. Minton’s agenda — was part of his agenda to get rid of David Miscavige?
A You had Mr. Minton up here —
Q I’m just asking you.
A — Mr. Weinberg, forever, you know.
Q I’m asking you.
A He never said that to me. He never said that to me.
THE COURT: There is an answer in the
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courtroom. It is called “I don’t know.” If it is —
A He never — no, he never said that to me.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you described you, Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton as the A team, right?
A Correct.
Q And the A team got formed in the summer of 1998?
A I would say — Mmm — thereabouts.
Q Right. And the A team continued to be —
A Maybe — wait a minute. I misspoke about that because that A team business didn’t come up until after — after we’d worked together for a while and had done things.
And that concept came out — in the summer of ’98 is when I first met them, so I think it would be a misrepresentation to say that the A team was in the summer of ’98, at least to my best recollection as I sit here today.
Q So when was it?
A And I can’t be sure. It was sometime later.
Q When you said it became the A team after you had done things, what kind of things? Are you talking about like — do you mean like pickets and sending postings and things like that? Are those the things that you were doing?
A I think more like helping people directly.
Q Helping people?
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A Yes.
Q How was Mr. Minton helping people, by standing and holding signs like that?
A Well, you know, I guess there is a myriad of answers for that. But what I meant to say, helping people, I meant helping people that had run into problems with Scientology and were not able to resolve them so that they can get on with their lives.
Q Now, where did the A team concept come from?
A You know, I think there used to be a television program.
Q Are you talking about the one with Mr. T?
A If you let me finish. You know, the reason why I can’t answer that question, because when those television series were going on, I was in the Sea Org and we weren’t allowed to watch TV. So I have a big missing section in my life with serial programs and things like that.
So again I’ll say there was some program that had the A team on it. And I think Mr. Minton brought it up and — but —
Q And —
A — but I have never seen a program called the A team or anything like that.
Q When you said the A team yesterday, what did you mean, A team? What was it that the A team was doing?
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A The A team was myself, Bob and Stacy. And the A team were helping people that needed help to resolve issues with Scientology.
You know, just to — to show how far at the other end of the spectrums were, Mr. Minton actually thought he was helping Scientology by helping these people resolve issues with Scientology.
Q Do you remember speaking to the media about bringing Mr. Miscavige down?
A No. I do not.
MR. WEINBERG: Play that next one, please.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“It takes standing up and recognizing it for what it is, a dead, arcane idea. We’re dealing with people who are ignorant and we’re going to bring them down.”
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you remember that?
A I object to that very — I can’t object, but that was an obvious edit where you sliced two things together.
And I think you are mis-characterizing a speech that I gave for a vigil for Lisa McPherson where the press was there. I was not speaking for the press. I was speaking to former Scientologists.
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Q Were you talking about bringing down Scientology?
Is that what you were talking about?
MR. DANDAR: We object and ask the whole thing be played.
THE COURT: I think that is fair.
MR. WEINBERG: It was a newscast, we didn’t — we can play the whole newscast. It takes a minute.
THE COURT: I don’t want the whole newscast.
Just whatever Mr. Prince said.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, that is what Mr. Prince said. That is all he said is what we just played.
THE COURT: Well, it did look like there was a definite splice.
MR. WEINBERG: There was. One of these newscasts where the reporter said something and Stacy Brooks said something and he said the first thing on there, Mr. Prince, then somebody else said something, then he said the last thing.
We took the two things Mr. Prince said and put it together. But we can play the whole section.
THE COURT: It makes it look like he said all that together, and it may not have been.
I think if what it is you are trying to do is every time he said we’re going to bring him down, what is it you mean when you say that?
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THE WITNESS: Expose — expose what is actually going on.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: You know, expose the fact that private investigators are being used to terrorize citizens because they disagree with Scientology.
Expose the fact that someone gave $100,000, and it is Scientology’s policy, if you don’t use a service that you paid for, they will refund it to you.
THE COURT: Normally, when you want to say we’re going to expose somebody, you don’t say expose somebody, you say bring them down, that kind of means put them out of business. That is what I mean by that. What did you mean by it?
THE WITNESS: I mean ending the criminal activity. Ending the assault of citizens who have no way to protect themselves once they get on the bad side of Scientology.
THE COURT: When you say “We are going to bring you down,” this is your testimony, you did not mean put the Church of Scientology out of business, do away with the Church?
THE WITNESS: Right, in the illegal activities. I never had a — as I said, corrupt activities wasn’t even anything in my mind during the majority
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of my stay in Scientology. These are things that I learned about after I got to Gilman, Hot Springs, and started working directly for Mr. Hubbard and Mr. Miscavige. I was an ignorant, blind person to it prior to that time.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q When you said in that newscast that I just played, quote, “It takes standing up and recognizing it for what it is, a dead, arcane idea,” that was how you — that — you were expressing your opinion about Scientology, that is what
you meant by that, isn’t it?A No. You have taken this out of context because I don’t know what “It is.” You showed me a little snippet. I don’t know what you’re talking about.
THE COURT: I don’t, either.
MR. WEINBERG: I have the transcript. We’ll play the whole tape because we are obviously not going to get done today.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q But — it was a response to a question, “Today they spoke out against the Church of Scientology,” and then they play what you said about it. But we’ll play the whole thing. It takes about a minute. All right.
You remember going on several trips to Europe with Mr. Minton, correct?
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A I think I went on a couple of trips with Mr. Minton.
Q All right. He paid for the trips?
A Correct.
Q Who else went with you?
A You know, as a matter of fact, I only traveled to Europe with Mr. Minton one time.
Q And the purpose of that trip was?
A To visit with his business partner, Jeff Schmidt, to have a face-to-face with him to find out specifically what Scientology-hired private investigator David Lee was doing to try to get him to a — do a similar thing as Bob and Stacy, basically turn against Bob and provide criminal information so Scientology could use it to attack Bob Minton.
Q Now, do you remember being in Germany with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks in or about June of 2000?
A I think I was in Leipzig, Germany.
Q And Mr. Minton paid for that trip?
A I think that trip was paid by the Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q So in June of 2000 you were on the payroll of the Lisa McPherson Trust at that point?
A Correct.
Q You had just gone on the payroll?
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A You know, I can’t remember.
Q And do you remember — you remember being in the DB lounge?
THE COURT: What is that?
A Yes.
THE COURT: What is a DB lounge?
MR. WEINBERG: It is a bar of some sort.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Correct?
A We were at a train station in Leipzig, and there was a bar called the DB Bar, which we thought was amusing because DB means something very specific in Scientology, it means degraded being.
Q And you were there with Ms. Caberta, we heard about, the German government official that works against Scientology, right?
A Correct.
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll play this clip here. This is something turned over to us by the Lisa McPherson Trust.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Okay, so — so, Stacy, you start. DM, this drink’s for you.
“DM, this is a special toast to you coming
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straight from the DB Lounge in Leipzig, Germany.
“I’m not going to call this guy DM anymore. Remember what my new name for David Miscavige is, the former ecclesiastical leader of the Church of Scientology.
“I know this is going on camera.
“I know, but what did I say — (inaudible).
“Yes — yes, this is — this is a toast to David Miscavige, also known as Pope David I, from the DB lounge in Leipzig, Germany. Up, up, up and away.
“Now, Ursula.
“Hi, Mr. Miscavige. We did a great work here in Germany. And we will finish Scientology soon.
“This is to you, Miscavige. We are so thankful that you give us reason to live. Salute.
“Pope David I. Cheers.
“Cheers.
“Just some DBs hanging out here.
“David I.
(Inaudible.)
“This is to David Miscavige in the DB Lounge in Leipzig, Germany at the train station.
“Pope David I.
“Cheers, Miscavige.
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“Rear Admiral.
(Inaudible.)
“Listen, listen, just —
“No, just stop here now. Now listen.
“We all know in Grady’s deposition, when Grady was deposing David Miscavige, that he went ballistic over the thought of Graham —
“Now —
“– of Graham Berry spending time –”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Does that bring back memories, Mr. Prince?
A Yes.
Q And you think that is funny?
A Well, what I think you have is a home video of our trip in Europe that was never made public — Mmm — to anyone. And we were just having fun. Yes, I do think it was funny. We were just having fun at the train station.
Q Does that man, Mr. Minton, look like the most harassed person on the face of the earth?
A He does, to me.
Q And when Ms. Caberta, the German official who has — who flew over here and who is working against Scientology, when she said, “We’re going to finish
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Scientology,” she was talking about getting rid of it, wasn’t she?
A No. I think she was specifically talking about Scientology isn’t viewed as a religion in Germany.
Scientology is viewed as a political group. The reason Scientology is viewed as a political group —
THE COURT: I don’t need to know that.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: I don’t need to know, care, what is going on in Germany.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q When you talk about the reason for living, when you-all were talking about, you know, David Miscavige gives us a reason to — a reason for living — reason to live for, talking about so that you can malign him, is that what
you-all are talking about?A No. Not at all.
Q And do you remember — it was cut off at the end.
Do you remember that — that at that point, Mr. — Mr. Minton said something very obscene about Mr. Miscavige?
A I do not remember that. But, again, I’ll state that this was a video that we made on our trip that was a private video, never made public, never put on the Internet, and it is being exploited here today.
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Q Well, it sort of gives you a different impression about what you-all were about, doesn’t it?
A Who is you-all?
Q Excuse me?
A Who are you talking about, you-all? What you-all were about. What are you talking about?
Q You, Ms. Brooks, Mr. Minton?
A The —
Q The A team?
A I didn’t get that impression.
Q Now, who took that video, this home video that ended up in the LMT on this trip that was financed by the LMT?
A I think Mr. Bunker.
Q So he was there, too, obviously? Was anybody else on this trip? You have the A team, you have Mr. Bunker. Is there anybody else on it?
A Not that I specifically recall.
Q And you-all thought the DB was kind of funny because that is a Scientology term?
A Correct.
Q Now, after looking at your obscenities in front of the Ft. Harrison about Mr. Miscavige, watching this toast, you still think that he would be your friend? Wasn’t that your testimony this morning?
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A You know, I’m talking to a camera there. The answer to your question is yes, I think that if he and I sat down and actually had a discussion, we would certainly find friendship, would be able to communicate.
I mean, isn’t Scientology all about helping people learn —
THE COURT: That didn’t really answer the question. You have that opinion and that is fine. Then that is the answer to the question.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You talk about counseling. The principal purpose of the LMT, when it moved into Clearwater, was for the A team and the people that were working for the A team to picket and harass Scientology, wasn’t it?
A That is incorrect beyond belief.
Q Okay. Now —
A I would like to explain that, if I could. I would like to explain why the LMT came here, since you brought it up, and if you would allow me to just fully answer the question.
Q So you were involved in the —
THE COURT: I’m going to let him answer the question. What was the purpose of the LMT that — what do you believe the purpose of the LMT was?
THE WITNESS: The purpose of the LMT —
THE COURT: Fifty words or less.
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THE WITNESS: Okay, fifty words or less, and I won’t talk too fast for the court reporter.
THE COURT: That is 25.
THE WITNESS: When Lisa McPherson left that hotel, she had no place to go. She had a minor accident, stripped off her clothes, told people that she needed help. She ended up back in the Ft. Harrison. Seventeen days later, she was dead.
The reason that Lisa McPherson came to Clearwater and the reason it was there, in case there was another instance where someone needed a safe place to go where they could come and get help.
That is why we were there. And that is the only reason we were there.
And those were the dying wishes of Fannie McPherson, Lisa McPherson’s mother, when she was on her deathbed.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So all of this picketing which happened on a regular basis, correct —
A Incorrect.
Q Well, can you, like, give us an estimate of the number of times you participated in a picket against the Church of Scientology?
A Yes, I can. Let me think. Because I certainly
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remember the first one well enough. I think I have probably been involved in maybe six or seven pickets.
Q So in the —
THE COURT: Over what periods of time, Mr. Prince?
THE WITNESS: From 1998 to the present.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So in a four-year picket —
THE COURT: Four-year period. Not picket.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Right, I have picket on the brain. In the four-year period, you say you only picketed six times?
A I roughly estimated six or seven times that I picketed, yes.
Q And do you have a sense of how many times Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton picketed in that four-year period?
A I do not.
Q A lot more than six?
A I believe so.
THE COURT: He said he didn’t know.
MR. WEINBERG: I believe he just said “I believe so.”
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, in Clearwater there were other people in the
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LMT that participated in pickets, including Peter Alexander, correct?
A Yes.
Q Patricia Greenway?
A Yes.
Q Frank Oliver?
A I — I can’t say that I have ever seen Frank Oliver carrying a sign, picketing.
Q So you are not aware he picketed?
A Correct.
Q Of course Minton — of course, the A team, right?
A You know, I think Stacy herself maybe picketed maybe five or six times, as well. But then she didn’t do it anymore because it was not anything she agreed with, nor did she feel it was effective in handling the problem that we
were dealing with.Q Well, let me ask you this. Do you remember that on September 2, 1998 you and Mr. Minton participated in a picket in Boston at the Boston Airport?
A At the Boston Airport? We — I think you have that in complete reverse. Scientologists picketed us at the airport.
Q Do you have signs, “Scientology, The Third Reich”?
A Do I have signs?
Q Did you-all, you and/or Mr. Minton?
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A Mmm, it’s a possibility. I don’t know.
Q In September of ’98 did you and Mr. Minton picket in front of the Church of Scientology in Boston?
A That is possible.
Q Well, that is when he was actually arrested for assault and battery. Right?
A Correct.
Q In October of 1998 did you picket with Mr. Minton in front of the Church of Scientology in Boston?
A It’s possible.
Q You remember several pickets in Boston in October of ’98 with one of Mr. — one with Mr. Minton and one with Ms. Brooks?
A I don’t remember that specifically, no.
THE COURT: Tell me why we have to spend so much times on these pickets.
MR. WEINBERG: Because, your Honor, it — it — it demonstrates — first of all, it puts the lie to what we’ve heard all of the way through —
THE COURT: But I know that this man has been involved in pickets.
MR. WEINBERG: It is way beyond that, your Honor. I mean, really —
THE COURT: Pardon?
MR. WEINBERG: It is way beyond that. You have
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before you a harassment time line. And Mr. Dandar has spent literally 28 days suggesting that somehow Mr. Minton was harassed to the point where — where, for reasons that don’t make any sense to me, for that purpose he would come in and incriminate himself.
And the fact is — we’re not playing all of the pickets. But when you see these clips, most of which we got from the Lisa McPherson Trust in these videos that were just turned over, you will see what was really — what was happening here in Clearwater.
THE COURT: I have no doubt that at the LMT Trust they had very little use, if any, for the Church of Scientology. And they picketed them fairly regularly. Quite frankly, if they had fallen on their face, they wouldn’t have cared; that they were out, in essence, to undo what they perceived to be the bad things that they perceived the Church of Scientology did. I don’t have any doubt about that.
I think the record is clear. So I don’t know why we keep going over those things.
There are things that are really critical to this hearing. And I don’t think those are it.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean —
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THE COURT: It might be important to the counterclaim, but not to this hearing.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, if you rely on, for example, what Peter Alexander said, he said he didn’t have anything — or essentially nothing to do with it. You’ll see essentially the opposite.
You have heard that somehow Mr. Minton was harassed. And you’re going to see what was really going on, that the Church was harassed beyond comprehension.
THE COURT: I have no doubt Mr. Minton harassed the Church, as well as the Church harassed Mr. Minton. It is just that simple.
MR. WEINBERG: But nothing is more — well, can I proceed with my cross-examination?
THE COURT: Yes. You may.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You went on the Internet, as well, didn’t you?
A I have been on the Internet. Yes, I have.
Q You made postings on the Internet?
A Yes, I have.
Q In that Leipzig toast you — instead of using the name “David Miscavige,” you actually said “Miss Cabbage,” didn’t you? That was a little joke, wasn’t it?
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A Did I say that?
Q I’m asking you.
A I thought I said “Miscavige.”
MR. DANDAR: I think we need to hear the video, rather than someone’s transcript.
MR. WEINBERG: I’m going to show you a posting.
THE COURT: In a posting we have heard him called Rear Admiral. We know what that means. And we know they called him Miss Cabbage. And they don’t speak kindly of David Miscavige.
MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. And I’m going to show him, have him identify, his Internet postings.
A I will admit — I have said that before, Miss Cabbage. I just don’t know that — if that is what you are seeing there.
MR. WEINBERG: Could I stand up here with Mr. Prince?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. WEINBERG: I have no other copies.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea what this is.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q This is your postings, isn’t it?
A Excuse me?
Q This is your postings?
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A I don’t think so. I think it is a fictitious document created —
Q So you didn’t send a posting that said:
“Too bad, Little Miss Cabbage has a corncob up your ass, 724365. I know the feeling. That is why I have him reeling, spending money like a bitch kicked from a pimp. Roll on, ho, big daddy can see you. Jesse.”
A Yes, correct. But that is a fictitious document that was created for the purpose of — to malign me.
Q To malign you?
A Yes.
Q But you have used Miss Cabbage?
A Yes, I’ll admit it. Freely admit it.
MR. DANDAR: Objection. This does not have the normal E-Mail headers on it that you would find if it was an original document, instead of something that someone altered.
A I don’t even know who Robert is.
THE COURT: I don’t know. If he can’t authenticate that, I don’t know whether — I don’t know whether it is in or not. At the top it says
“Spread the word, bitch.”
Then it goes on to some other comments. And that is not the way an E-Mail normally —
MR. WEINBERG: It is not an E-Mail. It’s a
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posting.
THE COURT: Well, the same thing. I don’t know. It would seem like this Jesse Prince, Jesse77@GTE.net would be Mr. Prince’s — that would be — is that what you go by?
THE WITNESS: I had that in 1998, I think, when I had a particular type of computer, I used to have that address. But as I sit here today, I don’t know what name — the name Robert.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Well, when you use the word “Miss Cabbage,” what do you mean?
MR. DANDAR: Objection. That is not his E-Mail.
THE COURT: No, he admitted that he has called David Miscavige Miss Cabbage.
A It’s an obvious derogatory use of Miscavige.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And derogatory in — I mean, in what context did you use it when you used it?
A I don’t remember. I just know that — you know —
I have said that before. I admit to it.
Q Now, let me show you — see if you recognize this posting. Or is this another fictitious one?
MR. WEINBERG: What will this be?
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THE CLERK: 219.
MR. DANDAR: What exhibit number is that?
MR. WEINBERG: 219.
THE COURT: The one before that was 2-what?
MR. WEINBERG: 218.
THE COURT: That did not come in because —
MR. WEINBERG: He said he couldn’t authenticate it.
THE COURT: So that is not in evidence. That is Number 218. This one you just gave us is 219?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Did you make that posting?
A Yes, I did.
Q And do you consider that to be a — a posting that would indicate a derogatory view toward Mr. Miscavige and the religion of Scientology?
