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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11

DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,

vs.

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants.
_______________________________________/

PROCEEDINGS: Defendants’ Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.

Testimony of Jesse Prince.

VOLUME 4

DATE: July 9, 2002.

PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding
St. Petersburg, Florida.

BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge.

REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, Notary Public, State of Florida at large.

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APPEARANCES:

MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.

MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for Plaintiff.

MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.

MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.

MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.

MR. STEPHEN WEIN
BATTAGLIA ROSS DICUS & WEIN
980 Tyrone Blvd.
St. Petersburg, FL 33743
Attorney for Mr. Minton.

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INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
                                                       PAGE  LINE
Recess                                                    535   10
Recess                                                    580   3
Reporter’s Certificate                          581  1

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(The proceedings resumed at 10:05 a.m.)

[… Other court business.]

THE COURT: Okay. I’m ready for Mr. Prince.

MR. DANDAR: All right. Thank you.

THE COURT: He’s still under oath. Same oath he’s taken. You only have to take it once.

You may continue, Mr. Dandar.

MR. DANDAR: Thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Wein, you’re going to hear some unusual evidentiary rulings here, because we’re dealing with things like, perhaps, state of mind of your client. However, you don’t have — you’re  just — your client is nothing but a witness in this hearing. Therefore, as I told Mr. Battaglia yesterday —

MR. WEIN: I understand I can listen but I  shouldn’t be standing up and objecting.

THE COURT: That’s correct.

And you might think, “What in the world kind of

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rulings is she making? She doesn’t understand anything about the rules of evidence.” This is an unusual hearing with unusual rules, and we’ve got some objections that have been made and will be preserved, that have been made, First Amendment objections, expert objections, stuff like that, that are preserved. So you might hear triple hearsay come in in this hearing. It’s just an unusual hearing. So —

MR. WEINBERG: So it’s both the lawyers that aren’t objecting —

THE COURT: Yeah. When you hear that —

MR. WEINBERG: (Inaudible.)

THE COURT: When the lawyers don’t object —

MR. WEINBERG: (Inaudible, simultaneous speakers.)

THE COURT: — just understand that we’re involved in somewhat of an unusual hearing, and I’ve made some somewhat unusual evidentiary rulings already. So we’re —

MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: — taking it from there.

Continue.
__________________________________________
25
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BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Mr. Prince, I’m not sure I asked you this question yesterday or not, but are you aware that Mr. Minton received from me any information concerning any of the mediations in this wrongful death case?

A  No, I am not.

Q  Did Mr. Minton ever talk to you and say, “Oh, Ken Dandar told me this about the mediation and what was said at the mediation”?

A  No, he did not.

Q  Now, before you left the Church of Scientology, how many years did you know — personally know David Miscavige?

A  I’d say about 12 years.

Q  And yesterday you said you were a friend of David Miscavige?

A  I said we’d been friends; we had been friends, close friends, at a point in time.

Q  Okay. When did that friendship end, if at all?

A  Well, it’s been quite a while since we’ve talked to each other. Probably — you know, if we talked to each other — I don’t know — maybe we could still find some friendship there. But we haven’t talked for quite a while.

Q  Well, give us a year. When did you last talk to him?

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A  ’92.

Q  And is ’92 the year that you were no longer a Sea Org member?

A  ’92 is the year that I left.

Q  Okay. And prior to leaving, did you still consider him to be your friend?

A  Yes, I did.

Q  Okay. And did he work with you in RTC when you were deputy inspector general?

A  Yes, he did. And as a matter of fact, more often than not I would report to him.

Q  Rather than Vicki Aznaran?

A  Together with Vicki Aznaran or without Vicki Aznaran.

Q  Can you describe to the court his management style?

A  Well, same management style that’s pretty much taught throughout the management series of Scientology, wherein an executive is expected to know about or be in control of all areas underneath the executive.

Normally when you have a person that’s high in the organizational chart in Scientology, you’ll have a seven-division org board. The person that is over that activity has to know the details of what’s going on in all of those seven divisions. Each division may be having three

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separate departments, as many as three separate departments, and different units within the department. So there could be a lot of people there. There is provisions for inspecting, getting information, and on and on and on, with that. But it’s very much expected to know everything.

But it certainly gets carried to an extreme, or certainly was carried on to an extreme during my tenure there, in that certain sections or areas would be micromanaged to the point where the staff in that area could only act on orders and comply with orders, comply with command intention, comply with programs. There was not a lot of original thought process going on in some areas by staff.

Q  How far down the org board did you personally observe Mr. Miscavige micromanaging during your tenure?

A  All the way down to the janitor.

Q Really.

A  Yeah.

Q  Would he manage that way with RTC or would he go outside of RTC?

A  Would go outside of RTC. There’s plenty of examples of that.

Q  Can you give us a few?

A  Well —

MR. WEINBERG: Could we just date this? I was

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under the impression that when Mr. Prince was at RTC, Mr. Miscavige wasn’t. So can we put a date when he’s talking about?

THE WITNESS: I certainly will.

THE COURT: And what was that?

THE WITNESS: Well, I haven’t spoken of any instance yet, but the instance that I’m about to talk about right now happened in 1985 — and I do believe I’ve done a declaration about this before — whereby myself, David Miscavige, Vicki Aznaran, Mark Yeager, Mark Ingber, Ray Mithoff, the usual crew, came to the FSO.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Flag?

A  Flag Service Organization.

Q  In Clearwater?

A  In Clearwater, Florida.

Went through the entire organization, started declaring suppressive persons of staff and public on the spot; people that we didn’t want or felt were inappropriate to be in the Flag Service Organization.

I’ve given a declaration about that before.

THE COURT: Have I seen that declaration?

MR. DANDAR: I don’t — I don’t think —

Was it — it wasn’t in this case, was it?

0504

THE WITNESS: No. I believe it was in another case.

I will certainly find it, when —

THE COURT: That’s all right. I just didn’t know — I didn’t remember —

MR. DANDAR: No, it wasn’t.

THE COURT: — reading it.

MR. WEINBERG: Does he know what cases?

Was it the Wollersheim case?

THE WITNESS: I believe it may have been.

A  There’s another instance that was produced and written about by KSW News or Scientology News, where again the usual crew — myself, Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock, Ray Mithoff, Mark Ingber, Mark Yeager, several Scientology attorneys — went to San Francisco to have a mission holders’ conference with the current mission holders.

THE COURT: Go to the mission —

THE WITNESS: Mission holders. Mission holders would be like franchise holders, organization — The Scientology organization is one thing.

Then you can have a franchise of that which is called a mission. And the mission holder would be the owner of the mission.

THE COURT: I see.

A  Anyway, we went up to San Francisco to have a

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mission holders’ conference. And prior to actually having the conference, we stopped in a local Scientology organization, the San Francisco organization, went through the entire organization, spoke to everyone in the
organization, and removed the executive from the organization, removed other people, and left.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  What gave you the power —

MR. WEINBERG: Could you please date that one too, please?

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  What year was that?

A  That one was 1982 — late ’82 or very early ’83, as I recall.

Q  And what gave Mr. Miscavige and your group the power to go into a separate corporation, the San Francisco organization, and remove officers of the corporation?

A  This is the subject of something I’ve also given extensive testimony and declaration about, because it goes to alter-ego within Scientology.

But there’s a thing called mission tech, where Sea Org members can get together on orders based on Sea Org programs, and go into any organization and take it over completely and remove its executives, alter, change its policy, change its board of directors, change whatever it

0506

wants to. And once it deems that the activity is performing to the expected standard, then the mission will pull out.

Normally these missions last for two, three weeks.

Q  So it has to do —

THE COURT: Mission —

I’m sorry, Mr. Dandar. We must be driving you crazy.

The mission lasts for two or three weeks, meaning the mission church or the mission of these folks that are going in to take a look?

THE WITNESS: The mission of these folks going in to take a look —

THE COURT: Okay.

THE WITNESS: — your Honor.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  And the officers of the corporation are removed because they’re doing —

I mean, what’s the reason for that? Let’s talk about the San Francisco organization.

THE COURT: Why is that relevant?

MR. DANDAR: It’s the power of the Sea Org, which is one of the issues raised at this hearing.

MR. WEINBERG: But it’s not an issue at this hearing. It may be an issue he’s trying to raise, but the issue at this hearing is whether or not, A,

0507

there was misconduct by Mr. Dandar and others; and B, whether or not there was a basis to allege that David Miscavige had ordered the killing, death of Lisa McPherson. Not Sea Org, none of that.

THE COURT: Well, part of the allegation was he was the head of the Sea Org, which was by — That is an issue.

MR. WEINBERG: But it’s — it — Mr. Miscavige, as we know, is not a party, because he didn’t pursue — that was the way they got him to be a party, by saying he was outside of the contract —

THE COURT: I —

MR. WEINBERG: — and —

THE COURT: — understand that, Counsel. But the allegation in the complaint that you are trying to get a summary judgment on and — and have dismissed as false is that David Miscavige did these certain things. And that still is part of the complaint, whether he’s a party or not.

MR. WEINBERG: There’s a lot of accusations in the complaint that I guess Mr. Dandar could have this hearing go for the next three months about, but that isn’t a central — I’ve said my piece.

THE COURT: Thank you.

0508

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  So Mr. Prince, you and your party, which included Mr. Miscavige, ousting the corporate officers of the San Francisco corporation, what — what gave them the power to do that?

A  Again, it was just Sea Org — it’s called Sea Org mission tech, where a person in the Sea Org, called a mission op, or operator — mission ops, it’s called — will put together a set of, like, project order to get done in the organization.

They may call for removing the executives; it may call for investigating and then removing upon determination; it may call for training; it may call for correction.

Q  And back in late ’82, early ’83, when you and Miscavige and the others went to San Francisco, who was the head of the Sea Org?

A  David Miscavige.

Q  And when you left in ’92 —

THE COURT: Mr. Hubbard was still alive then?

THE WITNESS: In 1992, yes.

MR. DANDAR: No, ’82.

THE COURT: ’82.

THE WITNESS: Oh. ’82. Yes. I’m sorry.

THE COURT: And he was not the head of the Sea Org?

0509

THE WITNESS: Yes, he was. He was the commodore.

But you know, we were going through this whole song and dance to try to get tax-exempt status for the various organizations of Scientology, and the problem came up where I guess it was determined that L. Ron Hubbard — it was found that L. Ron Hubbard was the managing agent of Scientology and the Sea Org. And so Mr. Hubbard, by that time, had really separated himself for the purposes of allowing this church entity — these Scientology entities to get tax-exempt status. He had kind of separated himself totally from Scientology activity.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  So when he separated himself, who took over as the head of the Sea Org?

A  Miscavige. David Miscavige.

Q  And when you left in ’92, who was the head of the Sea Org?

A  David Miscavige.

Q  Was there anyone in the Sea Org that had equal or greater rank than David Miscavige from ’82 to ’92 when you left?

A  At the time before I left, David Miscavige — this

0510

whole thing with brevet rank and being a captain and stuff — this is something that happened, I believe, later, after I was done there.

Mr. Miscavige derives his authority from being the chairman of the board of nearly every — all of the major corporations. He’s on the board of directors somehow, where he derives —

And then also, as far as Sea Org is concerned, Miscavige — I mean, basically, L. Ron Hubbard passed the torch to Miscavige. He didn’t pass it to Miscavige; he passed it on to Pat and Annie Broeker. Miscavige got rid of Pat and Annie Broeker, so effectively took control of Scientology.

Q  And did he take control of Scientology as the chairman of the board of some corporation or through the Sea Org?

A  He took control of Scientology through — by corporate means. And he was able to — You see — you see, this may be a little confusing, so I think this is worth — takes a moment to explain.

The Sea Org operates on not only these green policy letters and these red bulletins that we’ve seen, but the Sea Org has its own issues and issue types that it operates on. And they’re called Flag orders. Flag

0511

orders — you know, they supersede corporate boundaries; supersede posts or positions or whatever.

A  So Flag orders — L. Ron — the last Flag order that he wrote, he turned over Scientology to Pat and Annie Broeker. He called them loyal officers. Loyal officers is a term that comes up from reading Scientology’s, quote/unquote, advance materials. That was — loyal officers were supposed to be the highest rank in Scientology.

Miscavige — after L. Ron Hubbard passed, Miscavige cancelled that issue, did not let Pat and Annie —

THE COURT: We don’t really need to go there, do we?

MR. DANDAR: Well, I’m leading up to one question.

THE COURT: Okay.

A  Anyway, he effectively took it over.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  All right. Now, why is it that paragraph 34 — based on your affidavit, why is it that it alleges that David Miscavige, outside of anyone else, would be the person who would have given this order to end cycle?

A  Well, I think what my affidavit actually says is — is David Miscavige would have sat there with Ray Mithoff, with Marty Rathbun, the people that meet, to — to

0512

make sure that the flaps within Scientology that are a threat are dealt with. I think what I said there was that those three people would have gotten together and decided —

THE COURT: Ray Mithoff and who else?

THE WITNESS: Marty Rathbun.

MR. DANDAR: R-a-t-h-b-u-n.

THE WITNESS: Would have sat there with full knowledge and information of what was going on with Lisa McPherson. And instead of letting her be taken to a hospital, would have told these people to just let her stay there, and let’s see what happens here.

Let’s continue. See if we can, you know, finish the introspection rundown. Don’t put her on any line where she can tell a story about what’s happening to her.

In other words, let her die. If she dies, that’s what happens.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Now, what if the — based upon your tenure and your experience of working with Mr. Miscavige, Mr. Rathbun, Mr. — I’ve forgotten the third name.

A  Mithoff.

Q  Mithoff.

If Mr. Mithoff and Mr. Rathbun said, “No, no, no. We have these reports, that she needs to — she’s not

0513

doing — she’s getting worse. She needs to go to the hospital. Send her to the hospital,” and Mr. Miscavige says, “No. We’re not going to do that,” out of those three, who prevails?

MR. WEINBERG: Objection. This is just rank speculation.

THE COURT: It would appear to be so, except I believe he indicated, back when he was at RTC, these same people were there?

MR. WEINBERG: No. Mr. Mithoff was in CSI.

Mr. Rathbun was not in RTC.

I — I mean, he —

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Mr. Prince —

MR. WEINBERG: — at the time —

THE COURT: I’m going to allow it, because I know what the answer is. I mean —

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Mr. Prince, who was in RTC when you were in RTC, at these meetings?

MR. WEINBERG: No —

A  The only people that were in RTC were myself and Vicki Aznaran. David Miscavige was the chairman of the board of Author Services, a for-profit corporation that was L. Ron Hubbard’s publishing company. However, that meant

0514

nothing in relationship to who were the principals of Scientology, who were directing — directing the actions of Scientology as a whole. And the people that were doing that were David Miscavige, myself, Vicki Aznaran, Mark Yeager, Mark Ingber, Lyman Spurlock.

THE COURT: Was there a majority vote taken?

THE WITNESS: There’s no such thing as a vote in the Sea Org, unless you’re deciding on a quality of food, in Scientology.

THE COURT: If you disagree on a decision, who made the final call?

THE WITNESS: If you disagreed on a decision — if you disagreed with someone that was above you, you would be sent for correction to straighten out your —

THE COURT: Look, if you folks are sitting around trying to decide something — you and all these people, you said, were kind of a — there — and you disagreed; you know, you said, “I think this should happen,” Ms. Aznaran said, “I think this should happen,” David Miscavige said, “I think this should happen,” who made the call?

THE WITNESS: Ultimately the person who would have the authority and everyone would have to follow would be Mr. Miscavige.

0515

THE COURT: So he — he made the final call.

THE WITNESS: Yes, he would say, “Okay. Yeah.

This is how you do it.”

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Would he get input from the others for —

A  Yes. I mean, that happened. But the purpose — I mean, you know — and I just want to clear this picture — make this picture a little bit more clearer as to how it actually works.

Mr. — Mr. Mithoff, based on how it worked when I was there — I’m just going to explain this. Mr. Mithoff would have brought this situation to the attention of Mr. Rathbun. Mr. Rathbun would have looked over this — okay. And again, in my mind, I’m not going with the theory that she was crazy when they took her to the hospital; I’m not going with the theory that she just lay there and wanted to be there; I’m going with the theory that, just like she said, she wanted to leave. She was trying to leave. They incarcerated her, falsely incarcerated her, wouldn’t let her leave.

So Mr. Mithoff would have brought it to Mr. Rathbun’s attention. Because you have a threat. You have a person that is now escalated. They want to get out. And now they’re sick. It’s going bad — worse to bad. Mr. Mithoff would have taken and put an exact

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instructions in her folder, went over it with Mr. Rathbun.

And at the meeting they would have sat down with Mr. Miscavige and said, “This is the situation. This is the flap. This is the handling.” If their handling included not taking her to the hospital and keeping her there  and doing Scientology on her, Mr. Miscavige would have said, “Fine.” If their handling would have been, “Look, I think we better take this risk even though she is antagonistic, and we got to send her to the hospital,” it is my opinion that his answer would have been, “No. You leave her right there.”

Q  And why is that? What do you base that opinion on?

A  I base that opinion on the fact that protecting Scientology is the ultimate goal of any Scientologist, irrespective of friend, family, business. Scientology comes first. Because the idea in Scientology is that Scientology’s going to save the world. And if you lose Scientology, you lose the world. So it’s the greatest good to protect Scientology than it would be to be concerned about an individual, or a group, for that matter.

Q  Now, are you familiar with the term and policy letter called “bypass”?

A  Yes, I am.

Q  All right. Can you tell the court what that is?

0517

A  Bypass is a situation — I guess I can just do a real example here using the court reporter. If this court reporter here were typing transcripts and she were making too many errors, someone else would have to come in here and take over her job and — while she goes and gets fixed or gets corrected, and takes over her actual job, and does the job until she’s able to perform it again.

Q  Do you have an opinion whether or not, in Lisa McPherson’s case, bypass would have come into play?

THE COURT: I don’t understand that. I’m sorry. Maybe I just didn’t understand the example.

Maybe —

THE WITNESS: Okay. I’ll try to do another example, your Honor.

THE COURT: Bypass, to me, means you jump over somebody or you go around someone.

THE WITNESS: Well, you actually displace that person and assume their position.