A Mmm, I think that this posting is a result of the Scientology operations being run on me.
While I’m trying to testify in a court in front of a judge in Denver, Scientology hired a prostitute, had a deep undercover agent, Laura Terepin, working on me, helping me with the deposition, saying there are people other than
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who they are. You know, this is an annoyance response to what had been happening to me. You see I clearly speak about private investigators following me.
In Denver, very strange things happened.
Q What do you mean, they hired a prostitute?
A A prostitute.
You know, this guy from Denver — there was a private investigative agency in Denver that was watching me. He brought a woman who said it was his sister, who was a whore. She got a room directly across the street from my — not across the street, across the hall from my room in the hotel that I was staying in.
And when I came out — and she was a beautiful woman, you know. “Oh, can you help me get my key,” on and on and start this conversation.
This guy says, “This is my sister. We’re just in town.”
Suitable guise. Mr. Sharp will explain it to you. And they started this whole routine of, “Come on. Party with us tonight. We’ve got drugs, we have this. We’ve got whatever.”
I’m supposed to testify. I literally had to get rid of them.
The other person, Laura Terepin was — her real name wasn’t Laura Terepin.
Jolie Steckart, specifically paid by Scientology
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to infiltrate Mr. Dan Leipold’s office as I sat there writing my declaration for his case.
It was these kind of things that annoyed me, and I would write these things.
Q So when this hooker came to your room, you told her to leave?
A Yes.
Q Or did you —
A We were at the bar. And then she wanted to come to the room. I’m like, “No, I have to testify.”
Q But I think you testified previously that she actually — you let her come to your room and you did something with her. Right?
A No. I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I — I think that you are fabricating that.
Q Now, when you say in the first sentence: “It seems some people (Miscavige) just don’t have the guts to quit when it’s over,” what did you mean by that?
A What I meant specifically by that is that I came into the case — the FACTNet case — Scientology had brought an action against FACTNet for copyright — certain copyright violations.
And — Mmm — I — I remember vividly the whole issue of copyrights in Scientology. I have given a — a detailed affidavit about it.
But the fact of the matter is the copyrights — or
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at least some of them — were completely bogus. And the filings of the copyrights were filed under false premises.
I did an affidavit against that concerning that — concerning that naming specifically the people that were involved. Another officer, staff member, Pat Brice, was involved, because after Mr. Miscavige dismantled the Guardian’s Office, there was always a section in Scientology, according to its own policy, to register trademarks and copyrights all of the time.
Q That is what you meant —
A Excuse me I’m still talking. And they let that lapse a period of time. So you had a large section of materials that they claim copyright protection for which, in fact, they did not have. And I was able to identify what that was.
Q So that is what you meant when you said, “When it’s over, they just don’t have the guts to know when it’s over”?
A Correct. They submit false documents to the Court. I point out to the Court that the documents are false and show them how, is specifically what I mean there.
Q The third paragraph, the last sentence, where you say: “Can’t you just –” talking about Miscavige now, “Can’t you just take it like a man? Soon you’ll be in a place where you’ll be taking it like a man regularly,” that
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is sort of like the Miss Cabbage thing, you’re talking about him being in jail and sexually assaulted?
A I’m talking about him being incarcerated for being involved in criminal activity.
THE COURT: Was this a posting to David Miscavige, or somebody else?
THE WITNESS: No. It was that newsgroup, alt.religion.scientology.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Let me show you another one. You did hundreds of these things?
A I don’t think so.
Q You just felt compelled, as an expert, to go on this alt.religion.scientology and say obscene things about David Miscavige?
A At the time of these writings, I was not operating — I don’t think I was — I don’t know. I don’t remember. I don’t think I was an expert in this — I think I came in here in December of ’99 when —
THE COURT: I mean, there are people that learn things from this case. Mr. Prince, if you are going to ever testify in another case, you ought to learn not to post things on an Internet, especially not to be involved in vulgar demonstrations. They’ll always come back to haunt you in a court proceeding.
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Just like I hope Mr. Dandar learned, whether you call it picket or vigil, if you are a lawyer, you ought not to be there.
There are certain things you need to have learned. I hope you learned that.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, that is a true statement. I have learned that from Judge Moody. He taught me quite a bit about how I needed to act in relationship to this.
And you are right, I have had some indiscretions. All right, if we need to talk about that, we will.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I showed you what I marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 220. Do you see that, Mr. Prince?
A Yes, I do.
Q Do you remember writing that open letter to David Miscavige?
A Uh-huh.
THE COURT: That is a yes?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I’m sorry. Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And — and this is when you are definitely involved as an expert, you already worked on Wollersheim, you already reviewed the PC folders for Mr. Dandar.
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Correct?
A Quite possibly I’ll agree with you there.
Q And so you say in the first paragraph: “How desperate you must feel. If you sit quietly and listen carefully, you will hear it.”
MR. DANDAR: Objection. I need to have the question asked of the witness to identify this document and make sure it is his.
MR. WEINBERG: He just did.
A This is my document. Yes.
MR. DANDAR: It doesn’t have headers on it. That is all.
THE COURT: Well, he has identified it, so —
MR. DANDAR: All right.
A Yes.
THE COURT: You are introducing this?
MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I am.
THE COURT: It will be received.
MR. WEINBERG: And I —
THE COURT: Honestly, I’ll tell you the same thing, I don’t need you to read it to me. If there is some part you want to point to —
MR. WEINBERG: Really, the first paragraph and last paragraph.
THE COURT: Okay.
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A Yes, I wrote — I wrote the first paragraph, all of the paragraphs in the middle, all of the way to the end.
And I think if you read this whole thing, you’ll see that I’m upset, I’m very peeved over the fact on Page 2, second paragraph, that —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q I didn’t ask about Page 2. I asked about the first paragraph. That is all I asked you.
A Oh, okay.
Q And the last paragraph. You wrote that, where you quote the Bible?
A Correct.
Q And the reason for quoting this passage from Revelations about “Avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth” was what?
A Well, you know, if you know this passage, these are the saints that died for righteousness but evil and corruption carries on. And when the fifth seal is opened, biblically speaking, the saints’ blood will be avenged.
This is specifically what I’m talking about. And how this relates to Miscavige and Scientology is the corruption — the agonizing activity that I had to go through to deal with my children, my father, old girlfriends, Scientology did their noisy investigation on me.
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I wish I would have had this document when Mr. Dandar was asking me do you remember noisy investigations. They ran around to my entire family. I had to go to Chicago, I had to go to Minneapolis, to Memphis, Tennessee, to deal with friends and associates and family as a result of Scientology doing their, quote/unquote, noisy investigation, spreading lies and false information about me.
THE COURT: Are you done with Number 220? We need to take our break.
MR. WEINBERG: We offer 220. And I do also offer 219, the one before that.
THE COURT: That will be received, too. And we’ll go ahead and take our afternoon break. It is 25 after. A 20-minute break.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
(WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 3:25 to 3:50.)
______________________________________THE COURT: You may continue.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. At the break I had one more of these things I was going to mark. I’ll go on. That is 221.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, Mr. Prince, do you recognize Defense Exhibit 221 as a posting which you made on or about August 6 of
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1998?
A If you’ll give me just one minute —
Q Sure.
A — to review this document, please, I’ll indicate it for you.Okay, yes. I do remember this document.
MR. WEINBERG: All right. I’ll offer this, your Honor. I have a couple questions to ask on it.
THE COURT: All right. It will be received.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, this is one of the first postings you made after you had joined the ranks of working against Scientology, correct?
A I would hardly characterize it as that. But this is one of the first postings that I made on the Internet concerning Scientology. Yes.
Q All right. Now, in that first paragraph you say, second sentence: “You know, I just can’t refer to Scientology as a church in any way. It would be an insult to all religions.” Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q And that is how you feel today, isn’t it?
A You know, it is not. And I can explain to you why.
Q You don’t need to.
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A Okay. Then I have answered the question.
Q So you think it’s a church?
A Correct.
Q So you just sent this out of some hatred?
MR. DANDAR: Objection. He didn’t want him to explain it. Now he’s asking him. So let the man explain his answer.
THE COURT: Well, I think that was a different question. And I think that Mr. Prince is capable of answering that question, then I think he can explain it.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You sent this out of some hatred for Scientology?
A Mmm, no, sir.
Q Now, if you go to the fourth paragraph where it says, I quote:
“The bottom line is that the hierarchy of Scientology is composed of people who are very, very, very mentally ill, sick people of the worst sort. Why? Because they are sick and don’t know it. In all honesty, I hope to reach them so they can wake up and start getting well like I have and others have.”
You wrote that, right?
A Correct.
Q Wasn’t that what you have, in essence, been doing for the last four years, trying to get rid of the hierarchy
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of Scientology, including David Miscavige?
A You know, that is not exactly what I say here, to get rid of those people. I said I hope that I could reach them so that they can wake up and start getting well themselves.
Q Now, you — the truth is, isn’t it, Mr. Prince, that you and Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, the A team, had a ball with regard to all this picketing you-all participate in over the last four years?
A I’m sorry, I hardly can agree to that, Mr. Weinberg. I wouldn’t call it a ball.
Q You had a lot of fun doing it, wouldn’t you say?
A I wouldn’t say that either, Mr. Weinberg.
Q You remember the first time that you went to New Hampshire and — and — and encountered picketing in New Hampshire?
A Yes, when Scientologists came in and picketed Mr. Minton’s home.
Q Right. And that was on Mr. Minton’s — that was on Ms. Brooks’ harassment time line. Right?
A It very well could have been. Sure.
Q And do you remember that you were there with Mr. Minton and that you-all were laughing and giggling and making fun of the Scientologists, the few that came by in the cars? You called it a drive-by —
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A The picketers, yes, it was amusing because the Scientologists came by and stood in the road with their signs, and it is quite a narrow road up in New Hampshire, there aren’t sidewalks where Mr. Minton lives. So a state trooper came and asked them not to stand in the road because it was dangerous. It was actually kind of a blind curve by Mr. Minton’s house that makes it dangerous, being there are no sidewalks.
And what was particularly amusing about what the Scientologists resorted to at that point is that they — Mmm — went around and pulled their cars way back, then took their picket signs out the window, because they were too big to stick through the window, and they held them outside of the car and drove back and forth. I thought that was pretty pathetic.
Q And you and Mr. Minton had anti-Scientology signs, correct?
A Mr. Minton had signs.
Q You did, too?
A No. I never owned a picket sign myself.
Q You never held a picket sign?
A I never owned —
Q I didn’t ask you whether you owned it.
A I’m sorry.
Q You had a sign. There were signs there that you
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and Mr. Minton had, correct? Anti-Scientology signs?
A That may or may not be correct. I don’t specifically recall.
Q All right. Do you remember doing a posting with regard to that incident that appears on the harassment time line?
A I do. But — but, Mr. Weinberg, I have to say this because, you know, you selectively are taking paragraphs out of these things and you are painting a picture here.
But really what this is about is — this last thing you handed me is about trying to help these people. I’m telling the story about something that happened to Marty Rathbun, something that might have had a psychological
impact on him that he would need help resolving.Q But that wasn’t my question. All my question was, you did another posting about this incident which appears on Mr. Minton’s harassment time line in front of his house in 1998. Correct?
A You know, I need that time line right here. I mean, I’m saying it’s possible. But if you want to pull it out, you want to show me what you’re talking about, I think I can answer the question better.
Thank you.
MR. WEINBERG: Marked as 222.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You can identify this as your posting, can you not, Mr. Prince?
A Yes.
Q And in the second paragraph you say, “Bob and Jesse quickly helped with the pilot and started bullbaiting the protesters.”
When you say bullbaiting, that would suggest that you were, what, holding signs or doing something back?
A No. Bullbaiting is a term that is used in Scientology specifically to designate some of their training routines. The training routines are called TRs; TRs for short.
Part of the training routine is to be able to sit across from a person without flinching and without moving when the person makes gestures or tries to do something shocking; in other words, this is a routine to train you to keep your countenance during an adverse commission, I guess.
Q In here you said, “We had great fun”?
A Correct.
Q Now, do you know why this appeared on the harassment time line if it was so much fun?
A Well, you haven’t shown me that — and I have asked you, too, to show me on the time line. So I can’t answer these questions — you know, you are referring to
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something that I don’t have in front of me. I can’t see it.Q I thought from the testimony yesterday that you had reviewed the time line pretty closely?
THE COURT: Well, believe me, he has. It’s a very long thing. I think it’s a fair request. If you want him to specifically note whether it is on the time line or not, show him the time line.
MR. WEINBERG: I will.
THE COURT: My recollection is that document was extremely long.
MR. DANDAR: It is. And, Judge, I object to 222 because there has definitely been editing done. Right after “barbecue” and before the word “soup,” something is taken out.
MR. WEINBERG: No, it is not. You knew exactly what it is.
THE WITNESS: Where is that at?
MR. DANDAR: Where it said, “You invited Minton for barbecue,” after “barbecue” there is a blank, then there is “soup.”
THE COURT: 222, you are talking about?
MR. DANDAR: Yes. Right here.
THE WITNESS: Second paragraph? Oh, yes, you are right. You are right. It has been edited.
Something has been deleted from there.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q What was there? Because we didn’t edit anything.
A Yes, maybe you didn’t, but your client did. And I know specifically why.
What it said, “We were having BT and cluster soup.” BT is part of the secret cosmology of the upper levels of Scientology. So this has been, in fact, edited.
MR. DANDAR: I object to it. It is an altered document.
MR. WEINBERG: Are you testifying, first of all?
MR. DANDAR: I’m objecting to it based on Mr. Prince’s testimony. It’s an altered document by the defendant.
MR. WEINBERG: He identified it before, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Dandar just indicated that it had been altered. And so if it now — I’ll ask you, Mr. Prince, is that the original document, or has it been altered?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, this has been altered. This is not the original.
THE COURT: If you have one that has not been altered, then it will be admissible.
MR. WEINBERG: First of all, we didn’t alter
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anything.
THE COURT: I didn’t say you did. But if — I mean, I’m happy to write in the original what was there if Mr. Prince remembers it and everybody agrees.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Do you remember what was there?
A I remember exactly what was there. It says we were having barbecue BTs and cluster soup. “BTs” and “clusters” are words Scientologists aren’t allowed to use outside of Scientology.
Q So it’s a derogatory thing?
A No, there is nothing derogatory about BTs and clusters. This is a reality – something they believe in.
Q Well, I —
A But they are sensitive to it, so they altered the document.
MR. DANDAR: And I would object. If there is any more altered documents, that they not attempt to use them, or tell you in advance.
THE COURT: You just heard counsel say he did not know or believe it had been altered. So be careful, though, when you look at your documents.
That does look like something is missing from there. But I do know on my own E-Mails sometimes they
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all get askew and don’t seem to line up right. I was on the Florida Supreme Court website looking up stuff on the death penalty cases. And all of a sudden they go and they just stop. So you can’t tell by looking.
MR. DANDAR: But this one —
THE COURT: That one does appear to be where there is something clearly missing. So —
MR. WEINBERG: It obviously was not what I was focusing on, BT and cluster soup. But with the record indicating what Mr. Prince was saying was there, I offer the exhibit.
THE COURT: Take the original back and write it in.
MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
THE COURT: And ask Mr. Prince if that is what he recalls it said and, if so, then we can admit it with that —
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll let him write it because I don’t know — I assume how to spell it but I’m not sure how to spell it.
THE COURT: BT , is that like two initials.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Here. Do it like this.
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THE COURT: Everybody make notations on your copies. Cluster is C-L-U-S-T-E-R.
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And the original has “BT” and that he wrote in.
THE COURT: Okay. That will be admitted.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you remember that at this —
A Excuse me.
Q I wanted to show you the harassment time line. Let me show you what has been previously marked as the harassment time line, the “Time Line of Scientology Harassment of Robert Minton and Colleagues.”
I show you the entry for September 7, 1998. It says: “Scientologists picketed Mr. Minton’s home in New Hampshire again but it was done in a car with picket signs held out of the car window.”
A Correct.
Q So that was the incident, right?
A Yes.
Q Now, I want to play this. This is that — you remember you-all videoed this?
A I don’t remember videoing the incident, but let’s see what you have got.
Here is your pen, by the way —
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______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Don’t block her sign now, Jesse. I’ve gotta get a picture of that good sign.
“Okay. Let me put mine up.
“Okay, yeah.
“Hey, Maureen, just out here having a little chat.
So did you see that last — “(Inaudible.) I don’t know. All I can say is when I was in your position, there was a lot of —
“That you’re a staunch Scientologist. And it’s dangerous for you to believe otherwise because you’d be wrong.”
______________________________________
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Those are Mr. Minton’s signs?
A Correct.
______________________________________“Drive-by pickets. That’s cool.”
______________________________________MR. DANDAR: Could we clarify the people in the car are Scientologists?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q They are, aren’t they, Mr. Prince?
A They are. OSA personnel.
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______________________________________“Damn dumb asses. I got ’em. See, what they need, what they need is like a — what they need — what they need is a chain — I mean a long line of cars.
“They just don’t seem to be able to get more than two —
“Yeah.
“– for these little New Hampshire things.
“Hey, it’s an hour from Boston, man.
“Ain’t it pathetic. One person holding one sign out the window. And then when they go by this way, the driver can’t do it so the fucking sign’s over there. Oh, my God. How pathetic.
“They must think this is having some kind of terrible psychological impact.
“Yes, it’s just entertaining as all hell.
“Here they come.
“Okay.
(Inaudible.)
“Hey, you fucking idiot.
“They don’t have enough nerve to try to run over me.
“Me, either. I stood there, too. I just stood in the middle of the road and got ’em driving up.
“Look at this. This is a good one.
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“Here they come again. That’s when they were coming earlier. That’s all I got of them so far, but the two of them are good.
“Yeah.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________MR. WEINBERG: That is it?
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So you were having fun, you and Mr. Minton, in this thing on the harassment time line?
A Mmm, you know, Mr. Weinberg, I think even I said on that tape it was just an annoyance that they do it; though it was pathetic and though it was funny, it’s annoying. Now, you made a huge point about how harassed Scientology feels about being picketed. But when these people come by and picket, we’re supposed to be having fun. You can’t have it both ways.
Q Well, what do you call what they were doing, by the way? Do you call that harassment? Or do you call that the First Amendment?
A They were exercising their First Amendment rights.
But what happened that was harassing is that Bob and I didn’t have a clue they were even out there until they parked their cars, ran up to the door, knocked on the door
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screaming, “Minton, Minton, Minton,” then ran back to their cars. This is the only way they let us know they were there.
We are upstairs fooling around on the computers. These guys are banging on the doors. We wonder, what the heck. We run down. And we got the drive-by pickets going on.
Q They didn’t shout obscenities?
A Absolutely. “Where is your whore, Minton?” This kind of thing. Absolutely.
Q You didn’t hear that on the tape, though, did you?