THE COURT: Oh, I see. Okay.

THE WITNESS: Until they can do the job correctly.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Let me show you —

THE COURT: I don’t think he answered your

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question. I interrupted him. So if you want an answer, do you —

MR. DANDAR: Well, I’m going —

THE COURT: In the Lisa McPherson case —

MR. DANDAR: No —

THE COURT: — did bypass occur?

MR. DANDAR: I’m going to ask a question first.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DANDAR: I’m going to interrupt myself.

THE COURT: All right.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Let me show you what I have marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit 127, see if you can identify this.

A  Okay.

Q  Can you identify this?

A  Yes, I can. This is what’s commonly referred to as a CBO, central bureau order. It’s another issue type that Scientology puts out, you know, like a bulletin or a policy letter. And this particular issue talks about senior management bypassing into lower areas or lower units within the Scientology infrastructure.

Q  Under what circumstances would that happen?

A  This would happen at any point where the senior officer or senior body felt that there was a situation going on in a lower area that wasn’t being dealt with to par.

0519

Q  Now, do you have an opinion, based upon your experience in Scientology, whether or not, after your review of the Lisa McPherson matter, the policy bypass would have come into play?

MR. WEINBERG: Objection to competence. I don’t even know what this is. I mean, this is not written by L. Ron Hubbard, apparently. It’s not in the green volumes or the red volumes. There’s been no — there’s been no —

And Mr. Prince said he knew what bypass was. Well — but — and now he’s going to apply it to some hypothetical situation that he doesn’t have any personal knowledge of?

THE WITNESS: I think the issue speaks for —

THE COURT: I —

THE WITNESS: — itself.

THE COURT: I think for this purpose of this hearing, I just want to hear everything he has to say.

MR. WEINBERG: I understand. I just —

THE COURT: So I’m going to allow it.

MR. WEINBERG: Every now and then, I just need to get up to renew —

THE COURT: All right.

MR. WEINBERG: — my —

0520

Just so Mr. Wein —

Is it Wein —

MR. WEIN: Yeah.

MR. WEINBERG: Mr. — I’m “wine,” and he’s “ween.”

THE COURT: I want to hear everything —

MR. WEINBERG: Okay.

THE COURT: — because I want to find out all the things that Mr. Prince may have, as Mr. Dandar’s consultant —

MR. WEINBERG: I understand.

THE COURT: — told him about, so that I can have some understanding of the complaint and the allegations you’ve made. And so I’m going to allow it.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Have you seen this document before today, Mr. Prince?

A  Yes, I have.

Q  And under what circumstances have you seen that?

A  I have seen this during messenger training.

I had to, myself — when I went to Gilman Hot Springs in 1982, I became what’s called a commodore messenger. And I’ve explained that endlessly too. It’s a person — it’s an emissary of L. Ron Hubbard who has the

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same authority as L. Ron Hubbard. When they come with an order to an area, it’s like L. Ron Hubbard giving an order to an area. So you know, this has the highest level of priority, as far as compliance’s concerned.

I became a commodore’s messenger. And as part of being a commodore’s messenger, this was the first time in my study pack on the duties of commodore’s messenger that I read this particular issue.

Q  Okay. And do you have an opinion whether or not this bypass would come into play in any part of the matter concerning Lisa McPherson?

A  I think it would have certainly come into play, given the fact that Mrs. McPherson was not being cooperative or — and actually intended to leave Scientology. And this was consistent in what she was saying. So that’s like a breach of technology. There’s no such thing as Scientology not working, as far as the written materials are concerned. If Scientology doesn’t work, then something is wrong with the individual. Somebody has done something wrong or somebody has misapplied it.

So if you have a person in the extreme situation like Lisa was, that continued, that would be reason for bypass; to come in and, you know, deal with it specifically.

Q  Who gets involved when bypass happens?

A  For the FSO?

0522

Q  Yes.

A  Normally Ray Mithoff.

Q  In what position?

A  He’s the senior technical person internationally for Scientology. The Flag Service Organization is the senior mecca of technical perfection as far as Scientology is concerned, so the — the Flag Service organization is certainly one of the major providences of the senior CS  international.

Q  Now, a while back, you know, in my office, you pulled out an OW of Lisa McPherson —

THE COURT: OW?

MR. DANDAR: Overt withhold, abbreviated OW.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  — that she wrote in the fall of ’95, concerning February of ’95, where she mentioned management had to get involved? Do you recall that?

A  Yes. This was a — right around the first time I believe that Lisa started experiencing severe difficulty with Scientology, as far as her relationship to it. And she mentioned that whatever was going on with her was — you know, technically it resulted in a bypass by senior management; a bypass of the Flag Service Organization, to specifically help her and deal with her situation.

Q  Now, we already have in evidence and marked as

0523

Exhibit 96 —

And this is an extra copy.

MR. DANDAR: And Judge, I’ll show it to you if you need to see it again.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  But it’s the Heide Negro (sic) isolation watch report. Did you see that before?

A  Yes, I did.

Q  And on the second page it talks about —

THE COURT: That’s in evidence?

MR. DANDAR: Yes. 96.

THE COURT: Oh, okay. It’s been a long time.

THE WITNESS: I think she needs —

MR. DANDAR: It is a long time.

THE COURT: Thank you.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  On the second page, first paragraph of the last sentence —

MR. WEINBERG: Well, hold on. Mr. — I object to his competence — he has no personal knowledge of any of this.

THE COURT: I don’t even know what the question is going to be, so —

MR. WEINBERG: He’s now going into

0524

somebody’s —

THE COURT: Well, you don’t know what he’s going to go into because you haven’t heard the question. So let’s hear it and I’ll —

MR. WEINBERG: If I could —

THE COURT: Go on ahead with your question.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Okay. The first paragraph, it says that this data came originally from FSO CS, Alain Kartuzinski, who was in charge of John Taylor’s correction. Who —

THE COURT: See, I don’t even know where you’re reading from.

MR. DANDAR: I’m sorry. First paragraph on page 2.

THE COURT: Oh. Page 2.

MR. DANDAR: Yes. I’m sorry.

THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  “This was later corrected by a telex from Mr. Ray Mithoff, who indicated that the RD –” I guess that’s rundown —

A  Right.

Q  “– in fact could be delivered, at which point delivery commenced.”

0525

Now, what does that mean in plain English?

A  There was a question of whether or not this person could be given the introspection rundown. Alain Kartuzinski apparently thought that no one was qualified at this particular location, which is their advanced organization in the United Kingdom. This person was — apparently had similar symptoms to what Lisa and other people were having that have that problem. And Mr. Mithoff — this, again — at management, was alerted.

And Mr. Mithoff indicated that the rundown could be given, because Mr. Mithoff is the senior-most technical person within the Scientology infrastructure. Senior FSO CS Alain Kartuzinski — any auditor or case supervisor located here in Clearwater, Florida, operating in the Ft. Harrison Hotel and the Sandcastle, are considered to be the cream of the crop as far as auditors and technically trained people are concerned.

Q  Okay. Well, are you aware of evidence that you’ve seen where David Miscavige has become personally involved in the matters concerning Lisa McPherson?

A  One thing that I saw where he actually comes out himself was a letter that was written to Mr. Bernie McCabe concerning dismissing the criminal case that was brought against Scientology for Lisa McPherson’s death.

MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, Mr. Dandar’s not

0526

taking the position that this justifies his accusation that David Miscavige murdered Lisa McPherson, whatever he’s got to show you, that happened in the criminal investigation.

THE COURT: No. I think what he’s about to show me, based on his question, is something that indicates that David Miscavige knew about the Lisa McPherson case. I don’t think —

MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think —

THE COURT: — that that —

MR. WEINBERG: — the whole world knew about the Lisa McPherson case once there were people — once the church was indicted and people were walking around with picket signs.

THE COURT: We have to read it, ’cause I don’t know what it is.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Plaintiff’s 128. Is that the letter you’re referring to, Mr. Prince?

A  Yes, it is.

MR. WEINBERG: Well, could I have a copy, please?

MR. DANDAR: Oh.

A  Yeah.

0527

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Based upon your experience as a Scientology executive in RTC, why would RTC have anything to do or be  involved with the Lisa McPherson matter?

A  I think if you just look at the second paragraph on page 7 of this letter, the last sentence, I think that pretty much says it all. It says, “Therefore, if rapid, responsible and meaningful resolution of this case is to be achieved –”

THE COURT: Just a second. I can’t find out where you are. Page 7, what?

THE WITNESS: Second paragraph. Last sentence in the second paragraph.

THE COURT: All right.

THE WITNESS: Where it says, “Therefore, if rapid, responsible and meaningful resolution of this case is to be achieved, you and I are the persons to do it.”

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  You, meaning Mr. McCabe, and I, meaning Mr. —

A  Miscavige.

Q  — Miscavige?

A  Correct.

Q  Why would — again, why would Mr. Miscavige then be personally involved in the Lisa McPherson matter?

0528

MR. WEINBERG: Again —

A  Again, bypass —

MR. WEINBERG: — isn’t this pure speculation on his part?

THE COURT: Well, I think that — that — I would read this that this was after the charge was brought.

MR. DANDAR: Yes.