A Well, of course not. Because what I’m speaking about is when they knocked on the door, and we were way in the back of the house. They wanted to make themselves known. Now, what they’re doing, going up and down there,
okay.Q Now, after this, after September of 1998, was this your first encounter with picketing, having signs and stuff like that?
A It could have been.
Q Now, after this, for the next — for the next four years, or almost four years, Mr. Minton and you and Ms. Brooks and other people affiliated with the Lisa McPherson Trust did all kinds of pickets in front of Scientology buildings, shouting obscenities, making threats,
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interfering with — with Scientologists going into their buildings and the like, didn’t you?
A That is categorically false.
MR. WEINBERG: Could you play the first tape, please. This is May 27 — this is again — this is the Lisa McPherson Trust.
______________________________________
(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Stick this in the right place. Scientology is a scam. A white meter. Fucking criminal. David Miscavige is a white Jew. He will be a convicted criminal.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, do you consider that harassment of the Church of Scientology? That was out in front of the church in Boston, wasn’t it?
A Yes. Was I there?
Q I’m asking you, do you consider that harassment?
MR. DANDAR: Objection. He’s not there. He should not be asked to comment about —
THE COURT: I think he can comment on that.
Overruled.
A You know, what I see there, that little snippet that you showed me, I would say yes, that is a bit annoying
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and harassing.
But I also suspect, because when Bob Minton would go out and picket, he would just be quiet, he wouldn’t say a word, he would just walk up and down the street.
But then the OSA people would come out, Maureen Garde, the person I was walking with in the previous video, they would come out and start talking to Mr. Minton about things from his therapy sessions.
This is where the therapy information started, in picketing the Boston org. And they would kind of whip him into a frenzy. And the whole idea was to bait Mr. Minton to make him look like an ass.
Well, you know, I agree everyone ended up looking like an ass on some of those things, but, you know, let’s put this in perspective, because these little snips aren’t going to work. These people were specifically targeting Mr. Minton to do psychological terrorism on him.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, is it a bit annoying that Mr. Minton said that L. Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige were wife beaters?
That is a bit annoying?
A And I’m sure he’s annoyed because Mrs. Maureen Garde started speaking to things about — from his confidential counseling sessions with Scientology.
How Scientology got that information, God only knows, because no one will ever speak on it, will they? But that is what was
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happening there.
Q And Mr. Minton, according to your testimony, was quiet on his pickets?
A He would just be as quiet as hell. Then if he got antagonized, he would start in. And I think that was known.
And, you know, you talk about me hating Scientologists. When you saw me in that first —
THE COURT: We’re well past the answer to that question.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: Play the next one, please.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Reform Scientology now. Don’t let David Miscavige destroy Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard would not approve of what David Miscavige has done.
“It’s safe to look. It’s safe to talk. Don’t let David Miscavige destroy the Church of Scientology. Make it something you can be proud of. Dump David Miscavige. Dump David Miscavige. It’s safe to talk. It’s safe to look. Don’t let David Miscavige destroy Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard would never approve of what Miscavige is doing. (Inaudible.)
“Reform Scientology now.
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“Don’t let the introspection rundown kill you. You don’t have to die in introspection rundown. You don’t have to let Miscavige scare you to death.
“Don’t be afraid.
“Don’t let Miscavige scare you out.
“It’s okay to confront the fact that Miscavige cannot handle some pressure.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You recognize that as people including Mr. Minton from the Lisa McPherson Trust, right where the Scientologists in Clearwater go to eat, right? That is where that was, wasn’t it?
A Yes, it was.
Q And that sure sounded like a direct attack on David Miscavige, didn’t it?
A Mmm, it sounded like there was definitely some problems with Miscavige being voiced there.
Q You saw Miss Greenway there, didn’t you?
A Yes.
Q You saw David Cecere from the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A Yes. I didn’t see me, though.
Q You were the vice-president of PR at the Lisa
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McPherson Trust, weren’t you?
A That is such a fabrication, it is laughable. I have never been — had anything to do with public relations, period. Can’t you tell?
Q So what was your position at the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A I was there specifically to help people who had been in — somehow had some gripe with Scientology that they wanted to make right.
And again I’ll say it. The work that we were doing at the Lisa McPherson Trust helped Scientology because you had a lot of garbage in the street, people that were hurt, people giving you a bad name.
When we finished with those people, they signed releases saying they wouldn’t speak disparagingly about you again, they got their money and they went on their way. Okay, that part needs to be told.
Q My only question was what was your title or position in the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A Vice-president.
Q Vice-president of what?
A The Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q And what was your responsibility there?
A I’ll say it again.
THE COURT: He just already said that.
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MR. WEINBERG: That is just what he said?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, were you referred to as the big boss at the Lisa McPherson Trust?
A No.
MR. WEINBERG: Play the next one, please.
_____________________________________
(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Make Scientology something to be proud of. Reform it now before David Miscavige ruins it. Find the new leaders within your organization whom you can be proud of.
“Stacy, why don’t you try to round some of them up?
“The Lisa McPherson Trust was established at 33 North Ft. Harrison Avenue in order to let the world know about the abusive practices which David Miscavige has caused Scientology to live by.
“The Lisa McPherson Trust will always be here to remind you that you have a responsibility to be good human beings. David Miscavige is ruining your organization.
“Telecommunications is one of the powerful things you have learned in Scientology. Use it.
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Try to use it to make the world a better place and start with dumping David Miscavige.
“If you ever want any help from Scientology, you can run to 33 North Ft. Harrison Avenue to the Lisa McPherson Trust.
“If you remember, Lisa McPherson is the woman who was held by Scientology for 17 days.
“The whole episode in the Church of Scientology’s Ft. Harrison Hotel was totally out-tech. Even the state prosecutor said it was totally out-tech. The whole thing was run by David Miscavige. David Miscavige is responsible for that woman’s death.
“Remember, David Miscavige is the one who performed the out-tech on Lisa McPherson.
“Remember, David Miscavige was responsible for the out-tech, out-tech handling of Lisa McPherson. She died after 17 days in captivity here.
“It was totally out-tech and you know it. You can look and smile.
“David Miscavige pulled the plug on Lisa. He pulled the plug on Hubbard’s tech. It’s time to face reality. Reform Scientology or it will be destroyed by David Miscavige.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
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______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, what was the reason that the Lisa McPherson Trust documented all these pickets by taking videos like this?
A Mmm, I think the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust always having the video when in close proximity to Scientology is the same reason that — for the same reason that happened to Mr. Minton when David Howe (phonetic) and another staff member — I think that was a staff member that attacked him. I personally took him to the hospital. He just raced him, no one is looking, boom.
So it became routine to take a video camera, in case something did happen that was truly criminal, that it could be documented. That was the purpose.
Q But it was for evidentiary purposes?
A Correct.
Q It wasn’t for posterity?
A Correct.
Q I mean, wasn’t this what the Lisa McPherson Trust was about — let me finish my question — to try to get rid of David Miscavige and to terrorize, using your word now, the Church of Scientology?
A I — I think Mr. Minton was very clear on what the Lisa McPherson Trust was for. And I’m glad you showed that
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video, because he made it clear he wasn’t out to destroy Scientology, make Scientology go away, as you have, you know, suggested earlier. He wanted it to reform. He wanted the criminal activities to stop.
Why does he pick David Miscavige? I think we need to talk about it. Because you know why? He’s the man that has the private investigators do what they do. He’s the one that — that instigates these vicious attacks against individuals who have any disparaging thing to say about Scientology.
Why does Mr. Minton mention him? Because he knows he’s the person that can change it. Just like that letter that was turned into evidence concerning Bernie McCabe.
He’s the person that can do it. If anyone can do it, Mr. Miscavige can do it.
Q Right. And you accused Mr. Miscavige of murder in your affidavit, didn’t you?
A I accused of — Mr. Miscavige of letting her die?
Q Of intentionally letting her die?
A Letting her die.
Q Intentionally?
THE COURT: We’ll not get anywhere. The document speaks for itself.
MR. WEINBERG: You are right.
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BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You suggested, stated, in your affidavit, that a decision was made, an intentional premeditated decision, to let her die?
A Correct.
Q This is the same man that you shouted obscenities about, it’s the same man we are watching videos of Mr. Minton and others stand up, asking to be deposed or thrown out of position, right?
A It’s the same man I audited. It’s the same man I have been friends with many years. It’s the same man I have done training with. It’s the same man I helped myself establish and build Scientology for many years. So add that into the equation, too.
Q You think he would call you his friend?
A I think if David and I sat down and talked, he would —
THE COURT: I have heard this question and I have heard this answer at least twice.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, when Mr. Minton said the words “Out-tech” that is something that means something to a Scientologist, correct?
A Correct.
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Q I mean, Mr. Minton, prior to getting involved with you —
THE COURT: Counselor, it is getting pretty bad to me because I understood it.
MR. WEINBERG: But — all right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q A Scientologist, or a judge that sat in a hearing for 28 days.
THE COURT: There you go.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q That is not something Mr. Minton or any of us, having not been exposed to Scientology before, would understand, correct?
A Yes.
Q And to be out — out to accuse the ecclesiastical leader of being out-tech is about as — about as serious and severe an accusation as you could possibly make against David Miscavige, isn’t it?
A Mmm, Mr. Weinberg, my answer is if the shoe fits, wear it.
Q Just answer that question.
A I did. If the shoe fits, wear it.
THE COURT: No, he wants to know if that is a serious accusation to make to other Scientologists about their ecclesiastical head. Is that a bad
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thing to the head of Scientology to be out-tech.
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
THE COURT: To another Scientologist, those folks seeing that demonstration, if they believed that, would not think very highly of their leader?
THE WITNESS: Correct.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q And would you not — from looking at that video or the other videos that you have seen so far, it doesn’t look like any of the Scientologists are having a lot of fun at your demonstrations, correct?
A You know, you have only shown me specifically Mr. Minton. You haven’t shown me what the Scientologists are doing or not doing, Mr. Weinberg.
Q Well, in that video we just showed, it was —
A It was going back and forth.
THE COURT: You know what, the deal is we are showing this for —
MR. WEINBERG: That is correct.
Could you play the next one, please.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Communicate to David Miscavige that he’s fired.
“Remember Lisa McPherson.
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“When you’re eating, remember Lisa at her last meal in December of ’95, held captive by the Church of Scientology leader, David Miscavige.
(Inaudible.)
“What is not safe for you is to stand there and do nothing. Tell David Miscavige he’s wrong. Tell him that L. Ron Hubbard would never approve of what he is doing to destroy your church.
“PK, PK, don’t run away.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Does it look, in that video — I mean, and others that we’ve seen — that Mr. Minton is terrorized, harassed or anything like that?
A Mmm, it looks like Mr. Minton was picketing, to me.
Q Now —
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Okay, are we going to do the locks?
“But the — are we going to do the alarms or –” (Inaudible.)
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________698
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You were just having a big time, you and Ms. Greenway?
A You know, that is an edited video you have there. It is — there is obvious editing there, so I would be hard-pressed to draw that conclusion.
Q When it started, it started like all of the pickets started inside the offices of the LMT, correct?
A That is a mischaracterization of how pickets started because every picket did not start in the Lisa McPherson Trust. Other people picketed the Ft. Harrison that weren’t associated with the Lisa McPherson Trust or employees of the LMT — Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q That clip from the LMT film library, that one started in the LMT building, didn’t it?
A I don’t know if it started or finished there because you have shown me one tiny segment. So, you know, if I could have some perspective and see the whole thing, I would be able to comment more accurately.
Q Now, the LMT — literally at times these pickets were intended to literally shut down Clearwater around where you-all were picketing, right?
A No.
MR. WEINBERG: Play that one, please.
______________________________________699
(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Last year, we were all over the place in a clump. We shut down here, we shut down here, we shut down there. We had Flag shut down for the whole day, anyway. This year we spread out in strategic spots and shut down the whole city.
“Frank Oliver came and caused the last breach. So far about two hours now they can’t hardly move anybody any way. They can pick up people from Flag but they can’t bring them in because they have to bring them in there, and they can’t do it.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
_______________________________________
BY MR. WEINBERG:Q That is somebody from the LMT?
A Absolutely not.
Q Who is that?
A Greg Hagglund. He lives in Canada.
Q And he was down here for the picket in December?
A Looking at that date of that, he was down for the picket and vigil. People come from all over the United States and even Europe for that. They were doing that long before the Lisa McPherson Trust ever existed or it was here in Clearwater. So, you know, it would be a real bad stretch to think that, you know, he’s working at the trust because
700
he’s picketing.
Q Well, is there a particular reason why the trust had that tape in its film library?
A Maybe someone videotaped it and gave it to the trust, Mr. Weinberg.
Q Well, who was the videotaper for the trust?
A Mark Bunker.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Remember Lisa McPherson. Okay, let’s go. (Inaudible.)
“– is one of our old friends.
“Yes. Some other friends from Germany, too.
“That is a good one, too.
“Where else would you like –”
(Inaudible.)
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Those are all people from the Lisa McPherson Trust, weren’t they?
A False.
Q Oh, Miss Caberta was from Germany, your guest over here?
A Ms. Caberta was here on vacation. Mrs. Caberta.
701
And if you will recall, you yourself earlier said she’s employed by the German government. So, you know, she’s not LMT. She’s just like you said, employed by the German government.
Q This was an LMT-sponsored picket in front of the Ft. Harrison Hotel?
A LMT has never, to my knowledge, sponsored a picket.
Q Is there a particular reason why Mr. Merrett was at that picket?
A I believe Mr. Merrett was at the picket to make sure that nothing happened, there were no altercations, no scuffles, no — you know, you’ll notice this, people, for the most part, are just silently walking up and down the street.
They are not screaming at Scientology itself or yelling at Scientologists; they are exercising their constitutional right to protest.
Q Do you think it might be somewhat harassing to the — on the doorstep of the mecca of Scientologists with signs saying “Blood of Lisa McPherson on your hands” and things like that?
A You know, I can see where someone could draw that inference or conclusion. But the inference and conclusion I draw is people were exercising their constitutional right.
If it was even a civil crime, they would have been sued out
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of existence.
Q Do you remember that the Lisa McPherson Trust — people documented by Lisa McPherson Trust video picketed in front of the Ft. Harrison Hotel when a Hindu wedding was going on? A Hindu wedding?
A No, I was not there. I know nothing about it.
Q As your position as the VP of the Lisa McPherson Trust, you don’t remember that one?
A Correct.
MR. WEINBERG: Why don’t we show that.
THE WITNESS: Was I present here?
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Well, Jesus, that is one thing Scientology didn’t believe in or any other religion, isn’t that right, guys? Isn’t that right? Isn’t that right? That is all — let’s let all of the Nazis come out.
“People are trying to have a wedding, sir.
“What is that?
“Hey, this is fine.
“They’re just trying to have a wedding. They are not —
“Listen, it’s not my fault they got married here.
“Come on now.
“This is a public sidewalk, buddy, so don’t start
703
pushing.
“This is not — (inaudible).
“This is a public sidewalk. Let’s get out of the way. It is still a public sidewalk. Okay?
“When you get out of Scientology, your luck will — (Inaudible.)
“Let’s go. Let’s go.
“Let’s go.
“Come on.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Why did the LMT put that in its film library?
A I think that every — and I’m not sure if this is not Mr. Mark Bunker’s film library that you are referring to — but, you know, we’re — we’re looking at here your two star witnesses. You are showing me videos of your witnesses that you have used in this hearing to testify for you. What are we doing here?
Q I think you said that this is the most harassed person you have ever seen. Does it look like Mr. Minton is the most harassed person you have ever seen when he’s standing there with a sign with skulls on it in front of the Ft. Harrison —
704
THE COURT: Don’t —
MR. WEINBERG: I’m sorry.
THE COURT: — raise your voice up to this witness and start approaching him.
MR. WEINBERG: I’m sorry.
THE COURT: I won’t have it. And I’m not going to remind you again.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q With a sign with skulls on it, interrupting a Hindu wedding?
A Mr. Weinberg, I agree with you what happened there — what happened was extremely inappropriate. And I don’t agree with it. And you didn’t see me there.
Q I’ll show you one you are at, Mr. Prince.
By the way, before you play that, that tape was done — the one we just played was done in — in September of 2000.
You were full-time at the Lisa McPherson Trust, correct?
A That is possible, yes.
Q Not possible. That is correct?
A I said it’s possible.
Q Why do you say it’s possible? I mean —
A Because I’m not sure when I made that transition from — I’ll explain it to you, I’m not trying to be coy
705
here, but there came a point in time when my work with Mr. Dandar involved doing a bunch of depositions of Scientology staff members or Scientologists or whatever and we worked together quite a bit then.
But then there came a period of time when it was time for the medical experts. Those people are the experts. He certainly didn’t need me there. So there came a point in time when I started working at the Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q In September of 2000 when that took place, you were on the payroll of the Lisa McPherson Trust, correct?
A It is possible, yes.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Jesse is — this is — Jesse, show him what you’re going to do if they come at you.
“Drop and fall. That is all. I’m going to fall down.
“Hey —
“You know what (inaudible).
“That is a good idea.
“Full resistance, that is our motto.
“How are you going to do it?
“Just carry the sign.
“Oh, my God.
“Kind of like the Three Stooges.
706
“The St. Pete Police.
“Yes, I told them I would be there by quarter to seven.
“Oh, God.
“Let’s do this.
“Guys, remember what we all agree with. We’re all staying together.
“Yes, boss.
(Inaudible.)
“Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay, well — Mmm, no.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, that is one of your six pickets?
A Rhetorical.
Q Excuse me?
A That is one of the six pickets I have probably been in.
Q And in that video we saw Patricia Greenway, correct, who is in the audience, right?
A Show it to me again. I missed that.
THE COURT: Yes, she was there.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I’ll take your word.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Peter Alexander, who testified in this hearing?
707
THE COURT: I don’t know if he was there or not.
MR. WEINBERG: He was.
THE COURT: I didn’t recognize him, but —
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q The gentleman, sort of young guy in the pink or red shirt, that was Graham Berry, correct?
A Correct.
Q The lawyer from LA?
A Correct.
Q Now, your sign, “Mafia Cult”?
A Correct.
Q And that was —
A In relationship to the black operations that are run out of OSA.
Q And you were picketing, you walked from the LMT — this was an LMT operation, wasn’t it? That is where you-all left from, from the LMT?
A Yes.
Q And at that point, you were full-time at the LMT?
A I — I’ll stipulate to that, sure.
Q Except you were still working for Mr. Dandar, you were still doing stuff on the Lisa McPherson case, weren’t you?
A Well, you know, as I said, Mr. Weinberg, there
708came a time when Mr. Dandar was solely doing medical experts. There was certainly no need for me to sit there through that.
MR. WEINBERG: One second, your Honor.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, you, Mr. Dandar and a number of other people from the LMT were at the closing when Mr. Minton closed on the purchase of the building either at the — at the beginning — January 5 of 2000, is that right?
A I believe that is correct.