THE COURT: And that Mr. Miscavige, as the ecclesiastical head of the church against whom a charge was brought, was saying, “If this is going to be resolved, Mr. McCabe, as the state attorney, and I, as the head of this church, need to sit down and try to resolve it.”

MR. WEINBERG: And of course, he was not successful at that point, because the case continued for another year. And we all know how it —

THE COURT: However, we perhaps need to hear from Mr. Prince how he believes that statement shows that Mr. Miscavige was involved before Lisa McPherson died. Which is what your point of the question —

MR. DANDAR: That’s where I’m heading, yes.

THE COURT: Okay.

0529

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  How does that — how can you explain that as reference to, as the judge just said —

A  I think the letter, you know, indicates Mr. Miscavige’s broad knowledge of every step of the criminal case, you know. And there’s no obvious evidence that he’s had involvement in this case, but it would certainly be my opinion that he has. Because again, this is a flap. It’s a bypass.

THE COURT: Well, Mr. Prince, let me just ask you what would seemingly be a logical question to me:

You could certainly have a situation — I’m not saying this is true or not true. But you could have — certainly have a situation where somebody didn’t know about somebody being ill, but when criminal charges were filed, because that person died, if they’re the head, they’d become involved and take over from that point.

THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. That is a rational line of thinking for, you know, regular world activities. But in Scientology, these — you know, Scientology —

THE COURT: I’m not saying that —

THE WITNESS: — is extremely —

0530

THE COURT: — Mr. Miscavige didn’t know.

THE WITNESS: Right.

THE COURT: I am saying that another explanation — I mean, this is about a criminal charge —

THE WITNESS: Right.

THE COURT: — right?

THE WITNESS: Right.

THE COURT: And so you could certainly have —

THE WITNESS: Against the Flag Service Organization.

THE COURT: Yeah. You could have a situation where the ecclesiastical head, after criminal charges are filed, says, “Let’s you and I sit down and see if we can resolve this criminal case.”

THE WITNESS: Right.

Well, you know, where are the letters from the corporate heads of the Flag Service Organization, doing the same thing with Mr. McCabe?

THE COURT: I’m sorry. Where are the what?

THE WITNESS: The corporate officers of the Flag Service Organization. Where’s Mr. Ben Shaw’s letter to Mr. McCabe to sort this out? Why does this necessitate Mr. Miscavige? This is against the

0531

Flag Service Organization.

THE COURT: Well, because as I understand it, Mr. Miscavige is the ecclesiastical head of the Church of Scientology.

THE WITNESS: Every one of them.

THE COURT: Every one of them.

THE WITNESS: Right.

THE COURT: Yeah. There’s no disagreement.

So as I said, I can — I’m not saying that Mr. Miscavige did or did not know about Lisa McPherson’s situation when she was at the Ft. Harrison Hotel. Because quite frankly, that’s one of the issues.

But this letter just simply says that, “I as the head of this church, all of them, want to sit down with you and resolve this case.”

THE WITNESS: Right.

THE COURT: So how do you jump from that —

THE WITNESS: Well —

THE COURT: In other words, there’s lots of people who have testified that David Miscavige, as chairman of the board of RTC, knew about Lisa McPherson. There’s just no question in their mind.

THE WITNESS: Right.

THE COURT: He would have known. He would have

0532

known because that’s the way business is done.

THE WITNESS: Correct.

THE COURT: Sort of.

THE WITNESS: Correct.

THE COURT: Okay. I’ve heard all that testimony. I presume you would testify the same.

But what does this letter add to this?

THE WITNESS: I — you know, your Honor, I think the only purpose of this letter is — is just to show what we were talking about earlier, when we were talking about the bypass and — and how, you know, it’s a pattern of conduct; how the organization does business. I think that’s the purpose of why this is in here.

THE COURT: Well, if this letter has relevance — if this letter has relevance, it has relevance to the, I suspect, agreed-to evidence in this case, which is that David Miscavige is the ecclesiastical head of the Church of Scientology, including — including Flag.

MR. DANDAR: Right.

THE COURT: Including all of the organizations.

MR. WEINBERG: The letter isn’t relevant to this proceeding.

THE COURT: No. It is not relevant to this

0533

proceeding, as I said, except that it might be relevant to that issue, which I assume is an agreed-upon issue.

MR. WEINBERG: The first church in the United States within 200 years is indicted, it’s not surprising that Mr. Miscavige —

THE COURT: No, it’s not.

MR. WEINBERG: — would want to try to find a resolution to it.

THE COURT: That is true, and that’s what I said. I don’t think it has any relevance to this proceeding unless it is to establish that indeed Mr. Miscavige is the ecclesiastical head of the church, including — including Flag.

MR. WEINBERG: He’s the ecclesiastical — he’s the ecclesiastical leader of the churches of Scientology.

THE COURT: Right.

MR. WEINBERG: The religious leader of the Church of Scientology.

THE COURT: Well, ecclesiastical leader and religious leader are the same thing.

MR. WEINBERG: Right. Same thing. He happens to be the chairman of the board of an organization called RTC, but he’s the ecclesiastical or religious

0534

leader of Scientology.

THE COURT: Right.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Mr. Prince, is Mr. Miscavige the leader of all of the Scientology churches as — because he’s the COB of RTC or because he’s the captain of the Sea Org?

A  Because he’s the captain of the Sea Org.

Q  When Mr. Miscavige was the captain of the Sea Org and the COB, of the for-profit corporation Office Services, Inc., ASI, was he the head of all of the churches of Scientology as well?

A  Well, again, as your Honor correctly pointed out, Mr. Hubbard was alive at that time.

Q  Oh, okay.

A  Shortly after Mr. Hubbard passed, that was certainly the situation for a moment.

But immediately upon the death of Mr. Hubbard and the ousting of Pat and Annie Broeker, Mr. Miscavige assumed control of Religious Technology Center.

Q  All right. And did he do that because he was the chairman of the board of ASI or the captain of the Sea Org?

A  Because he was the captain of the Sea Org. You know, everything is done in the Sea Org with missions.

MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could he just answer —

0535

THE COURT: Yes. He’s answered the question.

MR. DANDAR: Judge, I have a document — actually, it’s a notice of filing. I’m going to have to have the clerk mark this notebook. And —

(A discussion was held off the record.)

THE COURT: All right. We’ll go ahead and take our morning break since it’s very close to that time. We’ll be in recess till 11:30.

(A recess was taken at 11:17 a.m.)

(The proceedings resumed at 11:37 a.m.)

THE COURT: You may continue.

MR. DANDAR: What I had marked and what I was about to hand the witness and the court, and not have to make an extra copy for Mr. Weinberg — which I didn’t because, quite frankly, he has all this, but I understand what he’s saying. He should have the same thing I’m handing — and that’s fine.

We’ll get that done over the lunch break — is Exhibit 130. It’s a compilation of documents, statements and depositions of staff.

But I’m only going to ask this witness about J, which is the narrative investigation of Detective Carrasquillo, April 15th, 1997.

MR. WEINBERG: I object to the use of this

0536

document. It’s just — it’s a — it’s not a sworn statement; it’s not a sworn statement of a witness. It’s just her — it’s a hearsay account of what she claims — I guess summarizes what somebody would have told her. That’s not evidence.

THE COURT: Well —

MR. WEINBERG: It’s not — certainly not for — I think where he’s going is that he’s offering it for the truth of the matter asserted. And it’s pure hearsay.

THE COURT: Well, it would be true hearsay if he’s offering it for the truth of the matter asserted, but I don’t know what he’s going to ask this witness. So let’s hear it.

MR. WEINBERG: All right.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Mr. Prince — of course, we obtained this document, you know, a year after your affidavit of August of ’99 —

A  Mm-hmm.

Q  — when this was made a public record —

But in paragraph 3, the interview summary of Mr. and Mrs. Ortner, O-r-t-n-e-r, indicates that Mr. Miscavige was staying at the Ft. Harrison Hotel —

MR. WEINBERG: That’s what I’m talking about,

0537

your Honor.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  — while they were there, around November 20th of 1995.

Do you — here’s my question: Do you know of circumstances or other occasions when Mr. Miscavige would stay at the Ft. Harrison Hotel?

A  Yes, I do. Again, I’ll refer to the — to the video that was played the first day of my testimony where we were having a New Year’s Eve event. He would be there for that. He would be there for March 13th, which is  L. Ron Hubbard’s birthday. They normally have an event at the —

MR. WEINBERG: Are you talking about a specific year?

A  — and —

THE WITNESS: Excuse me?

MR. WEINBERG: About a specific year?

THE WITNESS: No. I’m talking — he asked me a question of when normally he would be there. I’m talking about —

MR. WEINBERG: All right. My objection is the question was whether he stayed there, not whether he was there. Big difference. And in this case there is no — I mean, if this is being offered that Mr. Miscavige was in Clearwater in November or

0538

December of 1995, it’s pure hearsay. And he wasn’t. And if he was —

THE COURT: I didn’t hear —

MR. WEINBERG: — he would have obviously — the state attorney would have done some investigation on it if that were the case. And it’s not the case.

But the question was whether he — whether Mr. Miscavige ever stayed at the Ft. Harrison Hotel, and Mr. Prince is talking about whether Mr. Miscavige was ever at the Ft. Harrison Hotel, which is completely different.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  How did you understand the question, Mr. Prince?

A  I understood the question as to at what times would Mr. Miscavige likely be at the Ft. Harrison.

Q  Okay. All right. Well, let’s —

THE COURT: I think that has some relevance, if it was anytime around — in and around the time of Lisa McPherson’s stay at the Ft. Harrison.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  So what events would he normally routinely come to in the Ft. Harrison?

A  There would be auditor’s date —

Q  Which is —

0539

A  — which is sometime in September; there would be IAS —

Q  What’s IAS?

A  Excuse me. International Association of Scientologists. They have an event in the summertime, I think, that’s around June or something like that, they have an IAS event. The New Year’s event. L. Ron Hubbard birthday event.

Q  Which is March?

A  March 13th.

Some of the more common times that I can think of that he would be there.

Q  What about non-Scientology holidays such as Thanksgiving?

A  Not likely —

Q  Okay.

A  — in my experience.

Q  Okay.

THE COURT: And the reason he would be at the Ft. Harrison Hotel as opposed to someplace else is because it’s the mecca of all —

THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

The Ft. Harrison is a very beautiful hotel.

THE COURT: Is that — mecca of all technology — mecca of all technology?

0540

THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Was —

THE COURT: Now, on a New Year’s event, I thought he was out in California on the tape that I saw.

THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. That was right in the Ft. Harrison.

THE COURT: Oh, it was?

MR. WEINBERG: You’re talking about two different tapes. The tape that you saw was California. The tape that Mr. Prince was in, was —

THE COURT: In Clearwater.

MR. WEINBERG: — in the Ft. Harrison.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. WEINBERG: That was — Mr. Prince was 20 years ago; your — I don’t know when it was. 2000.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DANDAR: It was less than 20 years ago.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  But anyway, do you — do you have any recollection of Mr. Miscavige staying at the Ft. Harrison Hotel rather than just showing up for an event?

A  Well, when I testified earlier about Mr. Miscavige and myself, Vicki Aznaran, you know, the regular crew coming

0541

into the Flag Service Organization and rearranging and declaring some people, we stayed there at that time.

I mean, you know, whenever Mr. Miscavige would come to the Clearwater area, as well as myself, we always stayed at the Ft. Harrison Hotel.

THE COURT: What were the dates that Lisa McPherson was at the Ft. Harrison?

MR. DANDAR: November the 18th of ’95 through December the 5th of ’95.

THE COURT: Do you have any information that would say that David Miscavige was or was not at the Ft. Harrison Hotel on those dates?

THE WITNESS: Your Honor, beyond what Mr. Dandar is presenting here today, I do not.

THE COURT: So regardless, if it weren’t for that hearsay document, you have no firsthand knowledge or other way of knowing whether he was there or not.

THE WITNESS: Correct.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Mr. Prince, one thing I wanted to ask you about that’s out of sequence, and that is after you left the Church of Scientology in 1992, did you have occasion after that time to consult with Scientology attorneys?

0542

A  Yes, I did. I was contacted by Mr. Mike Sutter, who worked in the Scientology — worked in the Religious Technology Center. He told me that he wanted me to meet with Mr. Earle Cooley concerning ongoing church litigation.

Q  And who is Mr. Cooley?

A  Mr. Earle Cooley was lead counsel for Scientology during the early ’80s.

Q  And what date or what month and year was this that Mr. Sutter asked you to meet with Mr. Cooley?

A  You know, to the best of my knowledge, I do believe it was 1994.

We met in Boston.

Q  What was the purpose of that meeting?

A  Well, I thought I was going to go there to speak about current legal cases, because that’s what they told me they wanted me to speak about. But in fact, when I got there, it became quite a different show. They wanted me to reaffirm for them the fact that — you know, the — under the — reaffirm the conditions under which I left Scientology, the documents and things that I was — felt obligated to sign to leave. They wanted to update all of that again.

So they recorded me and — And I — and I guess I also found out that they were having trouble in the Wollersheim 4 case, in that —

0543

and they wanted to know if persons such as Vicki Aznaran, Lawrence Wollersheim, any attorneys, had contacted me to give testimony concerning Scientology.

Q  And as of that time, had anyone contacted you?

A  No.

Q  And did they pay you for your time?

A  Yes.

Q  How much?

A  I think it was 28- — 27-, $2,800.

Q  Was that the last time you were consulted by any representative of the Church of Scientology on matters such as that?

A  I believe so.

Q  Okay. Now, Mr. Prince, you —

MR. DANDAR: And I am going to be jumping around here.

THE COURT: You said this was 1994?

THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  All right. Let me show you Plaintiff’s Exhibit 131. And I have highlighted certain portions of it. I’m going to direct your attention to certain areas.  First of all, can you identify this document?

A  Yes. This is another Scientology issue type.

It’s called an executive directive. And this is an

0544

executive directive concerning senior HCO Int. And it concerns security situations and threat handlings.

Q  Now at the top it has references, and it has a bunch of HCO policy documents. Is that what — am I reading that correctly?

A  Yes. There’s four HCO policy letters. The FO — there’s one Flag order; there’s one SPD, which is a Scientology policy directives; two more HCO PLs, another SOED, that’s a Sea Org executive directive; and a couple of more policy letters.

Q  Okay. And the references for like the Sea Org executive director 4234 international, it says, “Coordination on security and investigation matters, suppressive acts.” Do you see that?

A  Yes, I do.

Q  Did I read — maybe I didn’t read that right.

A  Well, suppressive acts is the HCO PO, 23 December, ’65.

THE COURT: What does HCO stand for?

THE WITNESS: Hubbard Communications Office.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  And the last HCO policy of October 27th, 1964 talks — or concerns physical healing, insanity and sources of trouble. Do you see that?

A  Yes, I do.

0545

Q  All right. What does this document, mentioning insanity and healing and sources of trouble, have to do with security?

A  Well, when you have a — an insane person or a source of trouble, potential trouble source within a Scientology organization, according to its policies, this is a source of great potential trouble for an organization, be it a Sea Organization or regular Scientology organization, and these gives — it gives the steps of prevention and handling.

Q  Is “handling” a word that is used in the policies?

A  Yes.

Q  And in this particular checklist, it talks about — the second paragraph, where I’ve highlighted, uses, “Make sure the situations are actually handled.”

A  Right.

Q  Now, turn to page 2, letter G.

A  Okay.

Q  First of all, this list is below a paragraph that says the types of security situations, am I reading this correctly, where it says, G,”Attempted suicide cases or PTS Type IIIs and any external or antagonistic connections to these –” are these security issues?

A  Absolutely.

Q  Do you have an opinion whether or not this

0546

particular checklist would come into play in reference to the Lisa McPherson matter, in November and December of ’95?

A  This — the date of this issue is the 11th of May, 1991, and it’s basically instructing the divisions within Scientology organizations to coordinate with OSA — Office of Special Affairs — to deal with the  situations listed A through O, Type III — PTS Type IIIs being one of them, PTS Type III being the Scientology term for a psychotic.

Q  Mr. Prince, this is, as you said, dated May, 1991.

Does it surprise you that it references policy letters that are written in 1959 and 1964 and 1968, et cetera?

A  No. The words of L. Ron Hubbard are eternal to Scientology.

MR. DANDAR: I’d like to move Exhibit 131 in evidence.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. WEINBERG: No objection. I don’t know what the relevance is, in light of the fact that there isn’t anything about RTC in this document.

THE COURT: It’ll be received.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  All right. And Mr. Prince, let me show you Exhibit 129. I don’t have an extra copy here, for some reason. Oh, I do. Okay.

0547

Remember yesterday we talked about in order to get the injectable Valium prescriptions and the chloral hydrate prescriptions from drugstores, you talk about staff — somebody filling out what’s called a CSW, completed staff  work?

A  Yes.

Q  All right. This document, Plaintiff’s Exhibit 129, do you know where this comes from?

A  Yes. This comes from the Hubbard Administrative Dictionary, which is a dictionary that defines administrative terms used in Scientology organization.

Q  Okay. And the definition of completed staff work, does that fit within your understanding of what you testified to yesterday?

A  Yes, it does.

MR. DANDAR: Like to move 129 into evidence.

THE COURT: It’ll be received.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Also Mr. Prince, you mentioned several times today that — when I was asking you about bypass and Mr. Miscavige’s role, you mentioned you had prior declarations. Let me show you Plaintiff’s Exhibit 132.

First of all, what is 132?

A  This is a supplemental declaration that was submitted in the Los Angeles courtrooms on behalf of

0548

plaintiff Lawrence Wollersheim.

Q  And this is your declaration?

A  Yes, it is.

Q  It’s dated December 22nd, 1999?

A  Yes.

Q  Is this one of the declarations you were referring to when you said you — in your testimony today, that you had previously filed declarations on the matters that we talked about?

A  No.

Let me just scan it here real quick.

Q  All right.

A  Well, yeah. I think right — starting on page 2, under the subtitle Sea Organization, I talk about Scientology missions, meaning, you know, a group of people going into an organization, taking it over. I talk about that.