Q And Mr. Dandar was — and you and Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks were very enthusiastic about the LMT and how the LMT was going to — to operate. Correct?
A Yes.
Q And Ms. Liebreich was very enthusiastic about the LMT opening, correct?
A I don’t think Mrs. Liebreich was there.
Q But do you remember that the first phone call that was made was made to Ms. Liebreich, and you talked to her, among other people?
A I think I remember something about that, yes.
Q And she was very enthusiastic about that. Right?
A She was very happy and proud that the last wishes of Fannie McPherson were actually taking effect, which was to expose any deceptive and abusive processes by
709
Scientology, you know.
Mr. Minton is — just wants reform, tired of people calling, tired of people saying, “Can you please help.”
Q Your testimony, I believe, was — and correct me if I’m wrong — that you never met with Mr. Dandar for any purpose — for any meeting type purpose at the LMT. Is that right?
A Correct.
Q Now, do you remember at this opening that — at this closing where, in essence, the LMT was opening, that you described — or someone described what your position and responsibility was going to be at the LMT?
A I don’t recall it specifically, Mr. Weinberg.
Q And you deny it was in charge of PR, right?
A Correct.
MR. WEINBERG: If you could play that, please.
This is another video from the LMT.
______________________________________(WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
“Ken, I’m sorry there’s no more chairs.
“It is okay.
“Sign first — (inaudible).
“You want to sit down? Here is the — these are the — (inaudible).
710
“Did you bring the property insurance papers?
“Of course not.
“You didn’t?
(Inaudible.)
“You mean the balance, it’s everything you did fax me yesterday.
(Inaudible).
“The insurance papers are the closing paper for the mortgage.
“Yeah. Right. Right.
(Inaudible.)
“That is okay. That is okay.
“It’s just that we don’t have the check for him — or, we have the check but — (inaudible).
“How are we going to do it? How are you going to do it?
(Inaudible.)
“No, I’ll just tell you to send a check and how much it is. (Inaudible.) It’s a binder.
(Inaudible.)
“If Scott has a fax machine I can fax it to him.
“Hang on one second. Okay?
“Yes.
“Okay.”
711
______________________________________BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Is that Tom Tobin from the St. Pete Times?
A I believe it is.
______________________________________“This is Steve Mitchell. This is Jesse Prince.
“Nice to meet you, Jesse.
“Nice to meet you.
“He’s an expert on Scientology in the Lisa McPherson case. He’s going to be also working at the trust.
“Oh. Terrific.
(Inaudible.)
“So he has an idea of what we’re dealing with. Big time, right?
“Big time, Bobby. This is too cool.
“Jesse, what are you going to do with this organization?
“Make it as successful as possible.
“I mean, what’s your job or what — do you have functions or duties or —
“I’m on the board of directors. And I’m going to just, you know, be here with the organization, get it through its initial phase of establishing itself, and run around and do public relations.
“Oh, really.
712
“Yes.
“He’s also an expert on the Lisa McPherson case so he’s going to be spending a lot of time with Ken Dandar so he’ll be –”
(Inaudible.)
“He’s been working, you know, intimately with Ken on this case for a long time.
“Oh.
(Inaudible.)
“You mean, does he own the building now?
“Thank you very much. Thank you. Scott.
“Thank you.
“Thank you very much. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate this.
“I wish you the best. I hope you do well with this.
“Thank you.
“Scott’s been under a lot of pressure, I’m sure.
“Congratulations.
“Thank you.
“Jesse.
“Hey, Ken?
“Hey, Ken?
“So anybody want to open that champagne?
(Inaudible.)
713
“Ken, your comments?
“Well, I think this is a good day for downtown Clearwater.
“Hi, Mike. How is it going?
“Happy New Year.
“We just closed on the building.
“Okay. Call me.
“I have a binder in my office.”
(End of playing of the video tape.)
______________________________________MR. DANDAR: Could we have a stipulation that was edited by the defense?
MR. WEINBERG: I mean —
THE COURT: I don’t know if it was or not.
MR. WEINBERG: I mean, Mr. Bunker edited a lot of these tapes before he ever gave them to us. I mean —
MR. DANDAR: Well, whatever.
MR. WEINBERG: I mean —
THE COURT: All I can say, Counselor, it is available for you to get a copy of, so —
MR. DANDAR: I know.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, what was the Lisa McPherson trial consultant and the Lisa McPherson case lawyer doing at the closing of
714
the LMT building?
A It looks like they were partaking in the festivities, to me.
Q It does to me, too, Mr. Prince.
A Yeah.
Q Now, when Ms. Brooks said that you were going to be doing public relations, was your first job to get Tom Tobin from the St. Pete Times there?
A You know, I think that is a leap in logic. And I think the person that actually said doing public relations stuff was me. I don’t think it was Ms. Brooks.
Q All right, I stand corrected. When you said you were doing public relations, what did you mean?
A I think that that was just an offhand comment. And I didn’t even know what I meant. Maybe I had some intention on doing something public relations-wise.
But what factually ended up happening is once the door opened, the phones started ringing. And as I mentioned, you know, getting through the initial establishment part, to find out exactly what our role is going to be, it simply turned into servicing current and ex-Scientology members.
Q The way you got your message out was to carry signs and picket in front of the Church of Scientology?
A That was the one thing that was done.
715
Q And — but at this time when this started in January 5 of 2000, you were in charge of public relations but you were being paid by Mr. Dandar to be a so-called expert in the Lisa McPherson case. Correct?
A That is totally incorrect. There was no public relations. I was not doing public relations, orchestrating public relations, media contact.
Mr. Weinberg, if you have shown anything with the indiscretion I have used, public relations is not anything that I would even pretend to be versed in, so, you know, let’s move on.
THE COURT: I’m going to tolerate about one more of these, then I can’t stand any more for the day. I still do not know why we’re playing all of these, but —
MR. WEINBERG: I can explain.
THE COURT: I’ll let you do that in closing argument, but I can only stand one more today, so play it and —
MR. WEINBERG: I’ll play one more and it will be this one.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: December 2, picket across from the Ft. Harrison.
I want you to look for Mr. Dandar here. All
716
right?
THE WITNESS: Okay. All right.
THE COURT: What is the date again, Counselor?
MR. WEINBERG: December 2, 2000.
THE WITNESS: Was I at this picket?
(WHEREUPON, the video was played. No audio available.)
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q You recognize the person with the sign was Frank Oliver?
A Yes.
Q You recognize Teresa Summers? She testified in this case.
A Yes.
Q You recognize yourself?
A Yes.
Q You recognize Mr. Merrett?
A Yes.
Q You recognize Mr. Minton?
A Yes.
Q You recognize Mr. Dandar. Correct?
A Yes.
Q And that was in front of the Ft. Harrison during a picket, wasn’t it?
THE COURT: I didn’t see any signs except
717
one — I did not see what I would classify as a picket.
A There was no picket. And I remember this incident, if you’ll let me explain it to you.
Bob Minton had come into town and Ken needed to talk to him or see him for something. Mr. Dandar simply stopped by. Mr. Dandar was not a part of any picket or doing anything. He simply knew where Mr. Minton was going to be, he came there, spoke with him and left.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q So what were you-all doing there?
THE COURT: I saw folks across the street, Counsel, that had signs, then somebody said hi, went across the street. That is where Mr. Dandar was.
The sign was down. The only one person that had it, they were talking, then somebody put a sign up and went off like there was something else going on someplace else.
I don’t think it would be fair to classify what Mr. Dandar was in was a picket. I could not tell they were in front of any hotel, either.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Well, you recognize that was across from the Ft. Harrison?
A No, I do not.
718
THE COURT: I don’t know where it was because I couldn’t tell. It looked like a street corner. It might have been. I don’t recognize that.
MR. DANDAR: I can tell you, Judge. It was catty-corner across the street from the Ft. Harrison. These people with signs who were across the street from me, across the street from the Ft. Harrison, were standing in front of the new Super Power building. But I wasn’t part of any picket.
That is right.
BY MR. WEINBERG:
Q Now, was Mr. Merrett part of the picket?
A No, he was not.
Q Were you?
A No, I was not.
Q So you had been — so all these LMT people were sort of off to the side, and there were other LMT people that were holding signs?
A You know, again, Counselor, I’m not trying to be difficult here. You are showing snippets and you are drawing conclusions. The conclusion that I see from this snippet is we are simply standing there having a conversation. No one but no one is picketing.
THE COURT: Looks like there was getting ready to be a picket. There were people with signs, but
719
when they saw Dandar, it looks like somebody waved, walked across the street, the guy that had the sign, whoever that was, the one, put his sign down. When he picked up the sign, he went walking off to where I would presume a picket was going on. But those other folks were across the street that must have been going for a picket, I’m guessing.
MR. WEINBERG: You said that was the last one you wanted to see.
THE COURT: That is absolutely the last one I want to see.
It is 5 o’clock. We’re done for the day.
We’ll see you at 9 o’clock tomorrow.
MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. Have a good night.
(WHEREUPON, Court stands in recess at 5 o’clock.)
_____________________________________720
REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties’ attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action.
DATED this 9th day of July, 2002.
______________________________
LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
Testimony of Jesse Prince (Volume 1) (June 18, 2002)
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,vs.
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants._______________________________________/
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants’ Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
CONTENTS: Testimony of Jesse Prince.1
VOLUME 1
DATE: June 18, 2002, afternoon session.
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida.BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge.
REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR,
Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.2
APPEARANCES:
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
35340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
Attorneys for Plaintiff.MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for PlaintiffMR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
40 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
Attorney for LMT.3
INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
PAGE LINE
JESSE PRINCE 5 13
DIRECT Mr. Dandar 6 5
[…]
MR. DANDAR: All right. Plaintiff calls Mr. Prince.
JESSE PRINCE, the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
MR. WEINBERG: For the record, your Honor, I want to preserve the same objection that we’ve made to Mr. Franks — is that his name — Mr. Franks and Mr. Young, which is, among other things, the 404, 406, the First Amendment, and overall, at least as it relates to the — paragraph 34 of the complaint, to competence, in light of the fact that he left the church years before and doesn’t have any personal knowledge of what if anything occurred in 1995.
THE COURT: All right.
6
MR. WEINBERG: Same objection. I presume that it’s preserved? And I will limit my objections to things like hearsay and other —
THE COURT: It is preserved.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Please state your name, and spell your last name.
THE COURT: What witness is that? Do you all have the numbers by any chance? How many witnesses have you called, do you remember?MR. DANDAR: Caught me off guard.
THE COURT: All right. I’m just trying to put a number with it.
Go ahead.
A Jesse Prince, J-e-s-s-e, P-r-i-n-c-e.
MR. DANDAR: Okay. I think we’re number six.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. DANDAR: I’ll double-check. Mr. Lirot will be checking.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Mr. Prince, how long have you lived in Pinellas County?
A Oh, for a little over two and a half years.
Q Are you currently employed?
A No, I am not.
7
Q When is the last time you were employed?
A Last September.
Q And who were you employed by?
A The Lisa McPherson Trust.
Q What is the extent of your formal education?
A Went to Catholic school pretty much all of my elementary years. I was born and raised a Catholic. Went to Chicago Vocational High School; went to Job Corps; went to community college, college prep in Chicago. I had a scholarship for University of Louisiana which I never took. And that’s pretty much it.
Q Why didn’t you take the scholarship to Louisiana?
A ‘Cause I was afraid to go there.
Q All right.
MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could we possibly — I don’t know if the microphone’s on or not, but I’m having a hard time hearing Mr. Prince.
THE COURT: Check and see if the microphone’s on.
MR. WEINBERG: If you could get — not that close, but a little bit closer than he was.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Just try to talk into it.
A Okay.
Q So what did you do after finishing your formal
8
education?
A I had various jobs. I worked at the Norfolk and Western Railroad as a clerk. I’ve worked in binderies, a place in Chicago, Fidelity Bindery. And — well, wasn’t too much time after that before I became a Scientologist.Q What year did you join the Church of Scientology?
A It was 1976.
Q Where at?
A San Francisco.
Q And when did you become a Sea Org member?
A I became a Sea Org member that same year. I believe I transferred to Los Angeles from San Francisco, maybe in November, September or — maybe September; sometime between September or October, November, I went to the Sea Org.
Q Okay. And can you tell us — give us a capsule of your experience in the Church of Scientology after becoming a Sea Org member? What did you do?
A Well, I joined the Sea Org in ’76. And then at that time, when you joined the Sea Org, there was a program that was called the EPF that everyone who was becoming a Sea Org member did. EPF stood for estate’s project force. This was located in a little house in — in Los Angeles. I guess it was an old Charlie Chaplin estate. It was a place where you had to do training to become a Sea Org member.
9
The training for the most part culminated to making you a missionaire. A missionaire in the Sea Org is a person that has studied certain levels up to at least what’s called staff status 2, which basically means you’re familiar with the basics of the organization, how it operates, how it’s staffed, how it’s organized, the statistics of the area and the rules and regulations. It trains — the mission school training involved something that I guess I never even thought before. It was very military, where you — you wear a uniform and you — you’re trained on orders to go to a Scientology organization and improve the statistics by either changing personnel or increasing production one way or the other.
Q And how long did you maintain that status?
A During the entire time, from — from that point, which would have been in 1977, to the time that I left in 1992.
Q And what organization — when you became a Sea Org member and became staff, what organization was paying you?
A Organization called the Advanced Organization Los Angeles.
Q And did you ever change from that to another?
A Yes, I did. I never made it through the EPF before I was put on the RPF. I was on the RPF for — RPF being the rehabilitation project force. I was on the RPF for 18 months. And I got out of the RPF and went to an organization called the PAC Co-Auditor Organization, P-A-C, Pacific Area Command, Co-Auditor Organization. This was a Scientology organization that basically supervised and trained staff members to audit themselves on Scientology’s bridge.
Q How long did you stay there?
A I probably stayed there for probably a little under a year. And I transferred from Los Angeles to here in Clearwater, Florida in 1979, and I worked in — at the Ft. Harrison —
Q What did you do —
A — and various other buildings.
I came there — I came to Florida here to be a supervisor; to actually train and supervise the training of auditors, which are members that partake in the — the technical aspect of delivery of Scientology services.
Q You were an auditor?
A Yes, I was.
Q And when did you —
THE COURT: I’m sorry. You came to Clearwater when, sir?
THE WITNESS: 1979.
THE COURT: To train supervisors.
THE WITNESS: To — to become a supervisor. I
11
came here actually as a supervisor, to train auditors.At the time, NED for OTs had recently come out. This was a big advance.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q NED, N-E-D?
A Yes.
Q What does that mean?
A New era dynamics for operating thetans.
Q This had just come out?
A Yes. This was new technology that had came out. And it was urgent at that time in Scientology to be able to train auditors in this new rundown. This rundown is delivered only by certain organizations, Flag being one of them. There’s others in other countries. And this was a very specialized type of auditing. So I was to train the bulk of the auditors on this process so that they could then go back to their organizations and deliver this new rundown.
Q How did you did learn how to do it — how did you learn about it before you were able to train other auditors?
A Well, there were other auditor levels that one had to train on before being able to train on this NED for OT levels. I guess there was a requirement that a person had to at least do Scientology academy levels, which are levels 0 to 4, specific auditing techniques. And once you were in — trained and interned on that, you became eligible to also learn to do this new NED for OTs business. You also had to be of the same case level in order to do that. So for a person to be trained as a NED for OTs auditor, they would have had to go through Scientology’s bridge all the way up to and through OT 3 expanded.
Q How far up the bridge had you gotten before you came to Clearwater?
A I had done — or I was mid what was called old OT 6.
Q Okay.
A And at the time, the levels only went to OT 7. So I was on the old OT 6. Now, those OT levels changed with he advent of NED for OTs to become something totally different. OT 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are something totally different than what the services that were earlier offered under those same names.
Q How long did you stay in Clearwater, from 1979, to supervise and train auditors?
A I was here from the summer of ’79 till the fall of 1982.
Q And did your scope of the work that you were doing at the Ft. Harrison and other Scientology buildings here in Clearwater from ’79 to ’82 change?
A Yes, it did. It changed several times. I went
13
from supervising auditors, to train them to get up to the level of NED 4 OTs, to being —
THE COURT: I don’t know what you’re saying. NED fro-teez (phonetic.)
THE WITNESS: New era dynamic for operating thetans. This is —
MR. DANDAR: NED is N-E-D.
THE COURT: For OTs.
MR. DANDAR: F-o-r. Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
A Anyway, I forgot what I was —
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Was NED for OTs —
A Yes.
Q — written by Mr. Hubbard?
A At the time that I studied them, I thought that it was that. I — subsequently I guess it was determined in the courtroom that the materials were actually written by David Mayo.
Q Okay. But anyway, you were — who were you working for when you were sent to Clearwater from ’79 to ’82?
A Well, when I first arrived in 1979, I worked for an organization that wasn’t at the Ft. Harrison but at the Clearwater Bank Building. It was called the International
14
Training Org, ITO for short. At the time the commanding officer for the international training organization was Bill Franks.
Q Okay. So you worked under him?
A Under his command as the commanding officer. I had — there were other people between myself and —
Q Okay.
A — Mr. Franks for sure.
Q Did you run into — in Clearwater, did you train Alain Kartuzinski?
A Yes. Alain Kartuzinski was a student that had come from Paris to train on NED for OTs. I do believe the original idea for him was to go to one of the European organizations such as Advanced Organization for Europe or — 15 yeah. I think he was supposed to go to AOSH EU —
Q Okay.
A — it’s called, which is located in Copenhagen, Denmark. Or he would go to the one located in Saint Hill, East Grinstead, Sussex.
Q Try to keep closer to the microphone.
A I’m sorry.
Q And what else did you do in Clearwater from ’79 to ’82, in addition to training auditors on this new rundown?
A Well, I became what’s known as the intern supervisor, which is the supervisor that takes the students
15
that have finished their courses and then puts them through a period of time where they have to demonstrate their skills by auditing other people. And they continue to do this until they can do it perfectly and flawlessly. The intern supervisor is there to guide and direct and correct students on the materials that they may not have understood as deeply and as — as would later be required for them to apply. So I was the supervisor for a long time. And then there is another position — and all of these things are — kind of segue into one another — of what’s called a cramming officer. Now, a cramming officer will take a person who maybe is making errors in auditing and then correct them on their procedures or go over the exact bulletin or policy or whatever it may be that was not followed exactly, and to make the person understand and agree with that policy, and then apply it as written.
So I did that for a long time. And then I became the chief cramming officer at the Flag Service Organization. I did this correction type of activities for auditors from level 0 to level 12, which would be the highest level in what are called the Ls in Scientology. And I would do correction on all the auditors as well as the case supervisors.
Q Now, were you — did you have — in order to be a supervisor or cramming officer for auditors and supervisors,
16
if I’m saying this right, did you have more training than they had?