Q  And on page number 40, you talk about —

MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I object to this. Why are we doing this? Mr. Dandar can ask him questions, but this is just a hearsay — I mean, this is an affidavit. He’s on the stand. I mean, if there’s something he wants

to ask him about, he can ask him, instead of saying, “On paragraph such and such it says such and such.”

0549

THE COURT: Well, I would normally tend to agree with you, except we have affidavits, prior declarations of so many people in this case, I don’t know why I would keep the prior declaration of Mr. Prince’s out.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  But Mr. Prince, the command channels and structure of the hierarchy of the Church of Scientology in this declaration, Plaintiff’s Exhibit Number 132, is it any different than your testimony than you’ve given in

this case today?

A  No, it is not.

Q  Is it any different than your — and the reason why you reached the opinions you reached in August of 1999 concerning David Miscavige’s role in Lisa McPherson’s death?

A  No, it is not.

MR. DANDAR: I’d like to move 132 into evidence as Plaintiff’s Exhibit 132.

THE COURT: I’m going to receive it over objection, just as a prior affidavit that —

MR. WEINBERG: Right. I mean, I — the objection would be, normally, just buttressing his testimony.

THE COURT: That is true. In other words, that would be exactly right. And that would be proper

0550

objection, not hearsay or —

However, I’m going to let it in.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  All right. Now, Mr. Prince, have you worked with Mr. Michael Rinder in your tenure in Scientology?

A  Yes, I have.

Q  And what did — how did — under what circumstances?

A  Mr. Rinder was a member of the watchdog committee during my tenure at RTC. He was a member of the watchdog committee, a commodore’s messenger, and he worked for the corporation the Church of Scientology International.

Q  What is the watchdog committee?

A  The watchdog committee are the principals of the Church of Scientology International. The principals of each sector and section of Scientology — if you look at a Scientology org board, you will — you will see it’s broken down into certain sections and sectors. One — one sector of Scientology is Scientology International. That means all of the organizations that are not Sea Org organizations and are not missions.

So you would have a WDC member, a watchdog committee member, for the Scientology organizations. Then you’d have a WDC member or a watchdog committee member for the Sea Organization. You would have a watchdog committee

0551

member for SMI, S-M-I, Scientology Missions International, et cetera, et cetera.

Q  And who is the head of that watchdog committee?

A  The chairman of the watchdog committee, during the time — my tenure in Religious Technology Center, was Mark Yeager.

Q  And did Mr. Miscavige serve on that board as well?

A  No, he did not.

Q  Okay.

A  That board reported to Mr. Miscavige.

Q  So Mr. Miscavige was above that board?

A  Correct.

Q  Now, Mr. Prince, based upon your experience and expertise in Scientology, do you have an opinion as to why Michael Rinder was meeting with Bob Minton to try to get the McPherson case dismissed, as early as 1998?

MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the — I mean, this is pure speculation. It is — it’s — I think it’s improper opinion testimony. He says that he has some expertise — which we have challenged, you know, for a number of
reasons — with regard to the religious technology.

Now he’s going to be speculating as to why someone would have been meeting with Mr. Minton? Mr. Minton’s testified regarding that; Ms. Brooks

0552

has testified in regard to that meeting at length.

THE COURT: I — I understand. We’ve had some opinions in — I don’t know why we wouldn’t listen to his, too. I mean —

MR. WEINBERG: I — it’s more frustration than anything.

That’s my objection. I understand that you’re overruling it, and I just wanted to —

THE COURT: All right.

MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.

A  Sorry. I don’t remember the question.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Why would Mr. Rinder —

First of all, is Mr. Rinder part of the Flag Service Organization?

A  To my knowledge, he is not.

Q  Do you have an opinion as to why Mr. Rinder would be meeting with Mr. Minton, as early as 1988, and of course in 2002, to get the Lisa McPherson case dismissed?

A  Certainly I have an opinion, based on experience. Because like the Wollersheim case that happened here, and the Mayo case, any major case that’s being litigated in the United States, irrespective of the corporation, the decisions, the planning and the execution of legal is done with OSA — Office of Special Affairs, David Miscavige,

0553

Marty Rathbun.

Q  All right.

A  Lyman Spurlock if it — if it involves corporate. Lyman Spurlock was an expert on corporate entities.

THE COURT: Who is Mr. Rathbun? What is his capacity?

THE WITNESS: Mr. Rathbun has had many capacities. Prior to coming into the Religious Technology Center, he was what was called a client affairs; legal client affairs. And he handled the legal affairs for the publishing aspect for Mr. Hubbard in Author Services. When he moved to Religious Technology Center, he became the inspector general for ethics. Ethics —

THE COURT: Is that what he is now?

THE WITNESS: I’m not sure what he is now —

THE COURT: Okay.

THE WITNESS: — your Honor.

But that position handles all legal PR and intelligence as part of its duties for Scientology organizations.

THE COURT: And do I recall correctly — I know we’ve had a vacation, and frankly some of this has escaped me —

Is Mr. Rinder the head of OSA?

0554

MR. DANDAR: Well, Mr. — at one time, Mr. Shaw, who is the head of OSA here, was — testified that he reported — his senior was Mr. Rinder. What his title was to be Mr. Shaw’s senior, I don’t know.

THE COURT: Well, OSA would have a —

Okay. I believe there’s testimony about that in this hearing that he is the head of the Office of Special Affairs. I think. Maybe not.

MR. DANDAR: All right.

THE COURT: Which includes legal.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. DANDAR: Right.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Now, Mr. Prince, let me show you what’s already in evidence as Plaintiff’s Exhibit 110, known as KSW News. And if you could, I’m going to —

THE COURT: I don’t know — I allowed the answer, but I don’t know what the answer was. I mean, the answer —

MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Shaw can explain it to you.

THE COURT: No. What — what I think — he went off to tell us about Mr. Rathbun. I think the question was why would it have been — why would Mr. Rinder have been called to this meeting. And

0555

is — what is your answer?

THE WITNESS: Right. Because Mr. Rinder would have been in that position, the senior person within the OSA network. And OSA operates on a statistic, just like other departments and sections within the Scientology organization operate on. And a statistic for the OSA would be a threat handled; a threat being a lawsuit or a person that was perceived to be an adversary against Scientology or taken an adversarial position against Scientology.

So getting rid of a lawsuit would be something that would improve conditions, you know, a statistic going up. That would be a good thing for them.

So — and that’s what they focus and concentrate on, handling legal situations.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  OSA.

A  Yes.

Q  All right. The KSW News, if you open up to the little — I believe it should be in the middle — there is a list of matters that need to be reported up lines to RTC.

A  Yes.

Q  Do you see that?

A  Yes, I do.

Q  And there’s an arrow that I drew —

0556

THE COURT: You all are too loud back there. Go ahead.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  — next to PTS Type III?

A  “Any person who acts PTS Type III, potential trouble source.”

Q  Okay.

A  And that is of concern.

Q  Does PTS Type III include people who are psychotic as well as people who want to leave? A  Correct.

Q  Now, this publication, when was it published?

A  1994 —

Q  And —

— is when the copyright notice is on it, RTC copyright notice.

Q  All right. So it certainly wasn’t published after Lisa McPherson died in ’95.

A  No, it was not.

Q  Now, this reporting up lines of PTS Type III to RTC, was that in effect when you were an active Scientologist?

A  Yes, it was.

MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me. What does that mean, an active Scientologist? When he was —

0557

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Prior to ’92. Prior to you actually leaving —

MR. WEINBERG: When you were at the RTC?

THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, it was.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Now, these meetings that you had with David Miscavige and Rathbun and Mithoff, Aznaran and others, you said there was a certain agenda?

A  Correct.

Q  And that the top of that agenda for each of these meetings was what?

A  Flaps.

Q All right. What was —

A  And what the handlings were.

Q  — the next —

How they were handling the flaps?

A  Yes.

Q  What was the — give us a list of — in priority of each meeting.

A  Flaps and handlings. Then statistics, go over the statistics of the departments, the divisions. Then you talk about — the next thing is talk about wins.

Q  Wins.

A  Wins. You know, successes. Scientology successes. Successes on the job, successes within the

0558

organization.

Q  And how often would these meetings occur?

A  Once a week.

Q  And this is just a meeting of people who were at RTC?

A  No. This is a pattern that is continued throughout the majority — all of Sea Org organizations.

Q  That includes Flag?

A  Yes.

Q  And back in —

MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I — the question was about Mr. Miscavige, and the answer obviously was way broader. You’re not — I don’t think Mr. Prince was saying Mr. Miscavige was having meetings on a weekly basis at all the Scientology organizations.

THE WITNESS: No, no. That’s not —

THE COURT: He’s saying, when he was a member and he would meet with these people, what was their agenda? That’s all —

MR. WEINBERG: Right. No — but then the next question was — then what he said was, “And this is done in all Scientology organizations,” which means — I think what he meant was there’s meetings every week in Scientology organizations with people

0559

in the org. That’s what —

THE WITNESS: The pattern of flaps and handlings, statistics and wins, is a pattern that every Sea Org organization has in their meetings, their weekly meetings. Miscavige isn’t at those meetings. I —

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  But at the meetings that you had and you participated in with Mr. Miscavige, were these meetings — when you say flaps, were they just — my question was, did they just concern RTC or was it flaps —

A  No.