A Not necessarily. I certainly did not have more training than the majority of the case supervisors that I would do correction on. And I did not train on the Ls, which would be 10, 11 and 12, which are the highest levels of — of Scientology. But I was like a class 9 auditor.
Q At that time.
A Yes.
Q Did you ever get higher than that?
A Yes. I became a — I was interned as an auditor, certified as a class 9 auditor; certified as a corrections — a cramming officer, correction officer; certified as a case supervisor for a class 9 as well.
Q Okay. And how high on the bridge did you go?
A When I left, I had completed what’s known in Scientology as OT 7.
Q Okay. All right. So have we covered your years from ’79 to ’82 in Clearwater —
A Yes.
Q — as what you did?
A Yes.
Q Okay. What did you do after ’82?
A I was transferred — well, in 1982, in the fall of 1982, I was transferred to work at the Scientology
17
International headquarters. Of course I didn’t know it was that at the time. But I was transferred to work at Golden Era Productions, which is the movie production studio that Scientology has in the desert at Gilman Hot Springs, California. I was transferred to work in the RTC as a corrections specialist.
Q And how long did you do that?
A I probably did that from ’82 — for about a year and a half. I did that job for about a year and a half. Maybe to 1985 and — or maybe even ’84. Because after that, I was promoted to a higher position; became the deputy inspector general for the Religious Technology Center.
Q And who appointed you to that position?
A Vicki Aznaran appointed me to that position. It was approved by those that — you know, the seniors above that area, which was David Miscavige.
Q Did Mr. Hubbard ever have any input in any of the selections — selecting you for any position?
A In — in as much as when I left here in Florida, there was a — a mission out to find the best supervisor, best cramming officer in Scientology, and to bring that person to international management, and correct international management on its application of Scientology policies. A search was done in the organizations internationally, and at the end of that — the weeding-out
18
process, I guess my name came up as the person to fill that job. So he was informed that I had that job, and he welcomed me to that job when I arrived in California.
Q How did he — Mr. Hubbard welcome you to that job?
A He sent me a dispatch, a letter —
Q Okay.
A — welcoming me.
Q And what is the duties of the deputy inspector general of RTC?
A Well, this may take a while. But as the deputy inspector general — there’s only one position higher than that in the Scientology ecclesiastical org board, which would have been inspector general. RTC licensed other Scientology corporations to use the trademarks, a licensing agreement. And RTC was responsible, I believe — maybe still is responsible — for ensuring the purity of application and delivery of Scientology technology, auditing technology as well as administrative policies.
And so because we licensed different corporations such as the Church of Scientology International — if you had organizing chart you would have RTC, which would be here; then you would have the mother church, which is the Church of Scientology International, which is here. The
19
mother church in turn then license other organizations, such as the Flag Service Organization, AOSH EU, AOSH UK, and the Los Angeles organization missions. Whatever entities were using the trademarks and copyrighted works of L. Ron Hubbard, they were given a licensing agreement.
So in that regard, ultimately — there’s a very strict policy in Scientology called Keeping Scientology Working, where it’s imperative that everything is done exactly according to the policies and technical bulletins written. I was ultimately responsible to ensure that not only the Church of Scientology International was making good on its licensing agreements, but it was also enforcing it down through other organizations to make sure that they were adhering to their licensing agreement to apply Scientology technology 100 percent standard. You know, this is a — a term that they use. So I had that responsibility —
[Other court business transpires.]
[…]THE COURT: — okay?
Okay. Go ahead and continue.
A I hadn’t quite finished answering the last question.
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BY MR. DANDAR:Q Do you remember what it was?
A Yes. The last question was what were my responsibilities as deputy inspector general —
Q Yes?
A — at RTC.
And I mentioned we used to do the technology side of Scientology.
Then there was a separate area, areas that I also had responsibility for. And those were the legal intelligence and PR activities of OSA, which is a separate network in Scientology. And I had the responsibility of also registering, getting trademarks registered in the different countries of the world where Scientology was — had activity.
Q Okay. So what did you have to do with legal and intelligence departments of OSA?
A In the — in the beginning, not very much, because it was nothing that I really knew anything about. This was something that I learned as part of this — this job activity. So I would — I was privy to the activities of those areas as I learned the strategies for those areas.
Q Would you receive reports from OSA? A Yes. I would receive a report. Every executive — well, not every — I shouldn’t say every
2
executive, but the top executives in Scientology were kept abreast of the different operations in intelligence, legal and PR, by — at the end of the night — just before the end of the night, I would receive an envelope that said “Eyes only.” And inside the envelope there would be typewritten pages, maybe seven or eight typewritten pages, that gave a summary of the different operations that legal, PR and intelligence were involved in. And after reading that information, it was shred — something that had to be shredded instantly.Q It wasn’t stored somewhere?
A No.
Q When you say legal operations, what are you talking about?
A Legal cases.
THE COURT: Did you get this every day, you say?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Every day we get —
THE COURT: How — in those days — I don’t know. There was no e-mail. How did you get it?
THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, this isn’t information that — in an envelope, typed on, obviously, a —
THE COURT: I mean, if you’re in Los Angeles, and Flag down here in Clearwater wants to send you
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something at the end of the day, how did they get it from Clearwater to you?
THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, no one from Clearwater would have sent me anything, because there’s a chain of command. There are channels. In other words, executives in Scientology aren’t accessible to staff members of lower organizations or things like this. You have to go through a chain of command in order to have correspondence with an executive, or be asking for a specific privilege from that executive, after having gone through the channels.
THE COURT: Okay. But somebody — if — you got seven or eight pages from somebody —
THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. This was brought — brought around from a person in the intelligence area, and they would simply come in, drop the envelope on the desk and leave.
THE COURT: Okay. Whoever it is that would bring that envelope to you, from wherever it is, how was it that they got the information, for example, from Flag on the day’s activities? This is really a very simple question. This is: Was it faxed? Was it gotten there by horseback? I mean, how did they get it from Flag in
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Clearwater up the line to whoever it is that dropped it off on your desk? Just physically.
THE WITNESS: Well, there could have been several ways that the information could have been passed along. It could have been passed along from telephonic communications; it could have been passed along via the computer. At that time, when — the time that I’m speaking about there was no, quote/unquote, real Internet, but Scientology had its own computer messaging systems where we could send messages to each other from Europe or from Florida to Los Angeles. So that was a way that information would come in as well.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And was OSA part of RTC?
A No. Not — not during the time that I was there, OSA was not part of the RTC. During my time period in OSA, OSA was in a very formative stage of being formed, being — departments figured out, purposes, duties, that kind of thing.
Q Was there any carryover from The Guardian’s office to OSA?
A Yes, there was. The staff — there were a
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carryover of some of the staff and some of the — and the policies.
Q Now, let’s just go back — you said one of the things you would get daily is a report on legal operations. Is that just in the United States?
A Yes. Well, predominantly. But I don’t think we had any cases abroad of any real significance outside of the United States during my time period.
Q And when you were a deputy inspector general, who was your senior?
A The inspector general, which is Vicki Aznaran.
Q And who was her senior?
A David Miscavige.
Q And who was his senior?
A L. Ron Hubbard. Pat Broeker.
Q And when Mr. Hubbard died, who was Mr. Miscavige’s senior?
A He had none.
Q And when you were deputy inspector general, you were a member of the Sea Org, correct?
A Correct.
Q Who was the head of the Sea Org?
A The captain of the Sea Org was David Miscavige.
Q Did he have any equal to his rank?
A I’m sure he probably did.
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Q He had other captains?
A Yes.
Q And would they have equal power as David Miscavige?
A No.
Q Why not?
A Well, again, I’ll refer to the organizational chart, the command charts, which is an exhibit in this case.
You have a — a kind of pyramid system of organizations as far as seniority, powers — broad powers and responsibility. And at the top of the chain is RTC, Religious Technology Center. Below that is CSI, Church of Scientology International, which is the mother church. And then from there you have like a — what’s called a FOLO, Flag Office Liaison Office, which is supposed to be a management center in the different sectors and countries where Scientology has activity.
An example of — of that would be here in Clearwater. You have the Ft. Harrison as one — the Ft. Harrison Building, or the Flag, which is one organization. And separate from Flag you have another organization called the FLB, the Flag Land Base organization, which, during my period of time, concerned itself with the buildings, the maintenance of the buildings, and then also did the missions, where they would pull Sea Org members to send to
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other areas, train them on specific orders to go out and accomplish different things in the organizations.
Q While you were in Scientology, could a Sea Org mission go in and take over a completely independent org like the Boston org?
A Well, that — that was the entire purpose of a mission, to go in an area —
Well, that’s not entirely true. There’s different types of mission. You could have a mission that would simply go in there and observe —
THE COURT: His question was, could the Sea Org go in and take over?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And what gave it the power to do that?
A The Sea Org is the organization that is responsible ultimately for the success of Scientology. The persons that are in the Sea Org have dedicated themselves to Scientology for one billion years, and their dedication is to ensure that Scientology carries on and prevails in the society we live in.
Q And you signed a billion-year contract as well, correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, the intelligence operations —
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Well, let’s go back to legal operations. Would you receive a report daily of what was going on in each and every case that the Church of Scientology was involved in?
A Pretty much, yes. If there was activity, if there was courtroom activity that day, or a motion that was being put together or — or whatever, I’d receive the report about that.
Q So if there was a lawsuit that the Boston org —
I’m sorry. I’m picking on Boston — the Boston org was a party to and had a lawyer representing them in court, would you receive a daily report on the activity of that lawsuit?
A Yes. If there was daily activity on that lawsuit, I would certainly receive information about it.
MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could we just date from when it started to when it ended, that he was getting this kind of info?
THE COURT: I think he was saying during the whole time that he was deputy inspector general.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And I think he hadn’t said when that ended.
THE COURT: Okay. What was the period of time that you were deputy inspector general?
THE WITNESS: I would say from early 1985 until January, 19, 1987. ’84. I’d say ’84. Early ’84.
THE COURT: ’85 — early ’84 to January of ’87.
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THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Now, when you were deputy inspector general of RTC, was Mr. Miscavige the chairman of the board?
A No. Mr. Miscavige was the chairman of the board of Author Services.
Q Okay. Do you know who the chairman of the board of RTC was at the time you were deputy inspector general?
A I later came to find out the chairman of the board of RTC — it changed a couple of times, to my knowledge, but I think the person who was — the last person who I knew was actually chairman of the board was David Miscavige.
Q Okay.
THE COURT: Well, I thought — let me stop you just for a minute here. I thought you indicated that the chain of command was the deputy inspector general, who was you, reported to the inspector general, who was Vicki Aznaran, who reported to David Miscavige. In what capacity?
THE WITNESS: David Miscavige was the chairman of the board of Author Services. Author Services was a literary —
THE COURT: Believe me, I know about Author Services.
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THE WITNESS: Okay. So —
THE COURT: So that — all I’m trying to find out is the capacity in which David Miscavige was, that Vicki Aznaran reported to, was as chairman of the board of ASI?
THE WITNESS: No. He was really captain of the Sea Org.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q How could Vicki Aznaran and RTC, a religious organization, have a senior who’s a chairman of the board of a for-profit organization?
A Well, that’s exactly the point. Being-senior part and — and giving orders and things from Miscavige to Aznaran wasn’t anything that the general Scientology public would know about. This was kind of kept secret, in the same way that Scientology staff members or Scientology public members don’t realize that Gilman Hot Springs is the location of international management of Scientology; in that same regard they would not know that Miscavige ultimately would be the seniors of a person such as myself, Vicki Aznaran and that kind of thing.
Or we couldn’t have that — it couldn’t be clear that — that that was the case because that presented problems with the tax — we’re trying to get tax exempt status — to have a for-profit corporation running a
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nonprofit corporation.
But Miscavige was the leader. Was and is the leader. I mean, at the even when L. Ron Hubbard was alive, he would do his communications through Miscavige, that would come to us.
Q Okay. And so was — was Miscavige, Vicki Aznaran senior — and I think you already answered — COB of ASI as captain of the Sea Org?
A As captain of the Sea Org.
Q Now, the intelligence reports that you would get daily, what kind of intelligence reports would you get?
A Ones that I remember specifically at this time had to do with different activities in the Wollersheim case, whether it be Wollersheim 3, 4 or whatever; you know, what was happening with the lawyers, what was overheard, what was planned, what kind of information was coming up during what’s called a ODC and CDC. ODC being overt data collection. They would collect information about the attorney, his — you know, his record. They would do an ODC. And then a CDC. And a CDC mainly entailed getting information that is not readily available or is public knowledge, such as personal phone records; a credit report, bank reports, an individual’s bank reports, this kind of thing.
Q How did OSA get an opposing counsel’s bank
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reports?
A Hiring a private investigator.
Q And how did the private investigator get an attorney’s private bank records?
A This is something that they were hired to do. It was — it was very much shunned that we know specifically how that happened in case it ever went to court or the person was ever caught. So it was just, “Hey, we need this. We need a credit report on this person. We need his phone records. We need to know who he’s talking about, who he’s talking with,” and to do an analysis to find this person’s weakness. What is the Achilles’ Heel? What is going to get this person to stop giving grief to Scientology even if — in a professional capacity as an attorney. And then, you know, pursue those things that will intimidate, harass or discourage.
Q And why — what gave you, as a member of the Church of Scientology, the authority to do that, under the — under the rules and regulations or the policies of the Church of Scientology?
A I’ve seen many exhibits turned into this courtroom concerning policies on intelligence and attitude. And I guess the overriding factor is this: Scientology comes first. Scientology comes before the individual, comes before the individual’s family, comes before our current
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justice system or whatever laws. Scientology — I mean, it’s even a high crime to speak at — in Scientology’s laws, it’s a high crime to come before a court and give testimony without first Scientology being — knowing completely what your testimony would be, even if it had nothing to do with Scientology.
So they have different rules and a different standard to operate on. I mean, you know, is it legal? Is it right? Those are different matters. But that’s —
Q Well —
A — the —
Q — when you were in this position, reading these intelligence reports, do you know that if you got a credit report of anyone that had not given you written permission to get their credit report, that that was a federal crime?
A You know, at the time I did not. I personally did not. Because again, this is an area where I was kind of cutting my teeth on, so I was being walked through it and shown how things worked.
Q Who was walking you through it?
A Several people. It started out with David Miscavige kind of bringing me in the loop on this kind of thing and showing me. And the person who would normally be involved in these kind of operations would be Marty Rathbun, so I spent time with him, learning about these things.
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And — and Vicki Aznaran, who had previously had a lot of association in the Guardian’s office, which later became OSA. She was very familiar with the pattern and things that they do. And her husband, Rick Aznaran, who was my junior. He was a person that I used for the physical security of — to ensure the physical security of the Golden Era base of Gilman Hot Springs, which eventually spread to other organizations. But that’s another person who had experience.
Q Did you ever work with Mr. Moxon?
A No.
Q Were you gone before Mr. Moxon came on board?
A I met Mr. — no, I was not. I met Mr. Moxon when — again, I was there in OSA’s formative stages when I actually had the responsibility to put a person in command of it, fill personnel in the legal department, the PR department, the intelligence department, establish it as a organization which then would repeat itself in the other minor organizations within Scientology.
Q So you established the main OSA departments?
A Correct. The main OSA org board. We were there to work on what its organizing board should be, what personnel it should have, what policies it needs to operated on, who it needed to establish lines of communication with.
Q Was OSA still Department 20 like the Guardian’s
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office was?
A Yes.
Q Did it have the same org board as the Guardian’s office?
A You know, I couldn’t — in some respects they did, but I don’t think totally they did, because — and this is kind of how I learned it as we went along. The — the OSA wanted to make sure that they didn’t make the same mistakes as the past Guardian’s Office did. One of the main mistakes that the Guardian’s office made was putting in writing and detailing some of the operations that they did to some of the people that opposed them. An example that is, oh, Paulette Cooper, with, you know, having a person inside with her to affect her in certain ways, you know, and then the next thing you know —
MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to competence. Because he’s talking about something that he wasn’t part of, that supposedly happened in the early ’70s and it can only be based on hearsay.
THE COURT: Well, what does it have to do with this hearing?
MR. DANDAR: It has to do with our defense of extortion against Mr. Minton and the fair game of Mr. Minton causing him to come to this court and lie.
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THE COURT: Okay. And what — who is this woman?
MR. DANDAR: Paulette Cooper.
THE COURT: And how did you find out about Paulette Cooper, since Mr. Weinberg objected?
THE WITNESS: I was briefed about it, and I remember her specifically.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, hold on. That’s my objection. This is just pure unmitigated hearsay.
MR. DANDAR: Not when it comes from a corporate client.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, wait a minute. He was only in this position for — whatever he said — ’85 to early ’87. And if I understand this, he’s now going to recount some supposed incident that happened in the early ’70s before he was even part of —
THE COURT: Within — within the organization to which he was the higher echelon person.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, RTC didn’t even exist back in the early ’70s when this supposedly occurred.
MR. DANDAR: But Department 20 did.
MR. WEINBERG: Could I —
MR. DANDAR: I’m sorry.
THE COURT: You can, but your objection’s going
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to be overruled.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, I’m just making a record.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q How did you find out about Paulette Cooper?
A In 1977, when the FBI raided Scientology headquarters in Los Angeles, they broke into a department called B1, and they removed a lot of files.
Q Scientology department?
A A Scientology department. It was their intelligence branch.One of the problems on the files which led certain people to go to jail — I guess 11 people went to jail over this — was the fact that every operation, including the operation like the LSD in her toothpaste — put LSD in her toothpaste to make it seem like she’s insane, or to lift her fingerprints off a glass and put it on a bomb threat, which she was eventually being prosecuted over — I mean, these things were written in detail of exactly how to do it. And it said on the top who it went to, who approved the program, who executed the program. In other words, details which later came back to bite them severely.
So in putting this new OSA, this new branch there, that had similar functions, but were supposed to operate a
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little differently. These reports came. Again, it said, “Eyes only.” There was no routing as to who it was going to. There was no author. There were just paragraphs which were just summations of different operations that — that Scientology were enacted to discourage people who were in lawsuits against it or critical of it.
Q And then those — what you saw was then destroyed in some way?
A We were — we had to shred it immediately. Part of the new policy — and Vicki Aznaran is one of the people that told me this — everybody had to had a shred. There were only certain designated people these reports were going to. And we had to verify we shredded the reports. But the reports themselves only contained brief statements of the activities, not who were doing the activities or any details like that.
Q Would those activities include picketing, critics?
A No. These — these were different.
I — I’ll give you an example of an activity.There was an organization called CAN, called Awareness Network, that Scientology had apparently been fighting for years. I had no knowledge of it myself, but I would receive a report that there was a deep cover in CAN, listening in on the legal process CAN was involved in, lawsuits and spats with Scientology.
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This person would get privileged information —
MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I object —
A — report it to —
MR. WEINBERG: I —
THE COURT: Excuse me.
MR. WEINBERG: I believe that CAN didn’t exist in 1985 through 1987. What’s Mr. Prince talking about?