Q  — of what —

A  When RTC has a meeting about flaps and handlings, it could include any aspect of the Scientology empire. It could include the FSO; it could include the organization in Australia if there was a threat in Australia of some org getting ready to be closed down, or if one of the Scientology organizations were raided in Greece or whatever.

You know, it could be anyplace.

Q  All right.

A  Because the problems were existing — in the lower organizations, their flaps —

THE COURT: You need to get to the point.

In your opinion, as somebody who was with — in

0560

RTC, at the time you were there, would the Lisa McPherson situation have been discussed at one of those meetings.

THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Is there any doubt about that?

A  No. And as I was getting ready to say is, the reason being is the lower organizations have to report to the higher organizations. The higher organizations have to approve the handlings for the flaps; have to verify the statistics. Then it goes to the next organization, who’ll do the same thing. And by the time it gets to RTC, it’s pretty much confirmed what the lower organization is saying.

And maybe the handlings may be modified, but you know, they’re pretty much all on the same page.

Q  Is there any doubt in your mind — as you sit here today, do you question your opinions that you reached in your August, ’99 declaration concerning the involvement of Mr. Miscavige in the Lisa McPherson as a PR flap?

A  No. I haven’t changed my opinion one bit.

Q  And is that opinion solely your opinion or are you being influenced by anyone to make that opinion?

A  I base my opinions on my personal experience, what I’ve observed, the written word of L. Ron Hubbard.

0561

Q  All right. Now, let’s jump now to 2002. The — we left off with your meeting — I believe you said you had this rather un- — not unpleasant, but bad — heated words were exchanged at that hotel, the Radisson on Clearwater Beach, when you met with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. Do you recall that?

A  Yes, I do.

Q  And Ms. Brooks walked out to the parking lot with you?

A  Yes.

Q  All right. I want to pick up from there.

When is the next time you recall having further conversation with Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton?

THE COURT: What — do we have the date on that?

MR. DANDAR: April the 14th.

THE COURT: Okay.

A  The last —

MR. WEINBERG: I don’t think he said that —

MR. DANDAR: Yeah. April the 14th.

THE COURT: Well, he said the dates were as they were in his affidavit, ’cause he sat down with a calendar.

MR. DANDAR: Right.

A  The next time that I talked to them, I think, was

0562

maybe a week or some days later, when they were staying at another hotel — oh, wow. Windham, the Hyatt Windham Hotel. I called and spoke to Bob and asked if he wanted to come by to the — ’cause I was having a barbecue.

MR. DANDAR: All right. And Judge, just for the record, I am looking at his April, 2002 Jesse Prince affidavit.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. DANDAR: His handwritten note is April 14th, that’s attached, 2002.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Mr. Prince, the handwritten note, did you write that when you met with me and Mr. Lirot?

A  Yes, I did.

Q  Okay. And after that is when —

Maybe I’m confused. Let’s hold on.

After that is when you had the dinner with Mr. Minton?

A  After I wrote this handwritten note is the Sunday that I met with them at the Radisson.

Q  Is that when you had that heated conversation —

A  Yes.

Q  — at dinner?

A  Yes.

Q  Was that — were you supposed to meet Mr. Rinder

0563

that day?

A  Correct.

Q  And who told you that?

A  Mr. Minton, Mrs. Brooks.

Q  And did you meet with Mr. Rinder on April 14th, 2002?

A  No, I did not.

Q  Why not?

A  Because it was deemed by Mr. Minton that I was not ready, because I was not willing to perjure myself.

Q  And who told you that?

A  Mr. Minton.

Q  How did he want you to perjure yourself?

A  He wanted — he wanted me to come in and say that you influenced me to write the August, ’99 declaration that I did; that you put words in my mouth. And he wanted me to say that some meeting occurred where Mr.  Minton was at, where you talked about adding David Miscavige on as a party.

And he kept using this term of, like, “You have to walk with us on this because we’re going to show you what to do. You know, we’re the A team. We got to be together on this. There can’t be any breaks. This is what we’re doing. This is what I’m saying. This is what you need to do to back it up.”

Q  How did you respond?

0564

A  “I absolutely will not do it.”

Q  Did Mr. Minton ever indicate to you that he knew that he was lying?

THE COURT: Could I ask —

Just one more minute.

What you’re saying — which affidavit is it that they — they, meaning Mr. Minton — wanted you to say Mr. Dandar influenced you to write?

THE WITNESS: The one where I wrote that Miscavige had knowledge and culpability in Lisa McPherson’s death.

THE COURT: The one that dealt with the change — or the amendment of the complaint. Is that the one he’s talking about?

MR. DANDAR: Yes. That’s the one he’s talking about.

THE COURT: That would have been the first affidavit he filed maybe in this case? Well, it doesn’t matter.

MR. DANDAR: No. The first one, I think, was the PC folders.

THE COURT: I know which one you’re talking about.

THE WITNESS: It was the second one.

MR. DANDAR: It’s the August, 1999 affidavit.

0565

THE WITNESS: Right.

THE COURT: And he also wanted you to state —

THE WITNESS: That Mr. Dandar had had a meeting with myself, Mrs. Brooks, Dr. Garko, Mr. Minton, to discuss adding Mr. Miscavige on as a party.

THE COURT: Right.

THE WITNESS: And apparently Bob was saying, you know, and we have to say that Mr. Dandar said that the meeting never happened, and you know, we were adding on Miscavige basically to try to force Scientology into a settlement position.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Was any of that true?

A  No.

THE COURT: Could we find out, since that does seem to be an issue here, what he remembers about whatever meeting there was to discuss adding Mr. Miscavige as a party? Or are you not ready for that, or are you not going to go there, or —

MR. DANDAR: Well, I’m trying to not invade my work product as much as possible. But it is an issue, and so I didn’t — We can ask him that question.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. DANDAR: I just don’t know how far I want

0566

to invade my work product.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  But Mr. Prince, do you recall having any meeting with me, Dr. Garko and Stacy Brooks about adding on David Miscavige —

THE COURT: I’m not going to let them get into the extent of the discussion necessarily, other than what we’ve done thus far in this hearing, which is who was there —

MR. DANDAR: Okay.

THE COURT: — and was there a discussion about adding Mr. Miscavige, and who was in favor of it and who wasn’t? That’s pretty much all that’s been discussed.

MR. DANDAR: All right.

THE COURT: And it’s been discussed by a lot of witnesses —

MR. DANDAR: Yes.

THE COURT: — Stacy Brooks, Mr. Minton, Mr. Garko, you.

MR. DANDAR: All right. So — That’s fine.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  So was there such a meeting?

A  There was a meeting between you, myself,

0567

Mrs. Brooks, Dr. Garko, where we discussed — and I mean, my recollection is there’s been more than one time that we  discussed this — about adding Mr. Miscavige on as a party.

Q  Was Mr. Minton ever at any of those meetings?

A  No, he was not.

Q  Do you have any idea why Mr. Minton would tell you, when you met with him in April, why he wanted to say he was at a meeting to add on David Miscavige?

A  Because the idea was —

MR. WEINBERG: Objection. If it’s something Mr. Minton told him, fine. But otherwise it would just be pure conjecture.

THE COURT: That’s true. If it’s something Mr. Minton told him, then he can discuss it.

Go ahead.

A  Okay. The idea that Mr. Minton told me is Scientology had several things that they wanted Mr. Minton to do. These were in conjunction and coordination with things that could be done to get the case dismissed. Specifically, going after you. Specifically, you were to be made the target of whatever stack of papers that Scientology provided to Mr. Minton. There was five or six things that they wanted him to do in relationship to you only. And you were the obvious target —

0568

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Why?

A  — to —

Because they wanted to get you kicked off the case. Because they figured if they got you kicked off the case, then no other attorney would pick it up and the suit would simply go away.

Q  And Mr. Minton told you this.

A  Yes.

Q  And how many times did he tell you that?

A  Several.

Q  Did Mr. Minton ever indicate to you that he knew that what he was saying about me was not true?

A  Mr. Minton was in — in the — in the very beginning, Mr. Minton was in anguish over the — the prospect of — of lying on behalf of Scientology for — against you. Mrs. Brooks was in a panic and desperate frame of mind to do whatever it took to extricate Mr. Minton from just the assault that Scientology was enacting upon Mr. Minton. And she thought that it would be a good idea for Mr. Minton to cooperate with Mr. Rinder, with Mr. Rosen,  whatever they wanted, to get him extricated from the Scientology assault.

Q  Did Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks tell you that —

Well, you said they — let me go back.

0569

You said something about Scientology gave Mr. Minton a stack of papers about what he needed to say against me?

A  Yes.

Q  What —

A  Or possible things to go into. And that’s the stuff that came from the Adams Mark Hotel, after we had the meeting, after I went to see him again, after he lied the first time on the stand.

MR. WEINBERG: Well, objection.

A  And —

MR. WEINBERG: If this is —

THE COURT: Wait a minute.

MR. WEINBERG: If this is the same stack that Mr. Prince testified yesterday that he never looked at —

THE COURT: Right.

MR. WEINBERG: — so how’s he going to answer questions about what was in the stack?

THE COURT: He’s not answering questions about what was in the stack. He’s talking about what  Mr. Minton told him. That’s all he’s supposed to  testify about.