MR. DANDAR: Well, that’s good cross examination question.
MR. WEINBERG: Well — but then I object to whatever it is: Hearsay, competence. And he’s up here talking about some organization that, if I’m correct — and I think I am correct — didn’t even exist when he was there. How can he be talking about an intelligence operation with regard to it as if —
THE WITNESS: If you’ll let me finish —
THE COURT: Well, just a minute. NO, you don’t get to talk —
THE WITNESS: Oh.
THE COURT: — until I make a ruling. And we surely do not need help from you. At least, I don’t, in making my ruling.
Now, when did this occur, Mr. Prince?
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THE WITNESS: The specific example that I’m telling you —
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: — are things that I’ve read with my own eyes concerning a group — it was either CAN or something like CAN — that Scientology wanted to get rid of.So a person was placed in there, deep cover —
THE COURT: You are so far ahead of me. Don’t incur my ire, because it’s the afternoon and it’s getting close to 4:00, and that’s bad for you and everybody else.
When did this operation take place, whatever it is you’re talking about? When did it occur?
THE WITNESS: It was either 1984, 1985, 1986.
It would have been somewhere —
I’m giving an example of something that I read within those three years.
THE COURT: Okay. And that’s when it occurred?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And you were in the organization?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And you read it as part of the documents of the organization.
THE WITNESS: No. As part of the envelope that
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would come by, like I explained earlier.
THE COURT: Oh, and you read it on — in what was reported to you.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. WEINBERG: I understand. And I’ll cross examine him if it has to do with CAN.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q So they put an undercover person into this organization?
A Correct.
Q And what was this person doing?
A The person was there as a volunteer to assist the executives of the organization, you know, carry out whatever they were doing. And this organization was an organization similar in some ways to the Leo J. Ryan Foundation, in that anyone from anyplace could call, “I think my kid is in a cult. My daughter’s in a cult. Can you give me information about it?” It was an organization similar to that.
And this person was put in there to divine and be able to turn over to Scientology’s legal team information that would give them an advantage in court.
Q Okay. Now, besides the reporting of intelligence and legal operations, did you have anything to do with the hiring of law firms?
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A Yes. I hired — I can’t tell you how many different law firms abroad, simply for the purpose of filing trademarks. But in the United States, a law — well, an attorney that I hired by the name of Joseph Yanni for RTC —
THE COURT: I know this must be relevant, and I’m sure you can tell me, but what — what is who the law firms were or who was hired —
MR. DANDAR: No. I don’t care who the law firms were.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. DANDAR: I just want to know if that was part of his duties.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINBERG: All right. And to the extent that he’s going to ask Mr. Prince about his discussions with these law firms, that would be privileged.
THE COURT: As to those — those —
MR. WEINBERG: In particular —
THE COURT: — matters — that’s right. During the time that he was in the organization.
MR. WEINBERG: And I assume Mr. Dandar has not talked to Mr. Prince about if Mr. Prince talked to lawyers for the Church of Scientology about —
THE COURT: I don’t want to hear it right now.
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I mean, this is a question-and-answer period. You have an objection, make it.
MR. WEINBERG: That was my objection.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q In addition to just hiring the law firms, would you also direct the litigation?
A Correct.
Q All right. And we’re not going to go into details about how you directed the litigation.
A Or even participated in the direction of it. You know, maybe not me, “Oh, this is my idea. Therefore we’re doing this,” but as a group. It was a group of people. It was, you know — and if there was ever a single decision to be made, it was certainly made by the highest person. But we operated as a group.
Q Who was in the group?
A It was Mr. David Miscavige, myself, Vicki Aznaran, Mark Yeager, Marty Rathbun, Lyman Spurlock, Mark —
THE COURT: It really — I don’t get it yet.
Why I do care how they hire a law firm?
MR. DANDAR: No. This is how they direct the litigation, Judge.
THE COURT: Oh, all right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And was the litigation —
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THE COURT: Well, I hope they do. They hire the law firm, they’re supposed to be in charge of the litigation, right?
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Do you leave it up to the lawyers to decide how to run the litigation?
MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor. Now we are getting into work product as to how it is that the church dealt with their lawyers back in the ’80s.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Did the litigation involve RTC, that this group would meet and discuss, or did it involve any organization of Scientology?
A In one instance it did involve RTC. In other instances it involved CSE, such as the Wollersheim case. So you know, it would — depending on the case —
Q Okay. What I’m asking you is it didn’t — it didn’t concern crossing over corporate lines and involving litigation involving different corporations.
A The — the persons that I named that concerned themselves with litigation concerned themselves with all Scientology litigation, despite what corporation or whatever. These were the people that dealt with litigation
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for Scientology.
Q And there — was there a head of that group?
A Yes.
Q Who?
A David Miscavige.
THE COURT: Are you trying to tell me that David Miscavige is running this lawsuit? Is that what you’re trying to tell me?
MR. DANDAR: Running everything.
THE COURT: Well, I mean in particular are you trying to tell me he’s running this lawsuit?
MR. DANDAR: Yes.
THE COURT: Well, why would I care? I mean, why do I care who’s running the lawsuit?
MR. DANDAR: All right. All right.
THE COURT: I mean, this is — this is a motion to determine whether your case should be dismissed.
MR. DANDAR: It’s leading up to this question.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q You mentioned the Wollersheim case. Can you tell us what activities you personally know about in the Wollersheim case that have anything to do with the destruction of evidence?
A Yes, there is. And I — I’ve done an affidavit about that, and I’m sure it’s filed in this case.
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But there came a point in time where the judge —
as part of a discovery motion, it was ordered that Lawrence Wollersheim’s PC folders get turned over. I remember during one of these requests — and it looked like it was pretty serious that the judge was going to make them turn over these PC folders — that we had to organize — myself, Vicki Aznaran and other people had to go through the files and redact them by taking out incriminating information, what was considered to be incriminating information against Scientology or anything that could be misunderstood and could then become incriminating. We went through and we redacted files. And then when defense complained and — about the files being redacted and the judge ordered the files just simply turned over straight out, those files were destroyed. They were pulped.
Q What do you mean by pulped?
A They were taken to a paper factory. They were loaded into a — they were shredded, loaded into a solution and turned into a fiber.
THE COURT: Who ordered them destroyed?
THE WITNESS: At the time that I destroyed those documents, the order came to me from Vicki Aznaran, who received it from David Miscavige.
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BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Were there — was this a — destruction of evidence — was it pursuant to policy established in the Church of Scientology?
A Well, the old overriding policy in Scientology is to protect Scientology; to make it — you know, protect it in any way and to cultivate it and — of course, something that would harm it —
THE COURT: Where is that written? I mean, everything here in policy is in a document written down somewhere. Where is it?
THE WITNESS: There’s a policy letter called Keeping Scientology Working.
THE COURT: Okay. And that’s in evidence and I have that, so that’s — you’re suggesting that is part of the Keeping Scientology Working —
THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am.
THE COURT: — policy.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Any other policy besides that one?
A Of protecting Scientology, there’s Safeguarding Technology. I believe that’s a HCO policy letter and a bulletin. There’s policies concerning — Well, I — that’s what readily comes to mind. That’s what I mentioned.
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MR. DANDAR: Okay.
THE COURT: The relevance of this testimony is because you’re going to ask me to believe that Mr. Miscavige directed that the PC folders of Lisa McPherson be destroyed.
MR. DANDAR: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Or at least in part be pulped.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Are you familiar with —
THE COURT: Pulped. Destroyed in some fashion.
MR. DANDAR: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: Just so the record is clear, we turned over the PC folders.
THE COURT: Well, I understand. But he is testifying, and so did they in the Wollersheim case, that they turned over what they wanted to turn over after all the damaging stuff was taken out and pulped. I’m not saying that’s true; I’m saying that’s the testimony. Maybe it is true. I’m not saying it’s not either.
MR. WEINBERG: Well, in this particular case, Mr. Dandar has used the PC folders he believes affirmatively to indicate it supports his case. I
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mean, we turned over volumes of PC folders of Lisa McPherson.
THE COURT: I can guarantee you did. If this testimony has any relevance at all, the only relevance it could possibly have is that this witness as an expert is going to tell us that Lisa McPherson’s PC folders are not intact. Is that right?
MR. DANDAR: Yes. That was my next question.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q I had you review Lisa McPherson’s PC folders, correct?
A Correct.
Q And you did that with Stacy Brooks, right?
A Correct. In part, yes.
Q And did you — did you find her 1995 —
Well, actually, you looked at — you did a general review of ’95, ’94 and ’93, correct?
A I believe that’s correct. I mean, I don’t remember. But I certainly did an affidavit that laid out exactly what years I covered and what —
THE COURT: Why don’t you let the man have his affidavit while he’s testifying?
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BY MR. DANDAR: Q Let me show you the 12-page affidavit dated in this case — April 4th, 2000 —
A Okay.
MR. DANDAR: Next exhibit number.
THE COURT: I think this may be in evidence, but maybe not.
MR. WEINBERG: I don’t think so.
THE COURT: Oh, okay.
MR. DANDAR: 108.
MR. WEINBERG: Affidavit — it’s your new 108.
Is that what it is?
MR. DANDAR: Yeah. I — what did I do —
Oh, Judge, let me give you the clerk’s copy. Well, I better give you your copy and I’ll give the witness the clerk’s copy. Then I’ll be left without a copy. Here. Take this one.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: Oh, no. This isn’t — I’ve never seen this before.
MR. WEINBERG: If I’m not mistaken, this is under seal.
THE COURT: Well, really, there isn’t much under seal —
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Well, this is part of the PC folders.
MR. WEINBERG: I think because of the PC folders.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q First of all, Mr. Prince, you said you were a class 9 auditor in Scientology?
A Correct.
Q You audit people who are members of the Church of Scientology?
A Yes, I have.
Q Both staff and public?
A Correct.
Q Of course, you’re not going to tell us what you did in the auditing. I’m not asking that. But who are some of the more famous people you audited?
MR. WEINBERG: Objection to that. He shouldn’t — I object to him talking about auditing famous — quote, famous people. I mean, the St. Pete Times is here. Has nothing to do with the proceeding. If Mr. Prince has audited some famous person, what’s that got to do with this proceeding?
THE COURT: Well, you know, the truth of this matter is, I remember seeing something in this lawsuit that was filed that said he audited David Miscavige.
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MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
THE COURT: I think that would have some bearing, that Mr. Miscavige would trust — or Mr. Miscavige would trust this man to audit the head of the church.
MR. WEINBERG: I don’t think that’s where Mr. Dandar was going.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: I think what Mr. Dandar was trying to do was get some famous person’s name, who has been audited, much like a priest gave somebody confession, and just put it out there so that we can read about it tomorrow. And I don’t think that’s appropriate and I don’t think it’s relevant.
THE COURT: Well, you know what I think? That at issue in this particular case is whether Mr. Prince is qualified as an expert, his credentials and everything about it. If he was — I don’t know who picks an auditor, whether he decides who he wants to audit or whether someone hired him — and there weren’t too many when he was there — made that choice. And if they chose him to do a famous person, I would think that showed they had confidence —
MR. WEINBERG: But isn’t that the person’s — I
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mean, talking about what Mr. Dandar talks about — privacy right, as to — as to who it was that — and when it was that he was talking to a minister of the Church of Scientology —
THE COURT: I didn’t hear anybody say when and I didn’t hear anybody say what they said. What I heard him ask was, who did he audit? I know of no privilege at all —
I mean, are these people not proud to be members of the Church of Scientology?
MR. WEINBERG: I think they are, but I think they would prefer that there not be testimony from Mr. Prince, who they don’t have a high regard for, you know, at this point, given —
THE COURT: Well —
MR. WEINBERG: — given what Mr. Prince has done over the last — whenever it is — four or five or six years —
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. WEINBERG: That’s my objection.
THE COURT: Your objection is overruled.
A The fact of the matter is — is as far as Scientology celebrities are concerned, I’ve never audited one. I’ve been a case supervisor for them. I’ve supervised their folders. I’ve reviewed and ordered corrections on
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their files. But I’ve never audited any Scientology celebrity.
THE COURT: See? Wasn’t that a big bunch of hooey over nothing?
MR. WEINBERG: I guess my question is, why did he ask the question?
THE COURT: I have no idea. But I had to listen a lot longer to him and your objection than I had to listen to him saying no one.
MR. WEINBERG: That’s true.
THE COURT: Is this Number 108, by the way? I can’t read your writing.
MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
THE COURT: 105? 108. Okay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Who are one of the celebrities you case supervised, Mr. Prince?
THE COURT: I must need a break because I can tell I’m getting cranky. So we’ll be in recess for 15 minutes. We’ll be in recess.
(A recess was taken at 3:30 p.m.)
(The proceedings reconvened at 3:46 p.m.)
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dandar, continue.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q So as a case supervisor, can you give us a couple
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names of the famous celebrities you case supervised?
A I’ve done case supervision, training exercises, training with John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Karen Black. I don’t know. I mean, there isn’t a one of them that I haven’t, because I specifically ran a project to ensure that the auditing of the celebrities were going well.
Q When was this?
A This was again during the same time period I mentioned before, from I guess 1983 through ’87.
Q Did you audited (sic) Mr. Miscavige?
A Yes. I was his personal auditor for a while.
Q How long?
A Maybe a year, year and a half. Maybe a couple of years.
Q What couple of years was that?
A Oh, I’d say, you know, through ’84, ’85, I audited him; ’86 I audited him. So it’s a longer period of time, actually. Maybe three years.
Q Okay. Did he have other auditors?
A Yes.
Q And he selected you and the other auditors or somehow he gets assigned or rotated or anything like that?
A I was selected to be his auditor by the senior case supervisor international, Ray Mithoff.
Q And were you in RTC at the time?
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A Yes.
THE COURT: Senior case supervisor, did you say?
THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am. Yes, your Honor.
Senior case supervisor international.
THE COURT: Yeah. Okay.
THE WITNESS: He would be the highest case supervisor within Scientology.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And how was your relationship with Mr. Miscavige until you left in ’87 — I’m sorry — until you left — you changed your post of deputy inspector general?
A Well, shortly after that, there was a big power struggle. And I’ve also certainly written about that and spoke about that. But there was a power struggle in 1987 where I was forcibly removed. However I remained in the Sea Org for five years after that.
Q And of course, Mr. Miscavige was the captain of the Sea Org for those five years, correct?
A Sure.
MR. DANDAR: Judge, at this time I’d like to play a video clip. It’s nine minutes long.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. DANDAR: Of Mr. Prince inside Scientology.
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MR. WEINBERG: Do you have a transcript?
MR. DANDAR: There’s no transcript.
This is a copy from a copy from a copy, so it’s not the best quality.
THE COURT: Do the best you can.
MR. DANDAR: Should we dim some lights?
MR. WEINBERG: Can we date this?
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Mr. Prince, do you know when this speech was given?
A Yes, I do.
Q When?
A It was December 31st, 1986.
Q Okay.
(The videotape, Jesse Prince at New Year’s, 1986, was played as follows:)
THE COURT: 1996?”– discuss expansion, legal victories and acknowledge top contributing members. “Thank you. Thank you very much.
“Next area we wanted to brief you on were the activities and wins from the Religious Technology Center in 1986. As I’m sure you’re all aware, the Religious Technology Center owns the trademarks of Dianetics and Scientology, and their job is really
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to see that Scientology is applied as LRH intended. Keeping Scientology Working. Along with that, they have started new activities, expansion activities at Scientology, opening up new fronts to Scientology, new countries to Scientology, and seeing that not only is the tech applied correctly, but in some instances seeing that it starts being applied for the first time.
“The speaker we have this evening has been in the Religious Technology Center for four years. In fact, he’s a deputy inspector general. Please welcome Commander Jesse Prince.
“Thank you.
“Thank you.
“Well, good evening. And it’s a pleasure to be with you tonight as we welcome in AD37.
“I want to brief you on some of the highlights of 1986 as we made some breakthroughs in the areas of terminating and handling squirreling and the expansion of Scientology and keeping Scientology working, which I think you’ll all find of interest.
“Squirrel groups are by themselves a rather simple thing to handle. As per HCO spec letter of 27 September, 1965, Internal dissension is what tears these splinter groups apart, formed by people
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who’s overt acts against Scientology prevent case gain. They rapidly rip one another to pieces. So even if one took no action at all because of their own ability to keep ethics in on themselves, these squirrels always disappear.
“But the real key to it is to handle any squirrels and squirreling so that they are terminatedly handled. To do that takes a no-nonsense and a nonapologetic attitude about who and what we are, and an unstoppable dedication to the preservation of the technology.
“This year, the Religious Technology Center undertook several courses of action designed to shut the door forever on squirreling of any kind, whether it is on the upper-level materials of Scientology, the lower levels, against the copyrights, or even the right to license and control of the trademarks of Dianetics and Scientology.
“First, as you may remember, in 1985 we won an order from a federal court in Los Angeles that prevented certain squirrels and psychs from using, copying or even having the noisy materials.
“Well, in 1986 we actually took this a step further. This year, the noisy materials were officially copyrighted, and we took this
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breakthrough to the federal court in this lawsuit. We got a green light — of course, against the squirrels’ protest — to add yet another account to the lawsuit for the squirrels’ violations of our copyrights. Now legally this means the squirrels cannot have any unauthorized originals or copies of our upper-level materials at all without being prosecuted under copyright law. And I assure you that any squirrels committing that crime, abusing our materials, will be prosecuted.
“You see, we take a very hard line with those few ill-intentioned small thetans that would attempt to pervert our tech, as for them, to see others become, or better more able, threatens their tiny little beingness. It’s just that simple.
“The reason we take a very hard line in enforcing our trademarks, copyrights and the purity of the tech and its application was very succinctly stated by LRH in Keeping Scientology Working. And I quote, ‘The whole agonized future of this planet, every man, woman and child on it, and your own destiny for the next trillions of years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology.’
“This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting off the tread now, we may never again
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have another chance.
“The next area to handle was the area of the lower-level materials, which are also protected by copyright. In both the United Kingdom and Europe we found instances of squirrels who thought that they could get away with copying and using various — various of our lower-level materials. In both cases, these squirrels were sued, and in both cases, the squirrel immediately asked for a settlement on our terms completely.
“Now, the final settlement papers contain some strong language that can be used from this point forward to show that the courts around the world will not put up with attempts to steal, use LRH tech in an unauthorized manner. There is however another side to this battle that is actually very fortunate for us. And that is, in HCO PL, 21 November, 1972, issue 1, LRH states, ‘The basic characteristic of extreme madness is perpetual attack. Attacks on anything. Attacks on persons or things which contain no menace. Extreme, not petty crime, is at the root of such an impulse.’
“You see —
“I’ll say it again: ‘Extreme, not petty crime, is at the root of such an impulse.’