MR. DANDAR: That’s what he’s doing.

MR. WEINBERG: Well —

0570

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  You didn’t look at the stack of papers, right?

A  No, I did not.

Q  So how do you know what was in the stack of papers?

A  ‘Cause he told me. There were five to six things in there that Scientology wanted him to do against you, and you specifically, and you only.

Q  Okay.

A  And two of them were the check. You know, somehow saying that you caused him to perjure himself concerning the check. And then the meeting. These were two very important issues to —

You know, I can’t say that I fully understood it because I’m not a lawyer, but this was very important that they executed in that way.

Q  Okay. And let’s talk about the check, all right?

A  Okay.

Q  Did Mr. Minton ever tell you that — after he met with Scientology, did he ever tell you that the check was from him; that May, $2,000 (sic) check for $500,000?

A  At that time he did.

Q  All right. Did you have any conversation with him as to why he told you something different on the roof of the parking lot across from the Lisa McPherson Trust office?

0571

MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Asked and answered. He talked about that yesterday.

THE COURT: I think he did.

MR. DANDAR: Did he?

THE COURT: Yeah, I believe he did.

MR. DANDAR: All right. Okay.

THE COURT: Do you remember — sometimes one day bleeds into the next. I do know he talked about being on the roof of the parking lot, and I do know he talked about Mr. Minton telling him something different. Did he — Did you discuss yesterday with us why Mr. Minton said he was telling a different story now? I don’t remember.

THE WITNESS: Well, yes, your Honor. Your recall is actually quite correct. Because you yourself asked me, “Well, what did they say,” when I  brought up the fact that we had been on the roof. And he had told us this whole different story. And you asked me, “Well, what did they say,” and I said that, “They just looked at me stupidly.” But of course —

THE COURT: So is the answer then he really didn’t say anything about this difference —

THE WITNESS: Right.

0572

THE COURT: — that you’re telling that —

MR. WEINBERG: Changed the subject.

THE COURT: Changed the subject.

THE WITNESS: Right.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Did you ever talk to him again about the check, or was that the last time?

A  I think that is the last time I spoke to him about the check.

Q  Okay. Did you have any other conversations with Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks about trying to get you to lie and go down the road with him, as you say?

A  Well, I had continuing conversations with them after negotiate — after they had the negotiations in New York and then began the negotiations — continued the negotiations in Clearwater.

MR. WEINBERG: Well, my objection, your Honor, is he went over all this yesterday.

MR. DANDAR: Right.

MR. WEINBERG: I mean, now we’re going back and we’re going to go repeat what happened yesterday.

THE COURT: That’s true. I think we really were, yesterday, up to the point of this forward meeting.

0573

MR. DANDAR: That’s right.

THE COURT: Although frankly, you never did discuss the meeting where there was a discussion to have Mr. Miscavige added. And I think he’s done that now.

MR. DANDAR: Yes, he has.

THE COURT: Right. And — and that was the second thing. And I — I think now you’ve explained that. So you can go — I shouldn’t say you — Mr. Prince can explain what.

THE WITNESS: There was something I left off about Mr. Miscavige — adding Miscavige as well, in the discussions that I had with Mrs. Brooks and Mr. —

THE COURT: Oh, yeah. I don’t believe he’s ever discussed with us what his discussions with Mr. Minton were about that.

THE WITNESS: Right.

THE COURT: So you might want to.

MR. DANDAR: Oh.

THE WITNESS: Right.

MR. DANDAR: Okay. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: As you well know, and certainly Mr. Weinberg well knows, we all sat before Judge Moody forever on this issue of adding David

0574

Miscavige as a party. We discussed this back and forth.

MR. WEINBERG: “We” being —

THE WITNESS: The judge said a key question to be asked was, is was that anything I wanted to have happen? The answer is no. I was not in favor of  adding David Miscavige. I thought it would drag  down the lawsuit and just be cumbersome.

THE COURT: That’s you. You were not in favor of adding him.

THE WITNESS: Right.

But in discussions about this, it was decided to do it anyway, and it was decided because this is  what Ms. Liebreich wanted to do. But we discussed this. And my — my thing with Mr. Minton as we were  talking about this when they were trying to get me to do this, is when the record is so obvious why and how that happened, why are you now trying to say it’s just all Ken’s fault, when Mrs. Brooks was the one that was really wanting this to happen; wanting to add Miscavige? So we talked about that.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Okay.

0575

THE COURT: And what did he say?

MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Talked about it when, then?

So now it’s Ms. Brooks or Ms. Liebreich that wanted this to happen. I mean, I —

THE COURT: No. No. I understand this. Wait till you get the transcript.

MR. WEINBERG: I’m sorry.

THE COURT: It’ll be very clear to you. Don’t  get all flustered.

MR. WEINBERG: I’m not flustered.

THE COURT: Yes, you are.

MR. WEINBERG: I’m hungry.

THE COURT: I’m hungry too. We’re going to stop at 12:30. Did you say you were hungry?

MR. DANDAR: That’s what he said.

MR. WEINBERG: That’s what I said.

MR. DANDAR: That’s a new objection.

THE COURT: Just so we see if the testimony’s consistent —

At this meeting, Jesse Prince was not in favor of adding Mr. Miscavige; Stacy Brooks really wanted to add David Miscavige. What about Dr. Garko?

THE WITNESS: Dr. Garko was hesitant about it.

And —

0576

THE COURT: Okay.

THE WITNESS: And Mr. Minton didn’t care one way or the other. I mean —

THE COURT: I thought Mr. Minton wasn’t there.

THE WITNESS: You know, later, when we discussed it, when, you know, Stacy — we went to the office. And Stacy says, “Well, I think, we’re  going to do this,” and he’s, like, “Yeah, okay. So what?” Because Mr. Minton always — you know, he was concerned about what he was doing. Mr. Minton  wasn’t concerned with what Mr. Dandar was doing  or — or what Mr. Prince was doing or Mr. Brooks  (sic). He had his own agenda. When he came down  to — here in Florida, he would be more concerned  about what he was doing.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Well, was there a meeting with Mr. Minton?

A  No.

Q  Well, what are you talking about when you said Minton — Mr. Minton didn’t care?

A  I recall Stacy Brooks and myself having a conversation with Mr. Minton, mentioning the fact that we were doing this.

Q  Oh, okay. Was I there, or Dr. Garko?

A  No.

0577

Q  All right.

A  No. And he’s like, “Okay. Where do you guys want to eat,” type of thing. You know, he just didn’t care.

“Okay.” You know, that’s — “Ken –” “Whatever.”

Q  Did Mr. Minton ever tell you he had an agenda?

MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, could we date that meeting?

MR. DANDAR: Yeah. Let’s date the meeting.

MR. WEINBERG: And where it was?

MR. DANDAR: Yeah.

THE WITNESS: When Stacy and I discussed it, I think it was probably — some — maybe a week or sometime prior to the fifth amended complaint actually being filed —

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  Well —

A  — we discussed it.

Q  — there were several times that the fifth amended complaint —

MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor —

A  Well, okay. To answer the question, no, I don’t know when it was. I just know —

THE COURT: No. I think —

MR. WEINBERG: My objection was Mr. Dandar prompting him.

0578

THE COURT: No, he wasn’t prompting him.

There were several fifth amended complaints. I would like to know.

Was it the fifth amended complaint where Mashburn (sic) and — Rathbun — all those other people were added or was it the fifth amended  complaint that’s now the complaint?

THE WITNESS: Your Honor — I don’t —

THE COURT: Or do you know?

THE WITNESS: I don’t have a clear recollection of which —

THE COURT: Was this a discussion where it was decided to add Mr. Miscavige as, I guess, chairman of the board of RTC — I don’t know how — I’ve never seen that complaint — or was it before the discussion to add Mr.

Miscavige as head of the Sea Org?

THE WITNESS: I think it was after the discussion to add — after it had been resolved that Mr. Miscavige could be added as head of the Sea Org.

You know —

THE COURT: After it was resolved by whom? By Judge Moody?

THE WITNESS: Yes. By Judge Moody.

THE COURT: Then you had a discussion with

0579

Mr. Minton about this?

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I believe he, Stacy and I were in the car, traveling, and we talked about it.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. DANDAR:

Q  So it was after the hearing we had, you said took forever, with Judge Moody?

A  I know that it became a serious possibility after we exhausted, in front of Judge Moody, every way of whether or not it would be correct or appropriate or even allowed to do it; coming in as head of the Sea Org, when Judge Moody said that it could — that he could be added as head of the Sea Org, not as COB because of that agreement.

Q  Right.

A  Which, you know, I didn’t even know about until after the fact.

MR. DANDAR: All right. Okay. Probably a good time to break for lunch, unless you have a question, Judge.

THE COURT: I think it’s a good time to break for lunch. We’ll be in recess — you know, an hour just isn’t enough. I need to make some phone calls and sign some things. We’re going to break until quarter till 2.
Court’s in recess.

MR. WEINBERG: And the same instructions to

0580

Mr. Prince.

THE COURT: Same instruction.

(A recess was taken at 12:29 p.m.)

0581

REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF FLORIDA  )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )

I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.

I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties’ attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action.

WITNESS my hand and official seal this 9th day of July, 2002.

______________________________
DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR

Notes