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“And we have a handling for that. Because this obviously works to our advantage. Many squirrels wound up inside a jail in 1986 and many others are being prosecuted. Their crimes range from robbery to drunken driving and resisting arrest to contempt of court to manufacturing drugs. As we move into the new year, it is important to understand why we will always walk away winners and why our enemies will ultimately end up the losers.
“In 1965, LRH explained this. He said, ‘The basic purpose of orgs is to implement Scientology. Scientology is prior to purposes. Explaining them and handling them, it is of course senior to all purposes and indeed the universe. It simply is life. And being life itself, it has a far greater power than any activity, depending upon purpose alone. That is why people are so happy with it and why groups founded on mere purposes are quite afraid of Scientology. For it is unconsciously realized that life itself, alone, can make and unmake purposes and rise superior to all formulas and actions.'”
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Mr. Prince, in that video you said something about having settlements with people, and they — they — they beg
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or they want to settle. Do you recall that?
A Yes, I do.
Q What did you mean by that?
A Well, I can really only relate that to specific examples.
There was a — a person named Robert Scott who put on a Navy uniform — who put on a Navy uniform similar to the Navy uniforms that were used by Scientology at the time, walked into its top organization in AOSEU — AOSHEU. I hate to keep saying that. But he walked in there, and he demanded a copy of NED 4 OTs so he could use that to review folders, and he took this material and he walked out the door. One thing that I did in my department was to arrange for someone in Denmark, who seemingly wanted to pay a high price for these materials — arranged for him to negotiate a price with that person, and then to fly over to Denmark with a copy of the materials to exchange for money, when in fact what had been set up was, the instant he got off the airplane, to be arrested. And years later, I went back to his house and threatened him even more on that particular issue after he was — got out of jail — I think he was in there for a month — and basically just let him know that we intended on taking everything that he had, and his only salvation was to
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cooperate with us.
Q Did he cooperate with you?
A Eventually he did, yes.
Q And did you — in what manner did he cooperate with you?
A He — I think even in my own hand I may have gotten him to sign something, because I think he had a countersuit. And I’m just doing this from memory, of course. My former colleagues will be able to provide more information. But he had a counterclaim, I believe. I got him to agree to drop the counterclaim. I agreed with him to drop our lawsuit against him if he listed for us everyone that the materials went to, gave us all copies. And he had a castle called Kendegrade Castle in Scotland.
(A discussion was held off the record.)
A But we were in Scotland at the time, and he had this magnificent castle, and I told him he would certainly lose the castle as part of these negotiations, because there was some financial consideration as well in the settlement.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And did he lose the castle?
A Yes.
Q Did the Church of Scientology take it?
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A I think the castle was sold and they may have gotten money from it.
Q Have you ever been involved in any operation where the Church of Scientology went after attorneys?
A Yes. I’ve been in a couple of instances of that.
My first memory of it happening, again, was in the Wollersheim case. This is during the period of time where I’m kind of being broken in. I’m kind of cutting my teeth on these areas. While I was talking with Marty — I was in a room with Marty and Dave and Vicki, and we were just kind of laughing and talking. And Marty mentioned that Charles O’Reilly — they had followed him to some club after a hearing or something. And I guess they were having drinks and a meal. And a private investigator by the name Gene Ingram apparently had hired a thug or somebody to physically beat up the attorney there, Charles O’Reilly.
Gary Bright, who was an attorney, I think, on — on one of the Wollersheim cases — we had a deep cover in the Advance Ability Center, which was located in Santa Barbara. He would come there to have meetings with his client. And our deep cover was also a trusted person by the client, so that person would have privileged information. That person was the senior SCS international’s brother, Bob Mithoff, who was a deep cover. There were actually three deep covers that we had in there, Bob being the most effective and the most trusted. And privileged information would be taken, financial information would be taken, legal strategies would be known and, you know, used against them.
Q You’re talking about Mr. Wollersheim, is that right?
A In this last instance, yes, that’s right, the Wollersheim.
Q Okay. Any other attorneys or any other cases that you personally have knowledge of while you were inside the Church of Scientology?
A You know, I don’t remember anything specific, but I do know that part of it would be to always create complaints that could be submitted to the bar against opposing counsel.
Q Do you have personal knowledge about that?
A You know, I’m going to say, as I sit here today, that I don’t remember specifically who the attorney was or —
Q All right.
A I can’t say that.
THE COURT: In your video you kept referring to the term — which is — happens to be new to this hearing — which is squirrel group and squirreling.
What is that?
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THE WITNESS: Your Honor, squirreling is a term created by L. Ron Hubbard to mean that anyone that is using Scientology in an unauthorized matter (sic) and is also not using it strictly as it is written.
THE COURT: It could be somebody within or without.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: So someone using the tech, is that it; someone using the tech improperly?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
MR. DANDAR: All right. Rather than mark all this as separate exhibits, your Honor, I’d like to mark the next document as a composite so it would speed things up.
What number would that be? 109?
THE CLERK: Yes.
MR. DANDAR: Okay. Handing the witness the clerk’s copy, Plaintiff’s 109.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Can you identify the first page of 109, Mr. Prince?
A Yes, I can. This is HCO executive letter written in 1966. Apparently parts of it were written by a person named Kathy and the other author is L. Ron Hubbard.
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Q And what is a noisy investigation?
AThis is an intelligence operation that is done to discourage; to harass and discourage. An example — they give a pretty clear example I think right here.
But another example of that could be to go around to a person’s neighbors, past business associates, ex-girlfriends, anyone that would have a bone to pick, and make allegations about the person, and ask them, “Well, did you know that he stole the blue ball on the 17th of whatever, and he — he’s doing this, and he’s really a bad person; and do you know anything he’s done?” And an investigator will systematically go through persons associated with the target to create this air of alarm and hysteria, basically.
Q When you were the deputy inspector general, receiving reports from OSA intelligence, do you know — did you see reports on noisy investigations of people opposed by Scientology?
A Yes.
Q And — now, this is an HCO executive letter, 1966. Was that still being practiced when you were deputy inspector general?
A Everything that is written by L. Ron Hubbard and is actually in a published form. Like this is a timeless
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piece to be followed for eternity. So it’s kind of like the Bible, you know? The Bible was written a couple of thousand years ago but people still stick to that.
In that regard and only in that regard is there a similarity in that these things are held sacred and forever.
Q Did you observe any noisy investigation of Bob Minton?
A Yes.
Q What — give us some examples.
A Well, the most vivid one that comes to mind is an operation that was done on his best friend, Jeff Schmidt, who he had apparently started a company with. Scientology found out about Jeff Schmidt through its investigation of Bob Minton.
MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: How do you know about this?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I was there and I spoke with Jeff Schmidt and Robert Minton. We were in the financial district in London. And he made it very clear to me what Scientology had done. And he was in the process of packing up his office to move out of the country.
THE COURT: I’m going to allow it. It — it is hearsay. You’re right. It’s hearsay. But for the purpose of this hearing, I’m going to allow —
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there’s a lot of hearsay in this hearing.
MR. WEINBERG: I know. I just — you know, you —
THE COURT: Right. And it is hearsay, and it’ll be taken as hearsay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And Jeff Schmidt was Bob Minton’s business partner?
A Correct.
Q And what happened to him?
A He eventually disassociated himself from Bob Minton from fear of losing his business practice. He basically couldn’t stand a threat –What he told me specifically is that a Scientology investigator came to him and asked him to either provide or show them how to create information to get Bob Minton; in other words, to get him in legally, to get him involved in law enforcement, on the bad end of law enforcement. And Jeff Schmidt said that he was refusing to do it, and had had many negotiations with this private investigator. Finally his office was broken into and materials were taken out of the office, and at that point, that’s when Bob and I flew over there to discuss, “Well, okay. What was taken? What does this mean? What can be done?”
Q Do you know where that information ended up?
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A I do not.
Q Did Jeff Schmidt — was he Mr. Minton’s partner in the Nigerian deal?
A Yes, he was, along with a person, I think, named Miselan (phonetic).
Q And do you know if they made a little bit of money on that deal, or a lot?
MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. I mean, again, Mr. Prince is now being asked what Mr. Minton made on the Nigerian deal, based on a conversation, apparently, with Mr. Minton’s former partner. I mean —
THE COURT: And Mr. Minton.
MR. WEINBERG: And/or Mr. Minton.
He had the opportunity to ask Mr. Minton this stuff if he wanted to.
MR. DANDAR: And I believe Mr. Minton — well —
MR. WEINBERG: No, he didn’t. He said he didn’t think he did anything wrong in Nigeria.
THE COURT: I’m going to allow it. Overruled.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Just —
A Mr. Minton never disclosed to me the exact figure of how much money he made from doing the debt buyback for the government of Nigeria.
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BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And did Mr. Minton go to Howard University and explain to the Nigerian professors and students about what his Nigerian buyback program was all about?
A Yes. This was again a private investigator working on behalf of Scientology in Nigeria, started spreading this idea that something illegal had happened in the debt buyback; that somehow Bob had absconded with maybe a billion dollars or some other thing, or some other crooked regime. And they used a soccer star, John Fashanu. Feds — the — the investigator said this to Fashanu. Fashanu then used his connections. And he was paid to go around doing this noisy investigation stuff, by, number one, spreading false allegations, allegations that couldn’t be proven.
And this finally culminated — I met with a government official from Nigeria in Leipzig, Germany — I guess it was in 2001. I guess it was in 2001. And it was decided at that point that John Fashanu and his people would show up at Howard University in D.C. and we would debate this and Bob would explain to all concerned, Howard professional students and Howard professors who were familiar with the economic scene in Nigeria — I guess some people were upset about that because there is some
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criminality over there.
But we set it up to be in a hall in Washington, D.C. And strangely enough, John Fashanu never showed up. But I sat in a meeting with those Nigerian people at that university for many hours as Bob went through a stack of paper like this, showing them exactly how the deal was done, who was involved, how much debt buyback they did; what was their percentage of the company; how that was split. I mean, he took the time to go through this very painstakingly —
THE COURT: This must be — this must have been videotaped by Mr. Bunker, is that true?
THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am.
THE COURT: Because it’s all on videotape and it’s all going to be turned over pursuant to the court order. If you want a copy of it, you can get it. You can get it.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q My question is, did the false allegations against Mr. Minton by Scientology on the Nigerian deal — how did Mr. Minton react to those allegations?
A He was very disturbed by it, greatly upset. He was upset over the fact that he had — was in the process of losing his best, best friend, who he had been in business with many years, Jeff Selman (sic), who was afraid of Scientology’s power and influence.
Q Wait a minute. Jeff Selman?
A Jeff —
Q Schmidt.
A — Schmidt.
I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m talking too fast. He was very upset about that. He was very upset about them contacting his other partner in South Africa whose name was Selman. And Bob Minton was disturbed over the fact that he knew that there was corruption itself in Nigeria, and if you paid enough money around, you could kind of get any kind of trouble started you wanted.
Q Are you aware of any kind of trouble that was started with Nigeria in reference to the Swiss government?
A I know that certain allegations were brought in Nigeria. And the private investigator working on Scientology’s behalf did go to Switzerland, talked to prosecutors, talked to law enforcement, and to use whatever sway or ability that they had to try to get charges brought against Bob in —
MR. WEINBERG: Can we just identify the source of your information?
THE WITNESS: Of which — which —
MR. WEINBERG: You just said that investigators and all this did this in Switzerland. And I just
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would — I ask, your Honor, for the source of it.
THE WITNESS: Oh, I’m sorry. Bob Minton.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And did Bob Minton —
THE COURT: It’s all in Stacy Brooks’ time line.
MR. DANDAR: Yes.
MR. WEINBERG: I know.
THE COURT: I mean, it’s all in evidence already.
MR. DANDAR: But this man’s under oath.
THE COURT: Yeah. I know. And that’s why I’m allowing it. I mean, it’s all in evidence.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And did Mr. Minton — how did he react to a private investigator making contact with the Swiss prosecutor?
A He was shocked. He — his — his — you know, I think Mr. Minton approached at least some of his dealings with Scientology in a bit of a naive way. He couldn’t conceptualize the fact that this could possibly happen to him. He couldn’t conceptualize that somehow he would be fighting for his credibility, his standing in the different countries and communities that he had done successful business with, to now have to go back and — and kind of
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resolve things all over again.
Q What period of time was it when you or Mr. Minton first realized that there was a private investigator contacting the Swiss prosecutors?
A You know, from my recollection, I remember maybe late 2000, 2001, early 2001, there was an incident where the prosecutors in Switzerland had been contacted. Bob hired an attorney or whoever to represent himself. The situation was sorted out. But then it came up again.
Q When?
A I think this is after the Howard University — either shortly before or right after, to the best of my recollection.
Q Is that 2001?
A Yes.
Q And was there anything else besides the Nigerian and the Swiss prosecutors — was there anything else that came to your attention concerning Bob Minton being — having a noisy investigation done of him by Scientology?
A Yes. There’s another instances of it. Bob had a interest or stock or something in a car dealership. I believe it was in Boston. And Scientology investigators went around and spoke to the principals at the car dealership. And at the end of that, they no longer wanted to do business with Mr. Minton. They didn’t feel
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like it was safe. It was putting the company in jeopardy to have investigators running around making these sorts of allegations. And so he lost that business venture.
Q That was a Lexus dealership, correct?
A Correct.
Q It wasn’t some old used car lot on the corner.
A No.
MR. WEINBERG: Just for the record, is all this based on conversations with Mr. Minton?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, it is.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And how did Mr. Minton feel about losing his partnership in a Lexus dealership in New England?
A He just broke down and cried. He was like, how is it possible to live in a country like America and not be able to stop this, to turn this off in some way?
Q What about any other noisy investigations?
A I guess they went to his mother’s house and basically told his mother that he’s crazy and needed to be incarcerated, and to somehow get the family together to try to get some kind of incarceration going, or at least get that idea going something was seriously wrong with Bob.
Q Did you know that Mr. Minton’s father had placed him, I think when he was 16, for a few days in a mental institution of some kind?
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A Yes. He — he told me about that.
Q So how did Mr. Minton react to Scientology going to his mother and trying to get her and the family to put Mr. Minton incarcerated in a mental institution?
A He was very upset about that. He was — his viewpoint was, you know, “If they don’t like me, then talk to me, but don’t go to my family.” You know, I guess his mother’s in a rest home. She’s actually quite old and would probably never understand these things if you explained it to her for 10 years. And he didn’t see the — it was just pure harassment, intimidation.
Q Did he just get mad about it or did he get excited about it or did he get depressed about it?
A Well, Bob would consult attorneys. He would — I mean, I’ve met almost as many attorneys with Bob as I did with Scientology. I mean, it was always having — Helen Dorr (phonetic), when he would go up there, “This is what they’ve done now. They’ve gone to my mother. They’ve done this. They’ve done that. Is there anything else I can do? Can law enforcement somehow become involved? Will someone open up an investigation to –” and of course, nothing.
So Bob’s answer to do something was to picket.He’s like, “Okay. They keep doing this stuff, they want to do this stuff, I’m going to picket. I’m going to picket. I’m going to make a sign.” Because that was his last line
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of defense. That was the last thing that he could legally do to say, “Hey, look, I don’t like what you’re doing and I’m showing it.”
Q Did Bob Minton — how long have you known Bob Minton?
A Since the summer of 1998.
Q Okay. Since the summer of 1998 until today, has Bob Minton ever picketed and told you or anyone in your hearing, “Let’s go picket so we can help Ken Dandar win the Lisa McPherson death case”?
A No. Bob — no. When he — a lot of — often –more often than not when he would get on these things that he wanted to picket, it was in response to something that was specifically — that he perceived was being done against him by Scientology.
Q How did Bob Minton react when his daughters were followed back to or from school in boston?
MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form of the question. Mr. Dandar is testifying.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. DANDAR: Sustained. I agree with that, Judge.
THE COURT: Well, good. I’m glad you do.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Did you ever hear about Bob Minton expressing any
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statement concerning his daughters being followed?
A Yes. He told me that his — his daughters and his wife had gone out, I think, to the theater or something or — or some school event or something, and they were followed. And when they came home, their neighborhood was papered with fliers that were distributed about him having some —
THE COURT: You know, I’m wondering why we are hearing this hearsay. A lot of this just confirms what Mr. Minton has already testified to.
MR. DANDAR: Oh, Mr. Minton said he would just get angry; he wasn’t afraid; he wasn’t concerned; he wasn’t depressed.
THE COURT: Okay. Well, then, how he responded — we don’t need to have Mr. Prince relate what Mr. Minton has already related.
MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q How did Mr. Minton respond —
THE COURT: At least I don’t think. Now, obviously, you can bring in hearsay for impeachment if Mr. Minton told him something different from what he said in court.
MR. DANDAR: That’s what —
THE COURT: But I think much of what we’ve gone
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over here is stuff that Mr. Minton has said the same thing.
MR. DANDAR: My intention is to see if there’s something different, what he told Mr. Prince compared to what he told you.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. DANDAR: And I’m trying to — I’ll do it quicker, though.
THE COURT: Well, I hope you know — and if, you know, you don’t really have to let me hear it all. Just let me hear what’s different if there is anything different.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Okay. Did Mr. Minton express to you that he was concerned when his one daughter was followed to a girlfriend’s house in Long Island?
MR. WEINBERG: It’s the same objection.
A Yes, he did.
MR. WEINBERG: He’s testifying again. You know, “When — such — such and such happened.” I mean, that’s just testifying.
MR. DANDAR: I’m trying to make it a little faster.
THE COURT: Yeah. I’m going to —
MR. WEINBERG: He can ask him what his reaction
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was to whatever it was that he told you.
MR. DANDAR: All right. Well, then, I’ll ask more questions so this will go longer. But okay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Did Mr. Minton tell you about his daughter being followed to Long Island?
A Yes, he did.
Q And how did Mr. Minton — did he tell you how — what he thought about that?
A He — he called me on the phone and he said, “Jesse, you won’t believe what they’re doing now. They’re going after my daughters.” “Oh. What happened?” “Well, she was followed,” or, “They papered the neighborhood,” or, you know, “They’re passing leaflets out. They’re talking to their friends,” his daughter’s associates, parents, or different people, you know, and just kind of doing their noisy investigation. And this was apparently quite upsetting to his wife, Therese, who would always — Bob said she would ask, “Well, what are you going to do about it? Well, this can’t happen. How do you make this stop?”
Q So —
A So he had a lot of pressure.
Q Okay. Did he ever — after all of these noisy investigations, did Bob Minton ever appear to you to be a tough guy about it or not a tough guy?
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A Well, in the beginning he seemed to be quite a tough guy. But as it — as it progressed — I mean, that — that time track that was submitted as an — as an exhibit, those were instances where we actually could find some type of documentation that proved what the time track said.
There are many instances where things happened where we couldn’t have or find the documentation. So for anyone to — to have that much done to them, I mean, even in my time I have never seen such a concerted effort to destroy an individual.
Q That time line, did you help put it together?
A I — I have — yes, I did.
Q Okay. And have you read the entire time line?
A I’m sure I have at some point.
Q And when you read the time line, was it accurate?
A Yes, it was.
Q Now, go back to Exhibit 109 —
MR. WEINBERG: Objection to that. Accurate based on conversations with somebody? He just said this time line, which we all know was —
THE COURT: Very, very thick.
MR. WEINBERG: — exaggerated —
THE COURT: Yeah. Most of that would have been through hearsay information.
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BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Was it — was it accurate through what Mr. Minton told you?
A Well — well, again, I will just state for the record that the information that was put in that time line was information that could be substantiated in other ways. So there is many things that couldn’t be substantiated. Therefore, it’s not there. But everything that was there, the intent was to be able to substantiate everything there with documentation.
Q So Mr. Minton told you there are more things that happened to him that are not in the time line?
A Sure. I mean, and I’ve witnessed it myself.
Q Like what?
A One time he invited me to New Hampshire — I think it was maybe the 4th of July. The 4th of July. We were up there; myself, Mr. Minton, his wife, Therese, his children. We were having a barbecue in the back. Scientologists came in their cars, started picketing and screaming from the road, “Where’s Stacy?” You know, this is one thing that they really liked to do; tell — make sure that Bob’s wife knew that he was having an affair with Stacy Brooks.
Q Well, she knew, didn’t she?
A Yes, she did.
Q So they’re yelling this in front of the children.
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A Correct.
Q What else would they yell besides, “Where’s Stacy?”
A That he was crazy.
There came a point in time where somehow they were able to get some of his psychiatric information from his psychiatrists and speak to him about that. And I mean at first Mr. Minton was just amazed that these could even happen; that it was even possible for an organization or an individual or any — for this to be able to happen to a citizen in America. But then again, as time went on, he wore down more and more and more, I guess. The threat became — I mean, he was just spending so much money defending himself in, you know, three or four countries at one time.
Q Now, let me — since you mentioned psychiatric records, let me jump — let me jump to August — well, June — August of 2001. Do you recall Mr. Minton being upset about records that were put on the Internet, with his wife, his children and himself?
A Yes.
Q What type of records?
A His counseling records from seeing a psychiatrist; I guess information about what kind of medication he had been taking and this kind of thing.
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Q And did you talk to him about that?
A Yes, I did.
Q And was he scheduled to appear in a deposition in Clearwater the next day?
A I think we’re talking about two separate incidents.
Q Okay. Which one are you talking about?
A Something that preceded the hearing that had to happen in Clearwater.
Q Okay. I’m talking about a deposition —
A Okay.
Q — all right?
Are you aware that he was ordered to appear, in the breach case in Clearwater, for deposition taken by Mr. Rosen?
A Yes.
Q All right. Are you aware that he did — he failed to appear?
A Yes.
Q All right. Did he tell you why he failed to appear?
A Yes, he did.
Q And what did he say?
A Mr. Minton didn’t have a lot of confidence in the justice system as it was being administered in Florida here.
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He felt that as far as discovery was concerned, that they were able to pretty much get away with murder. And he knew that Scientology was not going to stop until he was completely eliminated as an — as an individual. I mean, part of their policy is to, if possible, of course, ruin the person utterly.
THE COURT: Was he concerned —
MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor?
THE COURT: — about that or was he concerned about the fact that the discovery was going to uncover the fact that he had illegal — or he had bank accounts outside of this country and money that was coming into this country that he wasn’t paying taxes on?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, he may have had that as a consideration, but it wasn’t anything that I was personally aware of.
THE COURT: Well, what was it about the fact that the church was going to find this out or that the fact that the — that the courts were allowing the church to pursue discovery based on their allegations in the counterclaim that had Mr. Minton so upset?
THE WITNESS: Mr. Minton said that he felt that if he came to Florida, that he was going to go to
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jail. He had been being told that he was going to jail. He — he —
THE COURT: It was because he was the one that was thumbing his nose at the justice system in the state of Florida, wasn’t it?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, ma’am.
THE COURT: It’s because he was the one coming down here and saying that — he was just acting like a jerk in his discovery depositions, flaunting himself at the justice system, taking the Fifth Amendment when he’d already published it on the Internet, and expecting, I suppose, that we were so stupid that we wouldn’t know enough that he’d waived it. And then, of course, when the judges said that he had indeed waived it and he could no longer hide behind the Fifth Amendment, that he started getting real worried, didn’t he?
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: He became —
THE COURT: Because the church and therefore the courts were going to get pretty knowledgeable about what he had, moneywise —
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: — overseas.
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THE WITNESS: Correct. And here in the United States.
He was concerned that if Scientology was allowed to have access to his different bank accounts, that he would end up fighting another war with Scientology as he did with the John Fashanu fiasco, and he was just tired of it.
THE COURT: Did he talk to you about — it wasn’t any — it wasn’t any secret, was it, that Mr. Minton was a multi-millionaire?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Everybody knew that.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: He doled out millions of dollars to fight Scientology.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: Came into court pretty proud, throwing out over $10 million. And everybody knew that, right?
THE WITNESS: Well, I didn’t know that it had been that much, your Honor, myself.
THE COURT: Okay. But I mean, he had doled out —
THE WITNESS: Millions.
THE COURT: — millions.
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THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And everybody knew he had doled out millions.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: So the fact that this Church of Scientology was getting ready to find out that he had doled out millions —
THE WITNESS: Well, you know, there’s another aspect to this, your Honor. And the aspect is this: Bob Minton, in his mind, always tried to keep his family separate from his activities. He was ready to exhaust every personal resource that he had for himself to keep the fight going, but he was not willing to risk that for his wife and his children.
And so when the wife and children became a factor I guess something happened.
THE COURT: I don’t have any qualms about your talking about the fact that Mr. Minton was upset about his medical records being put on the Internet; I don’t have any qualms about your saying Mr. Minton was upset about his children being followed, about his business associates being contacted and what have you. I have no doubt that he was upset about that and what have you.
But as far as his being upset with the justice
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system in the state of Florida, the reason I’m upset about that is because Mr. Minton himself is what caused many of his own problems, right?
THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am.
THE COURT: And then when it looked like they were going to find out some stuff that was really going to get him in a problem, then he had a problem with the justice system.
THE WITNESS: I assume that, yes.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Did he ever —
THE COURT: But before he had problems with the justice system, he was plenty happy to play with it, jerk us around, come when he felt like it, answer what questions he felt like, right?
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: Until people in the justice system here in the state of Florida said, “Bob Minton, you’re not going to play with our justice system here. We’re in charge,” right?
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: That caused him a great deal of concern.
THE WITNESS: And I guess that he was mainly concerned because he knew that he would not answer
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specific questions. And he felt that if he came into court and he was asked those questions that he had made a conviction that he wasn’t going to answer, that he wasn’t going to answer them anyway, and he was just going to go to jail.
THE COURT: And he could rest assured on that; that if this court or any other court that I’m aware of in my circuit told him to answer a question and he said no, he would have gone to jail until he answered it. And there is no question about that. And I am sure that any inquiry that Mr. Minton asked, he was told that.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
THE COURT: Right.
THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am.
THE COURT: No wonder he was upset with the justice system here, the way — and the games that he was playing.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Did he talk to you about trying to figure out a way not to come to court when he was ordered to appear for deposition?
A I think I may have had that conversation with Stacy Brooks.
Q Okay. What did she tell you? ‘Cause she’s also a
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witness in this case.
A She told me that —
MR. WEINBERG: Just for the record, I’m objecting to hearsay, but — I understand what the judge’s rulings have been, but at this —
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: All this testimony is hearsay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q What did she tell you?
A She told me that Bob was extremely upset; that he was kind of in a — a state — a mental state like — I don’t know — having a breakdown of some sort, and she wanted him to go see a professional. I guess something had happened at that time where the — again, something happened with the children when he was supposed to come down. I think the neighborhood got leafletted again or something happened with the kids again. And the questions themselves, that he became very distraught. Stacy mentioned having him go see a professional, a psychologist or a psychiatrist or something, and he — he didn’t really want to do that. He didn’t want to do that. So — so that was Stacy’s angle of, like, “Okay, well, we need to get him to a professional and get him excused from coming to the deposition.”
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Q And did Diane Palermo’s name come up in that conversation?
A Yes, it did.
Q And was Diane Palermo, as far as you know, a mental health therapist?
A No, she is not.
Q What is she?
A As far as I knew, a social worker.
Q And was she ever Mr. Minton’s social worker?
A Not that I’m aware of. I kind of doubt it.
Q And are you aware, from speaking with Bob Minton or Stacy Brooks, what Stacy Brooks had tried to get Diane Palermo to do?
A Yes. Stacy Brooks tried to get Diane Palermo to do some kind of an analysis of Bob Minton’s mental state and — and give him advice that would preclude him from coming to the deposition.
Q And did Diane Palermo agree to do that?
A No. Not at all.
Q And so what did Stacy Brooks do next to try to get an excuse —
THE COURT: I know the answer to that and so does everybody in this courtroom. We don’t need to hear it again.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
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MR. DANDAR: All right.
THE COURT: This is in Stacy Brooks’ affidavit?
MR. DANDAR: Pardon me?
THE COURT: Is it in Stacy Brooks’ affidavit?
MR. DANDAR: I don’t think it’s in there. Not this way.
MR. WEINBERG: She testified about it and Mr. Minton testified about it. I think it’s all over the place.
MR. DANDAR: They’re calling her a mental health therapist who told him not to travel.
THE COURT: You already got that out. He said she’s not a mental health therapist.
MR. DANDAR: All right.
THE COURT: But Stacy Brooks filed something before Judge Baird.
MR. DANDAR: Yes, she did. That affidavit.
THE COURT: That affidavit is what I’m talking about. God, I know this case good, don’t I?
MR. DANDAR: Yes, you do.
MR. WEINBERG: Better than —
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And did you see that Stacy Brooks affidavit about trying to make an excuse for Mr. Minton?
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A No, sir. I did not.
Q Okay. Do you know that Stacy Brooks called Steve Hassan?
A Steve Hassan? Yes.
Q And tried to get him to write an excuse letter?
A Yes.
Q Even though he’s never talked to Bob Minton about —
MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor. Again, this is all based on conversations with Stacy Brooks. I mean, we’re —
THE COURT: But this is kind of impeachment, so this is what you got to do. In other words, if Stacy Brooks comes in to court and says one thing in front of me and this — she’s told something different to this man —
MR. WEINBERG: I don’t think she told anything different —
THE COURT: Yes, she did, about that.
MR. WEINBERG: About —
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. WEINBERG: All right.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q And did she ask Steve Hassan to write a letter?
A She asked Steve Hassan to become involved, and he
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declined, based on the fact that Bob was not a patient of his. Bob — they had no prior history or discussions about — you know, Bob hadn’t mentioned to him about anything. And of course I think it was kind of obvious that this was a last-ditch effort to — for Bob not to come down for the deposition.
Q But Bob Minton in truth was really, really emotionally upset about what he saw on the Internet.
A Yes. He was crying —
THE COURT: Bob Minton didn’t come down for the deposition, did he?
THE WITNESS: I don’t believe he did. No, he didn’t.
THE COURT: Then I guess —
THE WITNESS: No. He went to the hospital because he —
Okay. Now — okay. I’m remembering this.
THE COURT: Isn’t this what Judge Baird found him in contempt for?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Why Lord have mercy, why a judge, why, imagine that; this justice system, when Mr. Minton flaunted a demand and a command and an order from a court to come here and he didn’t come, I guess he had every right to be upset at our system
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of justice because some judge took great offense and held him in contempt. Dear, dear.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q All right. Let me — let me go and look at Exhibit 109 —
A But you know, Bob ended up going to the hospital. He was — he started having chest pains or something, and he was in the hospital for a couple three days —
Q Okay.
A — under observation by a doctor. And I do believe that on the day that he was supposed to appear for contempt that he was in the hospital.
Q All right. Let me have you look back at 109 again.
A Okay.
Q You identified the first page. What about the second page entitled —
A — Intelligence Actions.
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with that?
A Yes, I am.
This is kind of a routine that happens in intelligence in Scientology on any — anything that’s a threat or — or an attack on Scientology. This policy kind
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of comes into play, where you investigate, you do your ODC, overt data collection; CDC, covert data collection. You do your noisy investigation. You find some skeleton. And if you can’t find it, you manufacture something. And you use that to sue for peace.
Q Is there something in here that talks about manufacturing a skeleton if you can’t find it?
A Not in this particular one. But you were — I think the one that you’re referring to, as far as manufacturing information against an individual, would lie in the department of government affairs for which you just have one page of.
Q Yeah. I see we’ve got two pages of the same thing.
A Yeah. But if I turn one — two pages back and I go to what’s listed here —
THE WITNESS: And I think it’s very hard to see, your Honor. It goes from page 484 in this statement packet — two pages away from government affairs —
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Government affairs —
Wait. Let me just correct it now.
A No, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
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Q All right.
THE COURT: Isn’t this something; they’re just fussing with each other?
MR. DANDAR: You can see we rehearsed all this.
THE WITNESS: See, I’ll show you. Okay. I’ll find it for you.
THE COURT: You find it.
THE WITNESS: I’ll find it for you.
Here’s the department of government affairs.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: And this is page 483. And then this is put in there and this is put in there. But then we get back to page 484, where it says right here,
“If attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone or anything or any organization, always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace.”
THE COURT: Okay. This is page —
This is not in order, Mr. Dandar.
MR. DANDAR: I’m going to fix it. I’d like to fix it now.
THE COURT: Well, maybe you could fix it before you introduce it.
MR. DANDAR: I will.
THE COURT: If there is going to be Exhibit 409
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(sic), you better have this 409-A, B —
MR. DANDAR: 109.
THE COURT: I’m sorry. 109.
MR. DANDAR: That’s what I’ll do. I’ll label them.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. DANDAR: I can see where the extra pages —
MR. WEINBERG: I’m lost.
THE COURT: It’s page 484, which is not after page 483. It’s about four pages back.
MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
THE COURT: It says, if you will look —
Well, where was that?
MR. DANDAR: Exhibit 4 is in there twice.
THE WITNESS: Let me see. It’s in the third paragraph.
THE COURT: Show me where you’re reading from.
MR. WEINBERG: I see it. It’s the third paragraph.
THE COURT: Okay.
“If attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone or anything or any organization, always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace.”
What is this?
THE WITNESS: This is a policy letter, your
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Honor. This is a church policy letter that is a policy letter for the department of government affairs, which is a department or a section or a unit within the Scientology organization, that basically talks about — you know, things having to do with tax matters, legal activities, whatever, for an organization.
THE COURT: What does the term “sue for peace” mean?
THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, it means basically that a person just wants to end what’s-ever happening and let’s just settle it and all walk away as happy as possible.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Like a disengagement?
A Yes.
MR. DANDAR: Judge, I’ve marked mine, and I’d like to mark the clerk’s copy with the letters.
THE WITNESS: And you see we — I think — I can help you put this in order here, because you got the pages —
MR. WEINBERG: What I did was I eliminated the — the Intelligence Action, second page, it looked like the same thing that was —
THE COURT: Yeah. The second Intelligence
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Actions, right?
MR. WEINBERG: I threw that one out. They were the same as the first one. And then I reordered, what you did, 483, 484, 485. And I assume everything else is the same.
THE WITNESS: I’ve — so this is the whole document right there, these three pages.
BY MR. DANDAR:
Q Okay. Look at the next part, where it’s previously marked in another deposition, as Exhibit 6, about “make sure that’s all in order.”
A Okay.
Q First of all, do you identify that document?
A Yes. This is also a document that’s relevant to PR, legal intelligence.
Q And what is that called?
A Public Investigations Section.
Q Public investigation.
A Correct.
Q What’s that?
A This would be investigating individuals outside of Scientology using outside agencies. I have to take a moment to look at this.
Q All right.
THE COURT: I’ll tell you what. This looks
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like something too long to read here to have any meaningful talk. Let’s quit for the day. I’m tired.
MR. WEINBERG: I’m tired.
MR. DANDAR: Okay.
THE COURT: It’s quarter to 5. If you will read this over tonight, and we’ll continue on. In the meantime, have these marked by the clerk as 109-A, B, C, D, so we know what you’re referring to.
THE WITNESS: Okay. And I have — I have the clerk’s copies here.
THE COURT: Okay. If you’ll — do you have a copy for your witness to look at?
MR. DANDAR: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Prince, while you are on the witness stand, you are in rather a unique position. You not only are under the rule, which means that you can’t talk to any other witness about your testimony —
THE WITNESS: Right.
THE COURT: — nor can they talk to you about theirs, but while you are on the witness stand, you are not permitted to speak to anyone about the case, including Mr. Dandar or counsel for the other side,
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all right?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Now, I may, if I’m gone and Mr. Prince isn’t done and I’m gone for two weeks, let him out from under that, just like I did other people when it was going to be, like, long weekends or what have you. But not for tonight.
THE WITNESS: Yes, ma’am.
THE COURT: And I really think, Mr. Dandar, that you ought to be able to get through this a little faster. We don’t need — you can go quickly through those things that your experts have already testified to. And I presume his testimony would be the same.
MR. DANDAR: Yes.
I’m going to go through the PC folders and –which is I gave him that affidavit that you haven’t seen apparently before.
THE WITNESS: But this is the clerk’s. This has to go back to her.
MR. DANDAR: And I’ll show him that as well.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. DANDAR: Exhibit 108.
And then we’re going to talk about Mr. Minton, the LMT, and what transpired in 2002.
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THE COURT: You’re never going to finish tomorrow, I’ll bet you, but —
MR. WEINBERG: Plus he’s got Mr. Haney set in the morning.
MR. DANDAR: I have Mr. Haney in the morning.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINBERG: So we’re obviously not going to.
MR. DANDAR: And he should be short.
MR. WEINBERG: But I will not necessarily be brief with Mr. Prince, but I don’t know yet.
THE COURT: Well, it doesn’t really matter. I don’t think he’s going to be brief either.
MR. WEINBERG: Right.
THE COURT: Because we’ve got a lot of ground to cover with Mr. Prince. And frankly, we’re not to any of the issues.
MR. WEINBERG: No.
THE COURT: But thank you, sir. You may step down, remembering the rule I just gave you about while you’re a witness on the stand.
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: If you will remind me Wednesday afternoon when we break for over two weeks, Mr. Dandar, better yet — I shouldn’t have to rely on this witness — if you will remind me, since he
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is an expert of yours or a consulting witness or whatever he is, I may allow you to have some discussions with him since we’re going to be in recess on this hearing for two weeks.
MR. DANDAR: Thank you, Judge.
THE COURT: But you’re going to have to remind me so I can decide that.
MR. WEINBERG: We would like to speak to that particular issue.
THE COURT: Okay.
(An overnight recess was taken at 4:50 p.m.)
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REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties’ attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action.
WITNESS my hand and official seal this 19th day of June, 2002.
______________________________
DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR